Raiders is darker than Temple of Doom

[oki9Sedo]

Raiders has a more serious tone than Temple of Doom. Doom had lots of banter and knockabout comedy, whereas Raiders had a very sinister tone throughout.

[ClintonHammond]

*Shrug*

Disagree... cause the people who MADE both say that Temple is darker... and there are many other reasons too....

[Skipper]

I totally agree with the original poster. Sure, TOD has lots of scary elements, but Raiders is a much more serious movie. TOD overall has a more light-hearted tone.

[René Belloq]

George said it himself about Temple of Doom that it's the darkest in the trilogy. It's like the dark side in Empire Strikes Back, the dark sequel of the trilogy. There's not that much light from all that dark. So listen to George, Temple is the most dark, darkest and the darker of the Indy movies. :dead:

Turn the brightness up.

[JK_Antwon]

the over all tone of Raiders is serious, but the over all tone of TOD is scary. as stated before, this is not just the opion of the fans, but also the creators.

Raiders did have alot of thrilling moments, but nothing "scary" like a heart being ripped out of your chest... man that creaps me out now just remembering it.

althought the ghost are pretty scary at the end of Raiders.

[DarthLowBudget]

Yeah, serious tone does not equal "dark". Temple is by far darker than Raiders. There is such a thing as a dark movie with comedic elemants.

[Violet Indy]

Well, there's more fantasy in Temple of Doom than Raiders, and from that point of view, Raiders is more serious and maybe darker, though I personally don't think so. ToD is really a romp through hell and back, Raiders isn't.

[The Adventurer]

Temple Of Doom is darker than Raiders...only if you think at human sacrifices... The humoristic part is something else...

[fedoraboy]

Raiders felt like a more 'grown up' movie than temple. I think the introduction of Short Round, having a Maharaja who's a kid, eating bugs etc made Doom feel like more of a kid's film. I loved it when I was 10, but it's my least favourite now.

That said, Doom is 'darker' in tone, in that it deals with scarier subject matter - although the climax of Raiders is the eeriest in the series.

[oki9Sedo]

Personally the ghosts at the end of Raiders causing Toht's face to melt and Belloq's head to explode, and the rapid ageing scene in Last Crusade freaked me out alot more than the heart removal stuff in Temple of Doom.

My original point was ToD was dark in an over-the-top, silly, fantasy kind of way. Raiders on the other hand, was scary in a more realistic way. It made it more believable that the Ark's powers are real.

[Skipper]

The fact that Lucas and Spielberg say TOD is darker doesn't make it true. Raiders is clearly a more serious movie, and TOD is more of a fun adventure.

[JK_Antwon]

Granted I was a kid when I saw the movies for the first time, but that impression still sits with me. and as a kid "God" was more fantasy than an evil cult. Now being older I can see the "realism" people refer to in ROTA and LC, but really religion aside, you can look at it all as being truly “fantasy”.

and all the metioned "kid things" I think was really intended to make the movie lighter. I think having "a Maharaja who's a kid" is funny because Willy is just sooo into him, and then he's a kid. and I would freak out over those bugs.

[oki9Sedo]

The fact that Lucas and Spielberg say TOD is darker doesn't make it true. Raiders is clearly a more serious movie, and TOD is more of a fun adventure.

Exactly. It maintains a sinister tone throughout.

[ElodieJones]

For me too Raiders is more serious.
With the Nazi, and Ark of the Covenent.
More real story.

And I was more affraid by the end of Raiders than Temple.

[TennesseBuck]

RAIDERS is a fun movie, and so is TEMPLE. TEMPLE, though, is clearly darker because it is a rougher and more dangerous adventure for Indy. Indy witnesses a human sacrifice, is whipped repeatedly, turns evil and smacks Short Round, suffers more cuts and bruises (though he isn't shot in the arm as in RAIDERS)...yep, it is a darker film considering that middle section and certainly more violent.

[The Adventurer]

I'm sorry abaut not having a poll at this thread...

[surfengine]

If you notice, the first 1 hour and 1 minute of TOD is nearly all comedy.
I even consider much of the nightclub scene to be near slap-stick level.

After that point, however, it becomes much more serious and "dark".
Also, at that point, the movie becomes much more enoyable.

[fedoraboy]

If you notice, the first 1 hour and 1 minute of TOD is nearly all comedy.
I even consider much of the nightclub scene to be near slap-stick level.

After that point, however, it becomes much more serious and "dark".
Also, at that point, the movie becomes much more enoyable.

Indy's arrival at the Indian village, learning that the kids have been stolen, the old women crying and pawing at Shorty is all pretty dark stuff (possibly the darkest, in that it depicts realistic human suffering) and occurs well within the first hour...

[Baron Brunwald]

I'm with the creators on this one, ToD is darker.

Everyone else has already backed that statement for me.

[Crazy-Heart]

I totally agree with the original poster. Sure, TOD has lots of scary elements, but Raiders is a much more serious movie. TOD overall has a more light-hearted tone.
I agree, besides at the Raiders we're talking about one of the most significant pieces in history!

[gear guardian]

I think ToD is darker because it has evil Thugee guards inslaving children. But raiders aint no picknick either.

[oki9Sedo]

Yes, but ToD was much less grounded in reality than Raiders. Thats the main reason I think its darker-slave children, ripping out hearts etc etc, yes fine but it still feels like a fantasy film. Raiders feels much more real and so the dark moments are, well, darker IMO.

[gear guardian]

hmm... o.k.... I guess. :confused:

[Shortie]

Temple is way more darker than Raiders! People's hearts get ripped out!!! People get thrown into a firy pit that looks like a hole to hell! Indy & his kid sidekick get whipped! Little children are forced to be slaves!

The worst of all....the chicken in the plane die!!! :0!!!
;)

Raiders just had a bunch of Nazis, though they melt & explode. Everyone knows Nazis are wimps.:whip:

[gear guardian]

Ya I think all the Indy movies [I]do[I]have different personalities. But I think I'd say ToD is darker. BUT! I think that if you think about it he's right, Raiders is more sirius, and to think of all that lies in the balance between Indy and the Nazis it is pretty scary. :gun:

[Shortie]

Raiders is the most serious, but that dosen't mean it's dark. Spider-Man 2 was serious & it isn't considered dark.

[gear guardian]

But im saying in real life it would be pretty dark becuase with the ark the Nazi's would rule the world. That's pretty sinister. Everyone who doesn't fit in with their Arian way of life would be killed or enslaved... :dead:

[berelain19]

Yes, but ToD was much less grounded in reality than Raiders. Thats the main reason I think its darker-slave children, ripping out hearts etc etc, yes fine but it still feels like a fantasy film. Raiders feels much more real and so the dark moments are, well, darker IMO.


I think you mix up reality and ''dark''...Reality can be very dark,as well as a fantasy story.
A ''dark'' story is a story that is emotionally very heavy and somewhat unpleasant.
In Temple of Doom,besides all the exemples that have already been given,I think the music and the chanting contributes a great part to the ''darkness''.The redness,the blood,the fire/candlelight,too.

In my opinion,the moment when they enter the village untill the moment when Indy gets burned out of his posessed state of mind,is very boring. Exept for the dinner and bugs scenes.

Raiders may have a supernatural taste to it,it's still an adventure/slapstick.
A saturday-afternoon serial flick!

[Matinee Idyll]

It's the juxtaposition of the comedy and horror that works so well in ToD.

[Indy1986]

well actually i really like they way temple fo doom was it was funny but dark at the same time....it was like a horror movie at one point but it was not disgusting it was entertaining and it was scary....but still funny
i would like the idea of having indy also a bit darker like tmple of doom

[arkfinder]

"Temple" is more violent.

[IndySeven]

No way! Temple of Doom is way darker than Raiders. George Lucas himself said that the Temple of Doom movie was the darkest. Here's a comparison of the two worst scenes in the movies:

Raiders: Toht, Belloq, and the Nazi soldiers are disfigured and melted.

Temple of Doom: People's hearts being pulled out and Indy drinking the blood of the Kali Ma.

Its clear to see that the Temple of Doom is way darker than Raiders.

[Indy1986]

Temple is definitely the darkest and most violent part.

[Bullwhip]

And yet Doom has a happy ending while Raiders' is ambiguous at best.

[Indy1986]

Raiders has the best ending....really mysterious

[Vendetta08]

Raiders has a more serious tone than Temple of Doom. Doom had lots of banter and knockabout comedy, whereas Raiders had a very sinister tone throughout.

Just because Raiders was more serious doesn't mean it was darker.

[Bullwhip]

Seems like splitting hairs. What does "darker" mean to you?

[gear guardian]

All of the Indy movies have a "dark" side. There's always the posibility that Indy could die-painfully and that someone he cares about could die-painfully and someone always dies-painfully. :) Although I think Temple of Doom shows its dark side more openly. But I think that Temple needed to be as dark as it was because it sort of balanced ou the series. It's all good. Their all very good movies

[Vendetta08]

Seems like splitting hairs. What does "darker" mean to you?

Fiery pits, voodoo tribes who rip hearts out, the sacrifice of the unwanted, and just the atmosphere of the temple itself; nothing but colors of reds and blacks.

[oki9Sedo]

I still think that Raiders was darker. Yes, it doesn't have cults and child slavery etc, but there's a genuine sense of menace throughout that film, whereas Doom felt more outland-ish.

[Henry Jones Junior]

I believe Temple of Doom is darker. There's sacrifice, child abuse and more violent images.

[oki9Sedo]

I believe Temple of Doom is darker. There's sacrifice, child abuse and more violent images.

I know this thread is old, but I'd like to keep the discussion going.

Yes, Temple of Doom has child slavery and voodoo rituals, but an upbeat and positive tone is maintained throughout the film. In Raiders, there's a genuine sense of menace thats sustained throughout.

[oki9Sedo]

I like this thread so I want to keep it going.

Raiders is serious and ominous throughout, whereas, despite its darker story, Temple of Doom is fun, light-hearted and slapstick right throughout.

[CaliforniaJones]

I think you could consider Temple a darker film, because most of it takes place in a cave. But Raiders is far more serious, realistic, menacing, all those things. Temple has always been a joke to me. I like and watch it because it's Indy, and it's entertaining. But Raiders has better, more adult themes. It takes itself seriously. Temple is like a parody of itself.

[oki9Sedo]

I think you could consider Temple a darker film, because most of it takes place in a cave. But Raiders is far more serious, realistic, menacing, all those things. Temple has always been a joke to me. I like and watch it because it's Indy, and it's entertaining. But Raiders has better, more adult themes. It takes itself seriously. Temple is like a parody of itself.

Thats exactly my point. Raiders is more serious, more ominous, more gritty and realistic, more adult (the whole Indy having sex with Marion when she was a student thing), whereas Temple of Doom is a fun ride throughout. It has a really happy ending too, unlike Raiders.

[herr gruber]

Raiders has probably the most slapstick scene of the series! Marion spinning the mirror over!

[CaliforniaJones]

There is definitely some great humor in Raiders. It just takes itself more seriousley.

[oki9Sedo]

There is definitely some great humor in Raiders. It just takes itself more seriousley.

Yes, but most of the humour is very dry, sarcastic humour ("Snakes....why'd it have to be snakes?", "I don't know, I'm making this up as I go." etc).

[CaliforniaJones]

Plus in Temple you have Willie and Short-round always screaming and wailing. SHUT UP!!!!!! Makes it seem cheesy.

[herr gruber]

There is nothing darker than child brutality/slavery...

[CaliforniaJones]

There is nothing darker than child brutality/slavery...So fascist government/armies that invade and occupy other countries, and systematically attempt to destroy entire ethnic groups and other groups of people are not as dark or darker? Sorry for the run-on sentence. Nazi's = ultimate bad guys. Why? Because they were real. I know the Thuggee were an actual group, but I'm sorry, they just aren't as scary as the Nazi's. Communists aren't even that scary.

[herr gruber]

The Nazis in Raiders are just as cartoony as the Thugees. We don't see the Raiders Nazis persecuting Jews. We DO see the Thuggee persecuting children. I'm talking movies here, are you?...

[CaliforniaJones]

You're missing the point. The filmakers assume you know what the Nazi's are. It only works if you buy the fact that if the Nazi's get the Ark, they will take over the world and cause unthinkable death and destruction. Sorry, the Thuggees are just not as scary.

[herr gruber]

I refer the gentleman to my above comment.

[blueseattle]

Personally the ghosts at the end of Raiders causing Toht's face to melt and Belloq's head to explode, and the rapid ageing scene in Last Crusade freaked me out alot more than the heart removal stuff in Temple of Doom.

My original point was ToD was dark in an over-the-top, silly, fantasy kind of way. Raiders on the other hand, was scary in a more realistic way. It made it more believable that the Ark's powers are real.


I agree. The tone of Raiders is very climatic and apocalyptic in a way. Temple's score is also lighter in some ways.

[Deckard]

I refer the gentleman to my above comment.

So im a bit confused. Your saying bcuz in the movies, theres not actualy mass genocide being shown that the nazis weren't doing it? If the Nazis had the Ark, they'd lay waist to the world. And its just more feasable the Nazis destroying the world then the Thugee cult. Theres like what 100 thugees? and they have to get you one at a time with that drink of Kali. The British crapped on them no problem. The Nazis on the other hand have countless numbers and were trying to basicaly raze entire countries not turn people to there beliefs. Nazis are the more threatening baddies plain and simple.

Temple has a darker tone bcuz it actually physicaly shows more violence happening on camera but Raiders is more desperate a situation.

[blueseattle]

I think you could consider Temple a darker film, because most of it takes place in a cave. But Raiders is far more serious, realistic, menacing, all those things. Temple has always been a joke to me. I like and watch it because it's Indy, and it's entertaining. But Raiders has better, more adult themes. It takes itself seriously. Temple is like a parody of itself.

Ditto. I mean, "MOLA RAM! PREPARE TO MEET KALI... IN HELL!"

It's the most quotable of any Indy film and with good reason. It takes the best parts of B-films and just goes with it to the end.

[herr gruber]

Let's not forget the PG-13 rating was created from our dark, dark Temple.

[CaliforniaJones]

Let's not forget the PG-13 rating was created from our dark, dark Temple.
For what? Eating chilled monkey brains and the flaming heart? Graphic? Perhaps. Scary or realistic? Not really.

[herr gruber]

Yet undeniably darker than anything PG audiences had seen before... As for the realism aspect - this is not Schindler's List! California, put your hand on your heart (no pun intended) and tell me that children being brutalised is not the darker scenario. I'm talking about the events that take place during the films running time - not the long term implications of plot.

[oki9Sedo]

There is nothing darker than child brutality/slavery...

Indeed, but it was handled in a cartoony way.

[CaliforniaJones]

Yet undeniably darker than anything PG audiences had seen before... As for the realism aspect - this is not Schindler's List! California, put your hand on your heart (no pun intended) and tell me that children being brutalised is not the darker scenario. I'm talking about the events that take place during the films running time - not the long term implications of plot.
Sorry. Even when I saw it as a kid, it just didn't bother me. Maybe it was the fact that the child actors weren't the greatest. The whole thing just wasn't scary or dark to me. The bad guys are a bunch of dudes in a cave, with swords and bows and arrows. They were looking for stones that nobody's ever even heard of, with powers that vague at best. In Raiders, you had the Nazi army, who even as a kid scared me more than the Thuggee. I mean they were millions of them, and they had lots of guns, and airplanes, and tanks. And they're looking for the ark of the covenant, which is held to be a real object, that a lot of people know about. The powers, and the danger of the Nazi's getting the ark are spoken about. Is Temple more graphic, in some ways maybe. But as has been stated before, it's in a cartoonish way. And there is no way to judge a movie's "mood" or "tone" just by what is on the screen. Everybody views a movie based on their own knowledge and emotions coming in to it. That's why everyone has their own opinions. That's why some people love Temple, and think it is scary, and the best Indy movie. But I think there are alot more who like it and watch it because it is Indy, but do not rank it as high as the other two.

[oki9Sedo]

Raiders is as violent as Temple of Doom.

It doesn't have the heart-ripping, but it has a guy impaled on a booby trap spikey thing, blood spattering when the mechanic chopped up in a propeller, an succesion of melting and exploding heads.

And thats all handled in a more realistic manner than the hear-ripping, where there's no blood or anything.

[Deckard]

Raiders is as violent as Temple of Doom.

It doesn't have the heart-ripping, but it has a guy impaled on a booby trap spikey thing, blood spattering when the mechanic chopped up in a propeller, an succesion of melting and exploding heads.

And thats all handled in a more realistic manner than the hear-ripping, where there's no blood or anything.

Are you kidding, Belloq Explodes. Toht and Dietrech's faces melt. The guy in the bar catches fire, gets shot in the head. Satipo gets a spike thru the face. A guy is run over. Fire and Lightning shoot thru peoples eyes and faces. People are burning and being sucked up into the sky. LoL Even reading this now im just starting to realise how way more violent it is.

[herr gruber]

Actually, I now realise that Raiders IS a complete violence - fest! I wonder why it didn't upset the censors as much as Temple? It must have been the child slavery in TOD that offended them so. An exploding head is just as graphic as a heart being removed, if not more so. I still say Temple is darker due to the slavery themes but Raiders is a total shocker. Last Crusade seems like a Disney version of the saga.

[oki9Sedo]

Are you kidding, Belloq Explodes. Toht and Dietrech's faces melt. The guy in the bar catches fire, gets shot in the head. Satipo gets a spike thru the face. A guy is run over. Fire and Lightning shoot thru peoples eyes and faces. People are burning and being sucked up into the sky. LoL Even reading this now im just starting to realise how way more violent it is.

You must have misread my post....I was arguing that Raiders is at least as violent as Temple of Doom, if not more so, just like you.

[CaliforniaJones]

I think he was just reiterating.:up:

[oki9Sedo]

I think he was just reiterating.:up:

But he said "Are you kidding?" to me.

[oki9Sedo]

Actually, I now realise that Raiders IS a complete violence - fest! I wonder why it didn't upset the censors as much as Temple? It must have been the child slavery in TOD that offended them so. An exploding head is just as graphic as a heart being removed, if not more so. I still say Temple is darker due to the slavery themes but Raiders is a total shocker. Last Crusade seems like a Disney version of the saga.

Raiders scared me more when I was small for sure. Nastier violence throughout, the more serious tone, bigger scares (the skeletons in the Well of Souls and Marion's scream are scarier than ANYTHING in Temple of Doom).

The only thing people have on Temple of Doom is the child slavery, but for goodness sake none of the kids get seriously hurt, we see them ALL arriving back home at the village alive and well.

[Deckard]

But he said "Are you kidding?" to me.

hey, I was just comparing it all to the heart scene in temple. Thats why i said that. I just watched TOD last night and the heart scene is lightly done IMO. He reaches into his chest but its clean and the wound closes quickly. Its no worse then Wolverine getting hurt in X-Men w/ the way they both heal. Then i just started listing all the other stuff, i wasnt attacking anyone tho.

[Ignatius Stone]

Yeah, I also think Raiders is darker in tone overall than TOD. Although TOD had some pretty scary moments and dealt with things like human sacrifice and child slavery, it still had a very lighthearted tone to it, whereas Raiders was inherently more serious. Raiders is still my favourite of the three.:)

[ReggieSnake]

This was a good thread!
I think it can all be summed up as follows:

In TEMPLE there is darkness that even for a while conquers Jones, but eventually Indy shines through and proves he is bigger than the darkness(frees the children, ends the Kali worship) and thing are treated lighter and less realistic for the most part.

In RAIDERS the darkness or power (in this case the ark), proves to be much bigger than Jones himself, and the film, though with its comedy like ToD, is more serious than ToD, and treats itself less lightly. The threat of the nazis is more real, and the power of the ark(well, God really) is more menacing/real, I think partially due to the music surrounding it.

[oki9Sedo]

This was a good thread!
I think it can all be summed up as follows:

In TEMPLE there is darkness that even for a while conquers Jones, but eventually Indy shines through and proves he is bigger than the darkness(frees the children, ends the Kali worship) and thing are treated lighter and less realistic for the most part.

In RAIDERS the darkness or power (in this case the ark), proves to be much bigger than Jones himself, and the film, though with its comedy like ToD, is more serious than ToD, and treats itself less lightly. The threat of the nazis is more real, and the power of the ark(well, God really) is more menacing/real, I think partially due to the music surrounding it.

Lets break it down:

Violence: more realistic and bloodier in Raiders
Comedy: mostly cynical one-liners and un-PC visual gags in Raiders, slapstick and banter in Temple of Doom
Horror: Marion being engulfed by skeletons/the Ark burning a hole in a crate/the Angel of Death in Raiders, skeletons scaring Willie/the heart-ripping in Temple of Doom
Villains: treated as a serious, genuine threat in Raiders, treated as comic book villains in Temple of Doom

I might add that none of the children in Temple of Doom are seriously harmed, and that its message is clearly that good triumphs over evil. Raiders ending is ominous and uncertain.

[WhipItGood]

To add one point: the heart-ripping of ToD *had* to be bloodless and self-healing in order to avoid an R-rating, for one thing. As Spielberg described the experience of the Temple: "it's like a bad fever dream." Making it an unreal nightmare versus straight-on violence and gore was the only way to keep it on-screen. Yet the sacrifical victim burned alive just as real as can be... that's pretty dark in my book. But in Raiders, you can't censor the power of God -- unless you add a curtain of fire to obscure the exploding head. :D

[oki9Sedo]

But in Raiders, you can't censor the power of God -- unless you add a curtain of fire to obscure the exploding head. :D

Fire curtain or not, that shot is still absolutely disgusting. You see chunks of pink meat flying everywhere.

To add one point: the heart-ripping of ToD *had* to be bloodless and self-healing in order to avoid an R-rating, for one thing. As Spielberg described the experience of the Temple: "it's like a bad fever dream." Making it an unreal nightmare versus straight-on violence and gore was the only way to keep it on-screen.

Here's the cut British version: http://youtube.com/watch?v=D9VtNBroFVE&feature=related

It doesn't have the shots of the hand tearing through the chest wall or the wound healing, and I think its better that way because those shots were excessively graphic.

The editing is a little awkward, but aside from that it works better.