The Amazing Return of Sallah?

[bob]

'allo

(Yes slightly OTT title but just writing a name seems a bit dull)

There has been very little discussion on one of the best loved characters in the Indy Saga namely Sallah, i think it has been asummed by many that he will just be back but i think there are some interesting arguements for and aganist in his return....again.

Really in Raiders i got the impression that Sallah was just another of Indys contacts, but he grew so that in the end he could not be killed off and he became a pillar of the Indy Universe despite his absence from all but the most obscure non-movie material. By the time LC came along Sallah had lost his family that had figured heavily in Raiders and had become the comic relief, his character had been watered down, but i dont think this mattered much as it fitted the climax at the end of the film and made a good ending for the series as we know LC was going to be the final Indy film....oh dear.

I dont see any point in Sallah being in Indy IV (I mean as a sidekick rather than the infamous 'Nostalgia' scene) if he is once again going to be along for the ride. Also i think that once you emerge into the 50's Sallahs character just doesnt work he is just as much of a relic of a bygone age as Indy, the British would have left Egypt and even gone to war and never again would at least in Egypt Foreginers fight their wars in Egypt as in Raiders. The world of the 50's is a far more real world, and Sallah would need to reflect this. LC watered down the character of Sallah to his bare essentials, into almost a charicature. I' am not sure if Sallah can be rescued from what LC turned him into. I doubt for various Poltical, story and reasons of avoiding endless desert that Indy IV will take place in Egypt or the Middle East so why should Sallah be there?. Is it that Sallah has become a vital part of the formula?

On the otherhand Sallah is a much loved character who i believe should come along, but not just for the ride as he was in LC as this would repeat LC. It seems to me that an arguement can be made that LC was the end of one era of Indy and as LC destroyed so much (Indys edge, Marcus into a fool, Sallah into comic arab) to create the brilliant piece that it is that maybe there should be a break with the past esps as Marcus is dead, Henry is an octogenerian.

But i dont know you tell me.......

[swords]

It would be difficult to make Sallah return to Indy 4 because of all the reasons stated by bob. Since Sallah is beloved by Indy fans though, how about he returns just as Indy's friend? He doesn't have to be a contact or part of the plot like he was in Raiders and Crusade, but instead he accompanies Indy's voyages just for the sake of friendship?

I had a similiar thread involving Dan Ankroid's character returning for Indy 4 as Indy's sidekick, but he is also complicated by the same reasons Sallah's is. I believe that friendship would be the best reason that someone like Sallah or Webster would fit into the movie.

[Edited by swords on 01-08-2003 at 01:36 pm]

[Attila the Professor]

You see, Indy IV is in a no-win situation in some respects.

If you include Sallah, IV becomes a nostalgia-filled rehash of the others.
If you don't include Sallah, Indy IV becomes just another adventure film and not the important conclusion that it should be.

If you include Marion, IV becomes a sappy return to Raiders and the sort of the thing we saw in Saucermen from Mars, Sons of Darkness, and Sword of Arthur (interesting that all 3 Indy IV scripts ["real" or otherwise] would all have that characteristic - people are dead, Indy encounters Marion, another old flame, or marriage).
If you don't include Marion, it seems that the girl has no purpose and is just there to fulfill the formula, instead of what happened in the first 3, representing the 3 classic types of women in the old serials.

Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera...

[bob]

Heres an idea that could blow some life into the Indy - Sallah relationship, one of Sallahs sons could be involved with Sallah no longer doing all the physical things.
And if Indy has a son as well then there would be an interesting full circle parallel.

[Maj. Eaton]

~casually walks over to three men who have been sitting quietly for some time. "Three men sitting in a bar so intimately without speaking, must know something," he thinks to himself. Realizing that bob has been involved in a conversation with the table next to him, he decides to speak to the one in the middle, the one, with his back to the bar. Eaton, taps him on the shoulder.~

Excuse me, my name is Maj. Eaton. ~pulls up a chair~ I hope you don't mind the intrusion. What makes you so sure Sallah won't contact Professor Jones in the near future. My sources indicate they have been corresponding for quite some time now. In fact, we have intercepted a communiqué quite of the two discussing a find recently in India.

Since Jones is our primary target, we decided to make intimate contact with Sallah to try to track Jones down. Then we hit a snag.

It seems that Sallah has been discussing many things with people inside Jones' circle. In fact, we have learned that Jones is planning an expedition in the near future, but for some reason, Sallah has been left out. While Sallah is remaining corroperative, he has no details to speak of. At this point, we believe that he will not be involved with Jones directly, but perhaps, he will have the information we are seeking, to track the professor down.

I assure you Sallah's sons have had no part in Professor Jones' life for quite some time now. They saw what he went thourgh down in Cario, and at the Canyon of the Crescent Moon. They will not choose the same path.

If any of you want to speculate how else Sallah may be involved, I'm all ears.

[Joe Brody]

If this has been hashed out, let me know, but otherwise hear me out . . .

Imagine a Sallah who has lost his family in either the war or some other post-war conflict in Egypt. Without his family, Sallah turns into something cold, hard and cynical. By the early '50's he is a widely respected (but notorius) Sydney Greenstreet type character dealing in relics and -- here's the wrinkle -- repatriating them back to the Arab world.

Here's a (little lengthy) excerpt from Keith Windshuttle's critique of Edward Said's Orientalism:

". . . . at the time [Said] wrote his book in the late 1970s, about half of the nineteenth-century Orientalist art that was put to auction in London and Paris was being bought by dealers for Arab clients living in the West. Today, collectors of North African, Near and Middle Eastern descent totally dominate the market for these paintings, with Western and Japanese buyers all but priced out. Islamic collectors have voted with their petrodollars. Palaces and mansions throughout North Africa and the Persian Gulf are now liberally adorned with those same portrayals of their culture by Delacroix, Ingres, Gérôme, Deutsch, and others that Said and his followers claim are so demeaning."

One of the biggest stories in arheaology today is the repatriation of relics taken by people like Indy. Let's say in the 1950's Sallah is just ahead of the curve and is already taking steps to reclaim stolen relics (by whatever means necessary?).

I wouldn't have advanced this a year or so ago, but the more I read from Rhys-Davies the more I think he likes messing with us fans . . . and I wouldn't mind seeing him turned into a kind of Belloq-type villian. Take away a guy's family (especially a family like Sallah's) and who knows how he'll turn?

[I agree that this type of a story could have some political problems if not handled well. If anything the repatriation story could be dropped and he could just be another underground dealer.]

[Edited by Joe Brody on 01-28-2004 at 01:29 pm]

[00Kevin]

I think GL already has 1 furry companion returning, no need for Sallah, I'm with <strike>ren</strike> <small>Randy</small> on this one

[Edited by 00Kevin on 01-28-2004 at 01:50 pm]

[Randy_Flagg]

I thought it was already confirmed that John Rhys-Davies isn't in Indy4 (didn't he say so in an interview?) And I can't imagine they'll get another actor.

Anyway, I think it's for the best. Leave Sallah out. Indy4 doesn't have to be "THE GRAND FINALE" even if it is the last film. I'll settle for a good adventure in the style of the previous ones, but not a carbon copy. Temple of Doom didn't have Marcus or Sallah, and it didn't suffer as a result (it may have had other shortcomings, but the lack of those two characters didn't affect it.)

[Maj. Eaton]

~notices the conversation heating up.~

I see many of you here have some intimate knowledge of this Sallah. Perhaps his contact with Jones is more than just a floating desire of his friends. Personally, I have no information that would link him to Professor Jones' current projects. But maybe, just maybe he can help us spoil Dr. Jones plans. Time will tell.

[bob]

Originally posted by Randy_Flagg
Temple of Doom didn't have Marcus or Sallah, and it didn't suffer as a result (it may have had other shortcomings, but the lack of those two characters didn't affect it.)


I think Temple of Doom did even at that early stage in the franchise suffer from the lack of those familiar characters....

However Indy IV is only really being made ultimately to tap into the nostalgia for the Indy trilogy, they are crowd pleasing movies and i think it would be a shame not to have Sallah in this movie.

I love the idea of Sallah becoming something of an antagonist to Indy (even though Sallah is a westernised tame Arab who sings Gilbert and Sullivan) and i think that the idea of artifacts being the possesions of the origin country is fascinating and probably more relevant to Indy as even the Cold War as it is this that in real life that would kill off someone like Indy.
However wouldnt this situation make Indy something of a bad guy rather than Sallah?

[Maj. Eaton]

~smirks~

Maybe you've misunderstood me. I am asking for information about Jones. I came across this conversation about Sallah, and figured these men may know something. I will stay until I am satisfied.

~doesn't blink~

[Finn]

There's something I'd like to add here.

In my opinion, Sallah's presence relies heavily on the location the adventure is taking place. If it's Middle East or Asia Minor and Indy needs someone he can rely on, Sallah is a natural choice. Another way around, ToD began in China, so Indy had a Chinese man (who unfortunately died) and a Chinese kid as his sidekicks. If the adventure e.g. takes place in Siberia, it would be very improbable for Indy to have a Native South American or a Hutu tribal from Africa by his side.

If Indy in some point of his new adventure travels into Middle East, bring Sallah in, that's just fine (actually it would have been cool for him just to show in IM, since the location was okay - maybe a minor role, drop Indy somewhere and leave).

The characters must be run by the story - not the other way around.

[Maj. Eaton]

~realizes Ren must have been imagining something.~

You obviously have a problem with my inquiries. What, praytell is it?

[Maj. Eaton]

~Ponders about the hostility he is receiving~

Why are you so against my inquiries here?

[Maj. Eaton]

~brushes his overcoat, as though he just endured a storm.~

My dear sir, how I conduct my business and inquiries is my own. I may be new to this bar, but before I walked through the door to being my quest, I paid close attention to the rules posted at the door. Aside from a bit of my own cynicism, most here have been cordial, and eloquent; even engaging to my eccentric style. In addition, I havn't broke one, aside from this digression.

Alas, I seem to recall that this conversation was progressing rather well, prior to your interuption. Now, if I may so kindly ask, ignore my more unsual style of conversation, if you must. This bar is big, and I have no quarrel with you. I am merely looking for answers to the many questions so many of you all have in this bar. I can also offer many observations that might provide key insight to why we are all here.

As a gesture of my good faith, would you share a glass with me, as we continue to talk about Sallah's role in Professor Jones' next expedition?

~extends his right hand.

[Maj. Eaton]

While I may do things differenly with other people here in this bar, I will remember your preferences when talking to to, you deserve that. No harm, nor foul, the next round is on me.

[Maj. Eaton]

Just a cynical Jones fan looking for any kind of spoilers to support or debunk the next 'supposed' film. A long time ago I came as a guest, message boards weren't my thing. It's different now.

[Finn]

Hmm... someone's in trouble now. I just wish I could say who exactly.

[Joe Brody]

Wow. I go to shovel some snow, put my girls to bed and watch some 'High Sierra' -- and I come back here to find that all Hell's broken loose and peace restored just as quickly. Crazy stuff.


O.K. Back on subject:

I don't really care if Sallah's really back in Indy IV or not. I just like kicking around hypotheticals. As for Rhys-Davies not being approached about being in Indy IV, I've read the same stuff -- but like I said, I suspect him of messing with the fans. He's a stange bird.

bob,

You say that dealing with Indy stealing artifacts would cast Indy as the bad guy -- but hasn't the audience already bought into IJ's flexible morality? True, he's a bad guy, but he's not a Belloq who will kill people indiscriminately to acheive his objectives. I'm talking Indy as one shade of gray and a Sydney Greenstreet-esque Sallah (dealing through surrogates) who is just a darker shade (and is willing have blood spilled).

What's compelling about Sallah as bad guy is that the early 1950's is when Arab nationalism/radicallism really started to spill over and -- as it turns out -- that the nuts on middle eastern artifacts isn't guys like the Curator of the National Museum (or Hitler) -- but Sheiks suddenly made rich on oil. There's a certain poetic justice that a guy who spent his whole life digging up and shipping relics out of Egypt is now the guy trying to bring relics back -- or keep them in country (by foiling a guy like Indy).

I think that one of the toughest things to do in a film is to come up with a compelling villain. How many variations of Hans Grubber have we all had to watch over the years? Sallah as bad guy would be a nice twist and to watch him (singing his western songs) as a Sydney Greenstreet-type would be too sweet. Get him a fly-swatter!


[Edited by Joe Brody on 01-28-2004 at 07:11 pm]

[Pale Horse]

Sallah is a friend and a laborer, I don't think he has any back ground in antiquities, nor could he have ever gained enough knowledge to become a "Belloq" in/by the 50's.


In addition, while Belloq was a good advesary to Indy, he was by no means as compelling as Gruber.

I would like to see someone as good a Gruber, but I don't think that will come from Sallah.

[Edited by apalehorse on 01-28-2004 at 07:19 pm]

[Randy_Flagg]

Two comments--

Ren-- Having worked with kids as a teacher, I can safely tell you that you're only encouraging Maj Eaton by acknowledging him, even in a negative way. If he really bothers you that much, just turn a deaf ear to him (and that doesn't mean saying "LALALA I can't hear you!" it means not replying at all.) I just assume he (or she?) is very young (maybe 9 or 10?) and I think for someone that young, he/she writes pretty well and has a decent imagination. Of course, if I'm wrong and he/she is a lot older, then it's kind of sad.

Finn-- I agree very much with what you said. The characters should follow the story. As you said, if Indy is in the Middle East, it makes sense to have Sallah. But since we already had two adventures in that region of the world, I'd rather see Indy4 take place somewhere else, and therefore, no Sallah. He really isn't an integral character to me. He was little more than a bit of comic relief in Last Crusade.

[Doc Savage]

I'm all about Sallah, I like John Rhys-Davies, but this is an Indiana Jones project we're talking about. If the locale calls for it, copacetic. But if Indy's in Hawaii or some other tropic locale, wouldn't Sallah's fez stick out a bit? Let the adventure determine the task force. I'm looking forward to meeting more of Dr. Jones' colleagues.

To address an earlier statement about LC caricaturing Sallah and Brody, I disagree. Many scholars (i.e. Brody) are masters of their respective domains as long as said domains are familiar. Take them to Wal-Mart and they'll wander the aisles for hours with dazed looks on their faces. And maybe Sallah was just at a happier place in life in LC. Perhaps a dozen or so of his infinite offspring had moved out and got jobs or something.

[bob]

Originally posted by apalehorse
Sallah is a friend and a laborer, I don't think he has any back ground in antiquities, nor could he have ever gained enough knowledge to become a "Belloq" in/by the 50's.

[Edited by apalehorse on 01-28-2004 at 07:19 pm]

Actually by 1938 Sallah owned an antiqutes business and while it is i admit a real long shot 15 years is a long time between the movies.

I think that perhaps one of the children of Sallah as an enemy would be better though, Sallah is too much of a harmless westernised 'good' Arab to take the role of any sort post war role as a political arab antagonist and to be honest Sallah is an anarchronism in a 1950's world even more than Indy is...

[Joe Brody]

Originally posted by bob
. . . .Sallah is too much of a harmless westernised 'good' Arab to take the role of any sort post war role as a political arab antagonist and to be honest Sallah is an anarchronism in a 1950's world even more than Indy is...

bob,

That's really well-put and I agree completely. I think I'm catching myself in a bit of an inconsistancy. In a lot of these discussions I really push for an accurate depiction of the '50's with a plot/story appropriate to the time . . . and here I am in this conversation pushing what you rightly call an anachronism for a villian.

There is one thing about Sallah that you consider a weakness that I consider a strength. Due to his original Western origination, I'd argue that Sallah as bad-guy -- as opposed to one of his children -- would help to defuse the political issue. Whereas, I think it would be tougher to dance around the issue with a younger kid who the audience doesn't know.