Comparing Indiana Jones and Pirates of the Caribbean

[jonesissparrow]

If you think about it, today I was looking at a Disney Adventures comic about Jack and his crew searching for an invincible coat and battling a three headed serpent and I thought the series does resemble Indiana. Because if you think about both films have the hero looking ancient objects or treasures that is altogether mythic and mysterious. I also think it is Indy and Jack are no different from each other both are kind of like robbers, I mean Indy does get a reputation of being called a grave digger. Plus the bad guys of POTC resembles the bad guys of Indiana.

Davy Jones and crew like Mola Ram and the thuggees in Temple of Doom because Davy Jones have somewhat supernatural powers like Mola Ram does and both TOD and DMC contains a beating heart that are destroyed in different ways.

Beckett and the british navy is like the Nazis taking control everywhere they go.

Barbossa like Belloq because he is Jack's equal in intelligence.

Also in both third films the hero's father comes in. Both Sean Connery and Keith Richards were influences for the characters and so it is fitting they both appear as the hero's father. Both Jack and Indiana have a somewhat strained relationship with their Pop which seems to be reconciled in the end.

Little Indy references in POTC: In COTB, Elizabeth dresses up for Barbossa and dines with him and plans to escape using a knife like Marion does with Belloq, in DMC, Jack is pursued by cannibals and barely makes it to his ship like Indy when he is pursued by the natives, also in DMC, Elizabeth faces off Ragetti and Pintel without and she looks for one and when its not their she grins sheepishly like Indy does in TOD with his missing gun and the thuggees.

Plus there is a review of POTC on theraider.net that validates my point.:p

[Kernunnos]

There's no comparing Indiana Jones with POTC, which is a load of infantile, camp rubbish.

That's just my opinion of course. :hat:

[Jones Junkie]

Agreed. They're not really the same at all for me... Pirates just doesn't have that raw "feel" Indy has to it. It doesn't have an atmosphere/mood I enjoy as I do with the Indiana flicks. Plus it has Orlando Bloom, which speaks for itself. haha

[Niteshade007]

I really enjoy the Pirates films, so I can see what you are saying. You bring up some similarities that I hadn't noticed before (aside from the knife scene from Curse of the Black Pearl). To me, the Pirates trilogy is an example of good films that are made today. I know a lot of people trash the types of films that are made, but there a few that are a good quality of film, and Pirates is a shining example of that. At least in my mind, anyway.

[jonesissparrow]

I'm glad someone agrees with me.:) I try pursuing this argument on IMDB.com on both pirates and Indiana Jones boards, no one wanted to see the comparisons for they think POTC is junk. I really disagree I think in a matter of opinion that POTC is tad bit better than Star Wars as far as writing and I think POTC is equal to Indiana Jones. I think in later years the POTC trilogy will be treated kinder. I'm glad that theraider.net's Stephen Jared has been more than generous with these films as he reviewed it with praise only, example:

In present day Hollywood, where ambition rarely reaches beyond riches, any great passion for old-fashioned adventure has been frightened away. For the few filmmakers of the genre, video games have overpowered one hundred years of cinema as influence and inspiration. And so, the team of Disney, Bruckheimer, Verbinski, Elliott and Rossio, Depp and the entire cast, deserve enormous respect and admiration for having the courage to aim so high. Unlike the vast majority of disposable Hollywood product, these films will last.

Also I think Beckett reminds me of Donovan because both are greedy rich pigs who will stomp on anybody to get what they want. Both seek an enternal object (the holy grail/davy jones's heart) to become larger than life. Mercer, Beckett's assistant is both Toht and Vogel , they're all top agents for the enemy and are cruel and merciless. Sao Feng is much like Lao Che because both are big time criminals who double crosses the hero. I want to say to now that I think about it that Mr. Gibbs is like Marcus Brody and Sallah because both are wise and slightly bumbling men to Indiana/Jack.

[Niteshade007]

I have to say, I really liked Beckett's characterization. Which leads me to argue about the Donovan connection. To me, Donovan is a poor excuse for a "villain." Beckett was far more ruthless and powerful. And the scene at the end of At World's End was perfect. As his whole ship is going down in flames, he is stunned, even best laid plans can go to ruins in an instant. He was so close to owning the sea, and in a second, it was taken from him. Great, powerful scene. I don't any of the Indiana Jones villains really get a chance like that. Belloq's head is blown off, Mola Ram falls to his death, same goes for Elsa, and Donovan just rapidly ages. None of them can really see their errors before it's too late, which perhaps is what makes their death scenes a little less emotional and a little "well, you deserved it." Supernatural powers just instantly destroy them before they can really realize that what they are doing is wrong. Belloq, up until his death, even thinks it's "beautiful."

[sarah navarro]

im not really a big fan of POTC, and any movie can be compared to any other movie.Its kind of like saying Batman and Superman are similar,well they are but theyre just diffent.I dont know if anyone will get what im saying.


Indys way better than Jack Sparrow anyway:p

[jonesissparrow]

Excellent point, Niteshade, to tell you the truth I only watched Last Crusade once so I can say I thought the villians were good because in my eyes Donovan was so cocky and I hated him for being that and also he shot Henry!:mad: I also hated Beckett with all my heart and so was glad he got a good sendoff like he did. Your right the villians in Indiana Jones did not get a proper death scene like they should, but hey, at Toht had one.

[Kingsley]

Surely, from the trilogys we got in the last ten years, Pirates is easily beetween the 3 best in my opinion.
I can add Lord of the Rings... but not Matrix or Spiderman or weiß der Kuckuck was...

[jonesissparrow]

LOTR is one of the best trilogies ever along with pirates.

I want to show pictorial similarities between the two.
http://www.theraider.net/showimage.php?ImageUrl=http://www.theraider.net/films/raiders/gallery/dvdscreenshots/063.jpg
http://www.theraider.net/showimage.php?ImageUrl=http://www.theraider.net/films/raiders/gallery/dvdscreenshots/070.jpg
http://www.potc-web.net/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=5581&fullsize=1
http://www.theraider.net/showimage.php?ImageUrl=http://www.theraider.net/films/raiders/gallery/dvdscreenshots/239.jpg
http://www.potc-web.net/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=649&fullsize=1
I'll try to think up some more later

[sarah navarro]

no pictures showed up :(

[jonesissparrow]

I want to show pictorial similarities between the two.
http://www.theraider.net/showimage.php?ImageUrl=http://www.theraider.net/films/raiders/gallery/dvdscreenshots/063.jpg
http://www.theraider.net/showimage.php?ImageUrl=http://www.theraider.net/films/raiders/gallery/dvdscreenshots/070.jpg
http://www.potc-web.net/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=5581&fullsize=1
http://www.theraider.net/showimage.php?ImageUrl=http://www.theraider.net/films/raiders/gallery/dvdscreenshots/239.jpg
http://www.potc-web.net/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=649&fullsize=1I'll try to think up some more later

I hope this better

[kongisking]

I have to say, I really liked Beckett's characterization. Which leads me to argue about the Donovan connection. To me, Donovan is a poor excuse for a "villain." Beckett was far more ruthless and powerful. And the scene at the end of At World's End was perfect. As his whole ship is going down in flames, he is stunned, even best laid plans can go to ruins in an instant. He was so close to owning the sea, and in a second, it was taken from him. Great, powerful scene. I don't any of the Indiana Jones villains really get a chance like that. Belloq's head is blown off, Mola Ram falls to his death, same goes for Elsa, and Donovan just rapidly ages. None of them can really see their errors before it's too late, which perhaps is what makes their death scenes a little less emotional and a little "well, you deserved it." Supernatural powers just instantly destroy them before they can really realize that what they are doing is wrong. Belloq, up until his death, even thinks it's "beautiful."

You are absolutely correct, 007. Beckett's death scene is one of the most poetic and poignant in film history. The look on his face says it all. In fact, you nearly feel sorry for the guy: He's just doing his job and eliminating criminals. But that is still no excuse for murdering an 8-year-old boy. :mad: Beckett really is the Palpatine of our age: a ruthless and brilliant manipulator who rises to power and slowly begins to take over everything. Truly one of the greatest film villains of all time.

God bless you, Elliott and Rossio! :hat:

[ResidentAlien]

I have to say, I really liked Beckett's characterization. Which leads me to argue about the Donovan connection. To me, Donovan is a poor excuse for a "villain." Beckett was far more ruthless and powerful. And the scene at the end of At World's End was perfect. As his whole ship is going down in flames, he is stunned, even best laid plans can go to ruins in an instant. He was so close to owning the sea, and in a second, it was taken from him. Great, powerful scene. I don't any of the Indiana Jones villains really get a chance like that. Belloq's head is blown off, Mola Ram falls to his death, same goes for Elsa, and Donovan just rapidly ages. None of them can really see their errors before it's too late, which perhaps is what makes their death scenes a little less emotional and a little "well, you deserved it." Supernatural powers just instantly destroy them before they can really realize that what they are doing is wrong. Belloq, up until his death, even thinks it's "beautiful."

I'd argue Mola Ram's recognition. "You betrayed Shiva," Indy chants--Mola Ram's eyes seem to reflect a certain recognition in those brief seconds before the fall. Now of course that's debatable--but he sees the stones begin to flame and is not that proof to the fallacy of his beliefs? Does that not prove his rituals wrong?

[kongisking]

I'm glad someone agrees with me.:) I try pursuing this argument on IMDB.com on both pirates and Indiana Jones boards, no one wanted to see the comparisons for they think POTC is junk. I really disagree I think in a matter of opinion that POTC is tad bit better than Star Wars as far as writing and I think POTC is equal to Indiana Jones. I think in later years the POTC trilogy will be treated kinder. I'm glad that theraider.net's Stephen Jared has been more than generous with these films as he reviewed it with praise only, example:

In present day Hollywood, where ambition rarely reaches beyond riches, any great passion for old-fashioned adventure has been frightened away. For the few filmmakers of the genre, video games have overpowered one hundred years of cinema as influence and inspiration. And so, the team of Disney, Bruckheimer, Verbinski, Elliott and Rossio, Depp and the entire cast, deserve enormous respect and admiration for having the courage to aim so high. Unlike the vast majority of disposable Hollywood product, these films will last.

Also I think Beckett reminds me of Donovan because both are greedy rich pigs who will stomp on anybody to get what they want. Both seek an enternal object (the holy grail/davy jones's heart) to become larger than life. Mercer, Beckett's assistant is both Toht and Vogel , they're all top agents for the enemy and are cruel and merciless. Sao Feng is much like Lao Che because both are big time criminals who double crosses the hero. I want to say to now that I think about it that Mr. Gibbs is like Marcus Brody and Sallah because both are wise and slightly bumbling men to Indiana/Jack.

Your post perfectly summarises what is truly timeless about the POTC films and the nature of film critics nowadays. Despite whatever anyone says, the Pirates films are classics, and will someday be thought of just as fondly as we revere Indy and the works of Verne and Wells now. The film's complexity and rich amount of character arcs and twists give the movies infinite repeat-viewing value, as well as great characterization. I mean, look at Jack's face when he is torn between making himself immortal and saving Will's life. This scene is Jack's defining moment, when he must choose between selfishness and the life of a friend and fellow man. It's a very powerful scene which has a good message: No matter how bad or unlawful a person is, there is still a piece of honor and love beneath their flaws. Anyone is redeemable, which is the true theme of the trilogy (as well as the Star Wars OT). Even Sao Feng has a redemption of sorts, as well as Norrington's Shakespeare-esque noble sacrifice.

Indeed, Norrington is probably the most well drawn character in the trilogy. Throughout the films, he struggles with his duty and his moral ideals; when Elizabeth declares her love for Will, James gives them his poignant blessing, showing just how much he cares for Elizabeth deeply that he would sacrifice his happiness for hers. Honestly, try watching the trilogy again, and this time you might finally discover the rich depth and meaning of the characters and story; a true epic for our time as well as a real kick-ass adventure on the high-seas with hilarious comedy and real wit. And who can deny just how much cooler and more high-quality Davy Jones is then Vader? A timeless villain; a unique creation and a real work of mastership.

The complexity of the plot, betrayals, twists, and character arcs make for a series which dares to be complex, showing just how much balls the writers had. They wanted to make a worth-while story, and having a complicated story arc in this age of simple, childish blockbusters is a breath of much-much-much-needed fresh air.

Please consider my words above, and the trilogy another chance, please? ;) :hat:

[Indy's Fist]

I think the comparison comes from the high adventure, Campy story telling and exotic locals. In many ways Indy and Jack Sparrow are similar. They both seek treasure, they wind up in over the top situations, they are seen by some as scoundrels while others adore them. But really Indy & Pirates are to different things to me. I love both but for different reasons.

I would also say that Indy's follow up films were better than Pirate's sequals, but that's just my opinion.

[Niteshade007]

I don't really care too much for the Indy sequels (TOD being the one I prefer over LC), and while I felt that the second Pirates film was a little too gross and over-the-top at parts, I felt they really made up for it with an amazing third film. They could have easily gone the route of LC and Spider-Man 3, and make it almost a parody of the first two, but decided to give us a serious final chapter that really brings all story archs to a well written close. I was disappointed with Dead Man's Chest, and I must admit I was skeptical about At World's End, but I left the theater thinking it was on par with the original.

[jonesissparrow]

I'm very pleased that some people are agreeing to some of my points and not simply dismissing me and POTC trilogy.:) Especially Kongisking's comment which I feel is really special and enlightening thank you.:D;)
I do agree that POTC and Indiana Jones have different styles. POTC is a tribute to pirate films and golden age Hollywood in itself with a spoonful of cheekiness and fantasy along the way. Indiana Jones, of course is a tribute to Saturday Matinee serials of the late 30s and 40s, the same as Star Wars with the exception, Indiana Jones has more adventure in the vein of King solomon's Mines and Tintin with a dash of fantasy, but I felt that these two franchises share the common thread of adventure storytelling. And showing that adventure stories has endless possibilities and that the main heroes are handsome and charming rogues of the trade meeting up with larger than life villians to get to a certain prize.

I do agree with Niteshadow i didn't like DMC as much as COTB and AWE, not as much the first viewing I didn't. Then multiple viewings I started to learn to love its charm, I still think the Kraken fight at the end was a bit overblown other than that it was a worthy sequel. Unlike, AWE I love that immediately and got swept up by the movie. All in all I think these two modern franchises gives an old dog new tricks.

[jonesissparrow]

POTC feels like to melike a classic novel like a Charles Dickens novel in the sense there is alot of manipulation and plot in those novels especilally Oliver Twist. So in a way the POTC works more like The Odyssey and Moby Dick than say Transformers or Ocean's 11 that's probably why people were off putted about the films because it is a very old fashioned and complex way of telling a story.