Indi*hic*ana Jones

[xVendetta17x]

As some of you may know Steven Spielberg originally envisioned Indy as an alcoholic for Raiders. What do you think of this twist to the character? Should it've been kept or was it an unneccesary layer to an already developed character?

[herr gruber]

Well, if they had taken that direction it probably wouldn't have been water in the grail...

I think they were wise to avoid the idea because they had already borrowed enough from characters that had gone before - Bogart type roles such as Treasure Of The Sierra Madre in which the characters have a bottle of bourbon for breakfast. You know the type.

[swarbs]

he still has a drink in all 3 movies

[Violet Indy]

The Raiders novel seems to play out Indy that way. Same with Marion. I think it's pretty unneccessary to have. There was too much to Indy in the novel supposedly based on the screenplay. Something had to go and it was that side of him.

[xVendetta17x]

I never read the novels, just the comic adaptions
Any examples from the novel
Like in The Raven does he get drunk or...?

[Mickiana]

Indy being an alcoholic wouldn't have fit in with his character at all. Here we have an academically achieved guy with global renown for his professorship and field explorations. He's intelligent, fit and capable. I've known and do know alcoholics and while they function normally in a lot of ways they are crippled by their need for booze in other ways. An alcoholic normally has to drink a fair bit each and every day and while some hard bitten adventurers and heroes may have been portrayed as big drinkers in a glamorous way, there is certainly no glamour in it at all. Having a few drinks every now and again, though, is OK and having a few drinks every day is a habit. Indy an alcoholic? Not necessary and not plausible.

[No Ticket]

Indy's too smart to fall into alcoholism. He has a lot on his plate to handle, teaching at a university... not to mention his "hobby" outside of that. And that hobby puts him into quite a few dangerous situations. Being alcoholic is a liability that Indy cannot afford to have.

But that doesn't stop him from drinking. He just is smart enough to know his limits.

[ResidentAlien]

He DOES get plastered after Marion *dies*, let's not forget...

[xVendetta17x]

Indiana does like his booze
But don't we all when the time comes?
If my re-kindled old flame just died i'd certainly get drunk

[Stoo]

He DOES get plastered after Marion *dies*, let's not forget...Indy is also drinking alone at his house before Marcus arrives in "Raiders".

[No Ticket]

He DOES get plastered after Marion *dies*, let's not forget...

He just blew Marion up. Or so he thought. That's a good excuse. I'd go do that too.

[The Man]

He was essentially poisoned AND possessed by drink in TOD. That ought to have nailed his ass to the wagon for life.

[Mickiana]

Alcoholism is a long term process. Enjoying a drink by yourself in no way needs to be an indication of addiction. I've known alcoholics who drink mostly in the company of others. In fact, they may seek to strengthen their addiction by promoting drinking in others around them. Drinking too much everyday, whether by yourself or in the company of others, is a problem. Drinking for the effects of the alcohol is one thing and i'm not saying it's a good or bad thing, but drinking for the enjoyment of the beverage is something I go for. That's not to say I don't find the relaxing effects of alcohol pleasant, but I know what it is and where it belongs.

[eroc]

He also likes using booze as a weapon. "Whiskey."

Does anyone know what kind of Whiskey Marion handed to Indy?

[Stoo]

Does anyone know what kind of Whiskey Marion handed to Indy?The bottle is Johnnie Walker (Black Label) but the colour of the contents don't match.

[ResidentAlien]

He just blew Marion up. Or so he thought. That's a good excuse. I'd go do that too.


You know... I never thought how much that scene echoes the "gin-joints" scene from Casablanca. It's a knowing nod by Spielberg, I think.

http://www.theraider.net/films/raiders/gallery/dvdscreenshots/193.jpg

http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger2/4773/116387825826884/254/281232/gse_multipart40819.jpg

[herr gruber]

He's intelligent, fit and capable.

Are you generalising that alcoholics are unintelligent?
:confused:

[eroc]

The bottle is Johnnie Walker (Black Label) but the colour of the contents don't match.

Thanks! What color are the contents?

[|ZiR|]

You know... I never thought how much that scene echoes the "gin-joints" scene from Casablanca. It's a knowing nod by Spielberg, I think.

!!!

I never noticed that, and I've seen Casablanca way too many times than is probably healthy.

Are you generalising that alcoholics are unintelligent?

Clearly. Because, as we all know, there are no alcoholics who are intelligent, well respected, and have academic backgrounds. Duh. It's beyond implausible, that is.

Really though, I think its understandable that Indy was an lush in the script. Drinking was just what *real* men DID back then. A lot of Pulp heroes drank an inordinate ammount of alcohol, like Brett Halliday's Mike Shayne, for example. Dude drank like a fish.

But I am glad they cut that character flaw out of the final product. Bumbling Indy is funny, yes. Bumbling intoxicated* Indy, the other hand, is just sad.

*Well, OK, the Obi-Wan club scene is funny. But that's different! Being poisoned is one thing; getting yourself wasted is quite another.

[ResidentAlien]

!!!

I never noticed that, and I've seen Casablanca way too many times than is probably healthy.

You and I both...

...One of my 10 favorite films of all time.

Don't know why that just occurred to me, but it did. Wonderful nod.

[Mickiana]

Herr Gruber, there are always different ways to interpret something. Alot of things contain ambivalence. I did not mean to imply that an alcoholic is necessarily unintelligent. We would have to start discussing what we thought 'intelligent' means. I don't think it is intelligent to be addicted to anything and by that I really mean 'anything'. But an alcoholic definitely can still function in a professional, social and family life to the degree that the extent of their addiction allows them to do so. And it is all a matter of degree. What decides when one is addicted to something? In medicine or in psychiatry there are limits or standards decided upon by those institutions and they are not always easy to apply. The people I have met who have been or are alcoholics are generally bright people who can articulate well and think about things, but they have formed a need to consume a certain amount of alcohol which may impact on their health and their work/social/family environments. It has been found that an alcoholic's brain is significantly smaller than it should be and if, like me, you surmise that intelligence is channelled through the brain then it might also be seen that their intelligence may be being badly affected. Alcoholism affects personality traits, hormone levels, nutrient levels and so on all in a negative way. Suffering all of that is not an intelligent choice to me.

[Kingsley]

An alcoholic can be pretty aware about the negative effects of drinking.
But it may be hard to stop, the choice isn't an easy one. Intelligence isnt enough when you have a phisical or psicological dependency.

Indy isn't alcoholic... Marion drinks a lot more!

[Hedwig]

I don't think that there would be as many Indiana Jones merchandise as there is now if Indy would have been an alcoholic in the films... Or has any of you seen toys made of an alcoholic action hero? And I'm talking about toys made for kids. I think that Indy drinks enough in the films, because if he would drink more, there would be less time for the main thing: the adventure. But in the same time, I think that Indy isn't aimed (not sure if it's a correct word) for little kids, he's aimed for about ten year olds and older people... But this is only my opinion.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Well to be honest folks, I believe everytime I have seen Indiana drink in the films it has always been booze, unless someone can correct me on something I dont remember. He even remarks in a sarcastic tone to his pops, "remember the last time we had a quiet drink? I had a milk shake." He doesn't drink "kiddy stuff" anymore. Now Im not saying Indiana Jones is an alcoholic at all, but I think any time he drinks a liquid in the films it is liquor.

and as for unintelligent alcoholics... simply not true.
Dr. Hunter S. Thompson anyone? (Even though most of you will say he was a drug crazy loon, which in real life he was not really.) Ernest Hemingway? Jack Kerouac? Arthur Rimbaud... the list could go on forever but I'll stop there... they were all not only intelligent, but BRILLIANT minds.

[xVendetta17x]

So it is agreed
Indy is a man who enjoys his booze

[herr gruber]

Herr Gruber, there are always different ways to interpret something. Alot of things contain ambivalence. I did not mean to imply that an alcoholic is necessarily unintelligent. We would have to start discussing what we thought 'intelligent' means.

My definition of intelligence is someone who, after dropping their bottle of whiskey into a tank of piranha, thinks twice before retrieving it with their bare hands.

[Mickiana]

I do like that definition, Herr Gruber. Yes, a wise man would get a net with a long handle! (only kidding, or maybe not). To say "Indy enjoys his booze" as xVendetta17x says is an unfair way of saying he occasionally enjoys a drink and may get drunk in very extreme and tragic circumstances (such as unwittingly blowing up a loved one) because the word 'booze' has a negative connotation. Get your hands on a high quality whiskey and savour a shot of it for as long as you can. Let it warm, swirl it around, breathe its wonderful smell in through your nose then sip it. Yum...

[xVendetta17x]

Whiskey burns
Scotch is something to savour

[Mickiana]

There is a difference as you point out, but whiskey need not be something that burns. There can be smooth whiskey. In retrospect, I should have said a good Scotch as my preference.

[|ZiR|]

Any examples from the novel
Like in The Raven does he get drunk or...?

I'm reading the Raiders adaptation right now, and though I haven't gotten to the scene in the Raven yet (only at chapter 3) there is something...

In the Chachapoyan temple, when Indy finally gets to the idol, he takes a drink. (!)

Here's the actual passage: "He'd made it. He'd done it. He pulled a liquor flask from his pocket, uncapped it, drank hard from it. This one you deserve, he thought. Then he stuck the flask away and stared at the idol."

Do non-alcoholics or casual drinkers generally carry around their own flask? Well maybe if they're adventuring in South America they do.

Make of it what you will.

[isaac_z]

Here's the actual passage: "He'd made it. He'd done it. He pulled a liquor flask from his pocket, uncapped it, drank hard from it. This one you deserve, he thought. Then he stuck the flask away and stared at the idol."


well that certainly puts a different spin on the character...

i seem to recall spielberg discussing indy's alcoholism in one of the bonus features on the last DVD set...

[xVendetta17x]

I'm reading the Raiders adaptation right now, and though I haven't gotten to the scene in the Raven yet (only at chapter 3) there is something...

In the Chachapoyan temple, when Indy finally gets to the idol, he takes a drink. (!)

Here's the actual passage: "He'd made it. He'd done it. He pulled a liquor flask from his pocket, uncapped it, drank hard from it. This one you deserve, he thought. Then he stuck the flask away and stared at the idol."

Do non-alcoholics or casual drinkers generally carry around their own flask? Well maybe if they're adventuring in South America they do.

Make of it what you will.
I'm glad they didn't go down that road
Though it is an interesting twist

[The Stranger]

Here's the actual passage: "He'd made it. He'd done it. He pulled a liquor flask from his pocket, uncapped it, drank hard from it. This one you deserve, he thought. Then he stuck the flask away and stared at the idol."

Well, now it seems to be pretty clear that according to the scripts Indy was meant to be depicted as an alcoholic... or one who drinks often (and hard), indeed.
In that case, I'm glad they decided to ignore such an aspect when making the movies. Having an "addicted" protagonist would have probably implied the necessity to include much "darker" subplots... Indy would have been different, more of an anti-hero than an actual "good guy". The stories would have been more grotesque and less light-hearted. Maybe there would have been even less comedy in them...
Alcoholism is definitely not a good thing, and I think it's better that they opted to exclude it from Indy's life.

[xVendetta17x]

It's how they're going to portray Tony Stark in Iron Man, or at least they'll get more in-depth with it in the second one
I think it works depending on the character, maybe not so much with Indy
But in a character such as Tony Stark it would be an interesting layer

[|ZiR|]

More of evidence of Jones' insatiable thirst...

pg. 45, Conneticut, Indy's House:

Indy got up from the sofa and, hands in his pockets, walked around the room. The girl, for some reason, was more of an intrusion than she should have been. Sometimes he tuned her out. He heard only the noise of her voice and the the meaning of her words. He poured himself a drink, sipped it, swallowed it; it burned in his chest -- a good burning, like a small sun glowing down there.

Hmm.

pg. 46, Indy's House

"Brody stared at the glass in Indy's hand."

Was he worried about Indy's drinking?


pg. 62, Nepal, outside The Raven

"The Raven, Indy thought. The man had made a mistake. Confused and drunk, that was all. Still, if this was the only joint open in this hick burg, he could stop and see if anyone knew something. He got out of the car, aware of the noise coming from inside the tavern now, the rabbling kind of noise created by any congregation of of drinkers who've spent their last several hours devoted to the task of wasting themselves. It was a noise he enjoyed, one he was accoustumed to, and he would have liked nothing better than to join the revelers inside. Uh-huh, he said to himself. You haven't come all this way to get loaded like a lost tourist checking the local lowlife. You've come with a purpose. A well defined purpose."

Jones is no stranger to the booze.


pg. 68, inside The Raven

"'I like it when you look dejected,' she said. 'I'll buy you a drink. Name it.' 'Seltzer,' he said, and sighed. 'Seltzer, huh? Changed days, Indiana Jones. I prefer scotch myself. I like bourbon and vodka and gin, too. I'm not much for brandy. I'm off that.' 'You're a tough broad now, aren't you?' She smiled at him again. 'This ain't exactly Schenectady, friend.'

So Indy says no, but Marion's an alcoholic too!

pg. 100, Cairo, bar

"You ruined her life when she was a girl. And now you've ended it when she was a woman. He walked down the narrow streets, the alleys thronged with people, and blamed himself over and over for the death of Marion. It was more pain than he could think about, more than he could bear. And he knew of only one remedy. One reliable form of self-medication. So he found himself walking toward the bar where, earlier, he had arranged to meet Sallah. That seemed locked in the dim past now, another world, different life. Even a different man.

He saw the bar now, a rundown place. He stepped inside and was asailed by the smell of thick tobacco smoke, and spiled booze. He sat on a stool by the bar. He ordered a fifth of bourbon and drank one monotonous shot after another, wondering -- as he grew more inebriated -- what it was that made some people tick while others were as animated as broken clocks; what was the clockwork so necessary to successful relationships that some people had and others didn't. He let the question go around in his mind until it shed its sense, floating through his alcoholic perceptions like a ghost ship.

He reached for another drink. Something touched his arm and he twisted his head to see the monkey sitting on the bar. The stupid primate to which Marion had become so witlessly attached. Then he remembered that this had splashed a kiss on Marions cheek. Okay, Marion liked you, I can tolarate you. 'Want a drink, you baboon?' The monkey put its head to one side, watching him. Indy was aware of the barman as if he were a fugitive from a nearby asylum."

Indy's off the wagon. (Though he does have a rather legitimate excuse for getting sloshed. I mean, c'mon.)

And that's as far as I've read for now.

[Mickiana]

None of that is really evidence of being an alcoholic. What we need to know is how regularly he actually drinks and how much each time. Is it daily, weekly, binge drinking or what? One alcoholic I know refers to having 'AFDs' several days a year at most. An AFD is an Alcohol Free Day. You know you are an alcoholic when it controls you, when you start to organise your day around drinking and there is regular patterned consumption that characterises your daily timetable. The World Health Organisation says that there is no safe level of alcohol that can be consumed as a strict guideline, but a drinking habit is necessarily characterised by high levels of consumption.

[xVendetta17x]

I remember reading the line where he gets a Seltzer in the original Raiders script
I suppose they took elements from the original script not just the shot script

[Lao_Che]

Indy is also drinking alone at his house before Marcus arrives in "Raiders".

Not in the novel he's not. :eek:

[Dr. Gonzo]

Not in the novel he's not. :eek:
Hahahaha! Indiana Jones you are a sly one. Didn't George also want him to be somewhat of a playboy? (this is somewhat apparent in the novel too?)

[xVendetta17x]

Yeah he did
I remember him saying it in the DVD feature

[Stoo]

In his '90s, Indy still likes to wet his whistle. The closing bookend for "British East Africa, September 1909"
has Indy getting up from the table and grabbing his wine glass before leaving. Where is he going with it?
Out to the hotel lobby?