Indy's uselessness as a hero/What if he didn't exist?

[Great Cloud]

Just went back and watched all four films. Has it every occurred to anyone that one of the clever, underlining ideas in all of these films is that for as much as Indy fights his way to the secret locations and races against time to beat his enemies to find the MacGuffin, his presence is never actually required? The MacGuffin always does a solid job wiping out his enemies for him. Consider:

1. Arc of the Covenant. Once the Nazis opened it up, the angel of death melted them all and returned to heaven. All they had to do was find it, do the secret ritual, and be killed by the Hand of God. Indy could have showed up later and just collected the artifact. All his struggles to find it, and God beats him to the punch.

2. The Shankara Stones. They eventually turn against the Shaman and abandon him. Granted, Indy still saved the children from slavery and brought the stone back to the village to end poverty, etc. But the stones noticeably heat up in the Shaman's hands and refuse to play along with his plan. For all of Indy's efforts here, the stones took care of themselves.

3. The Holy Grail. As soon as any of those Nazis, assuming they got past the first booby trap without Henry Sr.'s notes, selected the right cup, they'd have gotten killed in the earthquake as soon as they tried to cross the Great Seal with the Grail. There was never any danger of them actually getting away with the cup.

4. The Crystal Skull. With our without Indy, as soon as Spalko put that skull back on that skeleton, all the Russians would have been sucked into the vortex and the alien ship would have taken off. All Indy did was stand there with his mouth open. Ox, Marion, et al would have ended up just fine had Indy not showed up and had the Russians simply done exactly what they did anyway.

By my calculation, Indy's most successful mission was retrieving that Native American pipe in his cameo in the Young Indy Chronicles. When he blew that saxophone and caused an avalanche. That was the only case we've seen when his input was essential to rescuing the MacGuffin from enemy hands. LOL.

Is it safe to assume that the MacGuffins in these films are so powerful in their own right that Indy's presence is basically meaningless? I'm not dogging this series - I actually find this to be a charming, ironic aspect of his adventures. Furthermore, for an archaeologist, he never once gets to keep any of these precious relics. So what's the point of looking for them if he can't put them in a museum and they're going to destroy the bad guys without his interference? I imagine a great parody being, "Indy... the enemy is trying to find Thor's Hammer!" Indy: "Doesn't matter. That's a tough hammer. It will take care of itself. I'm taking my boy fishing." And, according to tradition, he'd be right.

Thoughts?

[Vance]

Indy was forced into the Crystal Skull quest, and effectively forced into the Grail quest. Besides, Indy as a heroic figure isn't about getting the MacGuffin in the end, it's about everything he does getting to that point.

I mean, Temple of Doom is the best example. Who, again, saved the children, which -to me- was far more of a triumph than returning the Stone?

The Grail? He saved his father's life at the end. Yes, the Grail (or Elsa, depending on how you look at it) killed Donovan, but Indy risked his life to GET there for his father's sake.

Perspective, guy.

[Crusade>Raiders]

Me and a few friends talked about on the way out of the theater after watching Kingdom. Nazis open Ark, they die. Nazis drink wrong cup, they die. Commies try to attain knowledge, they die. Indy is merely a spectator at that point.

[Vance]

Yeah, but they're each part of the point of the MacGuffins (even Indy realizes this in Raiders). They're bigger than mankind. It's one thing to collect and learn about them.. it's another to try to use their power.

Honestly, don't you know anything about the type of movies the Indiana Jones flicks ARE? ("You are meddling with powers beyond your comprehension.")

[Great Cloud]

I'm certainly not undermining Indy's heroics. I admit that he DID save the children. But I think it's quite funny that by the time the villians have a hold of the MacGuffin, Indy just has to kick back and watch the films play out. Admittedly, Temple of Doom is the weakest link in my argument, as he was highly involved with returning the stones to their rightful location, but three out of four ain't bad. And even in that film, the stones caught fire and literally attacked the shaman, and Indy just had to make sure he was there to catch it afterwards.

[Nurhachi1991]

Well here is my perspective your an idiot!!





Don't ever call Indy useless.............

[Great Cloud]

I'm certainly glad you confirmed to me that I'm an idiot. I wasn't sure, but you've singlehandedly helped me see the light with your insightful post. Thanks, bud.

[IJ_KELLER]

Even though Indy is good in a fight. His real power is Witts. Take the Ark, the Grail, and the Crystal Skull. All three objects took Indys smarts to find them, and the enemy simply used Indy to obtain them. and then Indy had the brains to know how to avoid the dangers of those objects and let the baddies kill themselves trying to harness their powers.

[Nurhachi1991]

I'm certainly glad you confirmed to me that I'm an idiot. I wasn't sure, but you've singlehandedly helped me see the light with your insightful post. Thanks, bud.



Should of thought of that before you called Indy useless! I find that offensive!!

[Adamwankenobi]

By my calculation, Indy's most successful mission was retrieving that Native American pipe in his cameo in the Young Indy Chronicles. When he blew that saxophone and caused an avalanche. That was the only case we've seen when his input was essential to rescuing the MacGuffin from enemy hands. LOL.

LOL! Literally! :D

[UltimateManGod]

Should of thought of that before you called Indy useless! I find that offensive!!

Why? Is Indy some sort of relative of yours? He's a fictional character. Not real. You are the king of ridiculous overreactions. Though I will say that Indy's presences often gets the film to the finale, he has little input in how it goes. Doom is where he has the most. He saves the kids and recites something to release the power of the stones. Have a look at this. It applies here too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCVlmhZgubU

[Nurhachi1991]

Why? people get offeded by everything nowadays................. videos on youtube, political issues, religious issues, basically everything you can think of now some one gets offended



So if I wanna get offended by someone calling Dr. Jones useless I ******* will :up:

[UltimateManGod]

Why? people get offeded by everything nowadays................. videos on youtube, political issues, religious issues, basically everything you can think of now some one gets offended



So if I wanna get offended by someone calling Dr. Jones useless I ******* will :up:

People can get so worked up about the most pointless crap. It doesn't mean they should. Indy is PRETEND. Politics and religion are real world issues that have a far greater impact than a made up character. If you're getting worked up and offended by someone pointing out the obvious, that Indy rarely has much to do in the finale, then I feel sorry for you. At least you didn't wish cancer or AIDS upon this person.

[Nurhachi1991]

Lol I remember that! But that guy deserved it man he ruined the ending.


You know half the time I'm messing around :p

[Great Cloud]

Life's too short to take too many things seriously. Especially when someone calls you an idiot on a message board.

I think the line that sums up Indy's essence in Crystal Skull, nearly on par with "I don't know, I'm making this up as I go," is when he says, "I don't think we wanna go that way." Which is why I love Indy so much - he's a man keenly aware of his abilities...and his limitations. He seems as amused at his own insignificance in the last acts of his movies as we do.

[Perhilion]

I thought about this exact same thing. I don't really mind it, I just think it's funny that Indy doesn't really do anything in the end and still comes out ahead.

[Jones_Happens]

Indy=useless.

DOES NOT COMPUTE!!!

[Flash Dixson]

you can say that again

[Great Cloud]

Uselessness in defeating the enemy and actually keeping the macguffin, not uselessness as puzzle-solver, archeologist, badass.

[Flash Dixson]

Uselessness in defeating the enemy and actually keeping the macguffin, not uselessness as puzzle-solver, archeologist, badass.
yeah but he never takes the macguffin, not the grail, not the ark, not sankara stones, and not the crystal skull.

[Mrs_Fedora]

lol No i don't think Indy is useless (at all!), but i do think he's
some kind of anti hero (if you know what i mean) ...

[Indy Byrd]

I too don't think Indy as useless...I mean look at ALL OF US. I mean Indy has played a role, however slight or inconspicuous, in our lives, otherwise we would not be a member of this board. So what if he never retireves the artifact he seeks? The point of the films (or my view of them anyway), is to take us on an adventure that none of us really can take. I mean just cause he doesn't take home the prize doesn't mean we can't learn something from him. In the Last Crusade as Indy was looking back to the Temple of the Grail, Henry says to him "Elsa never believed in the Grail. She thought she had found a prize." and Indy turned to his dad and replied "And what did you find?" Henry's reply "Enlightenment". I think Indiana Jones has more use than we give him credit for.

[Way of the dodo]

Indy SAYS the chant that makes the Sankara Stones burn through the bag AND catches the stone with one hand to bring it back. He's no spectator.

[Great Cloud]

Indy SAYS the chant that makes the Sankara Stones burn through the bag AND catches the stone with one hand to bring it back. He's no spectator.

Again, Temple of Doom might be the exception. But my point has always been this: If Indy stayed home, the macguffin STILL would have destroyed the bad guys without Indy's help. I think that's pretty indisputable. But I love that about Indy...it makes him such a likeable everyman.

[eroc]

Me and a few friends talked about on the way out of the theater after watching Kingdom. Nazis open Ark, they die. Nazis drink wrong cup, they die. Commies try to attain knowledge, they die. Indy is merely a spectator at that point.

But Indy is a hero. He is good, and knows right from wrong. He does not perish when the greedy does. He's broke a needs money, but he won't sell his soul, and in the process saves the world. So **** yeah Indy's a hero!

And he always gets the girl!

[Way of the dodo]

Well, Indy is the reason the Ark didn't end up in a Nazi wherehouse. Or worse, a Nazi lab where they eventually figure out to open it with their eyes closed.

[eroc]

Well, Indy is the reason the Ark didn't end up in a Nazi wherehouse. Or worse, a Nazi lab where they eventually figure out to open it with their eyes closed.

But the fact remains...our hero...Indiana Jones stops all of this from happening.

[DetectiveFork]

I'm certainly glad you confirmed to me that I'm an idiot. I wasn't sure, but you've singlehandedly helped me see the light with your insightful post. Thanks, bud.


hehehehehe

[CasualJeff]

I've been thinking...am I wrong, or is Indiana Jones the most worthless hero ever?

Just imagine for a second that the character of Indiana Jones doesn't exist in the Indy universe. How would the movies have played out?

In Raiders of the Lost Ark, the Nazi's would have killed Marion and stolen the amulet, and then found the Ark of the Covenant. They would have safely taken it to Hitler, opened it up, and every Nazi in germany would have been destroyed. If Indiana Jones hadn't gotten in the way, we could have avoided the whole holocaust!

Similar situation in Last Crusade. The Nazi's would have kidnapped Henry Sr, only to find that he'd mailed his diary to the Marx brothers. The story probably would have ended there--but even if not, so what? So they find their way to the holy grail, send in hundreds of soldiers in until SOMEBODY has the sense to kneel and roll forward and then use trial and error to find the right cup. And then they realize that it's a worthless prize since immortality only lasts until you cross the seal.

Crystal Skull? I don't think those dumb Russians would have found anything without Indy's help. So there wouldn't even have been a story. But again, even if they find it the skull just kills them.

What's the point of having a race to the next artifiact when the artifacts just end up killing the bad guys anyway? If I were Indy I would just sit back and relax. Let God take care of it all.

[The Man]

The journey's the thing, I suppose...

[muttjones]

he didnt know at the start of the movies that the things he is searching for would kill them when they found it.

[Lonsome_Drifter]

Well, concerning the Ark.
If Indy never was in the picture; I think that Toht would have went to The Raven, and killed or tortured Marion with the poker until he got the Amulet.

Then, Belloq would have located the Well of the Souls, and then the Ark. Thus, Belloq would have taken it to the isle and opened it, and the scene would have ended the same, but just without Indiana and Marion.

[Nurhachi1991]

You stole this thread from another user........... These points were shown long long ago......

[salussolia]

But wihtout indy the nazis wouldnt have followed him to the raven

[Lonsome_Drifter]

But wihtout indy the nazis wouldnt have followed him to the raven

The nazis knew about Abner, and I would be willing to bet that sooner or later they would learn about his daughter, and where she was.

[CasualJeff]

You stole this thread from another user........... These points were shown long long ago......

Sorry--I'm new. I had a feeling this kind of thread might have already been done, but didn't see anything while scanning the first few pages.

To Indy's credit, I guess he did help out in Temple of Doom. Those stones didn't start burning Mola Ram until Indy pointed out that he was betraying Shiva. This leads me to believe that Shiva is the laziest of all gods featured in the Indiana Jones series. Doesn't do jack until Indy points out that he's been dissed.

[PloKoon]

I've been thinking...am I wrong, or is Indiana Jones the most worthless hero ever?

Just imagine for a second that the character of Indiana Jones doesn't exist in the Indy universe. How would the movies have played out?

In Raiders of the Lost Ark, the Nazi's would have killed Marion and stolen the amulet, and then found the Ark of the Covenant. They would have safely taken it to Hitler, opened it up, and every Nazi in germany would have been destroyed. If Indiana Jones hadn't gotten in the way, we could have avoided the whole holocaust!

Similar situation in Last Crusade. The Nazi's would have kidnapped Henry Sr, only to find that he'd mailed his diary to the Marx brothers. The story probably would have ended there--but even if not, so what? So they find their way to the holy grail, send in hundreds of soldiers in until SOMEBODY has the sense to kneel and roll forward and then use trial and error to find the right cup. And then they realize that it's a worthless prize since immortality only lasts until you cross the seal.

Crystal Skull? I don't think those dumb Russians would have found anything without Indy's help. So there wouldn't even have been a story. But again, even if they find it the skull just kills them.

What's the point of having a race to the next artifiact when the artifacts just end up killing the bad guys anyway? If I were Indy I would just sit back and relax. Let God take care of it all.


Hahaha, you make some great points.

Might wanna point out that in Indy 2, he was of great help to the village and the kids :whip:

[WillKill4Food]

This leads me to believe that Shiva is the laziest of all gods featured in the Indiana Jones series. Doesn't do jack until Indy points out that he's been dissed.
:D :D :D :D :D :D

[Mickiana]

Maybe outdone, outrun or outnumbered by the enemy, but never useless. He is a willing participant forced to be an observer and he is contemplative enough to make this transition. He always ends up missing out on the prize, not getting the fortune and glory and has to be philosophical about it all. But he augments the chase for the prize by being the one who figures out how to get it and so ends up better at finding it than keeping it. It's actually a great moral in all the stories: the goal becomes illusory and all the action that we think is the substance of the plot is merely Jones working towards this point of loss.

[Indy&HanFan]

i don't think that makes indy useless.

[inky_skin]

You stole this thread from another user........... These points were shown long long ago......

I think you're referring to the "Indiana Jones: Infinities" thread...

http://raven.theraider.net/showthread.php?t=9974&highlight=infinities

...created by phillipmscott. If that's the case, and as 'he' was 'me' in a previous incarnation, I think 'stole' is a little harsh. Someone owes CasualJeff an apology ;)

[Attila the Professor]

I think you're referring to the "Indiana Jones: Infinities" thread...

http://raven.theraider.net/showthread.php?t=9974&highlight=infinities

...created by phillipmscott. If that's the case, and as 'he' was 'me' in a previous incarnation, I think 'stole' is a little harsh. Someone owes CasualJeff an apology ;)

No, I think he was referring to the thread that has now been merged with this one.

[inky_skin]

Fair enough Attila. I just don't like newbie-bashing.