Atlantis [Archive]

bob

06-15-2003, 06:35 AM

'allo

Lets talk about Atlantis (yes i know we have before), it is in many ways the natural Indiana Jones locale it has an untoched upon mythological heritage (Greece), it has a cultural resonance with us that only the Grail can be said to be had and it also is incredibly mysterious and GL can mould it to his will...

Perhaps that is why it was used in the most high profile non-movie/TV adventure The Fate Of Atlantis.

However i think Atlantis could make a great Indy movie even though it lacks a natural artifact and it is not Judeo-Christian orientated....

What do you think....? (patronising i know but you gotta spell things out plain and simple sometimes)

00Kevin

06-15-2003, 07:50 AM

my initial reaction to seeing this thread was: "we already had the comic/game 'fate of atlantis' and the recent disney movie 'atlantis', wouldn't that be over doing it?"

but I read your post, and there is truth in what you say

It would easily give a chance for us to see greece, which, I think, would be one of the BEST script locations they could have in indy 4

greece is full of history, heritage and culture....indy on a dig or something in greece, sounds rather smashing I should say.....

perhaps they could show atlantis as connections between the middle east........we could see lots of lcations and cultures....very cool

It would be cool to see atlantis...I can't think of any place that is as big and cool....one of the few things that can match the ark and grail

however, I can say for the most part: It WILL NOT be so, they won't make atlantis for these reasons:

-done in FOA
-done in disney film
-(grr, I thought of another logical reason, and now I bloody forgot it.....)

but still, I've never seen any real-life atlantis movie (by that I mean with real people, not cartoons), I think an indy film, made in the 21st century, about atlantis.................solid gold.....:D

Pale Horse

06-15-2003, 09:59 AM

I agree, and have many comments on Atlantis. I would want to have it approached from a very historic, realistic view. Eden and the birth of civilization would be fantasy, Atlantis should be scientific, real, tangible.

Greece would also be a wonderful cinematic setting, and we don't even have to go into the possibility of romance. It would also lend itself to many subplots we have already discussed, with lesser greek artifacts.

00Kevin

06-15-2003, 06:56 PM

I know, but since greece is the only (I think) sorce of it's existance, wouldn't indy start his quest there anyways???

and as I mentioned befor: with atlantis, you could say that it was a bridge between egypt and mexico or something, indy needs to find clues in those places

these Ideas could make the Ideal Indy flick

Attila the Professor

06-15-2003, 07:44 PM

Kevin's right, Indy could encounter just about any of the great civilizations, if Atlantis is the plot...or it could be Greco-centric.

00Kevin

06-15-2003, 08:01 PM

Originally posted by Attila the Professor
Kevin's right, Indy could encounter just about any of the great civilizations, if Atlantis is the plot...or it could be Greco-centric.

indeed

BTW, how far did the greek army get in it's golden age? they could use some of the places they captured too!

Indy Smith

06-16-2003, 06:08 AM

The live-action TV show of the Stargate Franchise is going to focus on something to dowith Atlantis. It may be touched upon on the next movie or the Spin-off series of SG-1 which is titled "Stargate:Atlantis".

Randy_Flagg

06-16-2003, 08:49 AM

In a sense Atlantis has already been found. Of course, no one knows if what they found is specifically what Plato was talking about, but it matches pretty well in a few respects--

1. The three ring structure: The sunken landmass, in the Mediterranian, consisted of an oddly structured mountain range, which did, in fact form rings (not perfectly round, of course, but close enough.) There was an outer ring of mountains, then valleys, then rising again for an inner ring, another valley, and a central peak. Assuming the inhabitants of Atlantis built their cities on the mountains' peaks, and if the valleys were flooded, this would match Plato's description of the "three concentric rings" that comprised Atlantis.

2. An advanced civilization: Excavators found flooded dwellings on this landmass that supported Plato's account of an advanced civilation on Atlantis. The houses had multiple stories (something that was unheard of elsewhere in the time they were built), and the faucets had taps for hot and cold water (again, this was rare, to say the least.) They also found broken remains of odd machines and contraptions (including one item which they believe may have been a crude attempt at a flying vehicle.)

I can't remember the rest of the details, but if this special ever comes on TV again, be sure to watch it... it was quite interesting (and, of course, if you ever get to take a trip to the Mediterranian, be sure to visit!)

Barryson Ford

06-16-2003, 09:19 AM

[
however, I can say for the most part: It WILL NOT be so, they won't make atlantis for these reasons:

-done in FOA
-done in disney film
[/B][/QUOTE]

So what , like that has ever stopped Hollywood , alien-invasion films have been done before but that didn't stop them from making 'Signs'...

Hey George i have this great idea , would absolutely make a smashing Indy film,its about Atlantis.
Sorry Frank not possible there is an obscure videogame made 10 years ago which is also about Atlantis.

bob

06-16-2003, 10:43 AM

The great thing about Atlantis is that it means a lot of things to different people it can go from the probable reality (if any) behind the story to the antidulivant world in which the atlantians could fly etc to Hancock in which Atlantis or an atlantis esqe culture spread civilisation...

My only concerns (the glass is always half empty for me) with the idea is that:

1. Anyone who remmebers FOA will recall the rather sterile visit to Atlantis and i personally do not feel that a visit to a place such as Atlantis should be in an Indy film as it lends itself too far to fantasy
2. The lack of an artifact FOA made up the orchaliaum (or some such thing) although the comic/game were by no means bad the lack of a central artifact did make the tension and the scope of the story suffer
3. There is no Judeo-Christian artifact and i really think that this would possibly take away a lot from the film not because it is Judeo-Christian but it just lacks the passion and the spirituality that even the Shankara Stones had; there could not really be the wonder of Grail or the fufillment at the end of ToD. Atlantis is just not related with the real world
4. Indy going under the sea is not a place that Indy belongs and i cannot imagine action sequences involving Indy in Atlantis it just wouldnt fit

However i still think Atlantis is undeniably the 'natural' choice for an Indy film with completely diffetrent environments from trilogy (Greek Islands possibly!) and a whole new backdrop (ancient Greece) which i believe is one of the richest and relatively fresh there is for a film of this type.

If i was forced to make a decision about the next Indy film i would go for Atlantis over Eden/Spear of Destiny etc

Marcus Petrius

06-16-2003, 11:21 AM

The makers of FoA didn't just think of ornichalcum (sp?), it was actually in Plato's dialogue IIRC (It's been five years since I read it). They used it to strengthen the walls.
There could however be a link with the Jewish world, because even Hitler said there was a link between the Jews and the Atlanteans. I'm not saying Hitler is a topnotch anthropologist, but a vague reference could be made.

Anyway, for the story, Indy would first have to find the lost second half of Plato's Kritias dialogue, so that turns him back to the sands of Egypt were he is searching for this text in Alexandria (Great Library, remember). He finds it, but the whole library get's destroyed, burning other great historical finds like the second book of Aristotle's poetics ("You don't find that on every bookshelf.").
Then there would be a race for the artifact which has the exact location of Atlantis.

However, I don't think the mediterranean setting would be very good, with the commies and all. You have troubles with Israel and it's neighbours, and the USSR supporting the arabs, but there isn't much to go on in Greek-Italian direction.

And I don't really like Atlantis. If I want to hear some crummy theory about giants that used to inhabit the world (They probably would have come here using flying saucers), I'll go and get a book by Erich von Dänicken. It usually gives me a great laugh too.

Randy_Flagg

06-16-2003, 11:27 AM

Originally posted by bob
2. The lack of an artifact FOA made up the orchaliaum (or some such thing) although the comic/game were by no means bad the lack of a central artifact did make the tension and the scope of the story suffer

Just to nitpick--
Orichalcum was not made up. According to Plato's account, the temple on the center ring of Atlantis was very rich in gold, silver and orichalcum. Granted, its use in Atlantis was made up (we assume...), but I could live with that; afterall, the Sankara stones were fictional too.

Also, I don't think the game's story was at all weakened by not having a central artifact. Atlantis WAS the artifact. Anyway, I don't think Indy IV needs to be a carbon copy of Raiders and Crusade-- maybe forsaking the central Judeo/Christian artifact in favor of a mythological place wouldn't be such a bad idea.

My biggest problem with using Atlantis is that it sank. You can't walk around the streets of Atlantis anymore, so what would we end up with? Something that looks like the beginning of "Titanic," in which some submarines and underwater equipment float past it. In the game, Atlantis had a roof and an airlock (those Atlantians were well-prepared, weren't they? But then why did they all die? Presumably not from drowning.) Anyway, Atlantis would not be covered and waterproof in the real world, nor should it be in an Indy movie. The only way Indy could actually walk through Atlantis in a movie setting would be if Atlantis actually rose from the ocean depths. Some nuts out there actually believe Atlantis will, indeed, rise again one day, but it seems a little too crazy for an Indy movie.

[EDIT-- SORRY Marcus, I see you beat me to the Orichalcum point!]

bob

10-04-2003, 06:16 AM

I am ressurecting this thread because i am beginning to think that Atlantis will be the next artifact simply becasue it is the only 'artifact'/legend that can compare with the grail without becoming a little silly (i.e. Eden)

Also the Nazis really did go after Atlantis

And FOA is pretty much forgotten by almost everyone except grizzened old Indy fans and adventure game fans, and the subject for the general movie goer is the best.

intergamer

10-04-2003, 11:30 AM

Lets do greco-roman, but not atlantis (or maybe mention is subtley or something)

atlantis is too unoriginal for IJ4

Marcus Petrius

10-05-2003, 10:12 AM

Tomb of Alexander the Great, anyone?
Of course that would have no value other than the scientific one, so I don't think that it would be done.

Venture

10-05-2003, 12:54 PM

Indy doesn't have to find Atlantis itself. Perhaps an artifact that conclusively proves its existence, jealously guarded by a remnant of Atlantean descent, a la the Brotherhood of the Cruciform Sword.

Aaron H

10-05-2003, 08:05 PM

Maybe he is searching for the "cradle of life"...oh wait, sorry that was already done (abit poorly).:)

Atlantis would make a great location, but not the main goal.

Marcus Petrius

10-06-2003, 05:22 AM

In the movie that was about the cradle of life, there was quite a bit of stolen Indy material

Text from the trailer:
"An Egyptian pharaoh had found a box of life and death"

Sounds a lot like the Ark in it's Raiders context.

A motorcycle ride over the Chinese wall?
I think we all read about this before in some early Temple of Doom version.

LASTCRUSADER

10-06-2003, 01:36 PM

Originally posted by Cain
Indy doesn't have to find Atlantis itself. Perhaps an artifact that conclusively proves its existence, jealously guarded by a remnant of Atlantean descent, a la the Brotherhood of the Cruciform Sword.

I'll agree with that.An artifact from Atlantis could be interesting.

Venture

10-06-2003, 02:51 PM

I've never played FoA, so I don't know what kind of artifact was in it. Maybe a cuneiform-type map that leads to a Doomsday device of some sort, bringing about the intervention of the aforementioned Brotherhood. It could all tie in to Atlantis' destruction...

intergamer

10-06-2003, 07:02 PM

Originally posted by LASTCRUSADER
Originally posted by Cain
Indy doesn't have to find Atlantis itself. Perhaps an artifact that conclusively proves its existence, jealously guarded by a remnant of Atlantean descent, a la the Brotherhood of the Cruciform Sword.

I'll agree with that.An artifact from Atlantis could be interesting.

I dunno, that would seemed forced and just as cheesy.

Anything that has been done by a disney movie=too lame.

I think that the holy grail was stretching it.

The ark was awesome: then they slowly get worse and worse.

Randy_Flagg

10-07-2003, 06:05 AM

Originally posted by intergamer
Lets do greco-roman, but not atlantis (or maybe mention is subtley or something)

atlantis is too unoriginal for IJ4

But in a way, that's why it might work. Think of all those cheesy B-movies that focused on Atlantis, and then think how the Indy movies always try to redo those types of movies. It makes sense.

LASTCRUSADER

10-07-2003, 09:27 AM

bob

10-07-2003, 01:18 PM

Marcus Petrius

10-07-2003, 01:48 PM

Atlantis had nothing to do with Greece other than the fact that it is Plato who delivers the story to us. He lets someone tell in a dialogue (Plato doesn't tell us anything, his characters do) that Solon heard it from an Egyptian priest when he was on a trip.

If anything it's Egyptian rather than Greek.

Randy_Flagg

10-07-2003, 04:36 PM

Originally posted by Renderking Fisk
I always thought of Jones fans as people who would like to see the best movies possible. Am I wrong? Seems like the newest trend is to say these movies are JUST send-ups of old B-Movies and Serials and use that as an excuse for some wild explanation.

I always saw these movies as a way for Lucas and Spielberg to take the cliffhanger-swashbuckler formula and improve on it. Tweak it in such a way, as it feels more believable and more engaging. But to just say; “These are really dumb B-Movie send-ups and they can do what ever stupid thing they want” is to see the movies and the fans short.

But I don't think anybody here said “These are really dumb B-Movie send-ups and they can do what ever stupid thing they want” (at least I didn't see that posted anywhere.)

My point was simply that Lucas likes to use a LOT of cliches in the Indy movies as a way of paying homage to the old serial action movies. Come on... the revolving bookcase? The boulder? The sacrificial temples under an Indian palace? Yeah, really original stuff. But it's okay because we know Lucas is doing it tongue-in-cheek AND he's doing it better than it's been done before. He uses the same technique in the Star Wars films. The attack on the Death Star was his take on WW2 dog-fighting movies. The AT-ATs paid tribute to Japanese horror movies like Godzilla. The barges at the Sarlacc pit were a nod to pirate films. The arena in Attack Of The Clones was done in Gladiator movie style. The Podrace in Phantom Menace was his way of doing a Ben-Hur sequence. He admits to all of this. He enjoys it, and we enjoy watching it.

So he COULD do Atlantis, and he could do it better than it's been done before. I, for one, enjoy the way reuses these old cliches and makes them feel fresh again, and I hope he does it again in Indy 4... whether its with Atlantis, aliens, or anything else. Main thing is that he has fun with it and makes it fun for us as he always has done in the past.

intergamer

10-07-2003, 05:26 PM

Originally posted by Randy_Flagg
Originally posted by intergamer
Lets do greco-roman, but not atlantis (or maybe mention is subtley or something)

atlantis is too unoriginal for IJ4

But in a way, that's why it might work. Think of all those cheesy B-movies that focused on Atlantis, and then think how the Indy movies always try to redo those types of movies. It makes sense.

I don't remember <i>that</i> many B-movies on Atlantis: if it were something really preeminent, then it would make sense...but there's only a few at the most.

Atlantis is weak for one other reason: it has no relevance to the time period: 1950s: what's the connection?

bob

10-08-2003, 11:00 AM

Originally posted by Marcus Petrius
Atlantis had nothing to do with Greece other than the fact that it is Plato who delivers the story to us. He lets someone tell in a dialogue (Plato doesn't tell us anything, his characters do) that Solon heard it from an Egyptian priest when he was on a trip.

If anything it's Egyptian rather than Greek.

It is a Greek myth
Posideon (A greek god) floods it
Atlantis has wars with Greece
They have temples to Greek gods

I get your point if Atlantis existed then it would not be greek but the legend is tied up in Ancient Greece and the legend is what is important

Marcus Petrius

10-08-2003, 12:25 PM

They have temple's to Greek gods because it's a Greek guy telling the story.
If you read Herodotos' History, you'll notice that he even uses the names of Greek gods for Egyptian ones.
(Thot=Hermes, Amon=Zeus, Isis=Demeter etc.)
Just an issue of local versions of the story.

Kritias himself gives an explanation about this:
"Yet, before proceeding further in the narrative, I ought to warn you, that you must not be surprised if you should perhaps hear Hellenic names given to foreigners. I will tell you the reason of this: Solon, who was intending to use the tale for his poem, enquired into the meaning of the names, and found that the early Egyptians in writing them down had translated them into their own language, and he recovered the meaning of the several names and when copying them out again translated them into our language. "

Atlantis waged war on Greek states 900 or 9000 years before Plato writes down his story. I can hardly believe there were real, non mythical Greeks leaders and cities by that time. Even 900 years before Plato still puts this story back as far as the rule of the Egyptian pharaoh Ramses II.

Never is there any mention of the flooding of Atlantis in Plato's dialogue. It just abrubtly ends when he's coming to the interesting part, the thing Zeus has decided to do with Atlantis.

This story is not a Greek myth untill it shows up in Plato's dialogue.

Quote from the translation comes from here:
http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/critias.html
translated by:
Benjamin Jowett

Randy_Flagg

10-08-2003, 05:26 PM

Originally posted by intergamer
[QUOTE]Originally posted by intergamer

Atlantis is weak for one other reason: it has no relevance to the time period: 1950s: what's the connection?

What's the connection between the Holy Grail and 1938? The ark and 1936? The stones and 1935?

intergamer

10-08-2003, 06:23 PM

Originally posted by Randy_Flagg
Originally posted by intergamer
[QUOTE]Originally posted by intergamer

Atlantis is weak for one other reason: it has no relevance to the time period: 1950s: what's the connection?

What's the connection between the Holy Grail and 1938? The ark and 1936? The stones and 1935?

yeah, but if you're going to do something thats DISNEY MOVIE material, it has to be something that has specific relevance, in my opinion. And since we're making a sudden jump to the 1950s, there has to be something in there about them. I.E. who are you new enemies? Commies trying to find Atlantis? sounds a little forced

thegreatimposter

10-08-2003, 07:16 PM

We ARE heading toward the Cold War era. The bad guys of the time period were after one thing and one thing only. A weapon of mass destruction. So, we have the japanese: There were rumors (Unsubstantiated of course) that during the second world war, a group of japanese soldiers had directions to the entrance to the Hollow Earth. Apparently Hitler wanted to use that information to pass through the center of the Earth and flank American forces on the other side. Completely far fetched. Or is it? What if Atlantis holds the key to some covert military plans, and the country that can conquer the fabled lost city would have strategic dominance. Secret agents, the Cold War and a Fabled Lost City.

Sounds pretty good.

Still a little Disney, though...

Randy_Flagg

10-09-2003, 09:28 AM

Originally posted by Renderking Fisk
Well, the real chanalenge is for the Fab 5 to make a new movie that's fresh and original but familure enough to be a "Raiders" flick.

The Fab 5? The "Queer Eye" crew is making Indy4??? Whoa. Well, at least we know Indy will be well groomed and have some cooking skills. I can just see those five guys watching Indy on from the screening room... "Oh wow, he's a hunk! Now, let's see if he remembers to apply the hair product in from the back... OH NO!! He's putting a hat on! Shame on him!"

Aaron H

10-09-2003, 05:57 PM

Originally posted by Renderking Fisk
I'm starting my own show... Indy-Eye for the plain Guy... where a whole bunch of us who wear IndyGear teach normal people how to dress.
GREAT! I look forward to any thing you film!

Venture

10-10-2003, 11:51 AM

Originally posted by Aaron H
Originally posted by Renderking Fisk
I'm starting my own show... Indy-Eye for the plain Guy... where a whole bunch of us who wear IndyGear teach normal people how to dress.
GREAT! I look forward to any thing you film!

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! *thump*

Attila the Professor

10-10-2003, 05:35 PM

Originally posted by Renderking Fisk
I'm starting my own show... Indy-Eye for the plain Guy... where a whole bunch of us who wear IndyGear teach normal people how to dress.

Hmm...I've never seen the show, but the way I understand it is that each of the "Five" are in charge of a different thing...culture, fashion, whatever they talk about.

What would the Indy ones be? Fashion gets in, definately...but what else? And who of us is on the show? I'll take culture, if it's open...film, music, and such. ;)

Randy_Flagg

10-10-2003, 06:34 PM

Originally posted by Attila the Professor

Hmm...I've never seen the show, but the way I understand it is that each of the "Five" are in charge of a different thing...culture, fashion, whatever they talk about.

What would the Indy ones be? Fashion gets in, definately...but what else? And who of us is on the show? I'll take culture, if it's open...film, music, and such. ;)

Well someone needs to teach the guy how to use a whip (both for swinging and whipping... hey, that sounds like the name of a seedy club.. "Swingin' and Whippin'"... let's not even think about what goes on there.)

westford

10-11-2003, 03:35 PM

Originally posted by Renderking Fisk
Atlantis was already done before by Disney. So well that it was ALMOST a flick to hold you over.
I think LucasArts went to Atlantis before Disney since Fate of Atlantis came out in 1992...

And do I even want to know what Queer Eye is?

Attila the Professor

10-11-2003, 09:04 PM

Originally posted by westford
Originally posted by Renderking Fisk
Atlantis was already done before by Disney. So well that it was ALMOST a flick to hold you over.
I think LucasArts went to Atlantis before Disney since Fate of Atlantis came out in 1992...

And do I even want to know what Queer Eye is?

Bizarre thing the Americans over at the Bravo premium cable station have come up with that involves five homosexual men giving a complete life makeover to one heterosexual guy...don't blame me, just because I'm an American doesn't mean it's my fault. ;)