Lazy Action in LC

[Raiders112390]

Is it me, or do the action scenes in LC seem very ''lazy''? I mean that they lack the intensity, and excitement of the action scenes in ToD and Raiders. Especially the tank chase. It just seems very dull and ''old' when put in comparison with the other two films' chases. In the other films, especially in Raiders, in the action scenes you feel like there is truly something at stake, whereas the action scenes in LC all have some comedic element to them. Don't get me wrong, the action scenes in the other two did have little snips of comedy but it wasn't as slapstick or as prominent as in LC.

[Snakes]

I disagree. I think the Tank chase is one of the best action scenes of the whole trilogy. But I like the comedic elements, and I can see how someone might think there was too much.

[IndySeven]

The action was lazy until the tank chase. That was the best part of the entire film!:up:

[Travis85]

I think the tank chase is the best chase scene in all three movies to be honest. I also like the motor cycle chase and the boat chase :P I think Crusade has some great action, but yeah it isn't quite as brutal as the other movies.

[Tsar]

Completely disagree. LC had some great action sequences, the Tank Chase in particular is one of the best in the trilogy.

[Indy Geek]

I like the first part with Phoenix on the train, and the music itself awesome!!

[Travis85]

The action scenes while well done, didn't have the same sense of danger to them as in Raiders or Temple, because the movie had a much lighter tone.

[loganbush]

Young Indy and Tank had great suspenseful action sequences. And the lake scene is prob. the most disliked chase scene but it still has some tension when the boat's getting chopped up.

[Agent Spalko]

I love the motorcycle chase and the tank scene. Crusade is one of my favorite films of all time and my second favorite Indy film. If you think Crusade is lazy just wait 8 more days.

[Raiders112390]

I love the motorcycle chase and the tank scene. Crusade is one of my favorite films of all time and my second favorite Indy film. If you think Crusade is lazy just wait 8 more days.

I'll put it this way: The few minutes of action of KOTCS I've seen in the trailers trounces the action in LC by far. But I'm willing to reserve my opinion of a film until I actually actually see with my own eyes on screen, unlike some.

LC is, obviously, the most lighthearted of all the Indy movies and has a very comedic and slapstick atmosphere in reaction to the bad reaction ToD got, and it's the most forumulaic; ToD is the darkest and has horror elements; Raiders has an old fashioned film flavor, and is a good mixture of light and dark. KoTCS, from all accounts, is a balance of the three.

[Travis85]

Are you implying that Kingdom will be lazy? :P If so, then how can you say that about a movie you haven't seen?

[Agent Spalko]

Oh and blowing up a Russian tank with a bazooka isn't lazy?

[Raiders112390]

Oh and blowing up a Russian tank with a bazooka isn't lazy?

Jumping from a car while it's driving at full speed and it's being shot at by machine guns isn't lazy? I'd like to see you try that.

Running and jumping atop a line of crates while being shot at, and attempting to whip through the air down and forward onto to the back truck which is also travelling at full speed isn't lazy?

Bear in mind that the character we're dealing with is 58 in this film, as opposed to being 39 like he was in the setting of the last film. I'd say that's pretty good for 58 year old, and better than any 39 year olds I know could do.

[Agent Spalko]

If you think LC is lazy compared to Grandpa Jones then perhaps you need to have your vision checked.

[herr gruber]

Is it me, or do the action scenes in LC seem very ''lazy''? I mean that they lack the intensity, and excitement of the action scenes in ToD and Raiders. Especially the tank chase. It just seems very dull and ''old' when put in comparison with the other two films' chases. In the other films, especially in Raiders, in the action scenes you feel like there is truly something at stake, whereas the action scenes in LC all have some comedic element to them. Don't get me wrong, the action scenes in the other two did have little snips of comedy but it wasn't as slapstick or as prominent as in LC.

I agree 100%. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Indy Lite instead of in delight.

[Agent Spalko]

I agree 100%. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Indy Lite instead of in delight.

Well you're going to be getting some Indy VERY Lite next week.

[Raiders112390]

If you think LC is lazy compared to Grandpa Jones then perhaps you need to have your vision checked.

Grandpa Jones? Like I said, whipping through the air and jumping off a car and onto another one which is traveling pretty fast while you're being shot at is pretty good for ''Grandpa.''
Getting thrown down through a window whilst fighting a guy isn't lazy imo.

[Agent Spalko]

Grandpa Jones? Like I said, whipping through the air and jumping off a car and onto another one which is traveling pretty fast while you're being shot at is pretty good for ''Grandpa.''
Getting thrown down through a window whilst fighting a guy isn't lazy imo.

Compared to LC it's Diet Caffeine Free Indy-Lite.

[Raiders112390]

Well you're going to be getting some Indy VERY Lite next week.

You mean in comparison to the parody of Indiana Jones that LC is at many points?
Again--I don't see how the stunts we've seen so far--From the fight with the giant Russian, during which we've seen Indy is (a) thrown on his back through a doorway and punched b) falling through a glass window whiling fighting c) hanging from a steel chain while kicking said Russian through another window d) getting held in the air and choked by same Russian

or a) Jumping from a car while it's moving at god knows how many miles per hour while getting shot at to go on top of another car, taking out 3 guys at once in the process
or b) the rocket sled fight, travelling at many miles per hour
or c) whatever else happens in the movie

are considered ''Indy lite''

How can you judge a movie which you haven't seen? At least I'm offering an opinion on LC, a movie which has been out 18 years. You're bashing a movie which isn't even out yet.

[Agent Spalko]

All I have to say to that is: The Fridge.

[Raiders112390]

Compared to LC it's Diet Caffeine Free Indy-Lite.

LC, the movie where the only characters not to look like total buffons are Indy and his dad? Marcus goes from serious wise mentor to senile old buffon who got lost in his own museum. The villains are slapstick and not at all menacing, unlike Toht and Belloq. Sallah is made to like a complete fool, whereas in Raiders he had his intelligent, serious moments.

[Raiders112390]

All I have to say to that is: The Fridge.

I'd say in that one moment alone he gets beat up pretty bad. Getting hurled through the air in a fridge must hurt. Ouch.

[NamedAfterDaDog]

LC, the movie where the only characters not to look like total buffons are Indy and his dad?


And Marcus.

[Agent Spalko]

I'd say in that one moment alone he gets beat up pretty bad. Getting hurled through the air in a fridge must hurt. Ouch.

Indy [does something that we'll all find out about once the film comes out and spoilers are a moot point]?
LAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAZZZZZZZZYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!! :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep:

[Raiders112390]

Indy survives an atomic blast in a fridge? LAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAZZZZZZZZYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!! :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep:

Indy (and two other people) survive a fall which is probably at least 100 ft. from an airplane in, no, not a paracute, but an inflatable raft. That's pretty lazy, and ridiculous.

[Agent Spalko]

Indy (and two other people) survive a fall which is probably at least 100 ft. from an airplane in, no, not a paracute, but an inflatable raft. That's pretty lazy, and ridiculous.

No argument from me there. One of my biggest gripes with Temple of Doom.

[Raiders112390]

No argument from me there. One of my biggest gripes with Temple of Doom.

Indy also gets thrown a glass window in Raiders, which would more than likely damage a person much worse in real life. And then he holds on by his bare hands to the truck's grill. And he gets pulled under a truck, which in the film is supposed to be moving very fast, and pulled along the ground roughly, at the same speed. And somehow He's stronger than that moving truck because he's able to pull against it along a whip and back up into the truck. That's lazy, and bordering on physically impossible.
Also--Indy watched a man survive getting his heart ripped out of his chest. Lazy.

If we were looking for accuracy or stuff that's within the realms of reality, we wouldn't be watching Indiana Jones

[Agent Spalko]

Raiders is a masterpiece and the greatest action film ever made. Indy 4 is going to feel like a shadowy reflection by comparison.

[Raiders112390]

Raiders is a masterpiece and the greatest action film ever made. Indy 4 is going to feel like a shadowy reflection by comparison.

But if we're going to criticise Indy 4 for it having impossible in real life moments, we must criticize the other 3 films for the same flaws.

Many sequels are shadowy of the original. Even ToD and LC. If you want to pick apart a film, you can pretty much criticise it for anything. ToD is too different, no Judeo-Christian mythos. LC is too much of the same, it's a retread, etc.
You can't expect a sequel to match the original for quality--because it's the original. There's only one sequel I know of that's better than the original, and that's the Godfather Part II.

And Raiders is not the best action film ever made. Best adventure film? Yes. But action film? No. Not when there's Rambo, Rocky, the Terminator, James Bond and others out there.

Going into a movie, however, with pre-conceived notions, or with a negative attitude and hoping for it to be bad, isn't going to increase the pleasure of your viewing experience.

[Agent Spalko]

If Raiders wasn't the best adventure film ever made it must be Last Crusade.

[spiralout]

I don't think it was laziness that was the problem, I think they just came up with too many dumb ideas, like young Indy disappearing in a magic box, a boat getting caught between two ships, Indy snapping a flagpole with his hand, Indy's strap getting caught on the tank gun, etc...

[Raiders112390]

If Raiders wasn't the best adventure film ever made it must be Last Crusade.

LC is a retread of Raiders in many ways.

Nazis search for ancient biblical artifact of significant, perhaps ultimate importance with which they will dominate the world. Indy must stop them. There's a villain who is not a Nazi but sympathizes with them for his own purposes, a Nazi soldier who also acts as a villain, a foxy tough lady who has a love/hate relationship with Indy, it starts off at the end of a quest which has nothing to do with the next quest, it shows Indy teaching at college, Brody is seen and/or involved, Sallah is seen and/or involved. The artifact is directly responsible for the mutilation and grissly death of the villain (Belloqs, Tohts and Dietrech's ugly demise via blowing up, face melting off, skin melting off; Donovan's rapid aging and turning to dust); It brings Indy together with someone from his past with whom he's had a difficult relationship.

The only big difference is the artifact, and the subplot of Indy being the Son in LC.

[Agent Spalko]

The Holy Grail>Crystal Skulls

[Raiders112390]

The Holy Grail>Crystal Skulls

The Holy Grail is a myth, made up and coming to prominance during the medieval ages in connection with the Arthurian legend, whereas at least the Ark has a biblical basis, connected with Arthur and Avalon (of which there's sadly no mention in LC).

There is no mention of the Grail in the Bible. There is the cup at the Last Supper, but it seems most take the Grail to be a separate used to catch his blood at the crucifixion, and that the same idea is present in LC.

It's been blown up over time because it involves Jesus, I guess, and because the idea of a cup catching his blood is somehow romantic. It supposedly grants eternal life, but in the film it can't pass beyond the Great Seal. Therefore in the end it is useless to both Indy and the Nazis, though they don't know it beforehand. The Holy Grail, it seems, takes a backseat to the relationship between Henry and Indy, and is more symbolic of one finding one's self.

The Ark, however, is indeed a vital power and very dangerous in the wrong hands, as evidenced by the grissly ends of the villains in Raiders. It is a very real, and very dangerous artifact in the movie.

Whereas the Crystall Skulls, according to this film, allow the holder to control the mind of whoever the user wishes. That goes more to controlling and dominating the world. Control a person's mind, you can control the person. which is what the Nazis, the Thuggee and the Russians all seem to want.

Sankara Stones are a fictional amalgram of different Indian myths and stories of sacred rocks, and we're not truly sure of their powers except that they can burn people's hands when Shiva gets angry. Oh, and that they glow when put together. But there's no mention made of HOW the Thuggee would control the world using the Stones.

Therefore Ark>Crystal Skulls>Grail>Sankara Stones.

[Agent Spalko]

Crystal Skulls have been debunked as fraud. They were made by a Victorian hoaxter. There is no scientific validity to them, especially this rubbish about mind control. I can believe in an ancient myth not some sci-fi BS.

[Raiders112390]

Crystal Skulls have been debunked as fraud. They were made by a Victorian hoaxter. There is no scientific validity to them, especially this rubbish about mind control. I can believe in an ancient myth not some sci-fi BS.

Only one Crystal Skull I believe has been debunked. There are many others out there.

What makes an ancient myth more believable?
So you then believe in flying machines and of gods descending from the skies? After all, the Epic of Gilgamesh and the stories of the Vimana flying machines date to 500 B.C.
The Greek myths are ancient, doesn't mean that there's a group of great men and women living in a mountain in Greece.

The Sankara Stones are fictional. The Grail is a myth. It contradicts the concept of the New Testament. Jesus' death and ressurection is the key to eternal life, that is what His sacrifice has given us. What point is there for a Holy Grail then? It is hs blood which would in theory make the cup holy, and his blood will have long been washed out of it by 1938It has little use to it's owner, for even though it grants eternal life in the movie, it does not grant eternal youth or strength. Therefore anything gained short term by posession of the Grail would not have any benefit in the long-term.

The Ark is biblical and debating the validity of the Bible is a matter of faith but in the movies, certain liberties are taken with the Ark's powers. It's not told biblically to melt people's faces and it likely would not be in Egypt. In the movie, whatever army has the ark is invincible. All they have to do is open it, close their eyes, and there goes their enemies. There it is a very real threat; very valuable to whoever would have it.

Just because a legend is old doesn't make it true.

[Agent Spalko]

And thus is the crux of the argument. I can believe in ancient myths of Gods decending from the skies or Elijah's chariot racing across the heavens in an Indiana Jones film. When you introduce aliens and science fiction in an Indiana Jones film you have problems. Myth then becomes Science Fiction as a lazy excuse to explain the unexplainable and supernatural.

[Raiders112390]

And thus is the crux of the argument. I can believe in ancient myths of Gods decending from the skies or Elijah's chariot racing across the heavens in an Indiana Jones film. When you introduce aliens and science fiction in an Indiana Jones film you have problems. Myth then becomes Science Fiction as a lazy excuse to explain the unexplainable and supernatural.

What is the difference between a flying ''chariot'' which can take one to the heavens, and a spaceship? Just a matter of wording. To ancients out in biblical times, a space ship might appear to be a chariot. It's the only vehicle they could relate such a sight to.

Aliens and what not were not always the vehicle of science fiction. There have been reports of strange visitors and of flying disks for centuries. Even Alexander the Great saw flying disks. H.P. Lovecraft handled interdimensional beings well, and his works are considered classic pulp.

And gods is subjective. When the Conquistadors landed in South America, the natives thought they were gods and treated them as such. Even the earliest myths have Gods coming down from the ''heavens'', or the sky to visit Earth. We now know that the ''heavens'' can be equivalent to space. We also know that space is vast and perhaps infinite and holds billions of galaxies, stars and planets.
Wouldn't a technology evolved race seem like ''Gods'' to humans who were still using rocks and living in caves? A god is a higher power and aliens would seem to an early human to be a power greater, or higher, than himself.

Aliens are, at present, mysterious and unexplainable to us. We don't know they would come from, or why, or how, and we don't know what implications that would have for us. Sounds sort of God-like. We don't know the origin of God, or why He, She or It exists, or what means for us.

Science Fiction is just another form of mythology, perhaps a more modern form yes, but a mythology none-the-less.

[Agent Spalko]

Science Fiction is just another form of mythology, perhaps a more modern form yes, but a mythology none-the-less.


The difference being the Divine, supernatural, the unexplained. You say that the ancient gods were all a bunch of big headed aliens in spaceships and you have Stargate and X-Files not Indiana Jones. Let me know when O'Neil and Jackson show up in Indy 4 along with Bill Mulder and the CSM.

[Raiders112390]

The difference being the Divine, supernatural, the unexplained. You say that the ancient gods were all a bunch of big headed aliens in spaceships and you have Stargate and X-Files not Indiana Jones. Let me know when O'Neil and Jackson show up in Indy 4 along with Bill Mulder and the CSM.

But the concept we have of the divine comes from the ancients, who very well may have been seeing things from another world. Accounts in the Bible itself sound very close to what we now consider alien ships.
Those kind of myth-hunters, if you will, such as Stargate and the X-Files have a genesis in Indy. Indy was one of the original hunters of the unexplained. X Files takes a very scientific, very conspiracy and monster of the week spin on it. Indy 4 is taking the Indy spin on it.
Fate of Atlantis dealt with ancient cultures with advanced technolgy and with psychic abilities and yet everyone seems to love it.

I don't see what precludes Indy from getting involved in this. He's a master of the occult, of the unexplained. Aliens are unexplained. Why limit Indy? He's dealt with Voodoo, Human Sacrifice, and Indian Gods. Aliens isn't that different from Voodoo. It would be kind of ridiculous to have Indy discover every major Judeo-Christian artifact under the sun.
Wouldn't Indian deities contradict LC and RotLA?
The setting is the '50s, when all of that stuff was very much publicized and big. It fits.

[Moedred]

Speaking of lazy, Raiders112390, you started the same thread (http://raven.theraider.net/showthread.php?t=10214) last year.

Get to know the search function.

[Agent Spalko]

But the concept we have of the divine comes from the ancients, who very well may have been seeing things from another world. Accounts in the Bible itself sound very close to what we now consider alien ships.

More like forcing the shoe to fit the feet of religious myths.


Those kind of myth-hunters, if you will, such as Stargate and the X-Files have a genesis in Indy. Indy was one of the original hunters of the unexplained. X Files takes a very scientific, very conspiracy and monster of the week spin on it. Indy 4 is taking the Indy spin on it.

Then why should Indy subscribe to the scientific approach from which they had spawned from? Indy is Indy, X-Files is X-Files. If I want an ancient and mysterious adventure, I watch Indy. If I want the scientific approach to unexplained phenomena and alien conspiracies, I'll wait for X-Files in July. They are not the same.

Fate of Atlantis dealt with ancient cultures with advanced technolgy and with psychic abilities and yet everyone seems to love it.

I thought Fate of Atlantis was juvenile non-canon tripe.


I don't see what precludes Indy from getting involved in this. He's a master of the occult, of the unexplained. Aliens are unexplained. Why limit Indy? He's dealt with Voodoo, Human Sacrifice, and Indian Gods. Aliens isn't that different from Voodoo. It would be kind of ridiculous to have Indy discover every major Judeo-Christian artifact under the sun.
Wouldn't Indian deities contradict LC and RotLA?
The setting is the '50s, when all of that stuff was very much publicized and big. It fits.

I'd rather he went after the mythical sword of Excalibur. Would have kept in line with the Arthurian lore and themes established in Last Crusade or even the Spear of Destiny.

[Agent Spalko]

Speaking of lazy, Raiders112390, you started the same thread (http://raven.theraider.net/showthread.php?t=10214) last year.

Get to know the search function.


:D :D :D Now THAT is lazy! :p :p :p

[Salacious]

I think every action scene in LC is pathetic.

Slapstick Young Indy Adventure.

Boat chase scene that was a bore. The fight on the boat was pretty boring. What...Indy threw a punch and flipped a guy over his shoulder. Ok...but dont qualify it as more than that. Pretty fugly.

Escape from the castle. I smell 3 stooges...."Daaaaaaaaaaaaad". And the fireplace as it keeps turning around as the Nazis keep missing them and they cant shoot at all on the other side point blank. Something out of Scooby Doo.

Motorcar chase. The joust and the throw pole in spokes. I swear I've seen this in silly cartoons. Its not horrible, but again dont make it more than it is. If I were going to take it serious, then I give it an F.

Tank Scene. Not bad. When Indy is shooting the gun while chasing the Tank...thats cool. Indy jumping onto the Tank....thats cool. The fight on top of the tank....slapstick. Indy shoots all those guys with one bullet....a SNL spoof. Then Vogel hitting Indy with the shovel as he is on the side....ugh...bad choreography....fugly choreography at best. Then Vogel hitting Indy in the side as he headlocks him while Indy is holding Henry in place with the whip....has anyone watched this scene?!?!??! Its horrible!!!! :sick: What kind of fight is that!?!?!

End trials. Not bad, but not even close to as exciting or tense in comparison to Raiders or TOD. Watching the trials again.....ugh.

End of movie.

Last Crusade has funny moments. I swear I saw Adam Sandler and Jim Carrey in the movie. This movie is a parody of the 2 before it.

Obviously Spielbergo and Lucas wanted to do an entire 180° of TOD that they didnt realize they still had to make an "adventure" movie. They were too focused on making it too disimilar to TOD to realize what they were creating....a spoof of an Indy movie. Seriously.

I give LC 2 stars out of 5. The 2 stars go to Connery and that is it. Everything else is bullplop.

[Darth Vile]

Hmmm – I see where the original poster is coming from as some of the action does lack a little conviction at times e.g. the boat chase through Venice and the young Indy intro on the train. These two scenes in particular, even though I like them, seem a little more like “excitement by the numbers” (if you know what I mean). However, I too think the tank scene is one of the best in an Indy movie (if a little too long). Also, I love the whole Austrian castle scenes, cumulating with the motorcycle chase.

The challenge is with any action series that it’s inevitable you end up repeating yourself. This I think results in some lack lustre action (but I don’t think that is borne out of lack of effort etc). That said - I love LC, and I also think it's the easiest Indy movie to re-watch (as it has the perfect mix of action/non-action), even if it's not as good as Raiders.

[Darth Vile]

Re. the last post by Salacious.

I think Lucas/Spielberg were definatly trying to recapture some of the original Raiders magic with LC. It’s a given that LC is closer to the original movie than the 2nd (most 3rd acts of trilogies usually are). Whether it works in it's favour depends on one’s own opinion... but for me it did.

Personally I feel that LC has much more of a story than TOD (which seems more like a day in the life). I like that it seems more akin to a treasure hunt/boys own adventure than both Raiders and TOD. Also, I find the father/son thing a lot more emotionally rewarding than anything in TOD.

[Travis85]

Well, I for one thought LC was a great movie, and is my personal favorite of the three. I don't see how anyone here can get so down on KOTCS, a movie which noone here has seen apart from maybe a minute long trailer :P. Any judgement based on that is not valid.

[Darth Vile]

Playing Devils Advocate, I can see why some have concerns about KOTCS. Some concerns are valid, some are not so valid. However, I don't think anyone should be writing off the movie at this stage until we've all seen it...

[oki9Sedo]

I watched Last Crusade on TV for the first time in ages.

Yes, the action is the weakest of the three for definite.

That said, its still a very good film.

[The_Raiders]

I liked the action in LC, but I don't know, something was lacking, not just the action, just something didn't feel right, or somethings missing, I mean I love LC, but I still think it's lacking something.

[yodazone]

"Last Crusade" had extremely slow action. Way too boring. There's also moments in the movie where the actors have these long awkward pauses too.

I found myself falling asleep of boredom when I saw the USA Network's airings of "Last Crusade."

:sleep: :sleep: :sleep:

[Kooshmeister]

Well, I think of the three films, Last Crusade is the most story and character oriented. The prior two movies (Temple of Doom moreso than Raiders) were mainly action. Raiders starts off slow when compared to some modern films, but once the story gets to Egypt it takes off and never really slows down. Temple of Doom just moves along, save for the scenes in the village early where they pause to set the story up.

Last Crusade, comparatively, takes its time with the story and the characters. We don't meet Henry or even learn about the involvement of the Nazis until about the middle of the movie's second act, unless I'm mistaken. After that it's all about Indiana and his father reconciling after several years of estrangement and Indiana thinking Henry doesn't have much faith in him, etc., so there's going to be long stretches of talking in-between the action sequences.

The action sequences themselves are also very character-oriented, the tank scene in particular. It involves all of the movie's principal characters (except Donovan and Elsa) and cuts back and forth between different people doing different things inside the tank and out. Indiana is using his fists while Henry and Marcus have to rely more on their wits since they're not exactly fighters, and Vogel of course is this big brute who uses every dirty trick he can think of to win.

It may not move at the breakneck pace of Raiders' truck chase (where the three main villains had little to do except sit and watch from their car) or Temple of Doom's mine car chase (which Mola Ram wasn't even involved in - although he makes up for this later), but it's definitely a pretty complicated sequence.

So, personally, I think Last Crusade is the most adult of the original three movies in that respect. It takes its time, and its action scenes concern themselves more with the behavior of the characters than the action itself. This will certainly turn off some viewers who want more action, but I think it's good for what it is.

[Attila the Professor]

+10 to Kooshmeister for the post above, and its recognition that action really isn't the point.

[oki9Sedo]

This is all true of the tank chase and dogfight sequence, but the speedboat chase is just plain poor.

[Agent Spalko]

Crusade is definitely the most mature whereas Temple of Doom was chock full of gratuitous self-indulgent set pieces leftover from Raiders.

[herr gruber]

+10 to Kooshmeister for the post above, and its recognition that action really isn't the point.


Harold Pinter's Indiana Jones And The Last Crusade. A startling piece about neglect and reconcilliation set inside a tank. :D

[Agent Spalko]

Harold Pinter's Indiana Jones And The Last Crusade. A startling piece about neglect and reconcilliation set inside a tank. :D

Well the Pen IS mightier than the sword. :D

[herr gruber]

Well the Pen IS mightier than the sword. :D

You quick witted swine!

[James]

I always felt Crusade was the "adult" Indy film. It moves at a slower pace, but has a little more depth and seems to resonate longer than the others.

[Attila the Professor]

Harold Pinter's Indiana Jones And The Last Crusade. A startling piece about neglect and reconcilliation set inside a tank. :D

Well, it did have the Stoppard touch...

[Raiders of Clay]

I think the plane scene could have been much better. The tank scene was very well done to me.

[davejames]

I think every action scene in LC is pathetic.

Slapstick Young Indy Adventure.

Boat chase scene that was a bore. The fight on the boat was pretty boring. What...Indy threw a punch and flipped a guy over his shoulder. Ok...but dont qualify it as more than that. Pretty fugly.

Escape from the castle. I smell 3 stooges...."Daaaaaaaaaaaaad". And the fireplace as it keeps turning around as the Nazis keep missing them and they cant shoot at all on the other side point blank. Something out of Scooby Doo.

Motorcar chase. The joust and the throw pole in spokes. I swear I've seen this in silly cartoons. Its not horrible, but again dont make it more than it is. If I were going to take it serious, then I give it an F.

Tank Scene. Not bad. When Indy is shooting the gun while chasing the Tank...thats cool. Indy jumping onto the Tank....thats cool. The fight on top of the tank....slapstick. Indy shoots all those guys with one bullet....a SNL spoof. Then Vogel hitting Indy with the shovel as he is on the side....ugh...bad choreography....fugly choreography at best. Then Vogel hitting Indy in the side as he headlocks him while Indy is holding Henry in place with the whip....has anyone watched this scene?!?!??! Its horrible!!!! :sick: What kind of fight is that!?!?!

End trials. Not bad, but not even close to as exciting or tense in comparison to Raiders or TOD. Watching the trials again.....ugh.

End of movie.

Last Crusade has funny moments. I swear I saw Adam Sandler and Jim Carrey in the movie. This movie is a parody of the 2 before it.

Obviously Spielbergo and Lucas wanted to do an entire 180° of TOD that they didnt realize they still had to make an "adventure" movie. They were too focused on making it too disimilar to TOD to realize what they were creating....a spoof of an Indy movie. Seriously.

I give LC 2 stars out of 5. The 2 stars go to Connery and that is it. Everything else is bullplop.

Yikes, I think you're being a bit harsh. I agree those action scenes may not get the pulse racing in quite the same way those in Raiders do, but they weren't really meant to anyway. Those sequences were obviously constructed more to be light and whimsical and FUN, and to get some chuckles out of the audience along the way.

It certainly worked like a charm in the theaters I saw it at back in 89.

Yeah, like most people here, there are times I wish Spielberg had maintained the same serious and somber approach of Raiders through all the Indy movies, but there's no denying that ToD and TLC still work really damn well on their own terms.

And I definitely reject the idea that TLC is just a "parody" of Raiders. Just because it's more lighthearted and comedic doesn't make it a parody.

[yodazone]

I think the plane scene could have been much better. The tank scene was very well done to me.

Their hats stayed on their heads while they were flying the plane.

No wind gusts blew either hat off....or was that another "joke" in "Last Crusade?"

:down:

[Agent Spalko]

Their hats stayed on their heads while they were flying the plane.

No wind gusts blew either hat off....or was that another "joke" in "Last Crusade?"

:down:

It's a running joke in ALL the Indy movies. When the hat blows off in Crusade before the tank goes over the cliff, it punctuates the fact that Indy's in some deep s#!t over his head.

[herr gruber]

Well, it did have the Stoppard touch...

Bah! Stoppard! I prefer the Willard & Gloria Huyck touch. More renowned in a less renowned way.:sick:

[Agent Spalko]

Bah! Stoppard! I prefer the Willard & Gloria Huyck touch. More renowned in a less renowned way.:sick:

I prefer the Kasdan way. More renowned in a much more prominent way.

[MaxPhactor23]

Just because a legend is old doesn't make it true.

Are you actually implying that a Crystal Skull of alien origin is...plausible in reality? Cause honestly, if you are, I want to know so I can throw your opinion right out the window. :hat:

[Raiders112390]

Are you actually implying that a Crystal Skull of alien origin is...plausible in reality? Cause honestly, if you are, I want to know so I can throw your opinion right out the window. :hat:

Yes I do. Maybe not plausible in reality, but certainly plausible in an Indiana Jones movie. At least, as plausible as anything else we've seen in the series. The Indy series isn't about what's plausible in reality, because if it was, there would be not that many scenes in the original 3 films as well.

[MaxPhactor23]

Yes I do. Maybe not plausible in reality, but certainly plausible in an Indiana Jones movie. At least, as plausible as anything else we've seen in the series. The Indy series isn't about what's plausible in reality, because if it was, there would be not that many scenes in the original 3 films as well.

Of course I'm not saying that if hypothetically the grail existed it would have healing powers. I'm not saying that if the Ark hypothetically is real is would have the ability to shoot "the power of god" out upon it's frightened enemies. I see your points...but I raise the fact that the Indy films are all based on relatively respectable real myths, legends, folklore stories, and history. The Crystal Skulls having an alien origin is not. There is one so-called “ET” skull in reality, and from what I’ve heard it’s been debunked as a fake. The main skull hasn’t even a theoretical alien origin. It's thought to have been very much so man-made, simply very intricately. Some even think the original is a fake and the crystal skulls have been a huge hoax all along. Perhaps it's true, perhaps not. Either way the latest film has taken more liberties then all the others. Aliens do not blend into archeology on a real world basis. Of course they don't, that's common sense. I get that Indy isn’t real world per say, but it does deal with real world concepts. Believe me, I’ve done my history homework, there’s more truth to Indy then most people suspect.

[nitzsche]

There aren't any good whip stunts in LC. Indy swings once, then uses it later to keep his dad from falling off the tank in one of the most contrived and unconvincing solutions to a dilemma seen in an IJ film.

Then you have Indy running through rat-infested catacombs under Venice wearing a suit and tie... Then on to a boat chase and a mild fisticuff wearing the same suit and tie... Without that iconic costume, these scenes seemed tame and relaxed somehow - just plain.

There also is no Indy vs. giant thug brawl in LC, which was expected and sorely missed. Vogel was a horrible choice to challenge Indy on the tank. You had a handful of 20-something nazis lackeys easily shot down and blown away with a cannon, and then some crusty coot, Vogel, as the primary nemesis.

Not nearly enough fight scenes in LC.

George Lucas had to call Ford and Connery out to the ranch to do the motorcycle chase as a pick-up because of how slow the pacing was and the lack of action after principal photography wrapped and editing began.

I expect KOTCS to absolutely crush LC in the action category.

More whip action, more fist fights, more complex chase sequences, more peril on the journey.

[davejames]

Of course I'm not saying that if hypothetically the grail existed it would have healing powers. I'm not saying that if the Ark hypothetically is real is would have the ability to shoot "the power of god" out upon it's frightened enemies. I see your points...but I raise the fact that the Indy films are all based on relatively respectable real myths, legends, folklore stories, and history. The Crystal Skulls having an alien origin is not. There is one so-called “ET” skull in reality, and from what I’ve heard it’s been debunked as a fake. The main skull hasn’t even a theoretical alien origin. It's thought to have been very much so man-made, simply very intricately. Some even think the original is a fake and the crystal skulls have been a huge hoax all along. Perhaps it's true, perhaps not. Either way the latest film has taken more liberties then all the others. Aliens do not blend into archeology on a real world basis. Of course they don't, that's common sense. I get that Indy isn’t real world per say, but it does deal with real world concepts. Believe me, I’ve done my history homework, there’s more truth to Indy then most people suspect.

Well to be fair, just because most of the crystal skulls out there are fake doesn't mean they ALL are. Considering how the ones in the movie appear much different (and more alien) than any others I've seen, I have no trouble buying that these skulls could be the "real" ones referred to in mythology. At least for the purposes of the movie and my suspension of disbelief. :D

Plus I've just come to accept that there just aren't a lot of other good macguffins out there. The Ark was a brilliant, one-of-a-kind macguffin; nothing could ever come CLOSE to that. Noah's Ark? The Spear of Destiny? Atlantis? Please.

Crystal Skulls certainly aren't any worse than those, and at least give you a few more story angles to work with.

[MolaRam2]

The action in Last Crusade is more akin to James Bond style action than Indy style action. I like James Bond movies, but when I am watching an Indy movie, I want Indy style action. Last Crusade is definately my least favorite Indy, but I love them all, I just can't watch Last Crusade as much, and it doesn't excite me nearly as much as the other two when watching it.

To me, Indy style action is running from a boulder, escaping from the Well of Souls, fist fighting a giant thug (with the thug getting a gruesome demise), the spike room, the rescue of Willie from the sacrifcial pit, the mine cart chase, and the rope bridge scene.

Last Crusade is more typical action like a boat chase and a tank chase.

[DiscoLad]

LC seemed more prganized then Raiders, But Raiders was original and perfect, just an awsome movie that can't be topped...if you ask me..

[oki9Sedo]

There also is no Indy vs. giant thug brawl in LC, which was expected and sorely missed. Vogel was a horrible choice to challenge Indy on the tank. You had a handful of 20-something nazis lackeys easily shot down and blown away with a cannon, and then some crusty coot, Vogel, as the primary nemesis.

I think to have Indy fight Pat Roach again would have been repetitive.

Vogel was good......he's vicious, dirty and ruthless, and taking full advantage of the fact that Indy is busy fending off other attackers etc

[indyrcks]

I love Last Crusade I think Sean Connery is superb in it and I love the moment when Indy climbs back up and then his dad hugs him:)

[wolfgang]

LC is my favorite Indiana Jones movie. I admit it is more of a character film than an action film. But the Indiana Jones movies to me aren't just about the action. I say they are adventure films! But that doesn't mean that LC lacks action. Not at all in my opinion. But maybe it does have a more western feel than adventure. Doesn't mean its bad. Its still my favorite of the three....WAIT, no! FOUR!

[Morning Bell]

LC features some of the best action in the series. I love the fact that the film is basically one long chase sequence until the end; Indy and his dad are on the move non-stop and it adds some extra tension and excitement into the mix. I love the tank chase and the motorcycle chase is also one of my favorites.

[Robyn]

This is pretty much what I was tring to say in my other thread, LC for me definitely has the slowest action, I really prefer the faster action like the truck chase in Raiders and the mine chase in Temple

[wolfgang]

I totally agree with Morning Bell. I love the fact that they use man-made machines to reach something that is unreachable. Like Marcus sates at the beginning (not exact words) "To seek the grail is to seek our own illumination." Something like that. And the fact that they are using boats, motorcycles, zeppelins, airplanes makes it that much more meaningful to me. I'm pretty sure it wasn't intentional from the producer and director, but its just the personal view I give it.

[Lance Quazar]

Haven't read the whole thread, but, yeah, I always felt the LC action scenes were subpar compared to the intensity of "Raiders" and the breakneck pace of "Temple of Doom."

Even the first time I saw it in theaters, many of the action scenes fell flat, as if Spielberg was just going through the motions.

The worst offenders, in descending order of bad:

The boat chase, but especially the fight with Kazim near the propeller. ZERO suspense.

The opening scene on the boat. Clumsily directed, crappy fake-looking set.

The plane chase. Crappy blue scene work, at no point do we believe Ford and Connery are actually in a real plane.

The tank chase. Should have been MUCH tighter. Some cool moments, but slow in spots. The bag strap bit was awful and should have been replaced with something else.

Scenes that kinda work:

Most of the catacombs/boat up until they drive through the two boats. The shot of the boats moving closer together was so slow that it killed the momentum of the sequence and the rest didn't work either, as discussed above.

Post-plane chase on the ground - after the plane crashes, the scenes of them running and driving from the planes was good and fast-paced.

Motorcycle chase - a bit silly and the fake "explosion" beneath the bike when Indy threw the pole in the spokes was a bit much. But it's generally a fun sequence

Young Indy Train sequence - this works in fits and starts. Some of the silliness derails the tension. Especially the AWFUL "yeeeeoooow!" dub of Indy screaming when he falls in the snake pit. WTF? Who the hell did they get to record that awful noise? An eight year old girl? A dying cat? It sounds nothing like what Phoenix is doing in the rest of the sequence.


I still like the movie, but the bland action sequences definitely make it the lesser entry in the Indy trilogy.*


*Yes, I said trilogy. There are only THREE Indy movies.

[Sakis]

The way I see it we'll never see a bullwhip vs sword fight. Damn!!!

[Lance Quazar]

The way I see it we'll never see a bullwhip vs sword fight. Damn!!!

Yeah. MAJOR missed opportunity from KOTCS. Sigh...

[wolfgang]

While I agree that Indy should have used his whip much much much much more in KoCS, I believe that in ToD he has a Bullwhip vs. Swordfight with the two thugees, that references to the part in Raiders.

[sweet belloq]

Definitely too self concious in its aim to please the Raiders lover. I also find it the least exciting of the original three.

[Col. Detritch]

Quote: Action in LC

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is it me, or do the action scenes in LC seem very ''lazy''? I mean that they lack the intensity, and excitement of the action scenes in ToD and Raiders. Especially the tank chase. It just seems very dull and ''old' when put in comparison with the other two films' chases. In the other films, especially in Raiders, in the action scenes you feel like there is truly something at stake, whereas the action scenes in LC all have some comedic element to them. Don't get me wrong, the action scenes in the other two did have little snips of comedy but it wasn't as slapstick or as prominent as in LC.[/

I strongly disagree! LC is my favourite of all the movies! It has the tank chase and the boat chase, in my opinion two of the best action sequences in the films (Not including the Truck chase or Rope bridge showdown:D ) It is Differently not "lazy" :up:

[Sakis]

While I agree that Indy should have used his whip much much much much more in KoCS, I believe that in ToD he has a Bullwhip vs. Swordfight with the two thugees, that references to the part in Raiders.

That's exactly my point the TOD scene was only a reference.

[Rocket Surgeon]

Is it me, or do the action scenes in LC seem very ''lazy''? I mean that they lack the intensity, and excitement of the action scenes in ToD and Raiders. Especially the tank chase. It just seems very dull and ''old' when put in comparison with the other two films' chases. In the other films, especially in Raiders, in the action scenes you feel like there is truly something at stake, whereas the action scenes in LC all have some comedic element to them. Don't get me wrong, the action scenes in the other two did have little snips of comedy but it wasn't as slapstick or as prominent as in LC.

I remember one of the issues they talked about was how slow the tank's top speed was. I'm not sayinging we need the Jason Bourne fast cuts, (cool for that movie) but I agree the "action" was lackadaisical.

[AlivePoet]

Especially the AWFUL "yeeeeoooow!" dub of Indy screaming when he falls in the snake pit. WTF? Who the hell did they get to record that awful noise? An eight year old girl? A dying cat? It sounds nothing like what Phoenix is doing in the rest of the sequence.

Never thought of it much before, but now that you bring it up... you're right!

Although you must concede it's pretty hilarious as the film jumps to a shot of the train chugging by with the reptiles banner on the car.

[wolfgang]

That's exactly my point the TOD scene was only a reference.

It is a reference but a very well done one. To me it was a great fight! I saw it as "Lets remember this joke. But here, see? Now we are giving you what you didn't see last time." The fight in Raiders wasn't suppose to be that long anyway. I mean, I agree with you that a longer one would be great! I myself wouldn't get enough of it. But to me that scene delivers. I dunno....maybe I'm looking at the glass half fool. But its fine with me. Oh well....

[MaverickKing]

Is it me, or do the action scenes in LC seem very ''lazy''? I mean that they lack the intensity, and excitement of the action scenes in ToD and Raiders. Especially the tank chase. It just seems very dull and ''old' when put in comparison with the other two films' chases. In the other films, especially in Raiders, in the action scenes you feel like there is truly something at stake, whereas the action scenes in LC all have some comedic element to them. Don't get me wrong, the action scenes in the other two did have little snips of comedy but it wasn't as slapstick or as prominent as in LC.

I completely agree. The action in Last Crusade - with the exception of the tank fight, for me - seemed rather tame. The boat fight at the start was a bit bleh, but the Venice boat chase stuck out like a sore thumb. It was hardly even paced. And the backgrounds looked shocking. Ugh.

Not to say they weren't enjoyable. But I expected more after the previous two films.