Serious brianstorming about Film Noir [Archive]

Pale Horse

11-10-2003, 07:33 PM

'allo
;)

Well, in an effort to tap into the deeply dark and creative minds that are disillusioned with Indy as of late I offer this thread. (I realize it has been touched on before, but I want this to become a deeply engrossing topic worthy of pulitzer accolades). Besides no thread has been dedicated to this topic exclusively.

I would appreciate some guidelines as we explore the potentially dark elements soon discussed. Here they are.

If you are not familiar with noir, familiarize yourself with "its" tenets before you comment.
Try to take what you learn and explore how some concept therein could relate to Indy, or the next movie.
Learn from those who truely desire a dark Indy, and model your responses in the same fashion.
After all of these, challenge yourself (at least in this thread) to see Indy IV as dark, and try to add a response that may make you struggle with your ideal Indy. this means you Canyon.

My hope is that we can get a good foundation of the possible, before nay-sayers and debaters poo-poo the concepts herein. If that may be you, I would respecfully request you use your talents in other threads.

Now: (getting off my soap-box) Here are some thoughts by others on what Film Noir is:

The primary moods are melancholy, alienation, bleakness, disillusionment, disenchantment, pessimism, ambiguity, moral corruption, evil, guilt and paranoia.
The females are either of two types - dutiful, reliable, trustworthy and loving women; or femme fatales. (I personally hope to see some interesting responses concerning this aspect.)
Film noir shows the dark and inhumane side of human nature with cynicism and doomed love, and they emphasize the brutal, unhealthy, seamy, shadowy, dark and sadistic sides of the human experience.
The protagonists in film noir are normally driven by their past or by human weakness to repeat former mistakes.
The French noticed with surprise after the war how a gloomy, pessimistic worldview had replaced much of the formerly sunny optimism of can-do U.S.A. America’s movies were growing darker in the 1940s - not just visually, but also in terms of theme and content.

There it is, there you have it. I anticipate this process will be slow but worthwhile. Come on Raveners, prove me right.

Indy is an alcoholic...from drinking too much whiskey. Having failed to get anything more significant than the Cross of Coronado, he has been relieved of his job at the University, and he works in a warehouse at night, because he is good at cataloguing.

Joe Brody

11-10-2003, 08:33 PM

Originally posted by apalehorse

Indy is an alcoholic...from drinking too much whiskey. Having failed to get anything more significant than the Cross of Coronado, he has been relieved of his job at the University, and he works in a warehouse at night, because he is good at cataloguing.

Slight change(?): Change from "because he is good at cataloguing" to "because he is intent on doing nothing more than cataloguing."

Continuing: Leaving work one night, IJ staggers down a dark street -- emptying his small hip bottle along the way -- and settles on a park bench. The bum on the next bench, says 'cigarette?'

[As for the opening fade, it could be the Paramount logo that goes blurry for an instant and then re-focuses as the label of a bottle of Paramount Brand Whiskey, which IJ picks up off a shelf in the warehouse and then pockets. This was inspired by an Attilla The Professor post on the fade thread.]

This is a great exercise -- you need to stake out the extreme positions to get the middle ground and the best product/result (even though I really want IJ IV to start out with IJ high in the saddle, in gear, in the middle of an action sequence).

[Edited by Joe Brody on 11-11-2003 at 06:54 am]

Randy_Flagg

11-11-2003, 11:25 AM

This thread feels like a homework assignment... and I thought I left all that behind me long ago!

(I'm thinking what to add... will be back)

[Edited by Randy_Flagg on 11-11-2003 at 01:40 pm]

00Kevin

11-11-2003, 01:37 PM

I think Attila will give the best opinion on that kind of a look for indy 4, he is perhaps the most in favor of it, which is why I'm glad he's not writting Indy 4.

No Offense, but I don't want to see indy crying over his life or anything like that, I want to see him kick some BEHIND! ;) I can guarentee that most of the people who will see this movie (commoners, not indianerds) are going to agree with me

the scene where is hits the bottle after marion 'dies' was okay, but that's not that the kind of thing I look forwards to in an indy film. I say make it big, make it fun, make it action-packed!

Pale Horse

11-12-2003, 05:16 PM

:rolleyes:

That's the trouble with enlightenment. No one appreciates the time or journey it takes to acheive it.

00Kevin

11-12-2003, 07:34 PM

I never said anything against it, I will watch it in films that are ment to be like that, but I would hate indy 4 to be like that

Attila the Professor

11-12-2003, 08:56 PM

Don't worry fellas...I'll put more than my fair share of two cents in soon enough...just not right now. ;)

FordFan

11-14-2003, 01:01 AM

Not in an Indy movie though. That's way too gloomy for an Indy movie.

I think this is a great threat, but film noir would never go hand in hand with Indy. It's supposed to be like the serials, not like Othello.

Commoners would be a little turned off to hear that Marion died. Indy fans might find it interesting, but then I think the Indy fans might get a little turned off to hear that Marcus Brody died. The public would go along with it, but I think the fans would want it handled better.

LC was really light, now that I think about it. It was almost slapstick in some parts. An interesting perspective on an Indy movie, but for the last one? No. Let's go back to the way Raiders was.

Joe Brody

11-14-2003, 06:40 AM

I don't think that's really what apalehorse had in mind. In a lot of these old movies, the main character's deviance is largely inferred. For example, in Casablanca we only really see Rick drunk once and then only briefly. There are other stories (none of which are coming to mind) where the lead sobers up quick and is just haunted by the temptation as the story progresses. For the concept pitched above, think of an IJ who did something wrong in the past and now gets the chance to make amends . . . . as he fights to make it right, he gets stronger and stronger as the story progresses.

Like I said, I think this is good exercise -- and maybe we need a disclaimer that posters could add that says: the content/opinions expressed herein do not reflect the poster's hopes and dreams for the actual IJ IV storyline. Now that the DVD's are out, there are a lot of idle hours to fill until IJ IV is released. Again, I think this is a fun exercise. The story doesn't have to be one big downward spiral . . .

I want to hear some story.

[We all know that Joe Brody is just an average grafter. I've already blatantly boosted an idea from Attila the Professor and a scene from 'Treasure of Sierra Madre', so I'd like to see what other people come up with.]

[Edited by Joe Brody on 11-14-2003 at 07:11 am]

Pale Horse

11-14-2003, 07:31 AM

I think the concept of Marion coming back as an embittered Femme Fatal could prove both insightful and interesting.

Randy_Flagg

11-14-2003, 08:30 AM

I just hope the fourth film remains true to the spirit of the last three-- humorous, exciting, and most importantly fun. I'm not sure how a film-noir approach would accomplish any of these characteristics that were so vital to the success of the series. I suppose if your argument is that you didn't like the last three films and you want Lucas to come up with something totally different, then I could see why you want film-noir, but otherwise, I say keep it as it was-- I happened to enjoy the previous films and would be happy to have more in that spirit.

EDIT: I just read Joe Brody's post and it makes sense. If we're just treating this an exercise in writing, fine. As long as we're not saying we hope Indy4 will actually use film-noir approach.

[Edited by Randy_Flagg on 11-14-2003 at 08:33 am]

Pale Horse

11-14-2003, 08:35 AM

this is an exercise. there are many like it. this one is mine. it is a challenge to those who want to exercise.

bob

11-14-2003, 12:16 PM

Great thread, i particularly like the 'allo!

I think that Indy IV should have some dark elements but not so much that it drags down the movie with it, but hypotheticaly here is my conception of Indy Noir as far as i could ever stomach pushing the idea.. (this is not what i want Indy IV to be like!)

My thoughts:

- Indy begins the movie in a Soviet prison in 1949, he is an incredibly bitter man, nothing more than a shell of what he had once been. He has been there since 1945 and the Soviets want his knowledge and expertise about x artifact.
- Indy escapes spectacularly taking back his fedora in the opening sequence and returns to USA
- However Indy is still a bitter man, he has become an alcholic and his dreams are skulked through dreams of the death of Marcus and feelings of betrayal as the US government allowed him to fall into Soviet hands, Indy is widely mistursted by a sinister and incompetant government that he must warn them of the impending threat.
- Indy falls in love (he is far more dependant now, an old man) with a young woman on his travels through a war ravaged Europe but only to emerge that she is in fact a Nazi agent working aganist him as well as the Soviets and to a certain extent the Americans who declare him an outlaw and arrest Henry.
- The movie ends with the woman commiting suicide.

Joe Brody

11-14-2003, 02:22 PM

Originally posted by Renderking Fisk
Joe's always right. We should close the thread and leave it at that.

!?!?!

Mr. Fisk, the opening observation in my last post wasn't directed at you - take a look at my subject line. By referencing 'Lost Weekend' and 'Leaving Las Vegas' I was addressing the earlier posts by people who said they didn't want to see a drunken IJ. Here's the Amazon link for 'Lost Weekend':

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000549B1/qid=1068846348/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-8741902-2052947?v=glance&s=dvd

I'm not trying to be right about anything -- and I freely acknowledge that my contribution wasn't that original. I just want to have some fun kicking around what bob coolly dubbed "Indy Noir".

I'd like to think that we have each other's backs.

Attila the Professor

11-15-2003, 08:30 AM

Joe...I like what you did with the Paramount fade...going out of focus like that...nice.

Now, my ideas:

-There should be a scene where Indy go sits on a park bench at night. It's a wonderful cliche that has appeared in quite a few classic films, Treasure of the Sierra Madre and The Apartment among them. Also, we should see Indy in a trench coat, something that hasn't yet appeared in the films as I recall, except perhaps at the airport in LC. Trench coat and sitting on the bench, perhaps falling asleep on it, with the fedora blowing away in the middle of the night. When he wakes up, there should be an even larger sense of depression, not because of the fedora, but because of something else I'm not sure of that basically relates to Indy losing his sense of heroism and worth (symbolized by the fedora).

Attila the Professor

11-15-2003, 09:56 AM

-It would be a nice, melancholy sort of gag if we see the warehouse at first and we see somebody grab the bottle of Paramount Liquor and then start pushing a crate so we think it is a reference to Raiders, and much of the film will be about the Ark. But then we discover that the "old man" pushing the crate is actually Indy.
-As to the "bad guys," there should definitely be some ambiguity in this regard. There should be, at the very least, Americans and Soviets, with one tragic type of villain on either side, either a military man or a politician. There should be a main villain though, that is neither American or Soviet. Perhaps this could be a former colleague sort of thing. I had some thoughts on this months ago, but I can't seem to find them, I'm afraid. Just so long as it is always hard to tell who is good and who is evil, or even if such concepts actually exist.

intergamer

11-15-2003, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by Attila the Professor
-It would be a nice, melancholy sort of gag if we see the warehouse at first and we see somebody grab the bottle of Paramount Liquor and then start pushing a crate so we think it is a reference to Raiders, and much of the film will be about the Ark. But then we discover that the "old man" pushing the crate is actually Indy.

or the crate could really be a case of wine

thegreatimposter

11-19-2003, 10:01 PM

FADE IN:

<- Indy begins the movie in a Soviet prison in 1949, he is an incredibly bitter man, nothing more than a shell of what he had once been. He has been there since 1945 and the Soviets want his knowledge and expertise about x artifact.> -Posted By Bob

MATCH DISSOLVE PARAMOUNT MOUNTAIN TO:

The peak of a mountain top.

PULL BACK TO REVEAL:

Prison bars. We see the peak of the Soviet Mountain range in the background.

PULL BACK FURTHER TO REVEAL:

INDIANA JONES holding the prison bars looking out pleadingly through the prison window.
He looks rough and beaten. His lips are cut and bloodied. His classic garb has been ripped and torn.

He’s hurting. Bad.

INT. SOVIET PRISON - DAY

Footsteps appear from down the hall, echoing through the prison.
Indy turns from the window.
Suddenly, his knees buckle and he slumps to the ground, groaning.
A soviet guard stops in front of the prison cell.

SOVIET GUARD
Comrade Jones. Stand up and come to the doorway.

Jones groans about his leg, wincing as he reaches down.

SOVIET GUARD
Comrade Jones. I said you must stand up! NOW!

Indy struggles to get up, but he tumbles back to the floor wincing in pain.
The guard forcefully unlocks the door, throws it open and then charges toward Indy. The guard swings and kicks Indy hard.

Indy is thrown over on his side. He collects himself, then abruptly all the wincing disappears from his face.

Indy turns around and clocks the guard with the full strength of his swing.

The guard tumbles over, knocked out.

Indy frantically searches the guard for keys, then darts down the corridor...

TO BE CONTINUED...

Webley

11-20-2003, 02:21 AM

Originally posted by thegreatimposter
Indy frantically searches the guard for keys, then darts down the corridor...TO BE CONTINUED...

He takes the guards gun to.

Pale Horse

11-25-2003, 02:41 PM

I am always partial to the bad guy coming face to face with the good guy. I understand that is a big part of noir. Something like the bar scene in Cario, and the diner scene in "Heat" with Pacino and Dinero. Would something like this occur in a truely noir-ish film?

Attila the Professor

11-25-2003, 07:37 PM

Originally posted by apalehorse
I am always partial to the bad guy coming face to face with the good guy. I understand that is a big part of noir. Something like the bar scene in Cario, and the diner scene in "Heat" with Pacino and Dinero. Would something like this occur in a truely noir-ish film?

I think so...the few that I can think of off the top of my head (The Maltese Falcon, The Big Clock) certainly have that.

FordFan

11-25-2003, 09:09 PM

Why is it that in every single incarnation of Indiana Jones, besides the movies, his dialogue is that of Han Solo? Did anyone else realize this?

He's always more cocky in the novels and written works. Very much like Han Solo...

Joe Brody

11-26-2003, 08:05 AM

O.K. We got the set-up for two stories -- (1) the fedora-less drunken IJ on a park bench and (2) a beaten IJ who's on the verge of getting out of a Soviet prison. Now the fun part. Both stories need some serious action to jump-start the opening sequence and set the plot in motion.

(1) Warehouse Indy: From a plot perspectives there are several possiblities here:
(x) IJ rises from the bench early the next morning and (since there's not enough time to go clean-up) goes back to work at the warehouse where he finds either (i) someone stealing something from the warehouse, or (ii) that some shadowy guys have been looking for him. Depending on the scenario, IJ either gives chase or he IJ bolts and is pursued. . ., or
(y) (building from Attilla's contribution to the opening sequence) The warehouse manager fires IJ for IJ's drinking on the job. The next morning IJ rises from the park bench and follows the bum to go get work on the docks (think 'On the Waterfront') where IJ sees a crate being offloaded under heavy guard. For unknown reasons IJ reacts and moves quickly to take the crate, or
(z) a more sober IJ wakes on the bench and recognizes the bum (or the bum recognizes him). This leads to a big pursuit scene. One after the other, you pick.

(2) Prisoner Indy: This is tougher. You got a broken IJ in the middle of nowhere in the USSR. Does the action continue with him beating the odds and escaping by his own means in 'spectacular' fasion? . . .or does he get some (convenient) help from the girl who (we later learn) happens to be very interested in his knowledge of the artifact? If IJ gets help from the girl who is she and what is she doing in or near the prison? Is she a party figure of some kind?

So where do the stories go?

[I'll weigh in on the hero/villian issue a little later. I love the build-up to the Pacino/DeNiro meeting in 'Heat'.]

bob

11-28-2003, 12:05 PM

Awesome starts on the stories!

But i dunno, i just cant buy Indy as a tramp (Bum) even if the darkest Indy film of all time is being made then it is still a huge leap to go from riding off heroic and truimphant at the end of LC to being a completely pathetic figure in Indy IV, and after having this realism i just dont see how it would be able to climb out of this realism to suspension of disbleief exotic action sequences.

I think that there is enough darkness in the character to make Indy Noir work without resorting to such extreme measures (says the guy who isnt writing the damm thing! :) )

intergamer

11-28-2003, 12:54 PM

Originally posted by FordFan
Why is it that in every single incarnation of Indiana Jones, besides the movies, his dialogue is that of Han Solo? Did anyone else realize this?

He's always more cocky in the novels and written works. Very much like Han Solo...

maybe because Harrison isn't as cocky as the actual Indy character?

Attila the Professor

11-28-2003, 02:48 PM

Originally posted by intergamer
Originally posted by FordFan
Why is it that in every single incarnation of Indiana Jones, besides the movies, his dialogue is that of Han Solo? Did anyone else realize this?

He's always more cocky in the novels and written works. Very much like Han Solo...

maybe because Harrison isn't as cocky as the actual Indy character?

Perhaps I don't understand...what possible relevance can the personality of the actor have to do with various characters he has portrayed and how they are alternately portrayed in various media?

Pale Horse

11-28-2003, 03:09 PM

bob

..it is still a huge leap to go from riding off heroic and truimphant at the end of LC to being a completely pathetic figure in Indy IV, and after having this realism i just dont see how it would be able to climb out of this realism to suspension of disbleief exotic action sequences...

Given this aspect, wouldn't Indy Noir place Henry Jr. in a place where he is entirely cynical about his current station in life? As Rick was in Casablanca (a psudeo-noir-ish film), wouldn't there need to be some tension between Indy as the all-accomplishing hero of yester-year and his present hopelessness that his past merits have gone unawarded? Wouldn't that make place him in a position to cross the line between that which has moral merit, and that which serves his selfish survival interests that he now possesses in his cynicism?

intergamer

11-28-2003, 03:29 PM

Originally posted by Attila the Professor
Originally posted by intergamer
Originally posted by FordFan
Why is it that in every single incarnation of Indiana Jones, besides the movies, his dialogue is that of Han Solo? Did anyone else realize this?

He's always more cocky in the novels and written works. Very much like Han Solo...

maybe because Harrison isn't as cocky as the actual Indy character?

Perhaps I don't understand...what possible relevance can the personality of the actor have to do with various characters he has portrayed and how they are alternately portrayed in various media?

Harrison doesn't play Indiana Jones in the books. In the books, Indiana Jones is Indiana Jones. But in the movies, he may have made Indy less cocky than the character was meant to be in Lucas' original vision - a vision which shines through the books and other mediums which do not have Ford's unique personality dominating the scene.

Attila the Professor

11-28-2003, 03:34 PM

Originally posted by intergamer
Originally posted by Attila the Professor
Originally posted by intergamer
Originally posted by FordFan
Why is it that in every single incarnation of Indiana Jones, besides the movies, his dialogue is that of Han Solo? Did anyone else realize this?

He's always more cocky in the novels and written works. Very much like Han Solo...

maybe because Harrison isn't as cocky as the actual Indy character?

Perhaps I don't understand...what possible relevance can the personality of the actor have to do with various characters he has portrayed and how they are alternately portrayed in various media?

Harrison doesn't play Indiana Jones in the books. In the books, Indiana Jones is Indiana Jones. But in the movies, he may have made Indy less cocky than the character was meant to be in Lucas' original vision - a vision which shines through the books and other mediums which do not have Ford's unique personality dominating the scene.

Ah! Now I understand. Thanks...I'm not sure I agree, but then again I might.

Joe Brody

11-29-2003, 08:13 PM

Originally posted by bob
But i dunno, i just cant buy Indy as a tramp (Bum) even if the darkest Indy film of all time is being made then it is still a huge leap to go from riding off heroic and truimphant at the end of LC to being a completely pathetic figure in Indy IV, and after having this realism i just dont see how it would be able to climb out of this realism to suspension of disbleief exotic action sequences.

I think that there is enough darkness in the character to make Indy Noir work without resorting to such extreme measures (says the guy who isnt writing the damm thing! :) )

I hear what your saying but I think it is precisely because of where LC ended (everything peachy with everyone riding off in the sunset) that it makes sense to have a sequel start with Indy at a real deficit -- perhaps guilty over some mistake he has (or thinks he has) made. Then, during the course of the movie, he gets to atone for the mistake and sets things right. Again, I'm not saying that IJ IV has to be as dark as the two storylines created by others that are being kicked around here. I just happen to be big on stories of atonement and redemption. Plus I'd have real reservations about any story that simply starts with an older Professor Indiana Jones being asked to dust off his gear for one last romp. Is it too late to get Jerry Bruckheimer (who does a pretty good job of coming up with good angles for his heroes) involved in Indy IV? (partial joke)

bob

11-30-2003, 04:28 AM

I hear what your saying but I think it is precisely because of where LC ended (everything peachy with everyone riding off in the sunset) that it makes sense to have a sequel start with Indy at a real deficit -- perhaps guilty over some mistake he has (or thinks he has) made. Then, during the course of the movie, he gets to atone for the mistake and sets things right. Again, I'm not saying that IJ IV has to be as dark as the two storylines created by others that are being kicked around here. I just happen to be big on stories of atonement and redemption. Plus I'd have real reservations about any story that simply starts with an older Professor Indiana Jones being asked to dust off his gear for one last romp. Is it too late to get Jerry Bruckheimer (who does a pretty good job of coming up with good angles for his heroes) involved in Indy IV? (partial joke) [/B][/QUOTE]

Yes i see what you mean, but for the average movie fan's perspective i am not sure if it would work; and if they did do something as radical as the tramp storyline i am sure it would be good but it wouldnt be Indiana Jones.

intergamer

11-30-2003, 09:48 AM

Originally posted by apalehorse

bob

..it is still a huge leap to go from riding off heroic and truimphant at the end of LC to being a completely pathetic figure in Indy IV, and after having this realism i just dont see how it would be able to climb out of this realism to suspension of disbleief exotic action sequences...

Given this aspect, wouldn't Indy Noir place Henry Jr. in a place where he is entirely cynical about his current station in life? As Rick was in Casablanca (a psudeo-noir-ish film), wouldn't there need to be some tension between Indy as the all-accomplishing hero of yester-year and his present hopelessness that his past merits have gone unawarded? Wouldn't that make place him in a position to cross the line between that which has moral merit, and that which serves his selfish survival interests that he now possesses in his cynicism?
I like this.

Originally posted by someone
Yes i see what you mean, but for the average movie fan's perspective i am not sure if it would work; and if they did do something as radical as the tramp storyline i am sure it would be good but it wouldnt be Indiana Jones. [/B]

I do think it would make sense though...and of course, by the climax of the movie, he would become the Indiana Jones we all know and love - he has to, in order to save the day.

Great thread, by the way.

Pale Horse

12-01-2003, 10:14 AM

Renderking Fisk

One of the films mentioned is “The Thin Man”

Ah yes, this one has been floating around in the Classic Films Forum for some time now.

bob

12-01-2003, 01:41 PM

I think that in a consideration of Indy as film Noir we should consider the undertone of Noir underneath much of the proceedings in the trilogy, and perhaps this could give a more realistic idea of a possible more noirish Indy IV.

Raiders

1. The army intelligance guys, they always seemed pretty dodgy and in any film that was set post '45 they would seem pretty sinister 'knew you were coming before i did, seemed to know everything' and then when they discover the power of the ark 'I'm beginning to understand Hitlers interest' as they are seduced by greed.

2. The fact is that Indy is sent off on a covert mission working for the US government in which they know that he may end up killing people; Indy in Raiders however you dress it up is nothing more than a mercenary, yes the Nazis are of course with the benefit of hindsight fair game but in Raiders other than Toht they do very little to justify their status as villains; even Belloq is a man more seduced by his own glory than anything else.

3. The contrast between Sallahs life and Indy life seems to demonstrate the hollowness of Indys lifes pursuit.

4. The indifference of the Arabs seems a very Noirish touch

5. Marion is a very unconventional heroine in that she is not a damsel in distress but rather a strong independant woman who at the same time acts as an expose into Indy less than ideal past (before it was whitewashed by YIJ) a woman who is an alcoholic and in some drafts even a prostitute.

6. The execution of Sallah although it did not make the touch would be a very interesting addition as it would display the human cost of this game being played by representatives of the germans and the americans and the question that has to be asked is what is the point?, what did he die for when he left behind his family? Although it did not make it, it was a statement of intent.

7. Katanga is a very ambigious character and much like Indy we only like him because he is the underdog. He is clearly something less than legitimate, and his offer to sell Marion off on the street brings a dose of reality to what is really a film that almost goes into fantasy sometimes.

8. The fact that the Ark ends up not destroyed or lost but in the hands of these unresponsable and secretive men is a perfect Noir ending.

Raiders for me could almost be seen as Indy Noir but without trying too hard, throughout the series the trend slowly vanishes but there are several Noirish touches in ToD and LC:

- The whole Shanghai sequence sets out Indy as a rather shady operater doing deals with Gangsters against the International Treaty for the protection of antiquities; this does demonstrate that we can never really know what Indys moral values are....
- Does Indy want the Shankara stones for fortune and glory or for the villagers, i dont think he makes that choice until mid way in the movie.
- For all of their fantastical elements the Thuggees are part of the modern world in that they sell of diamonds.
Hmmm thats about it for Raiders there is definately no ambiguity in the Thuggees, and the colonial forces as heroes and and the representatives of modern india turning out to be evil cultists is against the spirit of Indy.

- Elsa as femme fatale
- Donovan as a weak human villain
- Indy being tempted by the grail

However the end of LC is wholly inconsistent with anything Noirish it is almost religious, a revelation of pure light through the shades of grey

Pale Horse

12-03-2003, 11:16 PM

Originally posted by bob

3. The contrast between Sallahs life and Indy life seems to demonstrate the hollowness of Indys lifes pursuit.

5. Marion is a very unconventional heroine in that she is not a damsel in distress but rather a strong independant woman who at the same time acts as an expose into Indy less than ideal past (before it was whitewashed by YIJ) a woman who is an alcoholic and in some drafts even a prostitute.

6. The execution of Sallah although it did not make the touch would be a very interesting addition as it would display the human cost of this game being played by representatives of the germans and the americans and the question that has to be asked is what is the point?, what did he die for when he left behind his family? Although it did not make it, it was a statement of intent.

7. Katanga is a very ambigious character and much like Indy we only like him because he is the underdog. He is clearly something less than legitimate, and his offer to sell Marion off on the street brings a dose of reality to what is really a film that almost goes into fantasy sometimes.

8. The fact that the Ark ends up not destroyed or lost but in the hands of these unresponsable and secretive men is a perfect Noir ending.

Raiders for me could almost be seen as Indy Noir but without trying too hard, throughout the series the trend slowly vanishes but there are several Noirish touches in ToD and LC:

- The whole Shanghai sequence sets out Indy as a rather shady operater doing deals with Gangsters against the International Treaty for the protection of antiquities; this does demonstrate that we can never really know what Indys moral values are....

(other themes to investigate {sic}

- Elsa as femme fatale
- Donovan as a weak human villain
- Indy being tempted by the grail

However the end of LC is wholly inconsistent with anything Noirish it is almost religious, a revelation of pure light through the shades of grey

A few things that I want to explore based on your astute observations:

#3) Are you implying that because Sallah is a family man, he ascribes to a more archetypal role of a hero than Indy does?

#5) Would you rather have Marion as a femme fatal as Elsa (almost) was.

#6) Sallh was executed (at some point)?! And I thought I wwas a fan. I wish I could get more info on this...because I think you are right, the visual, ot closely implied impact of an execution would play into the dark nature of noir as I am coming to understand it.

#7) You said it best. He truely is an ambiguous character that can best be described as an endearing scoundral. Ultimatley, it might be a good lesser character to bring back in IJ-IV. Subtle enough not to interfer, but enough of a character to play homage to those people who are necessary, but can never be trusted.

Maybe he can shuttle Indy from his prison in eastern Rusin to an island in the Pacific Rim, on his way to Guam. It would also ground the shady nature of Indy's reputation in the East as a shady character established in TOD.

#8) bookend...'nuff said. There are enough threads that I won't comment further.

superfulous, yet important considerations

Elsa: If we could get a similar American character for Indy in his wanning era, it would be great, especially if it can flirt with the Black Dahlia mystique.

Donovan: Self motivated capitalists can be readily created in the 50's

Temptation: Have to work on concepts for this one....

(forgive my spelling errors tonight)
------------------------------------------
How am I coming along as a student of noir?

[Edited by apalehorse on 12-03-2003 at 11:21 pm]

bob

12-05-2003, 01:41 PM

Originally posted by apalehorse

A few things that I want to explore based on your astute observations:

#3) Are you implying that because Sallah is a family man, he ascribes to a more archetypal role of a hero than Indy does?
[QUOTE]

At this point in Raiders it is very difficult to see what is worthwhile about Indys pursuits in life, i think this is brought to the head when Indy will not destroy the Ark as he is so dedicated to the pursuit of archaeological relics.

[QUOTE]
#6) Sallh was executed (at some point)?! And I thought I wwas a fan. I wish I could get more info on this...because I think you are right, the visual, ot closely implied impact of an execution would play into the dark nature of noir as I am coming to understand it.
[QUOTE]

The scene was filmed, and it is logical and realistic that this would occur and i think in a sense the film suffers for it particularly in the presentations of nazis as villains. I think that it would be a wonderful addition to the movie showing that darkness would have almost entirely over taken it for something that at this point is hardly worthwhile.

[QUOTE]
#7) You said it best. He truely is an ambiguous character that can best be described as an endearing scoundral. Ultimatley, it might be a good lesser character to bring back in IJ-IV. Subtle enough not to interfer, but enough of a character to play homage to those people who are necessary, but can never be trusted.

Maybe he can shuttle Indy from his prison in eastern Rusin to an island in the Pacific Rim, on his way to Guam. It would also ground the shady nature of Indy's reputation in the East as a shady character established in TOD.

#8) bookend...'nuff said. There are enough threads that I won't comment further.

superfulous, yet important considerations

Elsa: If we could get a similar American character for Indy in his wanning era, it would be great, especially if it can flirt with the Black Dahlia mystique.

Donovan: Self motivated capitalists can be readily created in the 50's

Temptation: Have to work on concepts for this one....

(forgive my spelling errors tonight)
------------------------------------------
How am I coming along as a student of noir?

[Edited by apalehorse on 12-03-2003 at 11:21 pm] [/B]

I think that with the period there is far more scope for Indy IV to become a very noirish film and Donovan esqe villains are 50's staple, and in a way far more creepy than the cartoon villains that the Nazis are. I dont think that we are just creating this out of nothing though remember Darabouts comment? about personal choice and political freedom - this sounds like a far more complex Indy film than ToD and LC.