Last Crusade

[Raiders112390]

While I am eagerly anticipating ''IV'', I noticed some things about the Last Crusade. It's of a different tone than than RotLA and ToD and I'm not talking about the humor. It lacks the comic book feel and intense action of the first two. Sure, it has plenty of action-y scenes: The tank, the plane chase, the escape from the castle, the car ride, but all of those scenes lack the intensity of the first two and don't really require a lot of physical work on Harrison's part when compared to the other two. There are no big fist fights. Sure, Indy punches a few guys and whatnot, but, it just has a different feel. Perhaps because it was made so much later, perhaps because Harrison was older. I don't know, because he did star in films which had more physical action after that. It replaces the darkness of ToD with slapstick comedy and the grittiness of Raiders with a personal story. I'm not saying it's a bad film, but it's...a lot different than the first two. A lot of people see a big difference between Raiders and ToD, whereas the only difference I see is the surroundings (meaning the lack of Nazis, Brody etc) and the darker feeling. But both ToD and Raiders were fun, just careless adventure films. Last Crusade is something different.

[ClintonHammond]

"It lacks the comic book feel "

To me, it feels like a cartoon, or a parody.

[René Belloq]

But the thing is Last Crusade at times reaches greatness that the others don't, such as the moving finale.

[DarthLowBudget]

Yeah, the first two almost set up who Indy is, and the third delves into why he is the way he is.

[Dr.Sartorius]

I think Spielberg and Lucas made a conscious effort to tone down the action aspect of Indiana Jones that played a major role in Raiders. I think they wanted the movie to focus more on Indy and his father's relationship. It was more of a character piece.

I always wondered why LC received a PG-13 rating. It could have something to do with that rolling head that was decapitated by the razor blades in the Grail temple. :dead:

[Finn]

I always wondered why LC received a PG-13 rating. It could have something to do with that rolling head that was decapitated by the razor blades in the Grail temple. :dead: Or Donovan's death.

ToD was already PG-13 (heck, they made up that rating just for ToD), so I guess there was really no need to go the other way with LC.

[DarthLowBudget]

Actually, Temple of Doom is actually rated PG. PG-13 was created in reaction the the uproar surrounding ToD's PG rating. The first movie released as a PG-13 was actually Red Dawn.

[René Belloq]

Actually, Temple of Doom is actually rated PG. PG-13 was created in reaction the the uproar surrounding ToD's PG rating. The first movie released as a PG-13 was actually Red Dawn.

All right now, enough with the technicalities.

[ClintonHammond]

"Last Crusade at times reaches greatness"

Not at any time I've seen

[René Belloq]

Don't you at least like the music, or are you also jealous of that?

[ClintonHammond]

Not jealous in the least.... most of the music I'd heard before, in the previous 2 movies... or at least it was similar enough to what we'd already heard that it was mostly unremarkable. It sure didn't move me like the soundtrack from movies such as Conan The Barbarian, Blade Runner, or Gladiator. (At least it wasn't half as tiresome as the Lord Of The Rings soundtracks....)

The Lions Head Bridge was a fantastic special effect. The rest of the movie, as I've said seems, cartoony... almost a send-up... as if it was more a parody of an Indy movie, rather than being an Indy movie.

You mentioned The Finale... They rode off into the sunset in what is one of the most hackneyed, cliché movie images ever, after some lame jokes and slapstick that honestly felt more like the wrap-up of an original-series Star Trek episode... All that was missing was Captain Kirk, laughing to himself in the centre seat.

[Katarn07]

The Lions Head Bridge was a fantastic special effect. The rest of the movie, as I've said seems, cartoony... almost a send-up... as if it was more a parody of an Indy movie, rather than being an Indy movie.

OK, we get it, you don't like LC. You don't have to say it in every topic. I don't even know why everyone argues with you. It's just an opinion you have and I for one respect others opinions especially about such trivial things on what a good movie is. No one's gonna persuade you otherwise, so don't even argue.

I disagree with this original topic. I think RotLA and LC are more similar to one another than ToD is to RotLA. There's a lot of stuff in ToD that's different from the other two than just Nazis and Marcus. Shorty, the college being shown, Christian artifacts vs occult, the personal story Indy has (Indy and his estranged relationships between both Marion and his father vs Indy hooking up with some night club babe and having some Chinese orphan tag along for the ride), and then the similarities you pointed out with the Nazis and returning cast members.

[Benudo]

Actually, Temple of Doom is actually rated PG. PG-13 was created in reaction the the uproar surrounding ToD's PG rating. The first movie released as a PG-13 was actually Red Dawn.

I think that if ToD came out today it would probably be rated R. Pulling a guy's beating heart out of his chest. Body parts and blood on statues. A live person being lowered into a fiery pit. Indy drinking blood and falling into a nightmare. A lot of movies have received R ratings for much less violence and imagery (e.g., "Last of the Mohicans").

If Raiders came out today, probably PG-13.

[ClintonHammond]

In terms of tone, and seriousness, Raiders and Temple are close.... The silliness of LC sticks out like a sore thumb....

Or a bruised little ego, eh Katarn?

[Dr.Sartorius]

The LOTR soundtracks are IMHO some of the best scores ever written for film.

[ClintonHammond]

That, and a buck-fifty will get you a small cup of bad coffee

[René Belloq]

I don't think John Williams or anyone else could have written a better score for Last Crusade. Sure he reuses the Indy theme but I’m pleased he did, as it helps tie the series together. The cue Belly of the Steel Beast is comparable in quality to the truck chase from Raiders. Even the music for the no ticket scene is classic, as it once again makes the scene better/funnier than it would have been without music. The score of Last Crusade doesn’t draw attention to itself, it just compliments the movie so well that I can’t give it any higher praise. :whip:

[Katarn07]

I don't think John Williams or anyone else could have written a better score for Last Crusade. Sure he reuses the Indy theme but I’m pleased he did, as it helps tie the series together. The cue Belly of the Steel Beast is comparable in quality to the truck chase from Raiders. Even the music for the no ticket scene is classic, as it once again makes the scene better/funnier than it would have been without music. The score of Last Crusade doesn’t draw attention to itself, it just compliments the movie so well that I can’t give it any higher praise. :whip:

Totally agree with the soundtrack being something new. It wasn't a copout like Attack of the Clones which just reused all the themes from the previous 4 movies and had that awesome love anthem. Too bad the actual love scenes sucked so badly that it was wasted....


I enjoy the LotR soundtracks, though don't actually own any of them nor have I heard them outside of the films. I know the third movie reused a lot of the music from the first two, but the second sounded different than the first to me.

[René Belloq]

The LotR soundtracks are also inspired works, right down to the Celtic overtones in the score. Howard Shore was the perfect choice to write the music for these wonderful fantasy movies.

[ClintonHammond]

"Flaming Red Hair" is the only even vaguely interesting track on the LOTR soundtracks.... The rest is tripe.

[René Belloq]

"Flaming Red Hair" is the only even vaguely interesting track on the LOTR soundtracks.... The rest is tripe.

Perhaps that's why the LOTR soundtracks won Best Original Score on two occasions.

[ClintonHammond]

Yer gonna try to tell me "The Academy" is your barometer for what's good or not?

I'm afraid their track record stands against them

[Fish1941]

Basically, I have nothing against LAST CRUSADE. It's still a top-notch movie and it boasts probably the funniest scene in the entire INDIANA JONES saga. However, I do feel that it lacked the dark edge of both RAIDERS and TEMPLE OF DOOM - despite the scenes featuring Indy and Elsa's reunion in Berlin and Donovan's shooting of Jones Sr. Another thing about LC is that it doesn't seem that original in compare to the first two movies. With the exception of some changes like the introduction of Indy's dad and a morally ambiguous leading lady, it more or less seemed like a rehash of the first movie. I have noticed that this seemed to be the case with a lot of trilogies - including the STAR WARS Original Trilogy and the BACK TO THE FUTURE Trilogy. In the case of LORD OF THE RINGS, the third movie seemed like a rehash of the second film, but on a larger scale.

[ClintonHammond]

"I have nothing against LAST CRUSADE."

The Indy3 are still the best trilogy to date...

[Doc Savage]

The Indy3 are still the best trilogy to date...Amen and amen...

[Dr.Sartorius]

Yer gonna try to tell me "The Academy" is your barometer for what's good or not?

I'm afraid their track record stands against them

I don't care whether or not Howard Shore won some oscars for his work on LOTR. I loved the music for those movies before they were even nominated. The Two Towers wasn't even nominated for an oscar and that movie has some of the best music in the trilogy. :cool:

[René Belloq]

Yer gonna try to tell me "The Academy" is your barometer for what's good or not?

CH if you ever win an Oscar for best original score then I may share your sentiment.

[ClintonHammond]

And if you ever do, I still won't share yours

[Dr.Sartorius]

Two selfless martyrs. Jesus Christ.

[DarthLowBudget]

Totally agree with the soundtrack being something new. It wasn't a copout like Attack of the Clones which just reused all the themes from the previous 4 movies and had that awesome love anthem. Too bad the actual love scenes sucked so badly that it was wasted....


I enjoy the LotR soundtracks, though don't actually own any of them nor have I heard them outside of the films. I know the third movie reused a lot of the music from the first two, but the second sounded different than the first to me.

I wouldn't blame Attack of the Clones on Wiliams. They heavily re-edited the movie after he scored it, and didn't have time to drag him back in to rescore the movie before release, so Ben Burtt (hack that he is) simply edited a bunch of random audio cues from the other movies on to AOTC. Williams did manage to get in for a breif session to score the arena fight scenes, but the track never got used for the movie, and I think has only seen limited release on a few pressings of the AOTC soundtrack.

Blame Ben Burtt.

[René Belloq]

I couldn't blame Ben Burtt as he seems to be a nice guy. However I don’t think I could say that about John Williams.

[Fish1941]

"I have nothing against LAST CRUSADE."

The Indy3 are still the best trilogy to date...


In your opinion, you mean. And I don't agree.


I don't care whether or not Howard Shore won some oscars for his work on LOTR. I loved the music for those movies before they were even nominated. The Two Towers wasn't even nominated for an oscar and that movie has some of the best music in the trilogy.


Other than the theme for Rohan, I don't remember much about the music in LOTR: TTT. It wasn't that memorable to me.

As for AOTC, it also had a piece of original music . . . like TTT. Williams created the theme for the Anakin/Padme romance.

[Dr.Sartorius]

Other than the theme for Rohan, I don't remember much about the music in LOTR: TTT. It wasn't that memorable to me.

Well I remember most of the music from The Two Towers. There's the Rohan theme, Shadowfax's theme, the battle music for Helm's Deep, etc.

[ClintonHammond]

"And I don't agree."
And do you think I care if you agree? I hope not.

[Viper]

Not jealous in the least.... most of the music I'd heard before, in the previous 2 movies... or at least it was similar enough to what we'd already heard that it was mostly unremarkable. It sure didn't move me like the soundtrack from movies such as Conan The Barbarian, Blade Runner, or Gladiator. (At least it wasn't half as tiresome as the Lord Of The Rings soundtracks....)

The Lions Head Bridge was a fantastic special effect. The rest of the movie, as I've said seems, cartoony... almost a send-up... as if it was more a parody of an Indy movie, rather than being an Indy movie.

You mentioned The Finale... They rode off into the sunset in what is one of the most hackneyed, cliché movie images ever, after some lame jokes and slapstick that honestly felt more like the wrap-up of an original-series Star Trek episode... All that was missing was Captain Kirk, laughing to himself in the centre seat.
That finale wasn't the finale he was talking about. He was talking about when Indy falls off the ledge and his father calls him "Indiana" for the first time (rather than Junior). It even said that in the "Making Of"

[Fish1941]

"And I don't agree."
And do you think I care if you agree? I hope not.


Why would I care about how you feel? I was simply stating my opinion.

[ClintonHammond]

And that should make me weak-in-the-knees why?

[JK_Antwon]

Staying on topic, I agree that LC doesn't have as much adventure as the others, but that was the point kind of. alot of people hated how dark TOD was (although I don't why) so they made LC in a lighter tone, but to me, it was to light.

[The Adventurer]

Maybe it is a good thing that the tones are little diferent from movie to movie...see...there are diferent particularities of one adventure to another...every movie has it's beauty.

[torao]

I'm a big fan of pluralism. I love the expressions of different opinions on message boards.
I hate it if everybody's just kissing each other's ass amd agreeing on everything...trying to scotch any potential conflict.

It all depends on the tone, though.
It just seems impossible these days to wander around in the RAVEN without stumbling across these little dialogues that have that awkward childish pissing contest-quality to them.

Grow up, get a therapist...whatever...



On Last Crusade
After my alleged fiftysomethingth viewing of LC I started to understand the "too cartoonish" complaint more and more, I guess.
I still love it, though, with all my heart. I love what it adds to Indy's character (well...as I understand it for those who don't like LC that much it probably takes some of that away.), Ánd I find the action to be just as good as in the previous installments.
Moreso, I guess that, when I was just a little girl, this film introduced me to the rhythm of a scene and to great acting in general. (although you probably could extend that lesson over Raider and TOD as well..)

Background and possible explanation:
I first watched the three films within one week. It was not like I was 12 when I fell in love with Raiders and twenty to realize how not-as-edgy Crusade was. Which reminds me that I'll be 22 in 2008.....mmhhhh...so it better won't be as comic as that one:)

The thing that made Last Crusade that great for me, though, was how it really was about Indy's relationship to his father. I accept the complaint that the the way this relationship is handled and written lacks credibility and depth. But for me, it somehow worked. It seemed to be real in the action adventure context it was set in. I also think that amidst all the foolish moments there mostly exists that little feeling of sadness over the lack of their relationship. This and many other scenes for me are not just comic but very serious and contain some sorts of truth.

Still I'd also describe LC as the most easily accessible film of the three and thus it is the first Indy film I use to show to "outsiders"...

________
btw_I'm deeply sorry for all spelling and grammar mistakes I've commited in the past and eventually will commit in the future. ...and those in this post. I think there are plenty of them.