Obama wins Nobel Peace Prize

[monkey]

I am very proud of my President on his winning the Nobel Peace Prize.

I think he is very deserving.

In the very short time he has been in office, he has done so much to promote world peace, restore America's Honor, and erase the horrible stain that the bush administration left behind.

There is much more to be done, but I am proud of my President, and I congratulate him on this honor.

As I have said before, in many different ways....despite whatever faults he may have, President Obama is the antidote to the poison that george w. bush has sewn throughout the world.

[Rocket Surgeon]

I think he is very deserving. In the very short time he has been in office, he has done so much to promote world peace...
What has he done? No kidding. I understand he's donating his million dollars, I didn't hear to whom, and I applaud that! But what exactly has he DONE?

[monkey]

What has he done? No kidding. I understand he's donating his million dollars, I didn't hear to whom, and I applaud that! But what exactly has he DONE?

He has had a PROFOUND impact on the Islamic World!

His speech to Muslims had a profound impact on the Muslim World.

This has, and will, relate DIRECTLY to LESS American causalties.

This may not impact YOU, but it directly impacts ME!!!

I can not see how anyone can not see how President Obama has not had a profound and immediate impact on our world.

Perhaps you have blinders on.

Perhaps you choose to NOT see.

Don't know what else I can say.

[Rocket Surgeon]

He has had a PROFOUND impact on the Islamic World! How

His speech to Muslims had a profound impact on the Muslim World. Examples please

This has, and will, relate DIRECTLY to LESS American causalties. To my knowlege he disagrees with Gen McCrystal who has dramatically changed the American Strategy. Once again...HOW?

This may not impact YOU, but it directly impacts ME!!! I don't see how this comment has ANY bearing on my simple question. Please DON'T explain...please tell me what Obama has DONE. Please.

I can not see how anyone can not see how President Obama has not had a profound and immediate impact on our world. Great, you can't see it...now explain WHAT he's done. TALK?

Perhaps you have blinders on.PLEASE HELP ME. TAKE THE BLINDERS OFF, TELL ME WHAT OBAMA HAS DONE.

Perhaps you choose to NOT see.Perhaps? PERHAPS? Is english your first language? I BESEECH YOU, don't make fun of me! PLEASE! Help me! Tell me what the hell you're talking about! What has he DONE?

Don't know what else I can say.REALLY?!? YOU DON'T?

I'll tell you what, instead of writing this volume of crap, why not make it easy on yourself and simply answer the question. For Fcks Sake MAN!

What has he done?

[Robyn]

How

Examples please

To my knowlege he disagrees with Gen McCrystal who has dramatically changed the American Strategy. Once again...HOW?

I don't see how this comment has ANY bearing on my simple question. Please DON'T explain...please tell me what Obama has DONE. Please.

Great, you can't see it...now explain WHAT he's done. TALK?

PLEASE HELP ME. TAKE THE BLINDERS OFF, TELL ME WHAT OBAMA HAS DONE.

Perhaps? PERHAPS? Is english your first language? I BESEECH YOU, don't make fun of me! PLEASE! Help me! Tell me what the hell you're talking about! What has he DONE?

REALLY?!? YOU DON'T?

I'll tell you what, instead of writing this volume of crap, why not make it easy on yourself and simply answer the question. For Fcks Sake MAN!

What has he done?

Yes, I'd like hear the answer to this as well.

[Attila the Professor]

Yes, I'd like hear the answer to this as well.

Indeed, I voted for the guy, but this award is a bit of a joke, <I>at this point in time</I>...give it a few years, sure, but right now? With him being nominated less than two weeks after having taken office? If the reason cited was something about easing racial tensions in his home country and allowing for a national conversation about race - well, that wouldn't be quite true either, but it is closer to the realm of what has happened.

He won it, by the way, for "his extraordinary efforts to strengthen international diplomacy and cooperation between peoples." The Nobel committee seems to have directly cited his work to outreach to the Muslim world and to curb nuclear proliferation. He also noted that he has created "a new climate in international politics."

This article (http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1929395,00.html) in Time cites reasons that for Obama's own sake, this award is not the best thing, and how it might not encourage sound policies. (For what it's worth, the President certainly has handled this thing graciously, and with just the right touch of surprise.)

[Forbidden Eye]

This award is so dumb and stupid, the Oscar is probably more relevant.

This man has done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Keep in mind, people nominated him back in January, so what accomplishments has he done then besides be the first black president? People have got to destroy this Messiah image. I thought this award couldn't get any lower when Gore won it, I was wrong.

He should've done what Ving Rhames did:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Tk3EgDPZD0w&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Tk3EgDPZD0w&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[Gear]

Ha, ha-what?


If Obama was a white man, would you, monkey, still be so proud of him? Would he have still won this Peace Prize? Would he be our president?

If McCain had been a black man, would he be our president? Would you be proud of him, monkey? (after all, he did endure torture for his country as a POW in the Vietnam War) Would he have won this Peace Prize?

By the way, how's Obama coming along on providing proof that he was born in the U.S.?

[monkey]

I'll tell you what, instead of writing this volume of crap, why not make it easy on yourself and simply answer the question. For Fcks Sake MAN!


Can you be just a bit more hostile?

And no, English is not my first language.

[Robyn]

If Obama was a white man, would you, monkey, still be so proud of him? Would he have still won this Peace Prize? Would he be our president?

If McCain had been a black man, would he be our president? Would you be proud of him, monkey? (after all, he did endure torture for his country as a POW in the Vietnam War) Would he have won this Peace Prize?

By the way, how's Obama coming along on providing proof that he was born in the U.S.?

Interesting points..

[Attila the Professor]

By the way, how's Obama coming along on providing proof that he was born in the U.S.?

Come on, that's just a sideshow.

[Rocket Surgeon]

Can you be just a bit more hostile? And no, English is not my first language.
Asking if english is a second language is hardly hostile when you respond with the better part of a hundred words and you won't or CAN'T answer the simple question: What has he done?

The way I see it, I asked you very nicely to explain what it is you were posting about. I even gave an example of how I like the way he's donating his award money. You write he's VERY deserving, and go on to lash out at me with some crack about blinders.

And Yes I can be a WHOLE lot more hostle...hell, I was being nice.

(and yes I understand your sarcasm)

Here's something on the light side, but apropo:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/YT5Kl38fSVY&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/YT5Kl38fSVY&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[DocWhiskey]

What has he done? No kidding. I understand he's donating his million dollars, I didn't hear to whom, and I applaud that! But what exactly has he DONE?

He's not Bush.

Which is now enough for a President to receive the Nobel Peace Prize.

[Finn]

He's not Bush.

Which is now enough for a President to receive the Nobel Peace Prize. QFT.

The sad thing is that this doesn't tell as much of President Obama, but of the state the world is in.

And oh, while I'm quite neutral towards this nod (don't love it, don't hate it either) may I remind the first rule of every critic... when you think a wrong guy got it, don't say just that... also say who should have got it instead.

I mean, he may have been a bad call, but was there any better in the contention this year?

[Jonesy9906753]

By the way, how's Obama coming along on providing proof that he was born in the U.S.?

I believe politics in general are B.S,but damn dude
http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/dailypix/2008/Nov/09/hawaii811090361V3_b.jpg
http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2008/10/24/Obama%20birth%20certificate.jpg
get those eyes checked compadre

[monkey]

The way I see it, I asked you very nicely to explain what it is you were posting about. I even gave an example of how I like the way he's donating his award money. You write he's VERY deserving, and go on to lash out at me with some crack about blinders.

And Yes I can be a WHOLE lot more hostle...hell, I was being nice.

Thanks for being nice Rocket.

Didn't mean for my post to sound like lashing out at you. Sorry if it came off like that. My 'blinders' remark wasn't meant to be a 'crack'. What I meant was that there are some people who will see no good in anything President Obama does, no matter what.

You don't seem to be that kind of person.

Anyway,

What has President Obama done?

I've said before that one of the greatest things he has done is to NOT be george w. bush. That may sound disingenuous and sacrcastic, but there is quite a bit of truth to it.

But to list his most important accomplishments thus far:

He is in the process of ENDING the Iraq War. In fact for all intents and purposes it is ended. What remains is the pullout, which will take some time. American casualties have gone down dramatically. This I would list as his greatest achievement thus far.

Yes, yes, yes....I KNOW.....there's a war in Afghanistan. As I've said before, ....one thing at a time. I believe that unlike his predecessor in the White House, President Obama will ensure that a sound strategy is employed in Afghanistan. the bush strategy of 'War without End' has failed utterly. I am hopeful of much improvement in the situation in Afghanistan in the future.

President Obama is restoring America's honor in the world. Polls indicate a dramatic turnaround of the world's view of, and respect for America and Americans since President Obama took office. Under the bush nightmare the world's opinion of America sunk to the lowest levels possible.

President Obama has reached out to the Arab and Muslim world. Dialogue, Diplomacy, Respect........things noticeably absent during the bush administration, have been restored.

He has renounced Torture!

As an American I am ashamed that torture ever had to be 'renounced', but thanks to bush, cheney and the other War Criminals, it became necessary to renounce it. President Obama has done so. That's a huge step forward.

george w. bush created Terrorists with his stupid and hateful policies. President Obama's thoughtful and sound policies in this regard will help make it less likely that young Arabs and Muslims will choose Terrorism. That is the REAL way to fight Terrorism. Stop it before it starts.

I think those are some very great achievements by my President in his short term in office thus far.

Now, on to the racial thing. Some others here (not you Rocket) seemed to think that President Obama's race had something to do with MY opinion of him and his achievements.

Actually no. Not only no, but not even remotely.

To those who asked me those questions, I would ask you if President Obama's racial makeup affects YOUR opinion of him?

And to those who sink to the level of asking about the President of the United States proving his citizenship..........well, that doesn't even deserve an answer.

[Stoo]

He has had a PROFOUND impact on the Islamic World!

His speech to Muslims had a profound impact on the Muslim World.The 2nd line of your post is a repetition of the 1st.:rolleyes: How do you know that he has made a "profound impact on the Muslim World"? Because you say so? As Rocket asked, please provide some examples.

I was in Cairo when Obama made his speech and while there was definitely a buzz in the air, I couldn't tell you whether the people were pleased with it or not. The following photo was taken during lunch at a restaurant in a suburb (Heliolopolis) of Cairo because several parts of the downtown area were closed-off for his appearance. (Although, we did see Air Force One flying over flanked by Egyptian heliocopters!:up: Eyewitness to history in the making.)

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb262/Stoo65/2009%20Cairo/2009June04_CairoObama.jpg

Next day, I literally walked in Obama's footsteps when visiting the pyramids at Giza less than 24 hours after he'd been there. Dr. Zahi Hawass personally took him inside so "I stepped where he stepped".

Commander-in-Chief Obama and Dr. Zahi Hawass at Giza:

http://pmanuelian.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/obama-giza2.jpg
http://bagnewsnotes.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341cc90353ef011570bf9e63970b-pi

If Obama was a white man, would you, monkey, still be so proud of him? Would he have still won this Peace Prize? Would he be our president?If..If..If..For the sake of argument, Obama is half-caste. He is as much white as he is black.

What *wasn't* reported was that Hawass even allowed Obama to carve "BARACK was HERE" on the ass of the Sphinx. Here's a photo I took but you can't see it because the other side was closed to tourists. It can be seen with binoculars from another vantage point. There was also local talk that he kissed the ass, too.:p

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb262/Stoo65/2009%20Cairo/2009June05_CairoSphinxRear2.jpg

[monkey]

The 2nd line of your post is a repetition of the 1st.:rolleyes: How do you know that he has made a "profound impact on the Muslim World"? Because you say so? As Rocket asked, please provide some examples.

I was in Cairo when Obama made his speech and while there was definitely a buzz in the air, I couldn't tell you whether the people were pleased with it or not. The following photo was taken during lunch at a restaurant in a suburb (Heliolopolis) of Cairo because several parts of the downtown area were closed-off for his appearance. (Although, we did see Air Force One flying over flanked by Egyptian heliocopters!:up: Eyewitness to history in the making.)

Nnext day, I literally walked in Obama's footsteps when visiting the pyramids at Giza less than 24 hours after he'd been there. Dr. Zahi Hawass personally took him inside so "I stepped where he stepped".

Commander-in-Chief Obama and Dr. Zahi Hawass at Giza:

If..If..If..For the sake of argument, Obama is half-caste. He is as much white as he is black.

What *wasn't* reported was that Hawass even allowed Obama to carve "BARACK was HERE" on the ass of the Sphinx. Here's a photo I took but you can't see it because the other side was closed to tourists. It can be seen with binoculars from another vantage point. There was also local talk that he kissed the ass, too.:p

First of all stool, thanks for rolling your eyes, and pointing out my repetition of my first sentence with my second. I have taken notes, and will work harder in the future to avoid this discrepancy.

Secondly, WOW!! You are quite the world traveler.....Stool is certainly an International Man of Mystery. Thank you for going to such great pains to point this out to us.

Wow!! You've been to a "Foreign" country?? Sure hope I can do that some day. ;)

Anyway Stool, I don't play the 'examples' or 'proof' game. I GAVE my examples and my proof. You would have to be a complete idiot to not recognize the profound impact President Obama has had upon the Arab/Muslim World, and upon the rest of the World.

Keep jacking your jaw, and keep sending photos from the couple of countries you've been to.

PS I'm Rolling my Eyes Right Now!

[Peru1936]

Here's something on the light side, but apropo:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/YT5Kl38fSVY&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/YT5Kl38fSVY&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Hey, does anyone remember when SNL was funny? I miss the old days. Anyhow, that skit, other than being dry and lackluster, is pretty much on the mark.

[Robyn]

The 2nd line of your post is a repetition of the 1st.:rolleyes: How do you know that he has made a "profound impact on the Muslim World"? Because you say so? As Rocket asked, please provide some examples.

I was in Cairo when Obama made his speech and while there was definitely a buzz in the air, I couldn't tell you whether the people were pleased with it or not. The following photo was taken during lunch at a restaurant in a suburb (Heliolopolis) of Cairo because several parts of the downtown area were closed-off for his appearance. (Although, we did see Air Force One flying over flanked by Egyptian heliocopters!:up: Eyewitness to history in the making.)


Next day, I literally walked in Obama's footsteps when visiting the pyramids at Giza less than 24 hours after he'd been there. Dr. Zahi Hawass personally took him inside so "I stepped where he stepped".

Commander-in-Chief Obama and Dr. Zahi Hawass at Giza:

If..If..If..For the sake of argument, Obama is half-caste. He is as much white as he is black.

What *wasn't* reported was that Hawass even allowed Obama to carve "BARACK was HERE" on the ass of the Sphinx. Here's a photo I took but you can't see it because the other side was closed to tourists. It can be seen with binoculars from another vantage point. There was also local talk that he kissed the ass, too.:p



Yes, Obama is as much white as he is black, but some people never want to notice that.

Thanks for sharing the pics Stoo! Great photos, it must have been interesting getting to be there in Cairo during Obama's speech.

First of all stool, thanks for rolling your eyes, and pointing out my repetition of my first sentence with my second. I have taken notes, and will work harder in the future to avoid this discrepancy.

Secondly, WOW!! You are quite the world traveler.....Stool is certainly an International Man of Mystery. Thank you for going to such great pains to point this out to us.

Wow!! You've been to a "Foreign" country?? Sure hope I can do that some day. ;)

Anyway Stool, I don't play the 'examples' or 'proof' game. I GAVE my examples and my proof. You would have to be a complete idiot to not recognize the profound impact President Obama has had upon the Arab/Muslim World, and upon the rest of the World.

Keep jacking your jaw, and keep sending photos from the couple of countries you've been to.

PS I'm Rolling my Eyes Right Now!


And the childish insults begin yet again....

[monkey]

In regards to Peru 1936 Video:

(slightly) funny video clip.

Actually it is incorrect, in that President Obama IS actually ENDING the War in Iraq.

YES, he is actually DOING that!!

Post as many video clips as you want, but President Obama is changing the world for the better.

I can't believe the negativity in this forum towards the movement to world peace and understanding.

Frankly makes me wonder about the people here.

[monkey]

And the childish insults begin yet again....

As usual, Robin, you have absolutely NOTHING to add to the discussion.

Your posts consist of quoting others, and then adding NOTHING.

This is because you have NOTHING to add.

Sorry about your handicap.

[Rocket Surgeon]

I can't believe the negativity in this forum towards the movement to world peace and understanding.Frankly makes me wonder about the people here.
Well, no more questions for me, it's apparent they have not given him the award for anything he's done.

He was included on the ballot February 1st, (two weeks after his inauguration?) and he flatly, (and graciously) accepted saying he did not think it was deserved.

Has the Nobel Prize jumped the shark? Well they certainly devalued it by giving it to Al Gore, and now they've awarded it because of asiprations...hope, (which is "neither a strategy or an achievement").

In this vein, a result of his presidency has been a willingness on the part of Russia to join America on levying sanctions on the Iranians nuclear program. It has yet to produce any result, but unless I'm mistaken this is a first step for Russia/America/Iran.

I leave you with this quote:

"President Obama's Nobel acceptance speech called the award: "a call to action", and we'd like to remind the President, so was his election."

[Finn]

Folks, I repeat: If you think a choice is bad, don't just moan. Offer a better alternative.

Because if you don't, it's difficult to take your criticism for lot more than just another load of hot air.

[Rocket Surgeon]

Folks, I repeat: If you think a choice is bad, don't just moan. Offer a better alternative.

Because if you don't, it's difficult to take your criticism for lot more than just another load of hot air.

I can only imagine you mean our own personal favorites...Norman Borlaug comes to mind.

205 names were submitted for the 2009 Nobel Peace Prize, 33 of which are organizations. The Nobel Committees in Physics, Chemistry, Physiology or Medicine, Literature and the Prize Committee for Economics each usually receives 250-300 names every year, but this is the highest number of nominations for the Nobel Peace Prize ever. The last record was in 2005 when the Committee received 199 nominations. The names of the nominees cannot be revealed until 50 years later.

[Finn]

I can only imagine you mean our own personal favorites...Norman Borlaug comes to mind. I meant people who have not yet been awarded but you'd think would well be worthy of the nod, I mean. Official nominations be damned. Borlaug already got his 39 years ago.

I'll also repeat my own personal opinion on this. I don't applaud the choice, but don't hate it either. There are a ton of cons, but there are also a ton of pros. Make what you want out of them.

[Rocket Surgeon]

I meant people who have not yet been awarded but you'd think would well be worthy of the nod, I mean. Official nominations be damned. Borlaug already got his 39 years ago.

I'll also repeat my own personal opinion on this. I don't applaud the choice, but don't hate it either. There are a ton of cons, but there are also a ton of pros. Make what you want out of them.

I've got to...

Pope John Paul II

Besides my personal favorites of REPEATING Pius XII acknowledgement of evolution as a possibility and further advancing the stance “as an effectively proven fact.” (ROA, 82)

After he was elected pope, one of this first things John Paul II did was end his predecessors’ accommodationist attitudes towards communism and communist nations. John Cornwell writes in Pontiff in Winter:

“He would ask no favors; he would insist on freedom of religion, the full catalogue of human rights; there would be no accommodation. ...In his first encyclical to the world, “Redemptor Hominis (The Redeemer of Man), published on March 4, 1979, John Paul made a thundering appeal for universal human rights. ...“These rights,” he wrote,” are rightly reckoned to include the right to religious freedom together with the right to freedom of conscience.””

Gorbachev once said ‘The collapse of the Iron Curtain would have been impossible without John Paul II’

To name just a few examples of his worthiness...

[Finn]

To name just a few examples of his worthiness...
Since you already cited some of the qualifications, it's kind of funny you missed the one that disqualifies your candidate: he's dead.

Only way the prize can be awarded posthumously nowadays is if the person receiving it has died after the selection but before the actual ceremony.

If the late Pope John Paul II would still be alive, he would most definitely be a worthy candidate. Lot better than President Obama.

[Peru1936]

In regards to Peru 1936 Video:.

I didn't post the video, I commented on it.


(slightly) funny video clip..

I was actually saying that it wasn't funny.


Actually it is incorrect, in that President Obama IS actually ENDING the War in Iraq.

It appears that that episode is a little dated, as some of the points are indeed no longer true.



I can't believe the negativity in this forum towards the movement to world peace and understanding.

Frankly makes me wonder about the people here.

I'm still new, but I don't think anyone here is saying anything against the progress of peace. We're just skeptical and inquisitive. Questions about the timing of the award (especially the nomination) are legitimate points of criticism. Honestly, what Hillary just did in Turkey and Armenia is far more deserving of the Peace Prize than anything Obama has done thus far.

[Rocket Surgeon]

Since you already cited some of the qualifications, it's kind of funny you missed the one that disqualifies your candidate: he's dead.

Only way the prize can be awarded posthumously nowadays is if the person receiving it has died after the selection but before the actual ceremony.

If the late Pope John Paul II would still be alive, he would most definitely be a worthy candidate. Lot better than President Obama.

Cheers, I hear ya...but with the way they're shattering established precedents, (awarding not based on deeds), maybe his legacy is as valid...
(Hell if you're going to give an award...that he's dead is not as important as what he's done)

Honestly, what Hillary just did in Turkey and Armenia is far more deserving of the Peace Prize than anything Obama has done thus far.
Sorry, again, I have to.

Is that where she, our chief foreign affairs adviser "gracefully employed her diplomacy skills" and lashed out at that person whose question was misinterpreted?

[Short Round]

This is an absolute joke. He has done NOTHING. Remember, Al Gore won this "award" too. That kind of tells you something.

[Robyn]

This is an absolute joke. He has done NOTHING. Remember, Al Gore won this "award" too. That kind of tells you something.

Well as some others have already said, the joke is on the award rather then Obama.. The Nobel Peace Prize really doesn't have much meaning anymore, seeing how you don't really have to do anything to get it now.

[Stoo]

First of all stool, thanks for rolling your eyes, and pointing out my repetition of my first sentence with my second. I have taken notes, and will work harder in the future to avoid this discrepancy.

Secondly, WOW!! You are quite the world traveler.....Stool is certainly an International Man of Mystery. Thank you for going to such great pains to point this out to us.

Wow!! You've been to a "Foreign" country?? Sure hope I can do that some day. ;)

Anyway Stool, I don't play the 'examples' or 'proof' game. I GAVE my examples and my proof. You would have to be a complete idiot to not recognize the profound impact President Obama has had upon the Arab/Muslim World, and upon the rest of the World.

Keep jacking your jaw, and keep sending photos from the couple of countries you've been to.Excuse me but what?!?:confused: Firstly, I've been to more than just a "couple" of countries, you monkey. Just because you've only seen a "couple" of photos doesn't mean that those are the only places. You brought up his speech in Cairo and I wanted to share my experience with being so close to an historical event. I did not realize that talking about globe-trotting travels was frowned upon here at The Raven. Now that it has been pointed out, I won't be doing at any further.

Secondly, for your information, I actually ADMIRE Mr. Obama. Just look at that photo of him in front of the Sphinx. The guy is a DUDE! It took me awhile to compose my reply and I did not see the examples you gave until after I posted. Then I left the house. If you don't live within the Arab/Muslim world how do you really know what it thinks?

Thirdly, "stool". Cute!:D Don't see why you've decided to take swipes like that...

Fourthly:

Hello, my name is monkey and I am on Indiana Jones message board.

On this message board I will be going by the name of monkey.

I do not come to this message board to talk about Indiana Jones.

I come to this message board to talk about MY president and MY country.

My panties are in a twist because of the stain George W. Bush has put on MY country and my fellow countrymen.

What George W. Bush has done over the past 8 years has made me become a paranoid crackpot.

You must be a complete IDIOT if you do not see this.

[ResidentAlien]

Excuse me but what?!?:confused: Firstly, I've been to more than just a "couple" of countries, you monkey. Just because you've only seen a "couple" of photos doesn't mean that those are the only places. You brought up his speech in Cairo and I wanted to share my experience with being so close to an historical event. I did not realize that talking about globe-trotting travels was frowned upon here at The Raven. Now that it has been pointed out, I won't be doing at any further.

Secondly, for your information, I actually ADMIRE Mr. Obama. Just look at that photo of him in front of the Sphinx. The guy is a DUDE! It took me awhile to compose my reply and I did not see the examples you gave until after I posted. Then I left the house. If you don't live within the Arab/Muslim world how do you really know what it thinks?

Thirdly, "stool". Cute!:D Don't see why you've decided to take swipes like that...

Fourthly:

Hello, my name is monkey and I am on Indiana Jones message board.

On this message board I will be going by the name of monkey.

I do not come to this message board to talk about Indiana Jones.

I come to this message board to talk about MY president and MY country.

My panties are in a twist because of the stain George W. Bush has put on MY country and my fellow countrymen.

What George W. Bush has done over the past 8 years has made me become a paranoid crackpot.

You must be a complete IDIOT if you do not see this.

Stoo, your posts are so frequently truly amusing! I appreciate your delectably sardonic retorts, and this one made my day! Cheers! :up:

[Lonsome_Drifter]

Stoo, your posts are so frequently truly amusing! I appreciate your delectably sardonic retorts, and this one made my day! Cheers! :up:

I must agree.

[Gear]

Now, on to the racial thing. Some others here (not you Rocket) seemed to think that President Obama's race had something to do with MY opinion of him and his achievements.

Actually no. Not only no, but not even remotely.

To those who asked me those questions, I would ask you if President Obama's racial makeup affects YOUR opinion of him?


No, not nearly as much as the fact that he's a politician.


And to those who sink to the level of asking about the President of the United States proving his citizenship..........well, that doesn't even deserve an answer.


The Hell it doesn't. I want to know if he's legal to be 'commander in chief'.


... I think something's happening here. What it is aint exactly clear.

[WillKill4Food]

The Hell it doesn't. I want to know if he's legal to be 'commander in chief'.
Even if he wasn't, and I believe that he is, I'm not sure that would bother me. I disagree with Obama on many issues, but I don't think that whether a person is native-born should be a determining factor in his/her eligibility for the office. That is one rule in the Constitution that, to me, really seems to have no basis.

[Robyn]

Excuse me but what?!?:confused: Firstly, I've been to more than just a "couple" of countries, you monkey. Just because you've only seen a "couple" of photos doesn't mean that those are the only places. You brought up his speech in Cairo and I wanted to share my experience with being so close to an historical event. I did not realize that talking about globe-trotting travels was frowned upon here at The Raven. Now that it has been pointed out, I won't be doing at any further.

Secondly, for your information, I actually ADMIRE Mr. Obama. Just look at that photo of him in front of the Sphinx. The guy is a DUDE! It took me awhile to compose my reply and I did not see the examples you gave until after I posted. Then I left the house. If you don't live within the Arab/Muslim world how do you really know what it thinks?

Thirdly, "stool". Cute!:D Don't see why you've decided to take swipes like that...

Fourthly:

Hello, my name is monkey and I am on Indiana Jones message board.

On this message board I will be going by the name of monkey.

I do not come to this message board to talk about Indiana Jones.

I come to this message board to talk about MY president and MY country.

My panties are in a twist because of the stain George W. Bush has put on MY country and my fellow countrymen.

What George W. Bush has done over the past 8 years has made me become a paranoid crackpot.

You must be a complete IDIOT if you do not see this.

Way to go Stoo!!!:up: :up: :up: :hat:

And I love your globe trotting photos!! At least you actually have proof that you've been to other countries!

[Peru1936]

Sorry, again, I have to.

Is that where she, our chief foreign affairs adviser "gracefully employed her diplomacy skills" and lashed out at that person whose question was misinterpreted?

I'm unsure of that, but I was referring to her handling of the situation. She did her job in splendid fashion when the accord was in certain danger of being completely scrapped. To shed more light, I was only using Hillary as an example of a top US official who did something more deserving of the award, not necessarily deserving in its own right.

Of course, Eduard Nalbandian and Ahmet Davutoglu would be the ones who should be honoured.

[Attila the Professor]

Well, at any rate, Turkey/Armenia wasn't an option for this year's award, though hopefully the parties involved will receive it next year - unless something bigger comes along.

[AlivePoet]

Obama is coming to Seoul next month...well, most folks here are pretty excited, to put it lightly.

[Peru1936]

Obama is coming to Seoul next month...well, most folks here are pretty excited, to put it lightly.

Yep, it'll be chaos trying to get anywhere near Jongro that day.

[monkey]

Excuse me but what?!?:confused: Firstly, I've been to more than just a "couple" of countries, you monkey. Just because you've only seen a "couple" of photos doesn't mean that those are the only places. You brought up his speech in Cairo and I wanted to share my experience with being so close to an historical event. I did not realize that talking about globe-trotting travels was frowned upon here at The Raven. Now that it has been pointed out, I won't be doing at any further.

Secondly, for your information, I actually ADMIRE Mr. Obama. Just look at that photo of him in front of the Sphinx. The guy is a DUDE! It took me awhile to compose my reply and I did not see the examples you gave until after I posted. Then I left the house. If you don't live within the Arab/Muslim world how do you really know what it thinks?

Thirdly, "stool". Cute!:D Don't see why you've decided to take swipes like that...

Fourthly:

Hello, my name is monkey and I am on Indiana Jones message board.

On this message board I will be going by the name of monkey.

I do not come to this message board to talk about Indiana Jones.

I come to this message board to talk about MY president and MY country.

My panties are in a twist because of the stain George W. Bush has put on MY country and my fellow countrymen.

What George W. Bush has done over the past 8 years has made me become a paranoid crackpot.

You must be a complete IDIOT if you do not see this.

Thanks Stoo,

(I fixed that stuck "L" key on my keyboard)

I got just exactly the reaction I wanted from you. I pushed your buttons and I spun you up.

Thanks for your predictable reaction.

The fact is that when you open your post with a jab at me, i.e criticizing me for repeating myself, and putting the "rolled eyes" symbol, well, you've got to expect me to retaliate in kind.

Don't throw stones at me, and then act all indignant when one comes back at you.

As for your 'posse' here...............

Anyway, I'm sure you actually have been to many countries. You are a thoughtful and intelligent poster here at The Raven.

(By the way, this is the "Off Topic" board. That means this is where Indiana Jones fans discuss things.......other than Indiana Jones. So I don't really understand your criticism of me discussing President Obama here. I thought that is what this was for.)

Perhaps I misinterpreted your posting of pictures, along with your post where you seemed to say that Obama's speech to Muslims was.........no big thing. And you seemed to be trying to speak as an "authority", based on your travels. I thought it was a bit over done.

I've been to quite a few countries myself including many in the Arab world, and I believe strongly that President Obama has had, and will continue to have a hugely positive impact.

Now, as to your "Fourthly" above:

Okay, I see that you are again criticizing me for repeating myself, .....and nice touch with the double spacing. Yes I do tend to use double spacing a lot, that is because it is far easier on the eyes of the reader. Too many people don't realize this, and post LOOOOONG treatises in single space.

They shouldn't.

They should double space.

You should double space.

Hmmmm......then you call me names. OK, I would expect that from you, since you are probably still somewhat 'spun up'.

Someone else here.....oh yes, it was a member of your posse.......criticized me for name calling. I wonder if they, or anyone else here, will object to you calling me names.

Probably not.

[Le Saboteur]

http://www.danavenell.com/ODDBALLSAYSsilkscreen.jpg

[AlivePoet]

Someone else here.....oh yes, it was a member of your posse.......criticized me for name calling. I wonder if they, or anyone else here, will object to you calling me names.

Probably not.

Posse? Stoo's Canadian, and a Quebecer--I doubt he even knows what a "posse" is. I know I don't, and I'd like to keep it that way, s'il vous plait/merci beaucoup.

[monkey]

http://www.danavenell.com/ODDBALLSAYSsilkscreen.jpg

Negative waves are just half of the signal. The other half is Positive. Basic Physics.

It's all in how people interpret it.

Sometimes too, it's all about the "Pack" mentality, which is a primitive impulse, to which many weaker minds are driven.

Some of the small minded 'posse' here are driven by it. The village idiots are whipped into a frenzy, and stop thinking with their own minds.

Such was the stuff of lynch mobs in previous centuries.

And indeed in our own century it is still evident, such as in the the Lynching of Sadaam Hussein, which was an injustice, and a War Crime.

Perhaps my virtual lynching here on The Raven is the signal that the cast of characters.....(and their CHARACTER!) has undergone a dramatic change since I first came here.

Not for the better....that's for sure!

[monkey]

Posse? Stoo's Canadian, and a Quebecer--I doubt he even knows what a "posse" is. I know I don't, and I'd like to keep it that way, s'il vous plait/merci beaucoup.

AP, what is the French word for "Posse"? There must be one. After all, French is one of the Latin, Romance Languages.

The word has its origins in Latin. The literal Latin translation is: "Power or Authority of the County". Webster describes 'Posse' as: a large group often with a common interest.

There is the "Posse Comitatus Act" in the United States, which limits the power of the Federal Government within the individual States. "States Rights"

The 'common interest' here amongst some outspoken members here on the Raven is an opposition to President Barak Obama, and perhaps an adherence to Neo-Conservatism. Oh yes, and an interest in lynching Monkey, and muzzling his opinions.

I'm sure that your Quebecer friend understands the meaning of "Posse".

[Pale Horse]

He has had a PROFOUND impact on the Islamic World!

His speech to Muslims had a profound impact on the Muslim World.
....


From a quick google search on 'Obama's Muslim Speech Reaction':




"Obama's speech is an attempt to mislead people and create more illusions to improve America's aggressive image in the Arab and Islamic world." _ A joint statement by eight Damascus, Syria-based radical Palestinian factions, including Hamas.

"Obama's attempt was positive but not effective. As long as the U.S is supporting Israel there will be no hope for better U.S.-Islamic relations." _ Niloofar Mirmohebi, an Iranian student in Tehran.

"This vision is so out of touch with reality. ... You can have your speechwriters find every good thing a Muslim has ever done. But more modern history is that the Muslim world is at war with the Western world." _ Aliza Herbst, 56, a spokeswoman for Yesha, the West Bank settlers' council.


"The Islamic world does not need moral or political sermons. It needs a fundamental change in American policy beginning from a halt to complete support for Israeli aggression on the region, especially on Lebanese and Palestinians, to an American withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan and a stop to its interference in the affairs of Islamic countries. We have not seen any change in US policy towards the Palestinian cause. -Hassan Fadlallah, speaking for Hezbollah in Lebanon


And that criticism is from the left based mainstream media. The one's who are on Obama's side. I won't even go into Politifact.com, tracking his promises against his successes.

[Jack Nelligan]

I’ll just say this about President Obama winning the Nobel Peace Prize, he does not deserve it!!!

The problem with the Liberal way of thinking is that you can give an award to a person who has not done anything to earn it. It is the same with the way the Liberals have been running our public school systems into the ground with their ”Social Promotion” of kids that have not done the work needed or earned the grades to qualify to be promoted to the next grade level. Again, earning something and the value of achievements are not taught to our children, and what kind a message does this send to our kids when their President is given an award for doing nothing. Liberals have taken away the incentives from our kids to work hard and EARN what they get. They have created a society who EXPECTS to be given things, whether it be grades, money, or healthcare. We can’t keep score when our young kids play sports so none of them will be upset when they loose, every girl who wants to be a cheerleader is put on the squad without even having to tryout, we don’t allow boys over a certain weight to carry run the ball in youth football, and we expect our kids to grow up with character and be productive. We have gone out of our way to make life as easy for our kids as possible and in doing so, we have not given them the tools that they need to become happy, productive and independent members of society. Our job as parents is not to raise happy contented children or teenagers, it is to produce happy contented and independent young adults who can stand on their own two feet and provide for their families. Life is hard, and if our kids are coddled from birth to graduation, life with kick them in the ba!!$. Be a parent, not a friend, you kids have friends, they need strong parents who set rules and boundaries. Believe it our not, down the road they will thank you for it. Please explain to you kids that the President was given an award that he did not earn, and if he had real character, he wouldn’t have accepted it.

[HovitosKing]

What has he done? No kidding. I understand he's donating his million dollars, I didn't hear to whom, and I applaud that! But what exactly has he DONE?

IMO, repeatedly pissing off the Right to such an extreme degree is an act worthy of any prize. He did a wonderful thing and I applaud him for it.

[Short Round]

And indeed in our own century it is still evident, such as in the the Lynching of Sadaam Hussein, which was an injustice, and a War Crime.!

-mod snip-. Injustice? Why don't you go ask the families of the innocent people saddam slaughtered about injustice.

[Jack Nelligan]

AP, what is the French word for "Posse"? There must be one. After all, French is one of the Latin, Romance Languages.

The word has its origins in Latin. The literal Latin translation is: "Power or Authority of the County". Webster describes 'Posse' as: a large group often with a common interest.

There is the "Posse Comitatus Act" in the United States, which limits the power of the Federal Government within the individual States. "States Rights"

The 'common interest' here amongst some outspoken members here on the Raven is an opposition to President Barak Obama, and perhaps an adherence to Neo-Conservatism. Oh yes, and an interest in lynching Monkey, and muzzling his opinions.

I'm sure that your Quebecer friend understands the meaning of "Posse".


What's next? Are you going to accuse us all of being racist?

That is in the liberal playbook under “what to do when you are loosing an argument”. There are people out here in the big land of ours who are against what President Obama stands for, what he is trying to do to our country and his far left policies solely because they have a different vision of what America should be. Be careful with you next posting MONKEY and lets not drag this down into the racist gutter. I am not going to tell you that you can’t speak freely and say whatever you wish, just letting you know that I will not sit by and allow you bring race into this discussion simply to try and scare those who have opposing views.

[Attila the Professor]

How about all of you be careful? We've got all of the usual suspects, those of you who seem entirely unable to do anything other than engage in vitriolic debate whenever politics comes up, in this thread now, which means we're watching it. And I think many of you ought to know by now that we have no qualms about sending you away for awhile.

[Jack Nelligan]

How about all of you be careful? We've got all of the usual suspects, those of you who seem entirely unable to do anything other than engage in vitriolic debate whenever politics comes up, in this thread now, which means we're watching it. And I think many of you ought to know by now that we have no qualms about sending you away for awhile.


Agreed! This discussion needs to stay on track and does not need to be turned into a cesspool of name calling and scare tactics. It should stay productive!

[Stoo]

I got just exactly the reaction I wanted from you. I pushed your buttons and I spun you up.

Thanks for your predictable reaction....and you're rallying for World Peace...Right...O.K.:rolleyes: If you think it took that *one* post to spin me, then you are mistaken. I've read some of your posts.
I've been to quite a few countries myself including many in the Arab world, and I believe strongly that President Obama has had, and will continue to have a hugely positive impact.You’ve been to Arab countries so you should well know that Islam = Muslims which is why the repetition was redundant. C’mon, that deserves a little rolling-eyes face!:p You felt I was bragging so you got creative and called me stool (piece o’ sh*t) to “push buttons” and get a reaction?!? That's not “replying in kind”.
Perhaps I misinterpreted your posting of pictures, along with your post where you seemed to say that Obama's speech to Muslims was.........no big thing. And you seemed to be trying to speak as an "authority", based on your travels. I thought it was a bit over done.Not once did I imply that it was "no big thing".:confused:

What I did was relate how exciting it was to be there and the things I witnessed (plus a joke about Obama and the Sphinx). I could go into more detail about the vibe from the Egyptians that week but won’t bother now because that would be “jacking my jaw” and coming across as an “authority” on the subject. You made a blanket statement about a “profound impact” which is pretty presumptuous considering how many MILLIONS of people you’re speaking for, especially when you’re not one of ‘em.

From what you write it appears that your idea of “world peace” is: ALL the countries of the world respecting YOURS. You are proud of your president. I’m glad for you. However, you seem to be obsessed with some kind of national identity crisis and terribly worried about everyone else’s opinion of it. Bringing harmony between Islam and the U.S. does not equate world peace. Some folks like your country and some don’t. There’s also a whole pile of people who have much larger concerns and don’t care either way.

(Hate to be a pessimist but I don’t believe there will ever be true, global peace in any lifetime. It’s a nice theory but hardly a tangible one.)

Anyway, you already started a thread about Obama’s speech to Muslims. Can we look forward to more every time you want to gush over him? I could think of some interesting Obama topics: Inviting those 2 policemen to the White House for a beer AND his appearance on The Colbert Report when he ordered that General(?) to shave off Colbert’s hair! CLASSICS. My fave is the video of Barack & Biden ordering hamburgers.

Yes I do tend to use double spacing a lot, that is because it is far easier on the eyes of the reader. Too many people don't realize this, and post LOOOOONG treatises in single space.

They shouldn't.

They should double space.

You should double space.Please, tell me that you're not being serious. Double spacing is for children’s books.
As for your 'posse' here...............

Someone else here.....oh yes, it was a member of your posse.......criticized me for name calling.There is no posse. People replied in agreement because they found it funny. That is all. More paranoia on your part...

@Alive Poet: Of course I know what the word “posse” means. (I used to play Cowboys & Indians as a kid and one of my favourite westerns is “The Ox-Bow Incident”.)

Just to set things straight, I am not French and consider myself a “Montrealer” rather than a “Quebecer”. Most of my relatives are American (N.York, N.Jersey, Virginia, Florida & Oklahoma) and I’ve friends & colleagues in several other states. Does that gimme some street cred? Been living in Switzerland for the past 2.5 years and I think I’m going native.:eek:

Anyway, this thread is about Obama the Dude! (The polar opposite of the dork running MY country right now.)
The ancient Egyptians predicted that Obama would come...to spread the Word of Peace...HIS image was set in stone thousands of years ago...

http://imgsrv.hot957houston.com/image/kkhh/UserFiles/Image/obama_hieroglyphic.jpg

[Jack Nelligan]

He has had a PROFOUND impact on the Islamic World!

His speech to Muslims had a profound impact on the Muslim World.

This has, and will, relate DIRECTLY to LESS American causalties.

This may not impact YOU, but it directly impacts ME!!!

I can not see how anyone can not see how President Obama has not had a profound and immediate impact on our world.

Perhaps you have blinders on.

Perhaps you choose to NOT see.

Don't know what else I can say.



If his speech was so successful, then how come the FBI and Homeland Security had stopped 3 potential "Radical Muslim" bombing on US soil since President Obama gave that speech.

Radical Muslims don’t want to be our friends, they don’t want us to convert, they want us dead! To them, we are infidels and should be wiped of the earth. No speech by a wet behind the ears politician will change that fact.

[Kevin]

What has he done? No kidding. I understand he's donating his million dollars, I didn't hear to whom, and I applaud that! But what exactly has he DONE?

He hasn't done anything besides give a few speeches, the lasting impact of which has yet to be seen. Interesting when you think that Teddy Roosevelt was awarded the same prize for actually ending a war. Do any of Obama's speeches, even if they have had some positive impact (and that is debatable), measure up to that?

[Moedred]

Offer a better alternative.
Nobel laureate Dali Lama (with whom Obama refuses to meet) is disqualified, as is Neda Soltani who died on the streets of Iran this year before she was known. So the obvious choice is Keanu Reeves for his work in The Day the Earth Stood Still. An enduring message of peace or else.

Who knows how far Iran's nuclear program will be next year, and what Obama will have to do to stop it? This may be his only eligible year, according to the Nobel committee's definition of spreading peace. If Sweden can tolerate Chernobyl fallout and still give it to Gorbachev, they'll give it to anybody... except, of course, the U.S. armed forces.

[AlivePoet]

@Alive Poet: Of course I know what the word “posse” means. (I used to play Cowboys & Indians as a kid and one of my favourite westerns is “The Ox-Bow Incident”.)

Just to set things straight, I am not French and consider myself a “Montrealer” rather than a “Quebecer”.

Ha ha. I know all of the above Stoo, I was just yanking your chain/feeding the stereotype that the Quebecois have a lacking English vocabulary. :) I'm not French either, being of primarily Dutch heritage.

And, to be frank, I'm somewhat distanced from the political scene in the States, so I'd rather not spout off my opinion concerning affairs which I do not know well or with certainty. Although it seems I'd be in familiar company were I to adopt such a political method of posting.

[HovitosKing]

If his speech was so successful, then how come the FBI and Homeland Security had stopped 3 potential "Radical Muslim" bombing on US soil since President Obama gave that speech.

Radical Muslims don’t want to be our friends, they don’t want us to convert, they want us dead! To them, we are infidels and should be wiped of the earth. No speech by a wet behind the ears politician will change that fact.

I agree that no politician's speech will have any significant impact on ideological hatred and intolerance. They have their ideological extremists, propaganda machines, and fear mongers; and we have ours. On the other hand, they have political/religious moderates and so do we. The rest of us will just have to accept the fact that we live in the midst of bloodthirsty morons.

[Short Round]

He hasn't done anything besides give a few speeches, the lasting impact of which has yet to be seen. Interesting when you think that Teddy Roosevelt was awarded the same prize for actually ending a war. Do any of Obama's speeches, even if they have had some positive impact (and that is debatable), measure up to that?

Exactly. Obama has done nothing but give a few speeches that haven't had any positive effects. Giving him the award was an obvious political move by Europe. Nothing more, nothing less.

[monkey]

-mod snip-. Injustice? Why don't you go ask the families of the innocent people saddam slaughtered about injustice.

bush, and his illegal war has killed more innocent Iraqis (women, children, and non-combatants) than Saddam Hussein ever did.

What is your criteria for lynching? Is it the total of all deaths of innocents caused?

Oh, well then bush would qualify far more than would Saddam Hussein.

Recommended reading (though I know you never will): "The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder" by Vincent Bugliosi.

[Attila the Professor]

Fellows, this may not be a complex conclusion of any sort, but do you think we could at least agree that neither George W. Bush nor Saddam Hussein was a perfect leader, and that we can be pleased about the term limits of the first and the removal from power of the second. Yes, there are certainly times in which either of them can seem like "the devil you know" and thus perhaps worth having around, but...I think reasonable minds can find some common ground on this.

How 'bout it, ideologues? Find some premises you can work with?

[Jack Nelligan]

bush, and his illegal war has killed more innocent Iraqis (women, children, and non-combatants) than Saddam Hussein ever did.

What is your criteria for lynching? Is it the total of all deaths of innocents caused?

Oh, well then bush would qualify far more than would Saddam Hussein.

Recommended reading (though I know you never will): "The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder" by Vincent Bugliosi.


First of all, the war with Iraq was not illegal. Saddam was under strict guidelines by the UN that he broke repeatedly over several years. He attacked UN forces over and over and broke every UN resolution that was put in place. This alone made removing him from power legal and the right thing to do and should have been done by the Clinton administration.

Second, in war, civilians die. This is just a fact. The old saying, “war is hell” is very true. If you say G.W. Bush should be held accountable for crimes due to the civilian death during a war, which might I add were very limited at the hands of the US, then by the same logic, you would have to hold FDR, Truman and Churchill to the same standard for the countless civilian death during WWII.

I think you need to do you research and find out just how many civilian deaths actually came at the hands of US troops or from US bombing. I bet you will find that the number is far less than you believe it is. As far as US troops dying during this war, we have lost less per year in this war than any other war the US has ever fought, except the first Gulf War that didn’t last long enough to even count as a real war. I just happy that people like you were not in the majority back when our country was trying to liberate Europe, both times, because you would have been protesting the war because people were dying. Here’s a new flash for you, people die in war, but that does not mean that there sacrifices has to be in vain. Freedom is always worth fighting for, and the millions who have died around the world fighting for our freedom should be applauded and seen as heroes, not war criminals!

[Jack Nelligan]

Fellows, this may not be a complex conclusion of any sort, but do you think we could at least agree that neither George W. Bush nor Saddam Hussein was a perfect leader, and that we can be pleased about the term limits of the first and the removal from power of the second. Yes, there are certainly times in which either of them can seem like "the devil you know" and thus perhaps worth having around, but...I think reasonable minds can find some common ground on this.

How 'bout it, ideologues? Find some premises you can work with?


When the person who started this thread makes outrageous comments, as MONKEY has done, they can’t go unchallenged. They should be challenged respectfully, but challenged just the same.

[Attila the Professor]

When the person who started this thread makes outrageous comments, as MONKEY has done, they can’t go unchallenged. They should be challenged respectfully, but challenged just the same.

Who do you think I'm talking to? The people discussing that particular point are monkey and Short Round. I'm not telling anybody to stop challenging each other - although I would like a lot fewer outrageous claims all around.

Oh, and this is something monkey can be an authority on - why don't you ask him whether the First Gulf War was a war or not.

[Moedred]

Bush hatred ran so deep for so long, for some like Jon Stewart it required reclassifying Truman, FDR and Lincoln as war criminals. It's high time for some backpedaling. Bombing Hiroshima saved hundreds of thousands of lives and possibly millions of Japanese. Here's a compact 17-minute history (http://www.pjtv.com/?cmd=video&video-id=1808) lesson if you're sketchy on the details.

I only wish the proponents of peace would acknowledge the causes of war and conflict. JFK attempted to remove Castro in the Bay of Pigs invasion, so Marxist pro-Castro leafleteer and sharpshooter Lee Harvey Oswald killed him. In February 1998 Bin Laden issued a fatwah declaring war on American civillians, and in September 2001 he leveled the World Trade Center in a second attempt. Ahmadinejad is refining uranium and hopes to wipe Israel off the map... whatever happens, countries like Sweden can be counted on to host some refugees and dispense awards and criticism.

[Jack Nelligan]

Bush hatred ran so deep for so long, for some like Jon Stewart it required reclassifying Truman, FDR and Lincoln as war criminals. It's high time for some backpedaling. Bombing Hiroshima saved hundreds of thousands of lives and possibly millions of Japanese. Here's a compact 17-minute history (http://www.pjtv.com/?cmd=video&video-id=1808) lesson if you're sketchy on the details.

I only wish the proponents of peace would acknowledge the causes of war and conflict. JFK attempted to remove Castro in the Bay of Pigs invasion, so Marxist pro-Castro leafleteer and sharpshooter Lee Harvey Oswald killed him. In February 1998 Bin Laden issued a fatwah declaring war on American civillians, and in September 2001 he leveled the World Trade Center in a second attempt. Ahmadinejad is refining uranium and hopes to wipe Israel off the map... whatever happens, countries like Sweden can be counted on to host some refugees and dispense awards and criticism.



After reading his posts, I'm beginning to see why MONKEY chose a Nazi as his AVATAR.

So, you think Oswald was that good a shot?????;)

[roundshort]

I heard that Obama was seen watching College football this weekend, and he just won the Heisman, but they will award it at the normal time!

[Rocket Surgeon]

I heard that Obama was seen watching College football this weekend, and he just won the Heisman, but they will award it at the normal time!
That's funny...I thought it was "The Sally Field Oscar" cause they really like him.

[Jack Nelligan]

They realy, realy like him;) Not for what he has done, but simply because he is not George W. Bush.

[Pale Horse]

I heard that Obama was seen watching College football this weekend, and he just won the Heisman, but they will award it at the normal time!


He's also been posthumously awarded the Victoria Cross, and Vegas is putting odds on the day he can accept it. :dead:

[Jack Nelligan]

He's also been posthumously awarded the Victoria Cross, and Vegas is putting odds on the day he can accept it. :dead:


I hear they have given him 2 legs of the Triple Crown, but the Belmont is going to make him run if he wat the third! ;) Getty up!

[RedeemedChild]

bush, and his illegal war has killed more innocent Iraqis (women, children, and non-combatants) than Saddam Hussein ever did.

What is your criteria for lynching? Is it the total of all deaths of innocents caused?

Oh, well then bush would qualify far more than would Saddam Hussein.

Recommended reading (though I know you never will): "The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder" by Vincent Bugliosi.

Amen my brother. Well spoken. I could not have said it better myself. Howbeit Dick Cheney is far worse than George Bush and I had believe that had it not been for Darth Dick Cheney that George Bush's policies would have been a lot different.

Nevertheless Barack Obama has been striving to meet the people's expectations and has indeed put a lot more effort than the last administration to administer peace to the world and I feel as others have said that "Obama is a kind Spock in the White House" in many ways and he is indeed "an ambassador of peace" more or less.

I do understand the point of view that the administers of the Nobel Peace Prize have expressed and I feel that Obama is worthy of the award, however I only pray that he won't become "weary in well doing "Galatians 6:9 due to all the attention, negative remarks, ungrateful hearts and "rock star status" that he has attained.

It is sad how many of our Presidents enter the While House with "rock star status" and leave in dishonor. It's tragic really.

May God Bless America.

[WilliamBoyd8]

I suppose that if Adolf Hitler had been captured alive and tried at Nuremburg,
he would have blamed everything on Heinrich Himmler.

:)

[monkey]

First of all, the war with Iraq was not illegal.

Second, in war, civilians die. ...then by the same logic, you would have to hold FDR, Truman and Churchill to the same standard for the countless civilian death during WWII.

I think you need to do you research

As far as US troops dying during this war, we have lost less per year in this war than any other war the US has ever fought, except the first Gulf War that didn’t last long enough to even count as a real war.

I just happy that people like you were not in the majority back when our country was trying to liberate Europe, both times, because you would have been protesting the war because people were dying.

Here’s a new flash for you, people die in war, but that does not mean that there sacrifices has to be in vain. Freedom is always worth fighting for, and the millions who have died around the world fighting for our freedom should be applauded and seen as heroes, not war criminals!

Where do I start here?

First of all, your statement that:

"As far as US troops dying during this war, we have lost less per year in this war than any other war the US has ever fought, except the first Gulf War that didn’t last long enough to even count as a real war."

Is a grossly vulgar insult to every American Family who has lost a loved one, and every American who has been maimed in these two bush wars.

I dare you to walk up to an amputee American Veteran, and say what you say here on this forum! I hope if you do, there are enough of his buddies around to kick the SH@t out of you!!

Secondly, as to your statement concerning roosevelt and churchill: I consider them to be........along with stalin, the 3 worst War Criminals in the history of the human race. Their policies of DELIBERATE bombing of women and children in both Germany and Japan are among the worst War Crimes in History.

By the way, check out "Operation Vegetarian", which was churchill's plan to bomb Germany with Anthrax, with the express purpose of Genocide.

Be careful who you decide who are your Heroes. And YOU do some research!!

Earlier I think another poster stated that: "Bombing Hiroshima saved hundreds of thousands of lives".

This kind of ignorance is what I am trying to speak out against.

[Jack Nelligan]

Amen my brother. Well spoken. I could not have said it better myself. Howbeit Dick Cheney is far worse than George Bush and I had believe that had it not been for Darth Dick Cheney that George Bush's policies would have been a lot different.

Nevertheless Barack Obama has been striving to meet the people's expectations and has indeed put a lot more effort than the last administration to administer peace to the world and I feel as others have said that "Obama is a kind Spock in the White House" in many ways and he is indeed "an ambassador of peace" more or less.

I do understand the point of view that the administers of the Nobel Peace Prize have expressed and I feel that Obama is worthy of the award, however I only pray that he won't become "weary in well doing "Galatians 6:9 due to all the attention, negative remarks, ungrateful hearts and "rock star status" that he has attained.

It is sad how many of our Presidents enter the While House with "rock star status" and leave in dishonor. It's tragic really.

May God Bless America.



The Bush administration was too busy protecting our country from crazy people who want to kill Americans to be worried about how the rest of the world “feels” about America. There was no war in our Country, and no attacks after 9/11! That is enough Peace for me.

You say the President Obama had been “striving to meet the people's expectations”, but shouldn’t we wait until he actually meets those expectations before we start giving him awards????

[Finn]

The Bush administration was too busy protecting our country from crazy people who want to kill Americans to be worried about how the rest of the world “feels” about America. There was no war in our Country, and no attacks after 9/11! That is enough Peace for me. Nearly 3,000 people perished in the initial act of aggression.

Nearly 250,000 people have perished due to the campaign it generated.


If that's the cost of Peace, I pray to Lord I'll never have to witness the costs of an actual War.

[Jack Nelligan]

Where do I start here?

First of all, your statement that:

"As far as US troops dying during this war, we have lost less per year in this war than any other war the US has ever fought, except the first Gulf War that didn’t last long enough to even count as a real war."

Is a grossly vulgar insult to every American Family who has lost a loved one, and every American who has been maimed in these two bush wars.

I dare you to walk up to an amputee American Veteran, and say what you say here on this forum! I hope if you do, there are enough of his buddies around to kick the SH@t out of you!!

Secondly, as to your statement concerning roosevelt and churchill: I consider them to be........along with stalin, the 3 worst War Criminals in the history of the human race. Their policies of DELIBERATE bombing of women and children in both Germany and Japan are among the worst War Crimes in History.

By the way, check out "Operation Vegetarian", which was churchill's plan to bomb Germany with Anthrax, with the express purpose of Genocide.

Be careful who you decide who are your Heroes. And YOU do some research!!

Earlier I think another poster stated that: "Bombing Hiroshima saved hundreds of thousands of lives".

This kind of ignorance is what I am trying to speak out against.


The fact that you actually get to speak out against anything can be attributed to what FDR, Truman and Churchill did, so I thing it is you who should rethink who your heroes are. You are FREE because of them. If they had not done the things they did to defeat the Axis Powers, you would be killed for speaking your mind. You claim to so well informed, but if you actually were, you would know just how close the Allies came to losing WWII! One wrong decision, or one leader who hesitated on making the “tough” decision, and we would all be speaking German. Look it up! Thank God those men had the Balls to do what they did!!!

As far as me saying that far less troops have died per year in the Iraq war than any other war, that is just a FACT, and it is apparently one that you just don’t want to admit is true, because it does not fit your liberal agenda. It being a FACT, I would not have issue talking about to any Veteran, wounded or not, and I would thank them for the noble and selfless service and call them a hero to their face, unlike you and your liberal friends who would try to make their service to our country a political issue and cheapen what they have done for you.

Also, me saying the first Gulf War was too short to even be called a real war, was simply due to the fact that we kicked their a$$ so fast because our troops are the best and mightiest fighting force that this planet has ever seen, and I thank God every day that I am on their side and they are protecting my freedoms!!!

Again, “WAR IS HELL”, and unlike the current administration and the last Democratic administration we had during a war, you have to do what it takes to win. Do you think that Hitler planned to drop cupcakes on the US? No, he had plans to use Atomic Bombs on the US and wipe out New York City, Washington DC and several other major East Coast cities. Thank God we got the defeated him before he could create the BOMB and a long range bomber to deliver it! Do your research and you will see just how close he was to having both!

Again, mister well informed, please explain to me how killing a couple of hundred thousand people with 2 Atomic Bomb didn’t prevent the lose of millions of lives if the US and its Allies would have had to invade Mainland Japan? By all estimates, and you can “Research” this, an invasion would have killed well over a million people, both civilian and military, so do the math!

Feel free to keep showing you own ignorance by “speaking out” and comparing people like FDR and Churchill to people like Stalin. Arguments like that do more to show just how out of touch with reality you really are.

It must be hard for you to grow up in a country that you hate so much?

[Finn]

It being a FACT, I would not have issue talking about to any Veteran, wounded or not, and I would thank them for the noble and selfless service and call them a hero to their face Then go ahead and do that to monkey.

He is one, and anybody around here who didn't join yesterday knows that. The man you are arguing with has served his country in and out of uniform since the days of the First Gulf War... he doesn't keep noise about the fact, but I'd figure that if someone of his experience finds something out there worth critisizing, there must be a reason or two.

[Rocket Surgeon]

Then go ahead and do that to monkey.

He is one, and anybody around here who didn't join yesterday knows that. The man you are arguing with has served his country in and out of uniform since the days of the First Gulf War... he doesn't keep noise about the fact, but I'd figure that if someone of his experience finds something out there worth critisizing, there must be a reason or two.

I am in no way indicting Monkey (sounds funny) but that he served, I take your word, as did James W. Fondren Jr. who is merely the most recent example of why I don't give a "free pass" to ANYONE because they served.

Then there's Sgt John Russell, and there are many more.

So don't get me wrong, that he served I believe you, I have no reason not to...but his noise and critisms should be those reason(s) or two you mention.

[Jack Nelligan]

Then go ahead and do that to monkey.

He is one, and anybody around here who didn't join yesterday knows that. The man you are arguing with has served his country in and out of uniform since the days of the First Gulf War... he doesn't keep noise about the fact, but I'd figure that if someone of his experience finds something out there worth critisizing, there must be a reason or two.


I would be happy to! First I would thank him for his service, and then I would ask him just what it was that turned someone that you say has served this county, against the very country he has served? His postings reek of distain for this country and what this country and its military and leaders have had to do to keep him FREE!

Just because he has some experience, does not mean that you should take what he says a fact. Do your own research. Remember, this is a Web Forum and people can be anything they want to be on here. Not everyone online is who they say they are or has done everything they say they have done!!!!!

[Finn]

I am in no way indicting Monkey (sounds funny) but that he served, I take your word, as did James W. Fondren Jr. who is merely the most recent example of why I don't give a "free pass" to ANYONE because they served. I never implied that he should. Someone else did. And that's why I brought it up.

So don't get me wrong, that he served I believe you, I have no reason not to...but his noise and critisms should be those reason(s) or two you mention. To be honest, I wouldn't mind knowing them little more extensively as well.

Just because he has some experience, does not mean that you should take what he says a fact. Do your own research. Before you get all worked up, please note that I never said I agree with guy on all he says. I simply brought up what he is (or what he's very convincingly conveyed to be for the past decade). Even at those times I disagree with him on something (and oh, are those times plentiful) I'm sensible enough to figure that there must be some incentive for him to act and talk the way he does, and then proceed to politely suggest some corrective measures on his behavior instead of outright telling him he's wrong and should shut up.

Remember, this is a Web Forum and people can be anything they want to be on here. Not everyone online is who they say they are or has done everything they say they have done!!!!! Somebody who didn't see this one coming up from a mile away, raise your hand now...

Thanks for informing me on the true nature of this place, by the way. After so many years spent running it, my eyes are finally opened. It ain't the Real World? The horror.

[Jack Nelligan]

I never implied that he should. Someone else did. And that's why I brought it up.

To be honest, I wouldn't mind knowing them little more extensively as well.

Before you get all worked up, please note that I never said I agree with guy on all he says. I simply brought up what he is (or what he's very convincingly conveyed to be for the past decade). Even at those times I disagree with him on something (and oh, are those times plentiful) I'm sensible enough to figure that there must be some incentive for him to act and talk the way he does, and then proceed to politely suggest some corrective measures on his behavior instead of outright telling him he's wrong and should shut up.

Somebody who didn't see this one coming up from a mile away, raise your hand now...

Thanks for informing me on the true nature of this place, by the way. After so many years spent running it, my eyes are finally opened. It ain't the Real World? The horror.



I would never tell anyone to shut up and not speak their mind. In fact, I would like MONKEY to keep posting and showing just how out of touch he really is.

My comment about people not being who they say they are online was not necessarily directed at you.

[Short Round]

Where do I start here?

Secondly, as to your statement concerning roosevelt and churchill: I consider them to be........along with stalin, the 3 worst War Criminals in the history of the human race. Their policies of DELIBERATE bombing of women and children in both Germany and Japan are among the worst War Crimes in History.

By the way, check out "Operation Vegetarian", which was churchill's plan to bomb Germany with Anthrax, with the express purpose of Genocide.

Be careful who you decide who are your Heroes. And YOU do some research!!

Earlier I think another poster stated that: "Bombing Hiroshima saved hundreds of thousands of lives".

This kind of ignorance is what I am trying to speak out against.

This is unbelievable. You're equating Churchill and Roosevelt with Stalin??? The men who helped stop Nazism? The main problem is you don't understand what it takes to win a war. Thank God for those men. They understood what was necessary and as a result, Hitler didn't run the world.

Bombing Hiroshima did save MANY lives. Do you not understand it stopped them?

I think you need to stop degrading heroes who did everything in their power to save lives and stop evil from overcoming the world. And that's not an exaggeration.

[Jack Nelligan]

This is unbelievable. You're equating Churchill and Roosevelt with Stalin??? The men who helped stop Nazism? The main problem is you don't understand what it takes to win a war. Thank God for those men. They understood what was necessary and as a result, Hitler didn't run the world.

Bombing Hiroshima did save MANY lives. Do you not understand it stopped them?

I think you need to stop degrading heroes who did everything in their power to save lives and stop evil from overcoming the world. And that's not an exaggeration.



Way to go Shorty!

Some people, like MONKEY, just don't get it. If it were up to them, we'd still be under English rule!

The rewriting of history by the liberals is scary! They are painting heroes and men who protected their freedom as criminals. The really scary thing, is that they are running our schools and Universities and are pumping the garbage into our children’s heads ever chance they get. What is even more scary is that they actually believe this nonsense!

Maybe Khrushchev was right when said they world take us over without even firing a shot!

[Stoo]

Some people, like MONKEY, just don't get it. If it were up to them, we'd still be under English rule!The Battle of Brandywine, Pennsylvania 1777:

http://en.gamers.com/_file/news/1091/20090221083332xk6U.jpg
http://www.brandywinesoldiers.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/americans-holding-their-ground-at-the-battle-of-the-brandywine-american-revolution-c-1777-web.jpg

[Jack Nelligan]

The Battle of Brandywine, Pennsylvania 1777:

http://en.gamers.com/_file/news/1091/20090221083332xk6U.jpg
http://www.brandywinesoldiers.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/americans-holding-their-ground-at-the-battle-of-the-brandywine-american-revolution-c-1777-web.jpg


Nice pics! I wonder how many of us would have had the stones to stand up to the army in the red coats? Think about it. What were the odds that we could actually defeat that army and win our freedom?!?!?!?!? I wouldn't have bet my farm on it!

[Stoo]

What were the odds that we could actually defeat that army and win our freedom?!?!?!?!? I wouldn't have bet my farm on it!Hey, Jack.:hat: Just in case you didn't know, Brandywine River was a victory for the Briitsh...:gun:

I would love to talk to old people from Concord, Lexington & Bunker Hill. Tales from the beginning...

[Jack Nelligan]

Hey, Jack.:hat: Just in case you didn't know, Brandywine River was a victory for the Briitsh...:gun:

I would love to talk to old people from Concord, Lexington & Bunker Hill. Tales from the beginning...


Yes. Most of the battles were won by the British, that is one of the reason it is so remarkable that the Revolutionaries were able to turn the tide towards the end, with a little help from France, and break the will of the British.

[Rocket Surgeon]

with a little help from France...


...or a LOT!
:hat:

[Jack Nelligan]

...or a LOT!
:hat:


Yep, but I think we have more than paid them back!

[Pale Horse]

Yep, but I think we have more than paid them back!


Indeed, we name our fried potatos after 'em. And our toast too.

[Jack Nelligan]

Indeed, we name our fried potatos after 'em. And our toast too.



We also gave them Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie, not to mention Roman Polanski. ;)

[Stoo]

...or a LOT!
:hat: Agreed. If Napoleon was not around, the Colonies would have been smothered by Britain.

Indeed, we name our fried potatos after 'em. And our toast too.Mmmmm...that's debatable but delicious all the same...:p
We also gave them Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie, not to mention Roman Polanski.;) Polanski was born in France...(and arrested in Switzerland). What are you referring to?:confused:

[Moedred]

roosevelt and churchill: I consider them to be........along with stalin, the 3 worst War Criminals in the history of the human race.
http://www.allworldwars.com/image/011/Poster238.jpg
They were the Bush, Blair and Howard of their time. I'm starting to realize why there isn't a Nobel liberty prize... and why they don't give peace prizes during times of war. They're waiting to see who wins.

[Peru1936]

I think all this war talk is more than a little silly.

Comparing WWII with the War in Iraq is absurd. The Iraq War is nothing more than a relatively small coalition* of countries fighting an unnecessary - and, yes, very likely illegal* - war.

WWII was a series of operations that were in great hope of saving Europe, avoiding the spread of the war across the Atlantic (ie, the Battle of the Atlantic, which my grandfather participated in and lost his leg for), and eventually the Pacific Theatre. By the time the US decided it was lucrative to join the war in 1942 (it took nearly a year after 12/7/41 before US forces would see combat) - three years after it started - it was already long clear that the world was in real potential trouble.

The War in Iraq turned out to be a coalition of powerful politicians leading a hardy group of fools against a coalition of powerful fundamentalists leading a hardy group of fools. Either way, both sides use propaganda to sell their war. If there's any comparison between the Iraq War and WWII, it's in the use of propaganda to gain support.

Regarding the bombing of Hiroshima saving lives, that's untrue. By that interesting argument, it would've been the bombing of Nagasaki that saved lives. If there's a nuclear war in the future, in which likely millions upon millions will perish, would that argument still be "valid"?


*And much of that coalition consists of countries that were obligated to join the effort
*See the UN Charter

[monkey]

The Atomic bombings of Japan were completely unnecessary. Japan was the process of surrendering when these atrocities occurred.

That is a FACT.

The Atomic bombings of Japan, just as the deliberate fire bombings of tokyo, with the express purpose of killing as many non-combatants as possible, were an atrocity!

The deliberate firebombing of Dresden, Hamburg, and other German cities, was a War Crime of immense proportions.

When the Allies decided that, in order to win the war, they needed to massacre millions of innocent people, well, their credibility, and their cause loses any justification it may have had.

winston churchill actually wanted to infect the German population with ANTHRAX!!

FACT: Operation Vegetarian. Look it up!

Somewhere along the way, the "Allies" lost their moral compass.

Despite the huge loss of life in World War I, and every war before it, the loss of life among civilian non-combatants was very limited.

In World War II, "The Good War", civilians (Japanese and Germans.....the "bad guys") were deliberately targeted. It was the STRATEGY of the Allies to do this! This was against all the rules of war, and against all the morals of decency that Western Civilization had produced up until that time. It was a descent into barbarity.

The reason why the 'Allies' degenerated into mass murdering is because they were influenced by alien cultures that did not adhere to the concepts and culture of Western Civilization.

Bolshevism. Anti-Christian, Atheistic, Totalitarian.

The Bolsheviks controlled churchill and roosevelt through their agents who were deeply embedded in their governments.

Look it up.

So was Europe really "Liberated" in 1945?

Certainly Germany was NOT! In fact, it is estimated that more than 5 Million Germans were murdered AFTER they surrendered! Either through deliberate starvation, or "Ethnic Cleansing" from Eastern Europe.

SHAME on the Americans, British, and French (forever).

Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania.....all were sentenced to 50 years of slavery under Soviet Russia.

Is that "Liberation"?

Didn't Britain go to war to save Poland?

So who was "Liberated"?

Hmmm........I can say only France, Belgium, Holland, Denmark, and Norway.

And really, were these countries any worse under German influence???

Answer: NO!

These countries thrived under German influence.

And so did the Eastern Europeans countries, until their "Liberation" by the Soviet Bolsheviks.

In FACT, Germany LIBERATED the Baltic countries FROM the Bolsheviks.

The FACT is that roosevelt, stalin, and churchill, are responsible for the deaths of far more innocent people than Adolf Hitler could ever be blamed for.

Recommended reading: "Hitler, churchill and the Unnecessary War" by Patrick J. Buchanon.

[Jack Nelligan]

Agreed. If Napoleon was not around, the Colonies would have been smothered by Britain.

Mmmmm...that's debatable but delicious all the same...:p
Polanski was born in France...(and arrested in Switzerland). What are you referring to?:confused:


OK...So we gave Polanski back.

[Rocket Surgeon]

The Atomic bombings of Japan were completely unnecessary. Japan was the process of surrendering when these atrocities occurred. That is a FACT.

Wow, that is news to me Monk, everything I've ever read or heard points to Japan's indecisive great god-king Hirohito who ignored the Potsdam Declaration, (because he would have to give up rule of his evil empire), shy of two weeks later the bomb was dropped because of the mounting HEAVY casualties and STILL he did not act, (hell, it's got to be tough when you've got cabinet members advising death-before-dishonor and others advising mass suiside). THREE days after the first there came the second. More time then the pony express needed to deliver a letter...

Instead of dropping number three, we doubled our wait time and gave them another six days...

I don't have much sympathy for a leader who would let so many of his people die for Kokutai, (because he wanted to remain emperor).

[Pale Horse]

...
The FACT is that roosevelt, stalin, and churchill, are responsible for the deaths of far more innocent people than Adolf Hitler could ever be blamed for.

Recommended reading: "Hitler, churchill and the Unnecessary War" by Patrick J. Buchanon.


And to think...you volunteered to serve in a military with such a nefarious history. It's not like you were drafted or anything, like most men before who served their countries in such grand scale. If that were the case, your cynicism for the Art of War, might be better understood by them members of this forum that don't share your perspective.

Shame on you.

That being said, for your service and sacrifice on the field of duty, we all graciously and humbly respect you.

[Jack Nelligan]

The Atomic bombings of Japan were completely unnecessary. Japan was the process of surrendering when these atrocities occurred.

That is a FACT.

The Atomic bombings of Japan, just as the deliberate fire bombings of tokyo, with the express purpose of killing as many non-combatants as possible, were an atrocity!

The deliberate firebombing of Dresden, Hamburg, and other German cities, was a War Crime of immense proportions.

When the Allies decided that, in order to win the war, they needed to massacre millions of innocent people, well, their credibility, and their cause loses any justification it may have had.

winston churchill actually wanted to infect the German population with ANTHRAX!!

FACT: Operation Vegetarian. Look it up!

Somewhere along the way, the "Allies" lost their moral compass.

Despite the huge loss of life in World War I, and every war before it, the loss of life among civilian non-combatants was very limited.

In World War II, "The Good War", civilians (Japanese and Germans.....the "bad guys") were deliberately targeted. It was the STRATEGY of the Allies to do this! This was against all the rules of war, and against all the morals of decency that Western Civilization had produced up until that time. It was a descent into barbarity.

The reason why the 'Allies' degenerated into mass murdering is because they were influenced by alien cultures that did not adhere to the concepts and culture of Western Civilization.

Bolshevism. Anti-Christian, Atheistic, Totalitarian.

The Bolsheviks controlled churchill and roosevelt through their agents who were deeply embedded in their governments.

Look it up.

So was Europe really "Liberated" in 1945?

Certainly Germany was NOT! In fact, it is estimated that more than 5 Million Germans were murdered AFTER they surrendered! Either through deliberate starvation, or "Ethnic Cleansing" from Eastern Europe.

SHAME on the Americans, British, and French (forever).

Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania.....all were sentenced to 50 years of slavery under Soviet Russia.

Is that "Liberation"?

Didn't Britain go to war to save Poland?

So who was "Liberated"?

Hmmm........I can say only France, Belgium, Holland, Denmark, and Norway.

And really, were these countries any worse under German influence???

Answer: NO!

These countries thrived under German influence.

And so did the Eastern Europeans countries, until their "Liberation" by the Soviet Bolsheviks.

In FACT, Germany LIBERATED the Baltic countries FROM the Bolsheviks.

The FACT is that roosevelt, stalin, and churchill, are responsible for the deaths of far more innocent people than Adolf Hitler could ever be blamed for.

Recommended reading: "Hitler, churchill and the Unnecessary War" by Patrick J. Buchanon.



My response to this will take 2 postings:

You have totally lost you mind if you think “France, Belgium, Holland, Denmark, and Norway” were better off under German control! Germany wasn’t even better off under the control of Hitler and the Nazi party. Tell the millions of Jews, disabled, mentally ill, and the so called “non-pure” that were killed by the hands of the Nazis that they were better off under the Germans. If you understood what Hitler’s master plan was, you would agree that our leaders had to make the hard choices and do whatever it took to defeat him and end the war. You say that England went to war to liberate Poland, and you are wrong. England went to war to protect itself from what they new was an eventual invasion by Germany if they didn’t show some strength and backbone. They went to war to show Hitler that they were not just going to sit back and let him take whatever country he wanted including theirs. When you deal with bullies, you have to show strength or they will walk all over you and Churchill understood this. Also, if you really believe that FDR and Churchill were Bolshevik pawns, you have had too much “cool-aid”, and as far as Germany liberating the Baltic countries, can that actually be called liberation? That’s going from bad to worse.

The following is a quote from you, and I can’t believe you actually had the gall to type these words!

“So who was "Liberated"?

Hmmm........I can say only France, Belgium, Holland, Denmark, and Norway.

And really, were these countries any worse under German influence???

Answer: NO!

These countries thrived under German influence.”

Do you actually believe that these countries “thrived under German influence”??? Is you view of history that distorted that you actually think any country was better off under the rule of Adolf Hitler. Again, tell that to the millions of Jews, disabled, mentally ill, and the so called “non-pure” that he had killed.

I do agree with you on one point. How about that! The US and Britain should have never allowed the Soviets to have any part of Europe and if Ike had listened to Patton and rolled our troops into the East and taken down Stalin, the post war world would have been a much better place. FDR didn’t have the will to continue the war in Europe and wanted to focus on the Pacific, and Truman didn’t have the political clout to start a war with the Soviets once he took over. But you laying the blame for what Stalin did after the war on FDR, Truman and Churchill is way out of line. The only way they could have stopped Stalin was to attack him right after Berlin fell when we still had the bulk of our fighting force in the region. With one enemy defeated, FDR made the right choice to put all of our efforts into defeating Japan. Once that choice was made, we didn’t have the resources left in Europe to take on Stalin. We are just luck that Stalin didn’t come after the rest of Europe while we were in the Pacific. It would have been a cake walk for him.


You wrote:

“The reason why the 'Allies' degenerated into mass murdering is because they were influenced by alien cultures that did not adhere to the concepts and culture of Western Civilization.

Bolshevism. Anti-Christian, Atheistic, Totalitarian”

When you are up against mad men, sometimes you have to show them that you will stop at nothing to bring them down, because if you show any sign of weakness, they will exploit that weakness and use it against you. FDR, Truman and Churchill understood that they were up against enemies who would stop at nothing to get what they wanted and had the resourced to pull it off if they were not defeated at all cost. Yes, ALL COST. They understood that if we didn’t take extraordinary measures, it would be our cities and families getting bombed and burned, and Churchill knew this better than any of them after witnessing his country being bombed repeatedly. If these men had fought a polite war, by 1945, Germany would have had the ability to launch an atomic bomb mounted on one of its V2 rockets and wipe out London(fact). Our leaders knew that they were in a race against time, and if they didn’t do all they could to save their own people, the worst would happen!

[Jack Nelligan]

Part 2:

This bring me to you comment:

The Atomic bombings of Japan were completely unnecessary. Japan was the process of surrendering when these atrocities occurred.

That is a FACT.


You don’t understand the Japanese culture of the time very well. Surrender was never acceptable to them and their leaders were not talking about a surrender. Your “fact” is wrong.
There was some political pressure from a small few asking for a surrender, but Japan was actually preparing to defend their homeland at all cost from what they knew was and inevitable invasion by the allies. Do the words Death with Honor mean anything to you? If that invasion had occurred, the number of dead would have been 10 times that of lives lost in the two atomic bombings. How any more U.S. troops would you have like to see die before we finally defeated Japan, 100,000, 200,000, etc?

That takes me back to Europe, and the same question there; how many more U.S. troops would you have been willing to loose if our leaders had not made the hard choices that they made to win the war. How many?


You also posted:

“Recommended reading: "Hitler, churchill and the Unnecessary War" by Patrick J. Buchanon.[/QUOTE]”


The problem with Pat Buchanan’s whole theory is that he believes that Hitler/Germany would have been content with just taking back the land that it lost in prior wars, and that the rest of the world could deal with Hitler diplomatically and keep him in check if they gave him what he wanted. Hitler would have only had more time to build his military and develop weapons that he could use later to take over the all of Europe. Think about this, if we had not gone to war with Germany, Hitler would have been the only country on earth with the Atomic Bomb. We would never have gotten the technology in time because we would never have gotten the scientist who could build it, they came from Germany. So lets just say, England didn’t go to war with Germany and dealt with Hitler diplomatically for the next 5 years. The U.S. would still be trying to dig out of the depression, England would be going about it days and if nothing were wrong and Japan would be building up its Navy and Army to a point of massive strength. Hitler decides its time to move and roll his Panzer Divisions into France. England issues a stern warning telling Hitler that he had better withdrawal his troops or else. Hitler just laughs and England is forced to use some sort of force against Germany. Once England uses force against Germany, Hitler, who now has the atomic bomb, launches an atomic V2, or by then it would probably be a V4 or 5, at Great Britain to show the world what he can do to them if they get in his way. England backs down and begs not to be invaded, but t no such luck. Since the US is still economically depressed or at least recessed, Japan takes the opportunity to launch and all out invasion on the West Coast of the U.S. and with their mighty Navy that they have been building for the last 5 years while the west was asleep, they are more than capable of pulling that off. Once Japan has defeated the U.S., Mexico and Canada, and Hitler has total control over Europe and North Africa, the 2 team up to take on the Russians. Since it has been proven that the only way to defeat Russia in a land war would be to attack from two fronts, east and west, they walk over the Russian handily and Hitler only has use one of his Bombs on Stalingrad for symbolism. Now all that is left is South America, and the Japanese don’t even have to fire a shot to take it.

Now, looking back on the way things actually played out and the way they could have, I think Buchanan’s theory that WWII was an “Unnecessary war” is completely without merit!

And I firmly believe our leaders did exactly what they need to do to insure that the scenario above didn’t play out, because it very well could have if the had none nothing.

[Jack Nelligan]

I think all this war talk is more than a little silly.

Comparing WWII with the War in Iraq is absurd. The Iraq War is nothing more than a relatively small coalition* of countries fighting an unnecessary - and, yes, very likely illegal* - war.

WWII was a series of operations that were in great hope of saving Europe, avoiding the spread of the war across the Atlantic (ie, the Battle of the Atlantic, which my grandfather participated in and lost his leg for), and eventually the Pacific Theatre. By the time the US decided it was lucrative to join the war in 1942 (it took nearly a year after 12/7/41 before US forces would see combat) - three years after it started - it was already long clear that the world was in real potential trouble.

The War in Iraq turned out to be a coalition of powerful politicians leading a hardy group of fools against a coalition of powerful fundamentalists leading a hardy group of fools. Either way, both sides use propaganda to sell their war. If there's any comparison between the Iraq War and WWII, it's in the use of propaganda to gain support.

Regarding the bombing of Hiroshima saving lives, that's untrue. By that interesting argument, it would've been the bombing of Nagasaki that saved lives. If there's a nuclear war in the future, in which likely millions upon millions will perish, would that argument still be "valid"?


*And much of that coalition consists of countries that were obligated to join the effort
*See the UN Charter

I agree with you that the two war can not be compared, but I dispute your claim that the Iraq war is an illegal war. Saddam violated every UN resolution that was put in place after the first Gulf War and used military force against the UN peacekeeping forces and the U.S. forces who were part of the peacekeepers. Saddam should have been removed from power during the Clinton administration, but that didn’t happen for several reason, and non of which were legal ones. Saddam was given every opportunity to step down and avoid RE-STARTING the conflict, but chose not to. The removal of Saddam was fully legal under the UN guidelines and it was actually just the final resolution to the first Gulf War and it is what should have been done back when Bush, Sr. was in charge. It’s too bad that W. had to clean up his dad’s mess.

[Jack Nelligan]

Wow, that is news to me Monk, everything I've ever read or heard points to Japan's indecisive great god-king Hirohito who ignored the Potsdam Declaration, (because he would have to give up rule of his evil empire), shy of two weeks later the bomb was dropped because of the mounting HEAVY casualties and STILL he did not act, (hell, it's got to be tough when you've got cabinet members advising death-before-dishonor and others advising mass suiside). THREE days after the first there came the second. More time then the pony express needed to deliver a letter...

Instead of dropping number three, we doubled our wait time and gave them another six days...

I don't have much sympathy for a leader who would let so many of his people die for Kokutai, (because he wanted to remain emperor).



Some poeple like, MONKEY, want to re-write history to make their point. Good thing people like you are on here to call them on it. Nice post!:whip:

[Rocket Surgeon]

Some poeple like, MONKEY, want to re-write history to make their point. Good thing people like you are on here to call them on it. Nice post!:whip:

Thanks, I'm more interested in how Monkey assigns credibility...he seems no stranger to books, nor to impassioned opinion.

[Jack Nelligan]

Thanks, I'm more interested in how Monkey assigns credibility...he seems no stranger to books, nor to impassioned opinion.



I'd like to hear how he would have handle Hitler and Japan during that time period and what he would have done to stop Hitler from controlling Europe and maybe the world. He is quick to point the finger and place blame, but does not offer up any other viable solutions.

[Moedred]

For the record, I hope I haven't been to harsh on the Scandinavians. They can award whomever they like, after all, we Californians have our hopelessly politicized Grammys (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammy_Award_for_Best_Spoken_Word_Album). (At least they gave it to Raiders!) I've lived and worked in Sweden and think quite highly Swedes. Jag ar en Stockholmer!

[Jack Nelligan]

For the record, I hope I haven't been to harsh on the Scandinavians. They can award whomever they like, after all, we Californians have our hopelessly politicized Grammys (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammy_Award_for_Best_Spoken_Word_Album). (At least they gave it to Raiders!) I've lived and worked in Sweden and think quite highly Swedes. Jag ar en Stockholmer!


Always been a big fan of their bikini team! :up:

[Finn]

Jag ar en Stockholmer! You know, with the missing umlaut, är, you just said that you're going to drive over someone who lives in Stockholm...

[Moedred]

Heh, all the better since it's a reference to JFK's "Ich bin ein Berliner" faux pas.
Clearly I'm mostly grateful for Scandinavians' mastery of English.

[Peru1936]

I agree with you that the two war can not be compared, but I dispute your claim that the Iraq war is an illegal war. Saddam violated every UN resolution that was put in place after the first Gulf War and used military force against the UN peacekeeping forces and the U.S. forces who were part of the peacekeepers. Saddam should have been removed from power during the Clinton administration, but that didn’t happen for several reason, and non of which were legal ones. Saddam was given every opportunity to step down and avoid RE-STARTING the conflict, but chose not to. The removal of Saddam was fully legal under the UN guidelines and it was actually just the final resolution to the first Gulf War and it is what should have been done back when Bush, Sr. was in charge. It’s too bad that W. had to clean up his dad’s mess.

The legality of the war will be disputed for years to come (as it seems it will be years to come before anything gets done in the country) because from day one there were political and (forced) patriotic issues attached to it. According to the UN itself, it was an illegal war. What Saddam did cannot be justified, but the means by which the war was started cannot either. The sole purpose of the war, the only thing that brought support - what little of it there was - turned out to be untrue, just like the UN said.

So, Saddam is out of power (and dead). Now what? There's a massive mess that the US tax payers are going to have to pay for generations. All for what? An Iraq free of Saddam, but not a free Iraq.

We cannot forget that war is a very profitable venture. Some people made millions of dollars from this war.

[Short Round]

Did Monkey seriously say Roosevelt and Churchill were worse than Hitler??? I think he's just trying to mess with us now. At least I hope so...

[Finn]

Heh, all the better since it's a reference to JFK's "Ich bin ein Berliner" faux pas. But it actually is a completely correct sentence in its meaning. The fact that he would have stated to be a pastry product is in fact, a mere urban legend. Or, not wholly. The sentence can be understood both ways, in fact.

But yeah, he got it right after all anyway.

[monkey]

Nelligan,

Your long-winded (and single spaced) post(s) only serve to prove your ignorance.

Heck, you can't even spell!

Knew........NOT 'New' OK?

Their......NOT 'There' OK?

Buy a dictionary, or take a class.

Learn to spell, but more importantly, educate yourself on true history.

You spout off with all of the propaganda that has been fed to the West since World War Two.

You are nothing more than a conduit, ....a pipe.....what is fed in ...is spouted out at the other end. There seems to be no assessment of the data at all.

You are a neutral machine.

You have only seen one side of the story, and you seem unwilling to even try to see the other side.

Remember the old saying "there are two sides to every story"? I guess you don't.

As to your "Millions" of Jews.............this is a tired old Fantasy.

Recommended reading: "Debating the Holocaust" by Thomas Dalton, also "The True History of the Holocaust" by Richard Harwood.

Anyway, I don't want to go too far into the whole "Holocaust" thing, lest I be branded with the "AS" Brand, and then no one will listen to anything I have to say.........because they have been ordered not to by their Masters.

But back to the true history of World War 2.

Why is it important?

It is MOST important because it was the first war in which the purposeful targeting of the civilian population of the "enemy" was accepted as a war tactic.

The Allies were the only ones to practice this in World War 2. The Germans and Japanese did NOT do this.

Ask yourself this: When you consider the MILLIONS (Real millions, not imagined) of innocent people who were murdered by the Allies in World War 2, ................was it worth it?

What did they win???

Certainly it was a great victory for Bolshevism, but what else??

And at the beginning of the 21st century we have "Shock and Awe"!! The DELIBERATE killing of innocent Iraqis, and the destruction of the infrastructure upon which their lives depend.

The Fire bombings of Tokyo, and Dresden, and countless other cities, .....and the Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki ......paved the way for "Shock and Awe"

PS: Nelligan, while I mean everything I say in my posts, I do want to apologize for my earlier post in which I said that what you had posted was a 'gross' insult to American Veterans. I was a little over the top there. I know that you are not that kind of person. I enjoy debating with you, and apologize for anything insulting that I have said in that regard.

[Peru1936]

As to your "Millions" of Jews.............this is a tired old Fantasy.

Are you suggesting that the Holocaust never happened?

[monkey]

And to think...you volunteered to serve in a military with such a nefarious history. It's not like you were drafted or anything, like most men before who served their countries in such grand scale. If that were the case, your cynicism for the Art of War, might be better understood by them members of this forum that don't share your perspective.

Shame on you.

That being said, for your service and sacrifice on the field of duty, we all graciously and humbly respect you.

Not really sure what you are driving at here Pale Horse.

I respect you, and have always respected your opinions here on this forum.

Perhaps I was a Mercenary.

I won't disagree if you were to label me as such.

However, I will say emphatically that regardless of my opinions on matters out of my control, I was always and forever committed to my shipmates, my mission, and my Navy, and I always will be!!!

[monkey]

Are you suggesting that the Holocaust never happened?

We're opening a whole new chapter here.

Might be worthy of a whole 'nother thread.

I am not going to start it.

If you want to start it, I will participate.

[Peru1936]

We're opening a whole new chapter here.

Might be worthy of a whole 'nother thread.

I am not going to start it.

If you want to start it, I will participate.

No, this thread is interesting enough.

[Robyn]

As to your "Millions" of Jews.............this is a tired old Fantasy.

Recommended reading: "Debating the Holocaust" by Thomas Dalton, also "The True History of the Holocaust" by Richard Harwood.



This is shocking to say the least:eek: Have you looked into the death camps the Nazi's had set up for the Jews? Or the torture chambers and experiments for the children? Cause guess what, Obama did have a look at them.. Monkey you seem to have a real lack of sympathy for Jews in general and it's very upsetting... The Holocaust was and IS a very real thing, and for you to call it a tired old fantasy makes me very upset. You seem to be upset about all other people except for the Jews? Perhaps you should have a talk with some of the Holocaust survivors.

I've always been very torn about the Hiroshima bombing, I've seen programs showing all the innocent Japanese children with their faces melting off from the radiation, and it was an absolutely horrendous thing to see. BUT we HAD to win that war. I can't even imagine being in command and having to make a decision like that.

And btw my Father is a Navy veteran as well

[Jack Nelligan]

Nelligan,

Your long-winded (and single spaced) post(s) only serve to prove your ignorance.

Heck, you can't even spell!

Knew........NOT 'New' OK?

Their......NOT 'There' OK?

Buy a dictionary, or take a class.

Learn to spell, but more importantly, educate yourself on true history.

You spout off with all of the propaganda that has been fed to the West since World War Two.

You are nothing more than a conduit, ....a pipe.....what is fed in ...is spouted out at the other end. There seems to be no assessment of the data at all.

You are a neutral machine.

You have only seen one side of the story, and you seem unwilling to even try to see the other side.

Remember the old saying "there are two sides to every story"? I guess you don't.

As to your "Millions" of Jews.............this is a tired old Fantasy.

Recommended reading: "Debating the Holocaust" by Thomas Dalton, also "The True History of the Holocaust" by Richard Harwood.

Anyway, I don't want to go too far into the whole "Holocaust" thing, lest I be branded with the "AS" Brand, and then no one will listen to anything I have to say.........because they have been ordered not to by their Masters.

But back to the true history of World War 2.

Why is it important?

It is MOST important because it was the first war in which the purposeful targeting of the civilian population of the "enemy" was accepted as a war tactic.

The Allies were the only ones to practice this in World War 2. The Germans and Japanese did NOT do this.

Ask yourself this: When you consider the MILLIONS (Real millions, not imagined) of innocent people who were murdered by the Allies in World War 2, ................was it worth it?

What did they win???

Certainly it was a great victory for Bolshevism, but what else??

And at the beginning of the 21st century we have "Shock and Awe"!! The DELIBERATE killing of innocent Iraqis, and the destruction of the infrastructure upon which their lives depend.

The Fire bombings of Tokyo, and Dresden, and countless other cities, .....and the Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki ......paved the way for "Shock and Awe"

PS: Nelligan, while I mean everything I say in my posts, I do want to apologize for my earlier post in which I said that what you had posted was a 'gross' insult to American Veterans. I was a little over the top there. I know that you are not that kind of person. I enjoy debating with you, and apologize for anything insulting that I have said in that regard.



MONKEY:

First let me say that I won’t even respond to your childish personal attacks that only serve to show you own ignorance and make you look like a 8 year old, but I will move on the disturbing comments that you have made and it will all be single spaced!

You wrote:


“You spout off with all of the propaganda that has been fed to the West since World War Two.

You are nothing more than a conduit, ....a pipe.....what is fed in ...is spouted out at the other end. There seems to be no assessment of the data at all.

You are a neutral machine.

You have only seen one side of the story, and you seem unwilling to even try to see the other side.

Remember the old saying "there are two sides to every story"? I guess you don't.”


Let me say this, I have a Major in U.S. History and a Minor In European History, and I fully understand both sides of the story about WWII! My understanding of history is the reason that I am 100% convinced that your views are totally without merit. There is an old rule when it comes to debating, and that is to never underestimate the knowledge of your opponent. I have studied and understand the arguments that you make and I know who is pushing the propaganda that you are so willing spouting out as fact. I also understand that the people pushing this drivel have a political agenda of which I am 100% against.



You wrote this disturbing comment:

“As to your "Millions" of Jews.............this is a tired old Fantasy.

Recommended reading: "Debating the Holocaust" by Thomas Dalton, also "The True History of the Holocaust" by Richard Harwood.

Anyway, I don't want to go too far into the whole "Holocaust" thing, lest I be branded with the "AS" Brand, and then no one will listen to anything I have to say.........because they have been ordered not to by their Masters.”

I would love to hear from you, just how many Jew were killed under the Third Reich??????? Not only were Jew killed, there were countless disabled, mentally ill, gypsies, and anyone branded as “impure”. From you statement above, you seem to be saying that this didn’t happen. You use words like “fantasy, the whole “Holocaust” thing, and ordered to by their Master “ and you want use to stop short of thinking you are Anti Semitic. I don’t brand people with scarlet letters, but I think you true colors are rearing their ugly head and I’ll let your further posts show who you really are.

More of your idiocy:

“It is MOST important because it was the first war in which the purposeful targeting of the civilian population of the "enemy" was accepted as a war tactic.

The Allies were the only ones to practice this in World War 2. The Germans and Japanese did NOT do this.”


It is a 100% undisputed fact that Germany Bombed England and targeted major metropolitan cites like London, so right off the bat your theory is blown out of the water.
Hitler had a plan to bomb New York city and was working at breakneck speed to develop a long range bomber that could make this happen. He even considered using disposable bombers, where the pilots would eject, to be picked up by submarines, after setting their bomb filled plans on an unmanned crash course for New York City. He was also very close to having an atomic bomb, and don’t think for a minute that he would not have used it. Also, do your research into what the Germans did to the Russian people and how many of them were killed at the hands of the German forces.
The Japanese didn’t have the air capability to bomb the U.S., but throughout the Pacific, there are islands full of people who experienced the brutality of the Japanese occupation and saw first had how they killed and enslaved those who would not capitulate. The torture that the Allied Force’s POW’s had to endure at the hands of the Japanese was unmercifully brutal. Look it up!

Even more of you lopsided logic:

“Ask yourself this: When you consider the MILLIONS (Real millions, not imagined) of innocent people who were murdered by the Allies in World War 2, ................was it worth it?

What did they win???

Certainly it was a great victory for Bolshevism, but what else??”


I’ll take these one at a time. First, when you say “(Real millions, and not imagined)”, this only shows how misguided and truly misinformed you really are. Again, you seem to saying that thinks like the Holocaust didn’t happen and seem to be defending the atrocities of the Axis Powers and their leaders. You ask, “was it worth it?”, and I would say that considering the alternative and living under a crazy Fascist Dictator and not being free, then yes I say it was worth it.

When you ask, “What did they win?”, I’ve got one word for you, FREEDOM! The freedom for you to express whatever you want, as misguided as it may be, and the freedom for you to debate with someone like me. If you have ever talked to anyone who has grown up or lived in a country where they could not speak freely, worship freely, come and go as they wish, and pursue their dreams they will tell you that those things are worth fighting for, and even dying for if necessary. What did we win??? How about Live, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness!!!

The victory for Bolshevism, as you put it, was what is called a give and take deal the Allies had to make in order to arrive at their desired outcome of the war. We needed Russia involved with Germany on the Eastern Front in order to weaken Hitler’s ability in the west. Millions of Russian people, both military and civilians died in their fight with Germany, and Russia’s part in our victory in Europe can not be ignored. That being said, do you think we should have not allowed them a seat at the table after the war, after all, they got to Berlin before we did. Even though I disagree with Stalin’s politics and think he was a mass murderer, I don’t diminish the Russian role in our Victory. Would I have liked to see us follow Gen. Patton’s advice and continued our fight against the Russians, yes, but that didn’t happen, and I fully understand why.


Your last misguided comment:

And at the beginning of the 21st century we have "Shock and Awe"!! The DELIBERATE killing of innocent Iraqis, and the destruction of the infrastructure upon which their lives depend.

The Fire bombings of Tokyo, and Dresden, and countless other cities, .....and the Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki ......paved the way for "Shock and Awe"

There is no way you can compare the strategic targeted bombing of Bagdad with the carpet bombing of Germany or the Atomic Bombs dropped on Japan. Again, you are showing how misinformed you really are. The bombing of Bagdad produced as little collateral damage as possible with precise targeted bombing that were mainly military, government or infrastructure facilities. Yes some civilians dies, and yes some civilian buildings were hit, but that is what happens when your crazy leader tries to shield his military with his civilian population.
Any comparison to the Iraq war and WWII is just ignorant!

[Robyn]

You use words like “fantasy, the whole “Holocaust” thing, and ordered to by their Master “ and you want use to stop short of thinking you are Anti Semitic.


I'm starting to be very worried of this myself about monkey!:eek:

[Jack Nelligan]

No, this thread is interesting enough.



Let keep this thread going and see just how MONKEY really feels. I think some interesting things are being revealed! :whip:

[Jack Nelligan]

I'm starting to be very worried of this myself about monkey!:eek:



True colors!!!!

[Pale Horse]

I respect you, and have always respected your opinions here on this forum.

Ditto

Perhaps I was a Mercenary.

I won't disagree if you were to label me as such.

To this I respectfully ask: Then why are you so disenchanted? Was the 'prize' less then the 'cost of playing'?

I'll throw this out there for you to bite on, or not. Are you familiar with the works of these men? If so, then we are more alike then you know:

Cooper
Estulin
Jones
Lazar
Perloff
Valerian

I'll interested in your reply.

[Stoo]

Recommended reading: "Debating the Holocaust" by Thomas Dalton, also "The True History of the Holocaust" by Richard Harwood.Are these books written single-spaced or double-spaced?
It is MOST important because it was the first war in which the purposeful targeting of the civilian population of the "enemy" was accepted as a war tactic.Incorrect. Now, I hate to admit this but in the 2nd Anglo/Boer War (1899-1902) when Britain realized they were losing, as a deterrent, they started rounding up Boer civilians, put them in concentration camps with no facilities and let them die (we're talking women & children here). Yes, Britian invented concentration camps (I'm sorry to say:o). While I don't remember the numbers offhand, MORE Boer civilians than Boer combatants died during that war. I could probably find other examples that pre-date WW2 but am not going to waste my time anymore than I already am.
I would love to hear from you, just how many Jew were killed under the Third Reich??????? Not only were Jew killed, there were countless disabled, mentally ill, gypsies, and anyone branded as “impure”. From you statement above, you seem to be saying that this didn’t happen. You use words like “fantasy, the whole “Holocaust” thing, and ordered to by their Master “ and you want us to stop short of thinking you are Anti Semitic. I don’t brand people with scarlet letters, but I think you true colors are rearing their ugly head and I’ll let your further posts show who you really are.The "ugly head" reared sometime ago. He should change his avatar from Gobler to Vogel...
As to your "Millions" of Jews.............this is a tired old Fantasy.Allow me to reply in a way you will understand:

Someone once posted a joke about the navy/dropping bars of soap.

You were insulted by this.

You started an thread to tell everyone this was an insult to YOU and the ENTIRE US NAVY. http://raven.theraider.net/showthread.php?t=10454

The FUNNIEST thing is that you were mad at the WRONG PERSON!:rolleyes:

Please, do not insult others by claiming that MILLIONS of Jews dying during the Holocaust is a "TIRED FANTASY"!:down:

----
P.S. Did anyone else see that clip of Obama & Biden ordering hamburgers?

[Jack Nelligan]

Are these books written single-spaced or double-spaced?
Incorrect. Now, I hate to admit this but in the 2nd Anglo/Boer War (1899-1902) when Britain realized they were losing, as a deterrent, they started rounding up Boer civilians, put them in concentration camps with no facilities and let them die (we're talking women & children here). Yes, Britian invented concentration camps (I'm sorry to say:o). While I don't remember the numbers offhand, MORE Boer civilians than Boer combatants died during that war. I could probably find other examples that pre-date WW2 but am not going to waste my time anymore than I already am.
The "ugly head" reared sometime ago. He should change his avatar from Gobler to Vogel...
Allow me to reply in a way you will understand:

Someone once posted a joke about the navy/dropping bars of soap.

You were insulted by this.

You started an thread to tell everyone this was an insult to YOU and the ENTIRE US NAVY. http://raven.theraider.net/showthread.php?t=10454

The FUNNIEST thing is that you were mad at the WRONG PERSON!:rolleyes:

Please, do not insult others by claiming that MILLIONS of Jews dying during the Holocaust is a "TIRED FANTASY"!:down:



That link above is good stuff!

It looks like someone is a little too sensitive! Could FINN have struck a nerve? :whip:

How could anyone be offended by that joke. It’s as old as the Navy!

And by the way, I served in the Navy! USS Pensacola out of Norfolk! GO NAVY!

[Jack Nelligan]

I'll be off until Monday, and I can't wait to get back and see what MONKEY has revealed to us over the weekend! See ya then! ;)

[Stoo]

That link above is good stuff!There's more where that came from...:p (and who you mentioned above was NOT repsonable for "striking the nerve".)

Apart from the Obama/Biden hamburger thing, there was also a story from a couple of months ago where Obama was visiting a city/town that Michelle is familiar with. She told him about a restaurant/greasy-spoon that she liked and The President went there to eat! Motorcade and all. I don't recall where this happened but I like it...:)

[Finn]

Could FINN have struck a nerve? :whip: If only. The guy was drunk and accused the one who had a post BELOW the guy who insulted him.

As far as the topic progression goes... war is an ugly ordeal. There is no good, nor evil. Just one side... and the other. And both are out there to protect their own selfish interests.

[Pale Horse]

...or "The are no Raven Moderators"....in war. ;)

[Moedred]

I had an inkling monkey was leading to holocaust denial when Dresden came up... there's a belief that the footage we've all seen of Auschwitz mass graves was really filmed at Dresden. No need to connect the dots further monkey, my understanding of your position (http://raven.theraider.net/showpost.php?p=249091) has crystalized.

The young Germans I've met and visited were very apologetic if the subject of the World Wars came up, even though that was before their time. (Once a Spaniard expressed regret over the Inquisition! Yeesh.) But they showed me the rebuilt historic Nuremberg and said the allies overbombed in 1945. Maybe so, but one must understand it had been a miserable thirty years and Germany needed a timeout. (So did Japan; google Nanking.) Inglorious Basterds is a hit in Germany partly because it (spoiler) presents a version of history where German cities are spared, like Prague, which somehow missed all the action. That's perfectly understandable. So is much of history.

[Robyn]

monkey:And "schindler's list' was the biggest bunch of Zionist propaganda crap ever produced.

monkey I've tried to make peace with you but this is more than I can take.. As Moedred said, you've made it loud and clear that you HATE the Jews!:mad: As I said before, why don't you go have a chat with some of the Holocaust survivors and tell them that that you think the Jew massacre at the hands of the Nazi's was all "fantasy" and "propaganda crap":mad: :rolleyes:

Finn, I've really come to like you, but frankly I'm becoming a wee bit tired of you backing this guy up... Whether he served in the Navy or not, this kind of an attitude is not only disgusting, it's down right Nazi!:mad:

[Pale Horse]

Robyn: Education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or your self-confidence ~ Robert Frost.

[Gear]

... it's down right Nazi!:mad:



You do know that in online discussion, it's considered a law of conduct that the first person to use Hitler or Nazism in this kind of context as an analogy automatically looses the debate?

[Robyn]

Robyn: Education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or your self-confidence ~ Robert Frost.

Yes you're right, sorry about that. I usually do try not to get angry, but this is pretty bad!


You do know that in online discussion, it's considered a law of conduct that the first person to use Hitler or Nazism in this kind of context as an analogy automatically looses the debate?

Well Gear after that picture you posted in Rocket's thread, I'm not so sure about your attitude either..

http://plaza.ufl.edu/ttoastt/jews.jpg

[Finn]

Robyn,

I wasn't aware that I was "backing someone up" when I made a point about certain member's personal history. Especially when I without drawing a breath attempted to emphasize that I don't see eye to eye with him on all issues. This whole matter concerning the holocaust is definitely something where I find the conventional history being probably little closer to the truth.

But I do think he deserves a little credit for his opinions concerning the methods of the Allies, as in war every side partakes in atrocities, it just tends to be so that the victor gets away with it. But again, I don't agree with all the methods he uses to express these bits of knowledge.

What comes to this discussion, I'm inclined not to take any sides. But I can't help respecting monkey for his bravery, which he has displayed in both taking part in an armed conflict and putting his reputation at risk by talking against the norm. The guy has guts, and I'm giving him that.

[Robyn]

Robyn,

I wasn't aware that I was "backing someone up" when I made a point about certain member's personal history. Especially when I without drawing a breath attempted to emphasize that I don't see eye to eye with him on all issues. This whole matter concerning the holocaust is definitely something where I find the conventional history being probably little closer to the truth.

But I do think he deserves a little credit for his opinions concerning the methods of the Allies, as in war every side partakes in atrocities, it just tends to be so that the victor gets away with it. But again, I don't agree with all the methods he uses to express these bits of knowledge.

What comes to this discussion, I'm inclined not to take any sides. But I can't help respecting monkey for his bravery, which he has displayed in both taking part in an armed conflict and putting his reputation at risk by talking against the norm. The guy has guts, and I'm giving him that.

I understand what you're saying, I have the highest respect for veterans, my Father is one as well. But monkey's obvious hatred for Jews makes me very upset.

[Finn]

But his obvious hatred for Jews makes me very upset. I can understand that. But losing your temper at me isn't going to be of much help, since I've never expressed any hatred towards Jews, as I have absolutely nothing against them or any other cultural or racial group.

Well, maybe Swedes, but only a little.






<small>Rättvist... ni är okej, min Skandinaviska brorsar.</smal>

[Robyn]

I can understand that. But losing your temper at me isn't going to be of much help, since I've never expressed any hatred towards Jews, as I have absolutely nothing against them or any other cultural or racial group.

Well, maybe Swedes, but only a little.






<small>Rättvist... ni är okej, min Skandinaviska brorsar.</smal>

No you're right, I'm sorry about that Finn! Didn't mean anything against you, I like you:hat:

[monkey]

If only. The guy was drunk and accused the one who had a post BELOW the guy who insulted him.

Thank you Finn,

Yes, I remember that I was quite "Off" the night that I made that post.

I apologize to you again here for it.

You are a good man, this is a good forum.

So I will take a break from it.

I don't want to cause any more trouble.

[monkey]

Someone once posted a joke about the navy/dropping bars of soap.
You were insulted by this.
You started an thread to tell everyone this was an insult to YOU and the ENTIRE US NAVY. http://raven.theraider.net/showthread.php?t=10454
The FUNNIEST thing is that you were mad at the WRONG PERSON!:

That's right Stoo. I'm glad it was funny for you. Maybe you don't have enough things to entertain you in your life.

It was an insult to the US Navy, and YES I did get mad at the WRONG PERSON. Because I was very drunk and could barely focus on my keyboard.

I've since apologized to that wrong person.

So you are a BETTER PERSON than me?

OK, yes you are.

There. Feel better?

You're Awesome!! Far more intelligent than me! Could probably kick my ass in a bar fight!

Feel better?

Good.

At least I have something in my life that I am passionate about.

You will of course take this the wrong way.

Go ahead, I expect it anyway.

Good night.

[monkey]

You do know that in online discussion, it's considered a law of conduct that the first person to use Hitler or Nazism in this kind of context as an analogy automatically looses the debate?

Thanks Gear.

You say it all here!

-Mod snip-, learn to spell! It is:"loses the debate" Not "looses the debate" -snip-

If people here are going to criticize, marginalize, and ostracize me here, at least let it be intellectual people who have half a brain!

I'm tired of reading posts that deride and ridicule me that are written by -snip snip snip- who can't use the English language!

Don't you have spell check????? -snip snip snip snip snip snip snip-

-snip- Gear Guardian, what you are talking about here is the "NON freedom of speech" that people like you, and most of the people of this forum adhere to.

-snip-

PS sorry for the triple posts, but when SO MANY are against you, it sometimes takes time.

[Gear]

...??



I'm not sure who you're referring to, monkey.


And this,

You do know that in online discussion, it's considered a law of conduct that the first person to use Hitler or Nazism in this kind of context as an analogy automatically looses the debate?


... is more satire than the suppression of freedom of speech. I thought that was kind of clear with the elements 'online discussion' and 'automatically loses the debate'.

[Stoo]

It was an insult to the US Navy, and YES I did get mad at the WRONG PERSON. Because I was very drunk and could barely focus on my keyboard.

You're Awesome!! Far more intelligent than me! Could probably kick my ass in a bar fight!Since you have a recurring tendency to be so drunk that you fall flat on your face while taking your first swing...yeah, I probably could!:whip:
Good night.You should get one of these to snuggle up to because it would go well with an Obama Teddy Bear (which actually exists) and an Obama Nite-Lite. They'll help you feel secure while you sleep. Safe from all those American-hatin' Muslims and terrible, conniving, FRIGHTENING Jews who haunt you!:eek:

http://ancientearthentertainment.com/store/images/large/_AUTOIMAGES_JBOB000lg.jpg

***Here's a post that must have slipped by your RADAR some pages back:
The Islamic World's Reaction to his speech

"Obama's speech is an attempt to mislead people and create more illusions to improve America's aggressive image in the Arab and Islamic world." _ A joint statement by eight Damascus, Syria-based radical Palestinian factions, including Hamas.

"Obama's attempt was positive but not effective. As long as the U.S is supporting Israel there will be no hope for better U.S.-Islamic relations." _ Niloofar Mirmohebi, an Iranian student in Tehran.

"This vision is so out of touch with reality. ... You can have your speechwriters find every good thing a Muslim has ever done. But more modern history is that the Muslim world is at war with the Western world." _ Aliza Herbst, 56, a spokeswoman for Yesha, the West Bank settlers' council.

"The Islamic world does not need moral or political sermons. It needs a fundamental change in American policy beginning from a halt to complete support for Israeli aggression on the region, especially on Lebanese and Palestinians, to an American withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan and a stop to its interference in the affairs of Islamic countries. We have not seen any change in US policy towards the Palestinian cause. -Hassan Fadlallah, speaking for Hezbollah in Lebanon

[Pale Horse]

PS sorry for the triple posts, but when SO MANY are against you, it sometimes takes time.


Since you missed mine, apology accepted.

[Jack Nelligan]

Thanks Gear.

You say it all here!

-Mod snip-, learn to spell! It is:"loses the debate" Not "looses the debate" -snip-

If people here are going to criticize, marginalize, and ostracize me here, at least let it be intellectual people who have half a brain!

I'm tired of reading posts that deride and ridicule me that are written by -snip snip snip- who can't use the English language!

Don't you have spell check????? -snip snip snip snip snip snip snip-

-snip- Gear Guardian, what you are talking about here is the "NON freedom of speech" that people like you, and most of the people of this forum adhere to.

-snip-

PS sorry for the triple posts, but when SO MANY are against you, it sometimes takes time.



MONKEY:

No one was against you until you started spouting out your baseless drivel that you claimed to be fact. I think your point of view on WWII has been exposed for the nonsense that it is, and your true anti-Semitic feeling have been exposed. It is really sad to see someone who supposedly served this country in the Navy, have such a distain for the ideals that the Navy has fought for and defended over the 200 plus years of our country.

As someone who also served in the U.S. Navy, I find you lack of sense of humor over the “soap” joke very telling. Why so sensitive??? My father was a Marine and we used to throw insults and jokes back and forth about the others branch of service and we would just laugh it off as just good fun.

“Methinks thou dost protest too much”!!!



Also, let me know if you need another history lesson and I be happy to school you again.

Have a nice day!!!

[RedeemedChild]

Yes you're right, sorry about that. I usually do try not to get angry, but this is pretty bad!




Well Gear after that picture you posted in Rocket's thread, I'm not so sure about your attitude either..

Amen. I agree with you. That poster nearly makes me want to duke it out with these haters. I mean, we're living in 2009 people, this is the 21st century knocking on the door of the 22nd century and racism, sexism and biased ideas and pure hatred should have been put behind the human race years ago.

I mean, when I was child and my father introduced me to Star Trek and told me of Gene Roddenberry's beautiful vision for mankind's future I was amazed and believed in it ( and I still do) but I'm very sad at how some people still cling to the dark and foolish hateful doctrines and ideas of the past.

I was pleased with Maria Shriver's interview on Meet The Press as she chronicled how we have made progress in overcoming sexism and how women are gaining a foothold not only here in America but around the world. Her new project A Woman's Nation is quite impressive and yes as David Gregory pointed out we have made a lot of progress with a Hispanic (Sonia Sotomayor) as Supreme Court Justice, an African-American (Barack Obama) as President and Sarah Palin the first woman ( a beautiful one at that IMO) having run for the FIRST time as Vice President. Yet I'd still like to point out that we could have made a lot more progress if we did not have all these prejudice's holding us back from the mighty strides that we could have been making.

BTW I think that monkey is a nice gentlemen, however like Spock in ST TOS he might have a few misunderstandings about some of the peoples of the earth. However anger will not help to promote peace anymore than prejudice will.

Therefore I say to you all and Monkey: Live Long and Prosper.

http://granitegrok.com/pix/StarTrekSpaceHippies2.JPG

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/maria-shriver/a-womans-nation_b_187244.html

[Jack Nelligan]

George Santayana wrote:

"Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it,"


Same goes for those who do not understand history, or misinterpret it!