A High Five for Indy V!

[Pale Horse]

In true Pale Horse fashion, I will again reveal the fertile ground available for the screenwriters of Indy V, or as I like to call it Indiana Jones and the Pinch of Grace* ( http://www.theraider.net/community/fanfiction/scripts/realm_script.pdf)

Attached firmly to my belief in the artifact (http://raven.theraider.net/showthread.php?p=209423#post209423) in the ‘Tree of Life’, and my lament at the passing of previous writings to effectively use four ( http://raven.theraider.net/showthread.php?t=7896&highlight=symbolic) to wrap the series up, I will discourse here the use of 5 (FIVE) to perfect my wayward style before.

Once again our intrepid and execrable hero has lost his woman-his eternal prize, this time to cancer. (Feels like off-ing Jar jar binks, doesn't it). In true Raven Forum fashion, we find Indy at the bottom of a barrel. The year is 1959. The paramount logo fades into a seemingly Nepalese twilight but we see that it's really Mt. McKinley and Indy is in Alaska. (the 50th state, now ;)). Revelers are celebrating the joining of the union, but Indy is remembering Marion, with a picture of Mutt at a College in Turkey.

While Indy is down, a grizzled and aged Inuit approaches him and foretells our protagonist of a place where death does not exist. Skeptical, Indy listens, only because his new friend is pouring the whiskey now. Unlike the cynic in Raiders, Indy is patronizing. Regaled in true storytelling fashion is the myth of the five cardinals who escort one beyond death (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_life). Indy effaced and frail, passes out from a lack of eating for many days, and the Inuit carries him out of the bar.

Cut to Mutt, in Turkey. Now buried in the study of Ancient Babylon. Mutt is now a Muslim student in a class similar to the ones his dad used to teach. Mutt is about to venture to Eden (http://raven.theraider.net/showpost.php?p=428508&postcount=28) but he doesn't know it. Per the forgettable and insignificant professor, this site is one pillar of five on the planet that mark the Garden...and the entrance to a place that transcends death. Mutt is now riled up, and begins to research more as the Five Pillars of Islam now have a tangible and verifiable place in History, beyond religion. The one at this site is related to FASTING.

See what I did there? Mutt and Indy paralleled.

After the obligatory betrayal scene where Mutt is now used as a pawn (much like Henry was) we will see that Indy will have to pursue Mutt, to save him from his demise. Like Crusade it's not about the prize it's about the legacy. Only Mutt will see that this Garden, this 'artifact' will redeem his dad, though that was never Mutt's intent.

Now, I can go on with this treatment, and reveal the plot and the scenes etc....But let's just leave this at this: The Five Pillars of Islam, the Five Points of a Compass, The Five Visible planets, The Symbology of Torah, The harmony of the Perfect Fifth, The Pentagram, and the Five land masses of Pangaea. All will be tied together to point to the Tree of Life (http://raven.theraider.net/showpost.php?p=115791&postcount=15), once again. I will tie in the American (Lakota) Indians, The Mayans, the Chinese, The Desert People of Center of the World, and possibly in a nod to KotCS….the Aliens.

This outta be grand.

[Deadlock]

Fine numerological spitballing.

Hang it all on a four-act structure and write one of the exposition scenes... THEN we'll see if you have anything. ;)

However, I must warn you that I think a SERIOUS Indy film is less plausible than an ancient, photosensitive booby-trap. The new frontier is parody (unless there's a reboot).

[Robyn]

our intrepid and execrable hero has lost his woman-his eternal prize, this time to cancer. (Feels like off-ing Jar jar binks, doesn't it).


"What'd you say?"
http://d.yimg.com/kq/groups/22365395/hr/779968925/name/marionpan.jpg

[Gear]

"What'd you say?"
http://d.yimg.com/kq/groups/22365395/hr/779968925/name/marionpan.jpg



Whoa. This might get hot.

[deckard24]

Not bad!:hat: It definitely has an LC feel to it.

I've always wanted to see a more grizzled Indy, ala Unforgiven. I can see him now, nursing his broken heart with a bottle of whiskey, right out of the Cairo scene from Raiders.

My only issue is, I kind of doubt they'd off Marion, after going to the lengths of bringing her back for a hazy dream sequence wedding( I mean happy ending).

If they did though, who would be a replacement? They couldn't just leave him a widow, especially after losing his dad and Marcus too.

[Niteshade007]

I can actually see them killing Marion off.

It's an interesting idea, Pale Horse. Is Mutt going to go all crazy and start writing in an alien language on the board while Dwight...I mean, the teacher, looks on?

[Robyn]

I can actually see them killing Marion off.



Steven would never do that.

http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/4231/cairochase0004.jpg

[Crack that whip]

And I for one wouldn't want to see her killed off just to get rid of her.

[No Ticket]

I actually was very captivated throughout the entirety of the OP. Sounds like a very good premise for Indy V.

[Robyn]

And I for one wouldn't want to see her killed off just to get rid of her.

Thumbs up to you for that!!:hat:

[Violet]

I'm half surprised Sallah didn't make appearance in your idea, Pale. Coz he could considering what parts of the world the story takes place.

Marion doesn't need to be killed off, does she? I mean, she's about as much of a free spirit as Indy. Make her a journalist like in the comics or running the Raven's Nest and that's enough of an excuse to not have her in the film if you're so inclined.

But really what's with you (by that I mean Pale) and Deadlock always killing off Marion to cancer in these stories? Indy noir ain't for everyone.

[Robyn]

But really what's with you (by that I mean Pale) and Deadlock always killing off Marion to cancer in these stories?

YEAH! For real!

Love the new pic btw Violet!

[Rocket Surgeon]

hey, they killed off Marion in Raiders to bring her back.

Didn't you get the whole " five cardinals who escort one beyond death." part of his post, hell seems Henry Sr could come back as well...

[Deadlock]

But really what's with you (by that I mean Pale) and Deadlock always killing off Marion to cancer in these stories? Indy noir ain't for everyone.

"Always???" C'mon now, I've only done it once, four years ago. Y'all just need to let it go now.

Besides, I've since seen the error of my ways.

Any Indy projects I partcipate in will combine the best of Temple of Doom and Crystal Skull... they shall open with a musical number and end with a wedding. That's a promise.

[TheIndyOpinion]

I actually was very captivated throughout the entirety of the OP. Sounds like a very good premise for Indy V.

I agree. It's all very interesting, and I want to read more. I could live with the Marion death storyline if it's done right and it helps to develop Indy's (and Mutt's, for that matter) character. And I have no doubt that at the very least Spielberg would handle it the right way.

If we want something deeper and with more substance than KOTCS, Pale Horse is offering a very solid basis for it.

[DocWhiskey]

This actually sounds really great, Pale Horse. I love the fact that "5" is brought up so often but it seems to make sense. Really great.

[Pale Horse]

Any Indy projects <edit for length>... shall open with a musical number and end with a wedding.

Since the Lakota will feature prominently in the film, we certainly could make a case for a Blame Canada number, and garner an Oscar nomination as well.... ;)

Didn't you get the whole " five cardinals who escort one beyond death." part of his post, hell seems Henry Sr could come back as well...

Not Henry, per se. Unlike old men with nostalgia, I don’t like the retread too much. Marion is dead. Period. That’s why we find Indy at the bottom of a fifth. The less exposition the better, that way the audience is rapt with despair along with the protagonist. We’re there with him, and want his redemption just as much (because we need it for ourselves, too)

As far as the cardinal posts go, this is one of the twist/key plot points. 'Everyone' thinks a compass only has four points, North-South-East-West...but in actuality it has five. The Lakota speak of this along with other more ancient cultures.

[Rocket Surgeon]

Not Henry, per se. Unlike old men with nostalgia, I don’t like the retread too much. Marion is dead. Period. That’s why we find Indy at the bottom of a fifth. The less exposition the better, that way the audience is rapt with despair along with the protagonist. We’re there with him, and want his redemption just as much (because we need it for ourselves, too)

As far as the cardinal posts go, this is one of the twist/key plot points. 'Everyone' thinks a compass only has four points, North-South-East-West...but in actuality it has five. The Lakota speak of this along with other more ancient cultures.

OOOhhh, end Skull with a wedding, start Tree with a funeral. You're killing the lovers out here man!

I was working on an idea where Mutt becomes obsessed with the fortune and glory thing, (after Indy's whole school/support self lines) and the character arc concerns Indy having to balance him out. The become rivals for a while, almost like the sense of loss we get from Marion "dying" in Raiders, only to come back. In the end, the McGuffin is similar to the mirror in Harry Potter and the ring/palantir/galadriels mirror in Lord of the Rings where Mutt (or anyone) can converse with those who have "gone before" and glimpse future pivot points in their lives. An opportunity to have a cameo with substance and drive the plot and a character's arc. Mutt could get another point of view regarding his father without it coming from Indy or Marion blah blah blah...and give him the perspective to set him straight, (so to say)...not that he's gay.

[Deadlock]

Since the Lakota will feature prominently in the film, we certainly could make a case for a Blame Canada number, and garner an Oscar nomination as well.... ;)

How about a Five Guys (http://www.fiveguys.com/home.aspx) promotional tie-in? :p

(Pale, if your serious about all this, just write an original script. You're wasting your time on Indy.)

[Pale Horse]

I've heard of Three Guys Pizza

http://travisholmes.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/multiplicity87.jpg

But never Five Guys.

Spoiler Alert: Michael Keaton is cast as the arch nemesis in this outing

[Robyn]

OOOhhh, end Skull with a wedding, start Tree with a funeral. You're killing the lovers out here man!


Yeah.. what a brilliant idea!!! In Indy 4 let's have Indy be really down because he thinks he's lost his chance in life at having a family, then we'll give him family and let Indy finally get the woman that was perfect for him and we'll end it with Indy being happier than he's ever been at his wedding... THEN we'll make Indy 5 and destroy everything we built up in Indy 4 and kill off his wife! It's brilliant!!!!:rolleyes: NOT!!!!:down:

I think if anyone seriously believes that Steven would kill off Marion's character than you should go back and watch the behind the scenes interviews from Crystal Skull.. The cast was so overly excited to have Karen back, or you can read the last issue of the Indiana Jones magazine, Shia recalls the first time Karen appeared on set "Everyone had tears in their eyes." Wake up and smell the coffee.. whether you love Marion or hate her, there is no way Steven would build up her Return and give them a happy wedding just to kill her character off and leave Indy sad wifeless, you missed the whole point of the wedding!


http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/3632/title1xvid0001.jpg
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/6152/behindthescenesfun0001.jpg

And the Marion haters can go ahead and start bashing me now if you like, I just wanted to rant for minute! I'm done now:hat:

[James]

And the Marion haters can go ahead and start bashing me now if you like

As Indy would say, "Take it easy." ;)

Spielberg and Lucas would never kill off Marion, because it wouldn't be true to the genre. There's very little pathos in the world of Indiana Jones, just as there was very little in the films which inspired it.

Lucas has known for years that today's fans prefer a darker vision of their childhood heroes. In addition to notorious fan scripts which reduced Marion to an alcoholic (Sons of Darkness) and Indy to a man full of regrets (Sword of Arthur), Lucas was able to gauge this firsthand via the SW prequels. Yet despite this, KOTCS contained some of the lightest touches in the series- because that's what was dictated by the genre.

(None of which is intended as a comment on the OP- just a little reassurance to ronicle that she doesn't need to worry so much about losing Marion. :hat: )

[Stoo]

As far as the cardinal posts go, this is one of the twist/key plot points. 'Everyone' thinks a compass only has four points, North-South-East-West...but in actuality it has five. The Lakota speak of this along with other more ancient cultures.The fifth cardinal point is the centre.:) We're on a similar wavelength, Master Horse, as I was imagining (http://raven.theraider.net/showpost.php?p=430753&postcount=6) Marion getting killed.

And the Marion haters can go ahead and start bashing me now if you like, I just wanted to rant for minute! I'm done nowWanting Marion to die in Indy 5 does not make one a "Marion hater". (I don't think any Indy fan "hates" Marion.) Anyway, what's with all the Spielberg business? He's the director, not the writer of the story and, furthermore, unless you share the same brain, you don't really know what S.S. would/wouldn't do.

[Pale Horse]

ACT I

Indy is seen as a washed up old failure - Indy Noir as this forum would have it. There, in Alaska, he is comforted by booze and by a nurturing 'Indian' and presented with the possibility of resolution to the death and absence in his life

Enter The Indian
Enter the death of Marion
Enter the abandonment of Mutt to a far away land


Cut to Mutt

Presented with the opportunity to find 'the garden' though not as we know it.
In Forum like-mindedness - Mutt becomes drunk with Fortune and Glory
Lust of Flesh - Money
Lust of Eyes - Fame
Pride of Life - Reconcile himself to dad, and family legacy


Presentation of Nemesis
The Bilderbergs/CIA/RIAA/KGB N.W.O. type with intent on human capital

The power of to be like gods (tree of life)
The power of ultimate weapon (flaming sword)
The power to influence the whole world (possible alien cops)



Mutt unknowingly, then knowingly becomes a pawn:

Reference to KOTCS "God's Head is not like that, man"
Mutt recalls a story of god's power from his dad (RotLA reference)
Mutt decides he's not ready to suffer god's fate



Indy awakens in Alaska, 'feels' Mutt and decides to hearken to Indian calling

ACT II

The quest is on. Indy must reverse engineer the clues to the location to the garden of Eden with the information included in the Original Post (http://raven.theraider.net/showpost.php?p=435563&postcount=1) while at the same time Mutt is discovering them as part of his Mandatory Indenture.


Insert details here I am not at liberty to disclose, but piece-meal of the Raven's scraps will fill in a lot of the 'holes' I'm sure the skeptics will point out.


ACT III

Indy and Mutt are on a collision course to the Four Rivers (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%207:1;&version=31;). The five pillars have been realized, the five points have been followed, and the five elements have been combined on the pentagram married to the Torah. Again the five land masses have been redlined in the Act above. Now comes the finale

Indy and Mutt become enemies, due to the BCRK-NWO above.
Indy can't lose Mutt to Eden's Fate
Skywalker Ranch provides great CGI of Eden and Sword powers against said BCRK-NWO
The Tree of Life and its mythology is revealed in the redemption with Father and Son

[Crack that whip]

The fifth cardinal point is the centre.:) We're on a similar wavelength, Master Horse, as I was imagining (http://raven.theraider.net/showpost.php?p=430753&postcount=6) Marion getting killed.

Wanting Marion to die in Indy 5 does not make one a "Marion hater".

Indeed, but wanting her to die and suggesting it'd feel like "offing Jar Jar Binks" (as the OP did) darn well might, wouldn't you say? ;)

To elaborate further on what I said earlier... I'd actually be open to the idea of killing Marion, if it were done in a way that genuinely served the story, further enriched the character of Indy, etc., and/or allowed us to at least perceive a satisfying period of marital bliss (or at least contentment) for our hero and heroine, united at last after several decades and at least a couple false starts. I think I'd want a fifth movie that could be watched right after the fourth without souring the ending of the fourth (the way the beginning of, say, Alien3 soured the ending of Aliens for many fans of that series - not that it did for everyone, of course, and many people hated Alien3 for other reasons anyway while continuing to love Aliens, but still). And the one thing I absolutely don't want is for Marion to be killed off just so she'll be "out of the way," whether to simply avoid dragging "the wife" along on an adventure, or to allow for a new romantic lead for those viewers who quickly tire of any particular one.

[Niteshade007]

And the Marion haters can go ahead and start bashing me now if you like, I just wanted to rant for minute! I'm done now:hat:

I definately don't want Marion to die, and while I didn't care for her lack of development in Skull, I don't consider myself a "hater." She's still easily my favorite Indy girl. But I wouldn't say it's beyond the realm of possibility that she gets bumped off.

Spielberg and Lucas would never kill off Marion, because it wouldn't be true to the genre. There's very little pathos in the world of Indiana Jones, just as there was very little in the films which inspired it.

Keep in mind though that they've killed off a love interest before in the movies (Elsa), in the books (his wife), and at least one that I can think of from the TV show (the girl from Treasure of the Peacock's Eye). They also bumped off his dad and Brody. Sure, one of the actor's was dead and the other uninterested, but it's not like killing off a beloved character or any character that Indy loves is unheard of.

[James]

it's not like killing off a beloved character or any character that Indy loves is unheard of.

It's not unheard of, but as you pointed out, it's generally due to practical concerns. (After all, Elsa was a Nazi! :D )

Once they brought Marion back for KOTCS, I think it ended any chance of them killing the character off. This just isn't that series. Judging by what has come before, I would expect them to draw inspiration from a B movie like Another Thin Man before a modern sequel like Rocky Balboa.

[Niteshade007]

But consider what Nora was reduced to when it came to the Thin Man movies. She was a mommy who did nothing. By the third one, she had lost that spark of intrigue, and it became more about her taking care of their child. In one of them I remember she snuck into a locker room to do some investigating, but other than that she was no longer a detective or an equal. In Song of the Thin Man did she even do anything remotely interesting? We've already seen that they don't know what to do with Marion (well, that's not entirely true...she can drive a car...) why drag it out any further? I'd love to see the old, spunky Marion return, but if they bring her back I'm sure we'll see the progression Myrna Loy's character took, from a great, strong character into a pathetic sidekick with nothing intersting to say or do.

[Robyn]

But consider what Nora was reduced to when it came to the Thin Man movies. She was a mommy who did nothing. By the third one, she had lost that spark of intrigue, and it became more about her taking care of their child. In one of them I remember she snuck into a locker room to do some investigating, but other than that she was no longer a detective or an equal. In Song of the Thin Man did she even do anything remotely interesting? We've already seen that they don't know what to do with Marion (well, that's not entirely true...she can drive a car...) why drag it out any further? I'd love to see the old, spunky Marion return, but if they bring her back I'm sure we'll see the progression Myrna Loy's character took, from a great, strong character into a pathetic sidekick with nothing interesting to say or do.

One of the things that was the most ridiculous is when Pale referred to Marion's character as "Jar Jar Binks"!!!???:rolleyes: :down: :mad: I am glad to hear that you don't hate Marion, but since Mutt is all grown up, she doesn't have to take the mommy role, I was disappointed with the way they gave her nothing to do in kotcs too. BUT it is still possible they can bring the Marion we saw in Raiders back again, you have to admit that! All we need is a good writer who knows how to handle Marion's character like Kasdan did, she doesn't have to be the wife that does nothing, she could be an awesome partner just like she was in Raiders, and THAT is what I'm hoping for! Also you have to remember that Elsa died because she was a two faced Nazi, Deidre was only in a book, and they did want Connery back for his role but he declined.... Karen has already declared that she would never turn down a role in Indy, so there is no problem in that department ;)

Oh and thanks for the reassuring words James ;)

[Rocket Surgeon]

One of the things that was the most ridiculous is when Pale referred to Marion's character as "Jar Jar Binks"!

Relax, we all know the only mate to the universally hated character in Star Wars is the most hated character in Indiana Jones:Willie Scott.

Now there's a sitcom! He can bumble and break her porcelain collectibles and she can scream and yell!

since Mutt is all grown up, she doesn't have to take the mommy role, I was disappointed with the way they gave her nothing to do in kotcs too. BUT it is still possible they can bring the Marion we saw in Raiders back again, you have to admit that! All we need is a good writer who knows how to handle Marion's character like Kasdan did, she doesn't have to be the wife that does nothing, she could be an awesome partner just like she was in Raiders, and THAT is what I'm hoping for!

She could be an awesome partner, but she has to be played as a liability because she's someone Indy cares about, (and it would be an Indy movie after all). If she somehow sacrificed herself for Mutt, (she doesn't have to die really) it could work...but the violence can't be cartoony. There has to be some consequence...unfortunately why CS failed.

The reason you care so much for her is that they were getting beat up/thrown around...and shot, not shot AT, SHOT! (well Indy was anyway).

[Robyn]

Relax, we all know the only mate to the universally hated character in Star Wars is the most hated character in Indiana Jones:Willie Scott.

Now there's a sitcom! He can bumble and break her porcelain collectibles and she can scream and yell!

LOL:hat:

She could be an awesome partner, but she has to be played as a liability because she's someone Indy cares about, The reason you care so much for her is that they were getting beat up/thrown around...and shot, not shot AT, SHOT!

I agree with you there...

(and it would be an Indy movie after all). If she somehow sacrificed herself for Mutt, (she doesn't have to die really) it could work...but the violence can't be cartoony. There has to be some consequence...unfortunately why CS failed.



Can you give me an example of a scene? You must have some idea in your head.. So you want her to get the crap beat out of her or shot at and have the audience think she died only to have her come back like in Raiders, is that what you're thinking?

[Pale Horse]

Marion in KOTCS = JarJar in Phantom Menace. The two were only included (respectfully) to show the infantile and innocent perspective of a story that was both unnecessary and unwanted.

How anyone can say that Marion in KOTCS is a compelling and story advancing character with depth and interest is beyond me.

Ronicle, I have the deepest respect for you and love the threads and contribution you make. I also sympathize with your love of Marion, Indy's supposed first. But I can not take the film canon and believe that Marion in Raiders and Marion in KOTCS as one and the same. The ditzy mom in kingdom must die.

I also believe it would not work to martyr Marion for Mutt; that would be like making Jar Jar a planetary ambassador. It just doesn't work.

[Rocket Surgeon]

..........

[Rocket Surgeon]

Can you give me an example of a scene? You must have some idea in your head.. So you want her to get the crap beat out of her or shot at and have the audience think she died only to have her come back like in Raiders, is that what you're thinking?

I'm not for repeating Raiders, (fakesies!) or Crusade, (whew! just in time!). I think they have to take a beating...in SOME manner the violence/threat has to be believeable. SOMEONE has to die or get mutilated/maimed/disfigured! There HAS to be consequence...and not just to some peripheral character. We have to see it in the act...not just a bunch of dead bodies and the SOUND of gunfire.

Whatever form this takes, I don't know yet...but this cartoon S#!t has to end!

I also believe it would not work to martyr Marion for Mutt; that would be like making Jar Jar a planetary ambassador. It just doesn't work.

...ah, where there's a will...

[Robyn]

How anyone can say that Marion in KOTCS is a compelling and story advancing character with depth and interest is beyond me.

Ronicle, I have the deepest respect for you and love the threads and contribution you make. I also sympathize with your love of Marion, Indy's supposed first. But I can not take the film canon and believe that Marion in Raiders and Marion in KOTCS as one and the same. The ditzy mom in kingdom must die.



I agree with on somethings but absolutely not the part where you think Marion's character should be killed off Pale Horse! You are absolutely right that the Marion we saw in kotcs shouldn't come back, but the Marion we saw in Raiders can and should come back!! Why can't you see how cool it could be if they brought the Raiders Marion back as Indy's perfect partner?! Like I said Mutt is an adult now, she doesn't have to be the mommy or a silly tagalong wife! All we need is Kasdan or someone as good, Kasdan *knows* how Marion's character should be written! But thanks for the sympathy Pale, I do appreciate it :hat:

I'm not for repeating Raiders, (fakesies!) or Crusade, (whew! just in time!). I think they have to take a beating...in SOME manner the violence/threat has to be believeable. SOMEONE has to die or get mutilated/maimed/disfigured! There HAS to be consequence...and not just to some peripheral character. We have to see it in the act...not just a bunch of dead bodies and the SOUND of gunfire.

Whatever form this takes, I don't know yet...but this cartoon S#!t has to end!



Well when you come up with a scene Rocket let me know, you know I love your ideas, as long as it doesn't involve killing off Marion(without bringing her back) I want to hear it!

[RedeemedChild]

Marion in KOTCS = JarJar in Phantom Menace. The two were only included (respectfully) to show the infantile and innocent perspective of a story that was both unnecessary and unwanted.

How anyone can say that Marion in KOTCS is a compelling and story advancing character with depth and interest is beyond me.

Ronicle, I have the deepest respect for you and love the threads and contribution you make. I also sympathize with your love of Marion, Indy's supposed first. But I can not take the film canon and believe that Marion in Raiders and Marion in KOTCS as one and the same. The ditzy mom in kingdom must die.

I also believe it would not work to martyr Marion for Mutt; that would be like making Jar Jar a planetary ambassador. It just doesn't work.

Honestly I don't like Jar Jar Binks, however Marion is on a whole different platform. Marion Ravenwood is one of my favorite Indiana Jones Franchise characters and I like her.

I can't see why some people dislike Marion and Mutt. I think that Mutt is a nice addition to the franchise and I don't think it would be a wise decision for Marion to be killed off either. While I think that Marion should play a role in the next Indiana Jones movie I do believe that her role should be more reserved and less prominent than it was in Kingdom of the Crystal Skull.

What I'm trying to say is that her role in Indiana Jones 5 should be like that of Clark's mother in Smallville.

[Robyn]

Honestly I don't like Jar Jar Binks, however Marion is on a whole different platform. Marion Ravenwood is one of my favorite Indiana Jones Franchise characters and I like her.

I can't see why some people dislike Marion and Mutt. I think that Mutt is a nice addition to the franchise and I don't think it would be a wise decision for Marion to be killed off either. While I think that Marion should play a role in the next Indiana Jones movie I do believe that her role should be more reserved and less prominent than it was in Kingdom of the Crystal Skull.

What I'm trying to say is that her role in Indiana Jones 5 should be like that of Clark's mother in Smallville.

I like Mutt, I just didn't like his attitude in kotcs, it pissed me off, it was better at the wedding though, much less of an A-hole at that part..

That's just what I'm saying though! Why does Marion have to be "the mom" if Mutt is all grown up, why can't she go back to being Indy's kick-ass partner like in Raiders!!!?? I don't want her role reduced or taken away, I want the Raiders Marion back!

[Pale Horse]

This discussion demonstrates why noir is always touted by venerated members (past and present) of this forum.

Tough gritty soul wrenching performances always come from characters who experience loss. Marion was a fireball in Raiders, because (as she was presented by the screenwriter) she lost her dad, and Indy too...that's how we found in the Raven Bar. Lost and empty. That made her real.

Mutt had no loss in his life either. The story arc shown he had an absent (step) father in Collin (Williams) and a loopy mother. He's an adult adolescent at best, mimicking James Dean 'just to be bad'....

Surely he's privileged, but no real loss.

Indy V needs to be filled with loss. Lots of it. Like Rocket says, real consequence, real emotion, real pain. Only then will we find our hero redeemed and will we get the redemption we're looking for.

It's the only way back into the garden, so to speak. (For when you eat of the tree, you will surly die...) That is why I high five this plan.

[Rocket Surgeon]

Indy V needs to be filled with loss. Lots of it. Like Rocket says, real consequence, real emotion, real pain. Only then will we find our hero redeemed and will we get the redemption we're looking for.

It's the only way back into the garden, so to speak. (For when you eat of the tree, you will surly die...) That is why I high five this plan.

Not just lip service!

Hear hear!

[James]

But consider what Nora was reduced to when it came to the Thin Man movies. She was a mommy who did nothing. By the third one, she had lost that spark of intrigue, and it became more about her taking care of their child.

But why would you expect them to imitate the later entries, as opposed to the early ones? I mentioned Another at random, since that was an instance where both had to travel for an adventure. I could've easily said the first or second, though.

The later films downplayed Nora's crimefighting involvement, but they still retained an offbeat relationship between the two. After all, Nick had always taken pains to keep Nora out of the case anyway, since she wasn't really a detective. (If anything, it was Nick Jr. who became a non-issue in the series. He was completely MIA in The Thin Man Goes Home- a film in which you'd expect his inclusion to be a no-brainer.)

If Lucas and Spielberg are trying to find a way to involve Marion in the adventure, doesn't it seem likely for them to say, "Hey, maybe we could approach it like a Thin Man movie?".

It's certainly more logical than expecting them to say, "You know what would be great? If we made this really dark and somber, like the recent Batman, Bond, and Rocky films. That's what is popular right now, so maybe we should modernize Indy as well?"

[RedeemedChild]

This discussion demonstrates why noir is always touted by venerated members (past and present) of this forum.

Tough gritty soul wrenching performances always come from characters who experience loss. Marion was a fireball in Raiders, because (as she was presented by the screenwriter) she lost her dad, and Indy too...that's how we found in the Raven Bar. Lost and empty. That made her real.

Mutt had no loss in his life either. The story arc shown he had an absent (step) father in Collin (Williams) and a loopy mother. He's an adult adolescent at best, mimicking James Dean 'just to be bad'....

Surely he's privileged, but no real loss.

Indy V needs to be filled with loss. Lots of it. Like Rocket says, real consequence, real emotion, real pain. Only then will we find our hero redeemed and will we get the redemption we're looking for.

It's the only way back into the garden, so to speak. (For when you eat of the tree, you will surly die...) That is why I high five this plan.

That's a nice way of looking at it Pale Horse.

I for one, would like Indiana Jones 5 to be have a Star Trek II: The Wrath of Kahn feel to it or for maybe have a story plot similar to that of Star Trek III: The Search For Spock, in which something precious to Mutt is lost and must be regained.

For example:

Indy 5 could open up in a very mythological setting behind the stone cold walls of a Gothic/Medieval castle in which a cloaked figure is vowing to overtake the world and plunge it into eternal darkness and escape her imprisonment.

Back in the modern world Mutt is riding about on his motorcycle when he notices a broken bridge up ahead and then stops on the brink of the washed out and broken stucture and dismounts from his bike. There on the ground beside him is a bag with a note attached to it informing the reader that inside is a box that contains vast evils and must not be opened for it imprisons the power of darkness.

Howbeit our young and brash Mutt thinks that it's all a hoax and opens this box and unleashes great chaos and the rise of the evil. Marion has been captured by the Dark Guardians and Mutt with Indiana Jones as his mentor must grow up and rescue her in less than 48 hours and return the dangerous artifact AKA "Pandora's Box" to the abyss which is none other than Bermuda's Triangle.

[James]

Tough gritty soul wrenching performances always come from characters who experience loss.

Of course, Indy loses more in the first act of KOTCS than he has in any previous film: His friends, his country, his reputation, his livelihood, his family, etc. Whereas Marion sought to get back to the US in ROTLA, Indy willingly decides to abandon it.

[RedeemedChild]

Of course, Indy loses more in the first act of KOTCS than he has in any previous film: His friends, his country, his reputation, his livelihood, his family, etc. Whereas Marion sought to get back to the US in ROTLA, Indy willingly decides to abandon it.

While Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull was a good film as far as just watching a movie for pure entertainment is concerned it had no where moral benefit. The movie had a poorly written script and in a way it seemed as if the whole movie was just trown together without any real thought or analytical thinking or even logic for that matter.

When one watches a movie they should come away feeling good about what they've just watched. A person should be able to say "I really enjoyed that movie and not only was I entertained but I was educated and inspired to think deeply about social, political, historical and everyday life matters."

At lest that is my opinion and that is why I enjoy Star Trek because that is exactly what it causes me and others that I know to say after watching a Star Trek program or movie and the same goes for National Treasure, Jurassic Park, David Copperfield and movies like The Day After Tomorrow or The Day the Earth Stood Still. The first three Indiana Jones movies also did that for me and it was because of Indiana Jones that I became a serious viewer of the History Channel and National Geographic Channel. It was also due to Indiana Jones that I took a renewed interest in the Biblical stories in the Bible such as Noah's Ark and the Staff of Moses along with the Garden of Eden and respected Biblical/Historical sites such as Jerusalem and the Dead Sea.

As far Kingdom of the Crystal Skull is concerned while the movie was indeed enjoyable it did not do much for the human mind as far giving the viewer something meaningful to go away with. On the other hand I've head some people say it was a death blow to the Indiana Jones franchise.

Furthermore for parents who wanted to introduce their children to Indiana Jones it was a real back stab because of the unnecessary over the top use of profanity. I applaud J.J. Abrams Star Trek because it was a better attempt at reviving and introducing a well loved franchise to the a new generation. The movie has no where near as much profanity as KOTCS did and it was stimulated the viewers mind.

Hopefully Indiana Jones 5 will be much better.

[Robyn]

Furthermore for parents who wanted to introduce their children to Indiana Jones it was a real back stab because of the unnecessary over the top use of profanity. The movie has no where near as much profanity as KOTCS did and it was stimulated the viewers mind.

Hopefully Indiana Jones 5 will be much better.

kotcs had too much profanity?? There was wayy more profanity in Raiders.. It didn't bother me, I thought most of the time when profanity was used in Raiders it was in a funny way

[James]

When one watches a movie they should come away feeling good about what they've just watched. A person should be able to say "I really enjoyed that movie and not only was I entertained but I was educated and inspired to think deeply about social, political, historical and everyday life matters."

Well, this is really a discussion for another thread. My point was that, regardless of how much loss is featured in the plot, it's still going to be unfolding in an Indiana Jones movie. And like it or not, they're simply not that deep.

Fans have been lamenting the camp and pulp factors for over 25 years and three sequels. At what point is it okay to acknowledge, "You know, that actually is a major part of the formula."?

Prior to KOTCS, the Indy sequels were almost treated like stylistic experiments by many fans. They expected Indy 4 to be a more direct successor to ROTLA as opposed to more of the same. It's easy to understand how this happened, since the franchise had been dormant for so long.

However, KOTCS clearly established that the controversial aspects of TOD and LC were no fluke. For better or worse, this is how Lucas and Spielberg view the character (and universe) of Indiana Jones.

But again, this is veering off on a tangent better suited to a more general Indy 5 thread. I'm just surprised that so many still expect Indy 5 to deviate from established canon.

[TheIndyOpinion]

I completely agree with what you're saying, James. And I certainly do not EXPECT them to veer from what they've been doing.

But I will say that if they did turn things in a different direction, while striking a balance between too dark and heavy and too light and campy, then in my opinion they could make something very special with Indy V.

[Pale Horse]

...it's all in the details of the Original Post...

[Deadlock]

Honestly I don't like Jar Jar Binks, however Marion is on a whole different platform. Marion Ravenwood is one of my favorite Indiana Jones Franchise characters and I like her.

Good grief. :rolleyes:

I hate to get didactic, but you've left me no choice...

Burn this into your brains: Good storytelling is not, not, NOT about showing likeable characters in agreeable situations. CONFLICT (and its emotional effect on the audience) is the heart of drama.

(It's okay if you can't get your mind around that... Neither could the Indy IV development team. Somewhere along the way, somebody swapped in the word "SPECTACLE" where I had "conflict", and thus...)

So, whether or not Pale Horse, or I, or anyone else LIKES Marion, should NOT matter in considering if killing her off is a good story idea. Actually, let me correct myself... because the point of a film or screenplay is to get an emotional response, it is often beneficial (and I would argue NECESSARY) to kill a likeable character because they are likeable and because of the effect that that has on the story (and thereby the audience). Yes, kids, even in mainstream movies. What would the Fugitive, Old Yeller, Braveheart, or Gladiator be without the death of one or more palatable characters? (Which is not to say that killing a good guy is the ONLY way to create conflict, or that doing so can't be silly, ineffective, manipulative, trite, or otherwise botched hideously.)

Indy V needs to be filled with loss. Lots of it. Like Rocket says, real consequence, real emotion, real pain. Only then will we find our hero redeemed and will we get the redemption we're looking for.

All the ooshy-skooshy Marion wuv in this thread only reinforces the dramatic potential of offing her. I wouldn't do it out of spite, but as a splash of cold water in the face of an audience made complacent by low-conflict, consequence-free movies (cough *Crystal Skull* cough).

That said, despair not fuzzy-wuzzy types... it is my belief that Master Pale Horse remains a Quixotic figure (http://raven.theraider.net/showthread.php?t=7899), and that all the painful possibilities of real drama will be kept a safe distance from any future chapters in the Indy saga. The Neighborhood of Make-Believe is safe. The ultimate victory is yours.

[James]

But I will say that if they did turn things in a different direction, while striking a balance between too dark and heavy and too light and campy, then in my opinion they could make something very special with Indy V.

I'm in agreement with that, and actually do expect them to try a different approach next time out. I just have a feeling it won't deviate too far from the established formula. They may tone down the lighter moments, but it will likely be very similar to the previous "Indiana Jones and the" movies. The fact that Spielberg believed KOTCS was constructed "just like" the previous entries suggests as much.

Lucas and Spielberg simply come to the table with a completely different agenda than the average fan. The latter is generally more concerned with incorporating what he learned in film school than what Doc Savage encountered 70 years ago. I'm not suggesting either approach is less valid, just that there's a rather obvious- and fundamental- difference at work.

[Crack that whip]

Good grief. :rolleyes:

I hate to get didactic, but you've left me no choice...

Burn this into your brains: Good storytelling is not, not, NOT about showing likeable characters in agreeable situations. CONFLICT (and its emotional effect on the audience) is the heart of drama.

(It's okay if you can't get your mind around that... Neither could the Indy IV development team. Somewhere along the way, somebody swapped in the word "SPECTACLE" where I had "conflict", and thus...)

So, whether or not Pale Horse, or I, or anyone else LIKES Marion, should NOT matter in considering if killing her off is a good story idea. Actually, let me correct myself... because the point of a film or screenplay is to get an emotional response, it is often beneficial (and I would argue NECESSARY) to kill a likeable character because they are likeable and because of the effect that that has on the story (and thereby the audience). Yes, kids, even in mainstream movies. What would the Fugitive, Old Yeller, Braveheart, or Gladiator be without the death of one or more palatable characters? (Which is not to say that killing a good guy is the ONLY way to create conflict, or that doing so can't be silly, ineffective, manipulative, trite, or otherwise botched hideously.)



All the ooshy-skooshy Marion wuv in this thread only reinforces the dramatic potential of offing her. I wouldn't do it out of spite, but as a splash of cold water in the face of an audience made complacent by low-conflict, consequence-free movies (cough *Crystal Skull* cough).

That said, despair not fuzzy-wuzzy types... it is my belief that Master Pale Horse remains a Quixotic figure (http://raven.theraider.net/showthread.php?t=7899), and that all the painful possibilities of real drama will be kept a safe distance from any future chapters in the Indy saga. The Neighborhood of Make-Believe is safe. The ultimate victory is yours.


All that's fine and good, but none of that appeared to be the stated purpose of killing her off in the OP. The OP posited it would be like killing off Jar Jar Binks, the single most despised character in the entire Lucasfilm universe. This assumes that a) Marion actually is widely regarded with anything like the contempt felt in many, many corners for Jar Jar, and b) that killing off a character (ostensibly a "good" character in the narrative, yet one for which it's understood by the filmmakers the audience wants to see offed simply because they find her annoying) will yield dramatic weight like of the sort you ably describe. I don't think either of these assumptions is well-supported.

I also get the feeling at least some of the desires occasionally expressed here (not necessarily by you or the original poster, but generally) to see Marion exit the picture in Indiana Jones and the Fifth Movie are motivated not by a sincere desire for dramatic weight, but rather to avoid seeing their hero "tied down" to just one love interest for the remainder of the series. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I think some viewers feel a bit put out at the idea their hero won't continue to make new conquests indefinitely, and that the string of fresh new twentysomething flavors of the month has come to an end (yeah, I know Kate Capshaw was 30 by the time her installment was released, but still).

I'm more than willing to see bad things happen to good people in the name of good drama; as I've said before, I think The Young Indiana Jones Chronicles is quite possibly the finest Indy production since Raiders of the Lost Ark, and there's more darkness and loss there than in the movies. I just think that if Marion were to be killed off, it should have serious weight and not be blown off, or done for the wrong reasons in the first place. I have my doubts as to whether that would happen, and also whether at least some fans (again, not necessarily the ones in this thread) might wish for it because they honestly want a movie with more dramatic weight.

[Robyn]

Good grief. :rolleyes:

I hate to get didactic, but you've left me no choice...

Burn this into your brains: Good storytelling is not, not, NOT about showing likeable characters in agreeable situations. CONFLICT (and its emotional effect on the audience) is the heart of drama.

(It's okay if you can't get your mind around that... Neither could the Indy IV development team. Somewhere along the way, somebody swapped in the word "SPECTACLE" where I had "conflict", and thus...)

So, whether or not Pale Horse, or I, or anyone else LIKES Marion, should NOT matter in considering if killing her off is a good story idea. Actually, let me correct myself... because the point of a film or screenplay is to get an emotional response, it is often beneficial (and I would argue NECESSARY) to kill a likeable character because they are likeable and because of the effect that that has on the story (and thereby the audience). Yes, kids, even in mainstream movies. What would the Fugitive, Old Yeller, Braveheart, or Gladiator be without the death of one or more palatable characters? (Which is not to say that killing a good guy is the ONLY way to create conflict, or that doing so can't be silly, ineffective, manipulative, trite, or otherwise botched hideously.)



All the ooshy-skooshy Marion wuv in this thread only reinforces the dramatic potential of offing her. I wouldn't do it out of spite, but as a splash of cold water in the face of an audience made complacent by low-conflict, consequence-free movies (cough *Crystal Skull* cough).

That said, despair not fuzzy-wuzzy types... it is my belief that Master Pale Horse remains a Quixotic figure (http://raven.theraider.net/showthread.php?t=7899), and that all the painful possibilities of real drama will be kept a safe distance from any future chapters in the Indy saga. The Neighborhood of Make-Believe is safe. The ultimate victory is yours.

Hey! Raiders was AWESOME without the death of Indy or Marion and it wasn't fuzzy wuzzy! Unless it's like Rocket said where they kill a loved character only to bring them back.. I just disagree.. I think you guys are making Indy wayy too dark, I want some drama-action too but it can't be too dark! Indy is suppose to still keep a certain amount of lightheartedness to keep it fun.. and even though Mutt isn't one of my favorite I still would never kill him off! You guys need to stop being such downers! I mean I sure don't feel like being depressed after I'm done watching an Indy movie!

And "tied down"??? Marion didn't tie Indy down in Raiders! That's why she's his perfect partner

[Deadlock]

I just think that if Marion were to be killed off, it should have serious weight and not be blown off, or done for the wrong reasons in the first place. I have my doubts as to whether that would happen, and also whether at least some fans (again, not necessarily the ones in this thread) might wish for it because they honestly want a movie with more dramatic weight.

I agree.

Ultimately, not only is a dark Indy 5 unlikely, but it's also probably wrong even if the Powers That Be were amenable to the idea. A heavy Indy 5 would likely be an over-correction that would leave a bad taste after the preceeding meringue of Crystal Skull. The bar has been set, and with the financial rewards garnered by the last flick, there's no reason to raise it.

[Deadlock]

Crud. Accidental double-post.

[Robyn]

Alright that's it... I've had it.. this thread has just gotten too dark and depression.. I'm gonna have to add some love in here.


http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/7431/15194445.jpghttp://img193.imageshack.us/img193/5492/image77w.jpg

[Moedred]

How anyone can say that Marion in KOTCS is a compelling and story advancing character with depth and interest is beyond me.
Without Marion, as Indy says, "shooting me won't get you anywhere." For whom is he saving the world anyway? Better make her barefoot and pregnant to raise the stakes higher. And what guarantee does the audience have you'll let him keep any meager reward at the end of 5?
CGI of Eden and Sword powers
That's why you never stash a magical Macguffin in your pants...
http://pics.livejournal.com/moedred/pic/000084ba

[Robyn]

Without Marion, as Indy says, "shooting me won't get you anywhere." For whom is he saving the world anyway? Better make her barefoot and pregnant to raise the stakes higher. And what guarantee does the audience have you'll let him keep any meager reward at the end of 5?



Ah.. Finally someone's talking sense!;)

Allow me to quote the KOTCS novel

*He heard a shout from around the corner behind him. It was Marion.
Indy pushed backward against the pull, one hard step at a time. It was as if the air around him had become warm molasses, flowing toward the abysmal hole. He fought against it with all his will, driven not so much by pure survival as by something more important. For the First time in his life he had a reason to live(Marion!)*

[roundshort]

Can kill Marion and Mutt off, cancer car accident, don't really care, don't want to see them again!

[Robyn]

Can kill Marion and Mutt off, cancer car accident, don't really care, don't want to see them again!


Well that's a nice attitude..

http://tobefred.zoy.org/media/vignette/927

[Moedred]

Once again, here's my take on Eden...
http://raven.theraider.net/showpost.php?p=394376

[Hanselation]

Ladys and Gentleman,

you expect another Indiana Jones Movie with Harrison Ford as Indiana Jones?
Come on, - be honest:
Nothing new at ComicCon,
Shia just blew just hot air with his "they have cracked the story" because of publicity for Transformers 2,
Producer Frank Marshall knows nothing about it,
Lucasfilm earns much more money with the to me meanwhile boring Star Wars-Franchise

Indy 5? For me this ship has sailed! :(

http://i11.ebayimg.com/06/i/001/16/4b/8da2_12.JPG

[Robyn]

Ladys and Gentleman,

you expect another Indiana Jones Movie with Harrison Ford as Indiana Jones?
Come on, - be honest:
Nothing new at ComicCon,
Shia just blew just hot air with his "they have cracked the story" because of publicity for Transformers 2,
Producer Frank Marshall knows nothing about it,
Lucasfilm earns much more money with the to me meanwhile boring Star Wars-Franchise

Indy 5? For me this ship has sailed! :(



That's what everyone said about Indy 4 too, but we finally got it.. Of course they can't wait as long as they did for Indy 4, but I do think we'll get atleast one more

[James]

you expect another Indiana Jones Movie with Harrison Ford as Indiana Jones?
Come on, - be honest:
Nothing new at ComicCon

But why did anyone think they would announce something at ComicCon? It's not like they did so back in 2004/05/06. It wasn't until production was already underway that they made the presentation in 2007.

The fact that they're keeping the idea alive is why most fans expect another one. If they had no intentions of making Indy 5, they would just say, "Indy 4 was the final Indy movie." This is what everyone expected them to say all along anyway.

Remember, it was Lucas, Spielberg, and Ford who started the rumors. Even the most die-hard fans assumed Indy 4 would be the end.

[Pale Horse]

I can't believe I am bumping this thread. I must have drank the KOTCS koolaid when I started it.

[Montana Smith]

I can't believe I am bumping this thread. I must have drank the KOTCS koolaid when I started it.

You travel a path left untrod by many on The Raven, Pale Horse. Your hoof prints are compelling.

[Pale Horse]

maybe...but there are those that follow...sometimes.

maybe....