Dietrich vs. Vogel vs. Dovchenko?

[oki9Sedo]

Which Colonel would win in a fight?

http://www.eniyi100film.com/sinema/Indiana-Jones/kotu_adamlar/Colonel%20Dietrich.jpg

http://www.filmdope.com/Gallery/ActorsB/2474-9434.gif

http://www.filmdope.com/Gallery/ActorsJ/46456-27497.gif

[Lonsome_Drifter]

Vogel wins hands down.
Look at that picture; he's ready to show the others how they say goodbye in Germany.

[oki9Sedo]

Vogel wins hands down.
Look at that picture; he's ready to show the others how they say goodbye in Germany.

I don't know, Dovchenko is much bigger and stronger, and is able to take a hell of a lot of abuse (how many times does Indy punch him, kick him, and hit him with a tree branch before he finally falls unconscious? :D )

[DocWhiskey]

Man, Vogel's a puss. He hits Indy while he's tied up and protects himself inside his steel beast. He could never handle himself toe to toe in a fist fight with Indy. Dovchenko FTW.

[oki9Sedo]

He's no coward, he's just cunning.

[deckard24]

Hands down Dovchenko!

We have absolutely no evidence that Dietrich can even throw a punch, and Vogel was just an opportunist, seizing on the moment to get the upperhand. In a straight up one-on-one fight Indy would own him!

[Morning Bell]

I have to give the nod to Dovchenko. That guy was HUGE and could really take a beating, as well as dish one out.

[oki9Sedo]

Agreed.

Vogel is smarter and more cunning, but Dovchenko is just too big and strong and resistant to damage!

He'd still lose against the German mechanic, though!

[Dirty Mac]

Dietrich's jaw looks like it could take a severe beating and he would be unscathed. Very strong jaw, indeed.

However, the luggish Dovchenko, all muscle and below average intelligence, would probably whip their asses without even realising he's done so.

[Violet Indy]

I think Dietrich has no chance in hell with either Vogel or Dovchenko. I reckon Vogel.... If he's an oppotunist, he find something to beat Dovchenko with or outsmart him.




Alright, fine. It's only coz I've got the Vogel autograph Topps card. Happy?

[Attila the Professor]

I know I upheld Vogel over the German mechanic in that other thread, but this round clearly goes for Dovchenko - he's not just a lunkhead, that's just how he expresses himself (heh). But Dovchenko clearly uses his surroundings, with the chains being the most notable case of that. You don't get to be a colonel solely through brute force.

[oki9Sedo]

I know I upheld Vogel over the German mechanic in that other thread, but this round clearly goes for Dovchenko - he's not just a lunkhead, that's just how he expresses himself (heh). But Dovchenko clearly uses his surroundings, with the chains being the most notable case of that. You don't get to be a colonel solely through brute force.

In fairness to the German mechanic, he doesn't use his surroundings because he doesn't need to. He wants to show Indy he can take him with fists alone.

Although at one point he does attempt to throw Indy in front of a wheel and crush him.

[Attila the Professor]

In fairness to the German mechanic, he doesn't use his surroundings because he doesn't need to. He wants to show Indy he can take him with fists alone.

Although at one point he does attempt to throw Indy in front of a wheel and crush him.

Fair point. I hadn't thought of that particular moment.

(Although, he did seem to have it used against him - and also tricks like "hey, look down there" - too often to think it's something that's too often part of his technique.)

[oki9Sedo]

Fair point. I hadn't thought of that particular moment.

(Although, he did seem to have it used against him - and also tricks like "hey, look down there" - too often to think it's something that's too often part of his technique.)

Agreed. The mechanic is not the sharpest tool in the box.

Vogel is a very good improviser for sure, but it wouldn't be enough to take Dovchenko, given that he's so much stronger and also since he isn't too bad at improvising himself (he saw an opportunity in hanging Indy with that chain).

[Nurhachi1991]

I'm rooting for Vogel. Indy never bashed Dovchenko's face into a steel tank multiple times. Plus Vogel got thrown out of a damn blimp and gets up unharmed.

[Attila the Professor]

I'm rooting for Vogel. Indy never bashed Dovchenko's face into a steel tank multiple times. Plus Vogel got thrown out of a damn blimp and gets up unharmed.

The zeppelin was still moored, though.

[oki9Sedo]

I'm rooting for Vogel. Indy never bashed Dovchenko's face into a steel tank multiple times. Plus Vogel got thrown out of a damn blimp and gets up unharmed.

I don't follow that logic. You're sayin Vogel is tougher than Dovchenko because he gets beaten up badly when Dovchenko doesn't?

[Kevin]

But Dovchenko clearly uses his surroundings, with the chains being the most notable case of that. You don't get to be a colonel solely through brute force.

Vogel used a chain as well, yes?

I still think Dovchenko would win, he is younger and stronger.

[Kingsley]

Vogel wouldn't go into a fist fight, he would simply shoot Dovchenko.
Very Indyish.

My vote for Vogel.

[Texas]

Dov would whip Vogel and Dietirch with ease.

[James]

Dovchenko is younger and stronger, and survived multiple encounters with Indy.

He's also one of the few men that can boast of having pushed around both Harrison Ford and Clint Eastwood.

[Lonsome_Drifter]

I still think Vogel would win. Let's have a look at my theory shall we?

Exaimine the screenshot below. We see Belloq with a scowl upon his features. He's pointing to Indiana in the truck, and shouting <i>"Kill him. He'll never give up"</i>. And, we also see Dietrich beside of Belloq with a dumb, and confused look on his face. I even dare say that Dietrich looks a bit <b>afraid </b> of Indiana Jones.

http://www.theraider.net/films/raiders/gallery/dvdscreenshots/325.jpg

In the next screenshot. We see Belloq looking around for Indiana Jones' truck. Belloq wants the man destroyed, but Dietrich looks relieved. He looks like he is glad that they can't find Indiana Jones. To make himself look tough, he hits a dog with one of the melons.

http://www.theraider.net/films/raiders/gallery/dvdscreenshots/330.jpg

In this last screenshot of Dietrich we see that both he and Belloq are in the nazi-base. Dietrich looks tough in the capture, but it is all a ruse. He is looking tough for his fellow nazis.

http://www.theraider.net/films/raiders/gallery/dvdscreenshots/353.jpg

Dietrich is a tough man, no doubt. But, deep inside he has a fear of Indiana Jones, and has a fear of being beaten. So, with that fear he would neither beat Vogel or Dovchenko.

I can't find any good pictures of Dovchenko, but I can say this: He is by far the strongest of the three, but he is also the dumbest. He is also slow, and gets dizzy easy (See the Rocket-Sled scene), and all Indiana Jones would have to do is run around him in a circle a few times.

Last but not least, we have Vogel. The better of the three. The other two may be stronger, and younger. But, Vogel is sneaky and dirty.
In the following screenshot we see Vogel at his best. Here he is feigning to holding Elsa at gunpoint, but as we know it is a ruse. That is sneaky and underhaned. And, look at the expression of pure glee on his face.

http://www.theraider.net/films/crusade/gallery/dvdscreenshots/182.jpg

Vogel plays dirty also. This gives him an advantage over the other two. Below, we see him hitting Indiana when he is tied to a chair. Again, his face is joyful.

http://www.theraider.net/films/crusade/gallery/dvdscreenshots/205.jpg

Somone in this thread mentioned about how Dovchenko used chains on Indiana. Vogel did it first! And, he was not playing around like Dovchenko. He wanted Indy dead, and he wanted to strangle him!

http://www.theraider.net/films/crusade/gallery/dvdscreenshots/326.jpg

So that is my theory on why Vogel would win hands down.

[James]

Yes, but Vogel had Indy dead to rights, and he still got thrown out of a window. He was then out so long, the zeppelin had time to escape. (Hence, the blue screen which was set up to allow him to save face in front of the audience.)

Also, Vogel was in Battlefield Earth.

These are not things you want to have listed on your record.

[oki9Sedo]

I don't know. When Indy and Vogel finally face off man to man at the climax of the tank chase, Indy whoops him without much difficulty.

He's stumped against Dovchenko, though. He has to put up his hand as a plea for mercy and abuse Dovchenko's good will by going for a weapon to beat him with.

[|ZiR|]

You have to remember Indy's advanced years at the time he fights Dovchenko. Dovy's still got my vote, though.

Also, I never really noticed until LD's post, but Paul Freeman was handsome! (If you ignore the pretty eyes.)

[deckard24]

I don't know. When Indy and Vogel finally face off man to man at the climax of the tank chase, Indy whoops him without much difficulty.

He's stumped against Dovchenko, though. He has to put up his hand as a plea for mercy and abuse Dovchenko's good will by going for a weapon to beat him with.
Agreed!

Vogel like I said earlier is just an opportunist, and a nasty one at that! If it weren't for the shovel, the chain, or his trusty luger, Indy would stomp him pretty quick! Dovchenko on the other hand was a mountain of a man, along the lines of the German Mechanic or the Giant Thugee Guard. His sheer physical superiority to Indy makes him more then a challenge, and if it weren't for Indy being the "opportunist" he is, he wouldn't have won!

Every time Indy has won a fight with a bigger or stronger opponent it has been due to either unforseen events(the propellor), or his seizing the moment and using a weapon for leverage(sand, shovel, stone, pick axe, piece of wood, etc.).

For sheer brute force I'd rank the German Mechanic first, followed by Dovchenko, and then the Giant Thugee Guard. But for overall nastiness, Vogel wins hands down. He was by far the most bloodthirsty of the bunch in my opinion.

[oki9Sedo]

You have to remember Indy's advanced years at the time he fights Dovchenko. Dovy's still got my vote, though.

Realistically 20 years would make a massive difference to your fighting ability, but Indy seems to be as good as he always was. He takes three or four guys out on one of the jeeps in the jungle chase and those two KGB agents in the car chase.

[oki9Sedo]

Agreed!

Vogel like I said earlier is just an opportunist, and a nasty one at that! If it weren't for the shovel, the chain, or his trusty luger, Indy would stomp him pretty quick! Dovchenko on the other hand was a mountain of a man, along the lines of the German Mechanic or the Giant Thugee Guard. His sheer physical superiority to Indy makes him more then a challenge, and if it weren't for Indy being the "opportunist" he is, he wouldn't have won!

Every time Indy has won a fight with a bigger or stronger opponent it has been due to either unforseen events(the propellor), or his seizing the moment and using a weapon for leverage(sand, shovel, stone, pick axe, piece of wood, etc.).

For sheer brute force I'd rank the German Mechanic first, followed by Dovchenko, and then the Giant Thugee Guard. But for overall nastiness, Vogel wins hands down. He was by far the most bloodthirsty of the bunch in my opinion.

German Mechanic is number one without a doubt!

I couldn't say who'd win between Chief Guard and Dovchenko, though.

[The Man]

Also, Vogel was in Battlefield Earth.


Dear Jesus. Yet, if he can survive that...

[Insomniac]

Dietrich would get his @$$ kicked by Dovchenko and Vogel would play just as dirty as Dovchnko and would outsmart and eventually come out on top!

Indy kicked Dovchenko's @$$ without a gun and he was 20 years older than in Crusade!


But it would be a pretty awsome fight!!!:up:

[Lonsome_Drifter]

Dietrich would get his @$$ kicked by Dovchenko and Vogel would play just as dirty as Dovchnko and would outsmart and eventually come out on top!

Indy kicked Dovchenko's @$$ without a gun and he was 20 years older than in Crusade!


But it would be a pretty awsome fight!!!:up:

HAH!
Someone who agrees with me!

[oki9Sedo]

Indy kicked Dovchenko's @$$ without a gun and he was 20 years older than in Crusade!

Dovchenko had him until he used a log, in fairness!

[Insomniac]

Dovchenko had him until he used a log, in fairness!
Ya and Dovchenko also picked up Indy by his ear very sportsmanlike!
:up:

[Kevin]

Based on the poll results so far, Dietrich and Vogel teamed together would still lose to Dovchenko. That sounds about right to me.

[oki9Sedo]

Ya and Dovchenko also picked up Indy by his ear very sportsmanlike!
:up:

Thats perfectly fair. If you only use your own body then its fair. Hands, feet, teeth are all acceptable in a fair fight, it only becomes unfair or dirty when you use a weapon (ie. a great, big tree branch!)

[oki9Sedo]

Based on the poll results so far, Dietrich and Vogel teamed together would still lose to Dovchenko. That sounds about right to me.

He could take either of them, but he couldn't take both.

Vogel is at his best when his opponent is distracted!

[brookystreet]

Dietrich didn't even fight Indy in ROTLA so we cannot really judge him and Vogel is easily less imtimadating (physically) in TLC.

So the answer to this question, for me, is easily Dovchenko :cool:

[StoneTriple]

Man, no contest - Dovchenko all the way.

Dietrich - all bark, no bite. "It's hot, I'm scared, I'm tired, I need to put my feet up and rest while other people do all the work" - wuss. :down:

Vogel - waited until people were tied up to hit them and he used women as hostages - lame. :down:

Dovchenko - cold blooded murderer. No tough talk, no punching people that couldn't defend themselves. He just beat the hell out of, or killed, anyone standing in his way - and he didn't bother with any unnecessary discussion either - total badass. :up:

[The Stranger]

Are you all kidding, right??

Dovchenko???

I mean, c'mon, he manages to lose a fist fight against a man that not only is half his height, but is also more than twice his age!! You know, Dovchenko is pretty much a buffoon, if you ask me...

Colonel Vogel, on the other hand, is a TRUE mercyless bastard. I think Dovchenko would last less then two minutes against someone like him.

[oki9Sedo]

Are you all kidding, right??

Dovchenko???

I mean, c'mon, he manages to lose a fist fight against a man that not only is half his height, but is also more than twice his age!! You know, Dovchenko is pretty much a buffoon, if you ask me...

Vogel wasn't able to beat Indy with a shovel, a chain, and attacking from behind, while Dovchenko had Indy crawling on the ground and raising his hand for mercy without using any weapons.

Indeed, Indy only beats him because he uses a tree branch!

[The Stranger]

Vogel wasn't able to beat Indy with a shovel, a chain, and attacking from behind, while Dovchenko had Indy crawling on the ground and raising his hand for mercy without using any weapons.

Well, if I recall correctly, when Vogel tries to defeat Indy with the shovel, he misses the shot... so that pretty much doesn't count.
Regarding the chain, he just uses it to suffocate Indy from behind, not to actually beat him harder.

Add to this the fact that he is physically weaker than Indy, and also appears to be some ten years older.
No doubts he demonstrates to be a ruthless incarnation of pure evil!!
I'm still ready to bet he would win!! ;)

Indeed, Indy only beats him because he uses a tree branch!

:confused: Uhm... I haven't seen the film since May, so I could be wrong, but... I remember pretty clearly that Indy defeats Dovchenko by punching him repeatedly in the face, so... what branch?? :confused:

[oki9Sedo]

Well, if I recall correctly, when Vogel tries to defeat Indy with the shovel, he misses the shot... so that pretty much doesn't count.
Regarding the chain, he just uses it to suffocate Indy from behind, not to actually beat him harder.

Add to this the fact that he is physically weaker than Indy, and also appears to be some ten years older.
No doubts he demonstrates to be a ruthless incarnation of pure evil!!
I'm still ready to bet he would win!! ;)

I don't understand the logic.....you're saying the only reason Vogel failing to defeat Indy with the shovel doesn't count, because Indy was able to duck the hits? Surely that emphasizes Indy's superior fighting skills, being able to avoid his swings with the shovel?


:confused: Uhm... I haven't seen the film since May, so I could be wrong, but... I remember pretty clearly that Indy defeats Dovchenko by punching him repeatedly in the face, so... what branch?? :confused:

Dovchenko punches Indy to the ground, then pulls him up by his hair and punches him to the ground again. When he moves toward him again, Indy raises his hand for mercy and Dovchenko obliges. Indy crawls on the ground to get his hat (which Dovchenko pulled off his head earlier), but then grabs a log and beats him repeatedly with it, before finishing him off with those punches.

Dovchenko had him until Indy used the log.

Vogel never had Indy, even with a shovel, chain, the treads of the tank, and other soldiers coming at him.

[Stefania Vogel]

Vogel wins hands down <333

He's a lot smarter than the others, as well as strong, so the others stand NO chance against him!

[oki9Sedo]

Vogel wins hands down <333

He's a lot smarter than the others, as well as strong, so the others stand NO chance against him!

He's shorter and skinnier than Indy, as I recall.

[Col. Detritch]

I voted Dovchenco! Only because of his size and sheer brutality.
we have no evidence to say that Dietrich can even fight, he is cool though!
As for Vogel, his is one tough son of a *****, He manages to hold off Indy at his age. I mean he has to be about 15 years older than Indy, and yet he still manages to inflict pain on him. In a 'fair fight' Dovcenco would win, but if there were no rules it would certainly be Vogel. He would just get a gun or shovel and own him!
They are both equal! (in their own sense):cool:

[AlivePoet]

As for Vogel, his is one tough son of a *****, He manages to hold off Indy at his age. I mean he has to be about 15 years older than Indy, and yet he still manages to inflict pain on him.

What is with people thinking that Vogel is considerably older than Indy? The actor Michael Byrne is actually a year younger than Harrison Ford. I never thought of him as being much older than Indy... no more than 5 years, if that. If there's solid proof that I'm wrong and that he is actually quite a bit older, please present it.

Not that it's a big deal... ;)

[The Stranger]

I don't understand the logic.....you're saying the only reason Vogel failing to defeat Indy with the shovel doesn't count, because Indy was able to duck the hits?

The logic is very simple. Imagine you and me engage a fight. You do have a shovel in your hands. I don't.
Now, one thing is if you ACTUALLY manage to hit me with that shovel, so you hurt me seriously, and thus when we subsequently engage the fist fight I happen to already be in pain and greatly debilitated.
A completely different thing is if you TRY to hit me, but you FAIL. In that case, when we engage the fist fight, we are both in the exact same conditions.

Surely that emphasizes Indy's superior fighting skills, being able to avoid his swings with the shovel?


Uhm... I'd say that pretty much any dumba*s in this world could have managed to dodge a swinging shovel as Indy did...

Now, my point is, you listed the shovel and the chain as if they were actual advantages for Vogel. But they were NOT.
Vogel misses Indy with the shovel, and he just uses the chain to strangle him from behind, one thing he could have done easily with his bare hands, obtaining the same results.

When Indy and Vogel struggle on the ground they seem to match each other quite clearly. But Vogel is weaker and older than Indy, so this means he is a real tough a**hole.

Vogel never had Indy, even with a shovel, chain, the treads of the tank, and other soldiers coming at him.

I'm not so sure Indy would have thought the same when his face was on the point to be ripped off by the caterpillar tracks.

Now, I remember the fight with Dovchenko being spectacular (one of the best scenes in Indy 4, if you ask me), but I don't remember ever thinking it was particularly demanding for Indy... but, hey, it's just me, maybe I should watch it again. ;)

P.S. sorry for the bad words I used in the post.

[oki9Sedo]

Now, my point is, you listed the shovel and the chain as if they were actual advantages for Vogel. But they were NOT.

I would disagree with that. If I had to fight someone I'd stand a much better chance with a shovel. My opponent would be in range well before I was within theirs. If Vogel couldn't take Indy with a shovel, he couldn't take him with his bare hands.

Vogel misses Indy with the shovel, and he just uses the chain to strangle him from behind, one thing he could have done easily with his bare hands, obtaining the same results.

When Indy and Vogel struggle on the ground they seem to match each other quite clearly. But Vogel is weaker and older than Indy, so this means he is a real tough a**hole.

He's actually a year younger, based on Michael Byrne's age.

As for being equal, look how easily Indy knocks him aside with a backhand when he uses the whip to catch his father, or how he dodges those shovel swings and just punches him to the ground, or how easily he gets free of his choke hold before slamming him against the turrett......whenever Indy is able to devote his full attention to Vogel, he kicks his ass. Its only when he's distracted by other soldiers, or hanging for dear life off the side of the tank, or trying to reel in his father from the tank treads that Vogel has the upper hand.


I'm not so sure Indy would have thought the same when his face was on the point to be ripped off by the caterpillar tracks..

He's not able to get his face against the treads though. Indy's able to resist him.

Now, I remember the fight with Dovchenko being spectacular (one of the best scenes in Indy 4, if you ask me), but I don't remember ever thinking it was particularly demanding for Indy

Dovchenko beats him so badly Indy has to raise his hand for mercy to get him to stop! And he doesn't use a single weapon or distraction once. Its just a one-on-one fight.

[IJ_KELLER]

Definitly Dovchenko! It took an army of giant ants to finally take him down. I would say Dietrich is the weakest link. He didn't do a thing in Raiders.

[Von Stalhein]

Vogel never had Indy, even with a shovel, chain, the treads of the tank, and other soldiers coming at him.
He did start to rape him on top of his tank however, until he was interrupted by the explosion of a truckload of his men.

[oki9Sedo]

He did start to rape him on top of his tank however, until he was interrupted by the explosion of a truckload of his men.

It was the leather jacket that made him succumb.

[Von Stalhein]

It was the leather jacket that made him succumb.
Succumb to what?

[oki9Sedo]

Succumb to what?

You said Vogel was trying to rape Indy, I was joking that it was the leather jacket that made him give in to his urges, given that its sexy and all that.

[Kooshmeister]

Regarding Dietrich and whether or not he's wimpy, I think that's a bit unfair since we never get to see him fight. And why would he? He's a colonel, presumably of the old-school when officers were supposed to be gentlemen and whatnot. Vogel and Dovchenko are borne of a new breed of officer, the kind unafraid to get down and dirty in the trenches with their men (Vogel is a WWI veteran and is a former professional athlete as per his entry on the Indy Wiki, if that makes any difference).

Here's how I view all three:

Colonel Herman Dietrich: Despite being a big, if not overly muscular, man, Dietrich is very much a gentleman, "brainy" type officer. Whether or not he's actually smart is a matter for debate, but what I mean is he's more of an intellectual man than a man of action. That's what he has soldiers for. He's the cloak, Toht is the dagger, if you will. Dietrich is also arguably the most arrogant officer, regal and proud. He may be a good leader from a tactical standpoint but despite his athletic build he's not a fighter. Nevertheless he has seen some action at some point in the past, judging by the scar across one cheek.

Colonel Antonin Dovchenko: Brute force and little else. While he isn't stupid at all, Dovchenko is clearly a very violent, "shoot first, ask questions later" sort of officer, who needs a more intelligent person like Spalko to keep him in check. His inability to see that Indy was obviously going for the big log, or at least to entertain the idea, and prepare for it, shows he's pretty singleminded about combat. He'll use the environment to his advantage if he can but focuses only on his opponent's defeat; he's blind to any surrounding or potential dangers (the log, the ants).

Colonel Ernst Vogel: The most well-balanced of the trio. Despite the novelization calling him a brute and using various other words to make him seem "big," Vogel is actually a fairly medium-sized guy. Like Dovchenko he uses the surrounding environment to his advantage (using the chain and shovel on the tank), but does him one better by anticipating things (he seemingly knew exactly where Indy and Henry would go after they left the burning dining room). His weakness is that he isn't as singleminded as Dovchenko, therefore something new entering the equation tends to disorient him; he's easily surprised and slow to react to things that catch him off guard. And also, despite being a courageous fighter, Vogel seems to overestimate his own prowess; he isn't as strong as he thinks he is and often looks before he leaps.

Bonus:

Major Gobler: He isn't a colonel but he's a Nazi military officer all the same. Much like Toht, he is the dagger to Dietrich's cloak. An energetic, confident man of very few words or opinions, he is basically just Dietrich's shadow (as the novelization so succinctly put it). Despite this, he is very much a take-charge kind of guy. Witness him in the truck chase. He drives his own car, rather than be chauffeured like his Colonel. Unfortunately, his downfall is that he is young (the youngest of all the officers examined here) and therefore presumably inexperienced, and thus makes a number of tactical blunders...such as his fatal attempt to pass Indy on the side of the road bordered by a giant chasm, after Indy already rammed him off the road once before.

These are only my opinions of the different officers, based upon my own observations. They're all great villains in their own way though. I love that they're all so different. :)

[oki9Sedo]

Regarding Dietrich and whether or not he's wimpy, I think that's a bit unfair since we never get to see him fight. And why would he? He's a colonel, presumably of the old-school when officers were supposed to be gentlemen and whatnot. Vogel and Dovchenko are borne of a new breed of officer, the kind unafraid to get down and dirty in the trenches with their men (Vogel is a WWI veteran and is a former professional athlete as per his entry on the Indy Wiki, if that makes any difference).

Here's how I view all three:

Colonel Herman Dietrich: Despite being a big, if not overly muscular, man, Dietrich is very much a gentleman, "brainy" type officer. Whether or not he's actually smart is a matter for debate, but what I mean is he's more of an intellectual man than a man of action. That's what he has soldiers for. He's the cloak, Toht is the dagger, if you will. Dietrich is also arguably the most arrogant officer, regal and proud. He may be a good leader from a tactical standpoint but despite his athletic build he's not a fighter. Nevertheless he has seen some action at some point in the past, judging by the scar across one cheek.

Colonel Antonin Dovchenko: Brute force and little else. While he isn't stupid at all, Dovchenko is clearly a very violent, "shoot first, ask questions later" sort of officer, who needs a more intelligent person like Spalko to keep him in check. His inability to see that Indy was obviously going for the big log, or at least to entertain the idea, and prepare for it, shows he's pretty singleminded about combat. He'll use the environment to his advantage if he can but focuses only on his opponent's defeat; he's blind to any surrounding or potential dangers (the log, the ants).

Colonel Ernst Vogel: The most well-balanced of the trio. Despite the novelization calling him a brute and using various other words to make him seem "big," Vogel is actually a fairly medium-sized guy. Like Dovchenko he uses the surrounding environment to his advantage (using the chain and shovel on the tank), but does him one better by anticipating things (he seemingly knew exactly where Indy and Henry would go after they left the burning dining room). His weakness is that he isn't as singleminded as Dovchenko, therefore something new entering the equation tends to disorient him; he's easily surprised and slow to react to things that catch him off guard. And also, despite being a courageous fighter, Vogel seems to overestimate his own prowess; he isn't as strong as he thinks he is and often looks before he leaps.

Bonus:

Major Gobler: He isn't a colonel but he's a Nazi military officer all the same. Much like Toht, he is the dagger to Dietrich's cloak. An energetic, confident man of very few words or opinions, he is basically just Dietrich's shadow (as the novelization so succinctly put it). Despite this, he is very much a take-charge kind of guy. Witness him in the truck chase. He drives his own car, rather than be chauffeured like his Colonel. Unfortunately, his downfall is that he is young (the youngest of all the officers examined here) and therefore presumably inexperienced, and thus makes a number of tactical blunders...such as his fatal attempt to pass Indy on the side of the road bordered by a giant chasm, after Indy already rammed him off the road once before.

These are only my opinions of the different officers, based upon my own observations. They're all great villains in their own way though. I love that they're all so different. :)

Excellent post, Kooshmeister, particularly what you said about Dietrich.

They're obviously all excellent Colonels, since they're all the leaders in top secret missions of huge importance (the Ark, the Holy Grail, the Roswell remains, the Crystal Skull)

[Rocket Surgeon]

Dovchenko was almost ruthless enough but wasted time swinging chains and not getting down to business. Vogel was a cartoon, suprised to see someone he was looking for...nice eyes in the zeppelin Wile E.Coyote !

Dietrich, would have them all shot and not have gotten his hands dirty. Dietrich was the only one savy enough not to be killed until the finale...not stupid ants and not riding out the drop of a slow moving tank.

(Vogel is a WWI veteran and is a former professional athlete as per his entry on the Indy Wiki, if that makes any difference).

Nah, the Wiki says all kinds of things, like Dennis Murren was Toht getting into the plane in San Fran and Pat Roach banged the gong in Temple of Doom or that Elsa won the silver medal in the 50 meter freestyle at the 1932 Summer Olympics...that General Ross was at Indy's wedding, (later to qualify that as in the comic)...so no the Wiki really doesn'tmake much difference.

[oki9Sedo]

Dovchenko was almost ruthless enough but wasted time swinging chains and not getting down to business.

I don't know, trying to beat Indy to death with a chain makes sense to me.

[Kooshmeister]

Nah, the Wiki says all kinds of things, like Dennis Murren was Toht getting into the plane in San Fran and Pat Roach banged the gong in Temple of Doom or that Elsa won the silver medal in the 50 meter freestyle at the 1932 Summer Olympics...that General Ross was at Indy's wedding, (later to qualify that as in the comic)...so no the Wiki really doesn'tmake much difference.

The Muren-as-Toht thing has been cleared up, and General Ross was at Indy's wedding....in the comic book. (EDIT: Just noticed you noticed that, my apologies.)

As for Vogel having been an athlete, I'd have to re-check his page, but it might have been sourced from the Ultimate Guide or something. I do know for a fact his first name Ernst is canon; it's in the comic, it just went unnoticed/unrecognized for years.

As a semi-regular contributor to the Indy Wiki, I try very hard to maintain a strict canon. Of course, just because what I submit has genuine sources, doesn't mean what others submit does, but although I can't control what other people put I fix whatever errors I find (within my admittedly limited field of expertise).

For instance, gotta love the guy who decided, for some reason, that every single Nazi at Tanis, from the second mechanic to the merciful soldier who lets Sallah go in the deleted scene, went aboard the sub to the island and thus died when the Ark was opened. That sub is a clown car! Er, clown sub.

[Rocket Surgeon]

As a semi-regular contributor to the Indy Wiki, I try very hard to maintain a strict canon. Of course, just because what I submit has genuine sources, doesn't mean what others submit does, but although I can't control what other people put I fix whatever errors I find (within my admittedly limited field of expertise).

Which is a better way of expressing what I did.

For instance, gotta love the guy who decided, for some reason, that every single Nazi at Tanis, from the second mechanic to the merciful soldier who lets Sallah go in the deleted scene, went aboard the sub to the island and thus died when the Ark was opened. That sub is a clown car! Er, clown sub.

One thing I didn't express was how funny some of those things really are! Love your Clown Car/Sub example! That KILLS me!

Please! If you you do nothing else start a thread of the crazy claims from the Indy-Wiki! That story made my day, THANK YOU!:up:

[Dark Horse]

In a straight up fist fight, I'd go with Dovchenko. If it was in a deathmatch scenario, I'd go with Vogel.

[Von Stalhein]

As for Vogel having been an athlete, I'd have to re-check his page, but it might have been sourced from the Ultimate Guide or something. I do know for a fact his first name Ernst is canon; it's in the comic, it just went unnoticed/unrecognized for years.He does wear an SA sports badge throughout the film. It was probably awared a decade or so earlier, since he is does not appear to be much of an athlete at all in the film.

[Indy Scout 117]

well, as for the Nazis, Vogel was the most fearsome colonel. Dietrich was a chump...didnt do much, at least compared to Vogel. Vogel would get in a fistfight while Dietrich seemed like he would make someone else (like the German Mechanic :p) do the fighting for him...but Dovchenko was the toughest hands down.

[Kyle]

Vogel! Hands down...

:hat:

[Corporal Kruger]

Vogel's elite SS training would whip Dovchenko's brute force anyday.

[oki9Sedo]

Vogel's elite SS training would whip Dovchenko's brute force anyday.

I don't know.....training can only get you so far when you're dealing with somebody with 50lbs of muscle more than you.

In any case, I'm sure Dovchenko's as well-trained - he's obviously an elite Colonel, given that he was chosen to infiltrate Area 51 and find the Crystal Skull.

[col.dietrich]

dietrich is not the fighting type, so i say dovchenko

[indyj0nes]

with weapons and distractions vogel would kick @$$, but in a fair fight with dovchenko he would get owned. diertritch would be ripped in two by dovchenko and just shot or something by vogel.

[indyj0nes]

Vogel wouldn't go into a fist fight, he would simply shoot Dovchenko.
Very Indyish.

My vote for Vogel.
i agree:up: