gypsy's kiss

[hffan2000]

just wanted to send a shout out to monkey. i love the gypsy's kiss adventure and can't wait to see what happens next. keep up the good writting buddy :)

[Tennessee R]

Me Too!!!!!!
I love the detail you put into it.
Not enough people write heavy, lots of details, anymore, like Jules Verne.
Great story!

[monkey]

Thanks so much Hffan and Tennessee. Your kind words are very much appreciated, and are an inspiration.

[Finn]

That text is some quality reading. Maybe little too rich in description and turn of events to actually fit in a novel... but perfect for an adventure serial. Keep it up Monkey Man.

[Tennessee R]

Yes, it is "a little too rich in description and turn of events to actually fit in a... modern day novel, but that's exactly the way I like it.

Please try to end chapters with less suspense, or I might go wild. :D

[Katarn07]

Originally posted by Tennessee R
Please try to end chapters with less suspense, or I might go wild. :D

Yeah, when do you expect it to be done? I'll read it all through then. I stopped after the 'Rats' chapter because the suspense was killing me! :p

[monkey]

Well Matthias, if I told you that.......where would the suspense be????

No actually I think today chapter 38 posted, so at 3 chapters per week there is about 5 weeks left.

Thanks again for your great feedback!!

Jules Verne??? Have I been compared to one of my all time heroes, and one of the greatest writers ever????

Pinch me.

No actually you need to stick a pin in my head...to deflate it.

You made my day Tennessee!!!

Thanks.

And thanks Finn for your feedback. I very much appreciate it.

Hope you all like the rest of the story.

[Canyon]

I would just like to say that Monkey, as always, has done an exceptional job with Gypsy's Kiss, and it's an absolute joy to read.

Monkey, you rock! :D

Kind regards




Canyon

[Tennessee R]

You're welcome, Monkey, (Jules Verne is high on the list of favorites for me, too) but seriously, though, you can be compared to some of his works, and I think you need to begin on another book as soon as you get through with this one. (Not giving you a brake, am I? :D )

Great work.

[Finn]

There is something about Indy I like to point out that has bothered me in fact. Monkey, you seem to show Indy's knowledge about German language quite minor, as I have, after mingling with all kinds of other IJ fiction, learned that Indy does know quite a deal of German (I might be off the marker here, but I even recall McGregor stating out Indy being "nearly fluent").

But since there appears to be no official word in this, so in that case if your Indiana Jones does not know much of this language, it's really not a nuisance that big... if at all, knowing that different authors may handle the same character in quite a separate ways. So if your Indiana Jones does not know much of German, then he doesn't.

*Pulls out a dart and throws it towards Monkey man's head.*
Nice writing, amigo. Not quite professional level, but work of a very skilled amateur nevertheless.

[monkey]

Yeah, you're absolutely right about Indiana Jones' knowledge of German. I goofed there. Somebody else pointed that out to me earlier as well.

Whoops.

Oh well, even "Raiders" had that scene where you could see the cobra's relflection in the protective glass. If Spielberg can screw up a little bit, then so can I.

But it demonstrates one of the pitfalls of writing an Indy fiction work. The character is not 100% mine. There is a pre-existing BIO, and you've got to do your homework. In this case I didn't.

Well, I guess when George Lucas contacts me and offers me a seven figure contract to write three more Indiana Jones fictions over the next year.......I'll go back and correct that error in Gypsy's Kiss.

"Wake up Monkey!!! Wake up!!"






"What happened?"

"You fell asleep at your computer. Your nose was pressing down the space bar. You were having some kind of a ....dream."

[hffan2000]

Monkey,
i have a small question regarding a character in gypsy's kiss. is the john allenby featured in that story the same allenby featured in the film lawrence of arabia?

[monkey]

No, no connection there at all. Coincidence.

I have varied ways of coming up with some of the fictional names in my writing.

For this particular character I just wanted a kind of distinguished, very British sounding name.

If I'm not mistaken Allenby was the name of a famous British General in World War Two. Since I am very much a World War Two history buff, that name was kicking around in one of my brain cells somewhere.

[Finn]

I noticed something too I'd like to ask if it's an intentional easter egg, or just a close call.

The Nazi guard in the train. Could he be the same dope Captain Miller's unit meets in <i>Saving Private Ryan</i>? And even if he isn't, I'm pretty sure you at least picked "Betty Boop" from there.

You see, it's little things like that a person with knowledge of various fiction craves for.

[monkey]

Finn, you nailed that one!

Yes, I stole....er, borrowed that "Betty Boop" line right out of Private Ryan.

[Joe Brody]

Betty Boop -- nice gams . . . .

[It's Friday and I couldn't resist.]

Monkey,

I confess that I haven't kept up -- will a single/central file ever be made available? I really enjoyed the first few installments and just haven't had a chance to keep up.

[monkey]

...."nice gams"... I forgot that part of the line, shoot, now I've got to go back and edit that chapter.

Hey no problem Joe. I'm just glad you're interested in the story.

Actually I think it would probably read better if you get to pick it up and put it down when you want to, instead of the 3 chapters per week. So if you want, you can just wait until it's all done, which should be about a month from now, and then read it straight through.

It reads better on paper than a computer screen too. So if you work somewhere where you can clandestinely waste reams of paper after hours (like I used to do where I used to work {no, I wasn't fired}) you can print out a hard copy.

But seriously, thanks for your interest, thanks for everyone's interest in Gypsy's Kiss. I appreciate it.

It's been a labor of love. I wrote it for the Indy community. I disabused myself (is that something dirty?) long ago of the notion that George Lucas was going to publish my Indy novel(s). The hard reality is that if and when George Lucas wants to publish any more Indiana Jones fiction he will simply find an established writer, write him a check with a bunch of zeros on it, and tell him what to write.

Writing Gypsy's Kiss was a chance for me to experience a little adventure, and live my life vicariously through the exploits of the greatest Action Adventure Hero of all time.

I hope you guys do the same by reading it.

Thanks.

[Finn]

Monkey man, there is something I'd like you to answer, this time it's not directly associated to the story at hand, but writing in general... and you appear to be a type who might give an interesting answer.

It's about the response to feedback and "writer's ethics". It appears to be that if you ask for comments on your works for example in a place like this, I don't know if it's the general athmosphere or what, but they tend to be positive, even praising for most of the time. Now, what do you think an author should reply if there happens to be something inbetween that criticizes or says something negative (and I don't mean any "man you suck" -comments here, those are to be left alone in all cases) his or her works? I don't know if all the praising comments cause an author's head to "inflate" or what, but some of them tend to get really divaic about critique and tell the responser that it his or her works, and there is no critizising one's artistic decision.

Now, how does this go with you? Do you appreciate negative points of view... since they more likely tend to tell you how to pick up your skills in writing even more than positive feedback does. And what do you think an author should response in common if there happens to be any comments that are all the way civilized, but off the positive line of feedback?

[monkey]

Finn, to be honest I appreciate the negative feedback just as much as the positive, for exactly the reasons that you put forth.

First off, I don't have an ego. I'm not a 'tempermental artist', I am by nature a humble guy.

I don't think Gypsy's Kiss is great by any stretch. I don't think I'm a great writer. I don't even think I'm a writer at all, though I have some aspirations to be one.

However, I think Gypsy's Kiss is a pretty darned good little story by a non-writer, and it thrills me that some people enjoy reading it. Kind of like when I used to play in a garage band, and the other neighborhood kids would come around and listen, and tell us we sounded great. That's a nice feeling. Were we great? No, but we were good.

But I know that not only is Gypsy's Kiss not up to professional level, it has huge faults with mechanics, and scene shifts, and pace, and dialogue.....and I could go on and on.

I know all of that. That's why I would welcome any comments concerning its faults just as much as I appreciate the positive.

In fact, when it is completed I was planning to find some literature grad student somewhere, and pay him or her to read it through and red line it for me.

For me Gypsy's Kiss was an excersize in writing a novel. But I don't think I'll write another Indy novel. Indiana Jones is great, but he's not mine, and there is no future in Indy fiction. I have ideas of my own for novels with my own characters.

So don't worry, the Monkey's head is not going to swell from the positive comments, and he's not going to turn into a gorilla if there's negative feedback.

[Finn]

Originally posted by monkey
In fact, when it is completed I was planning to find some literature grad student somewhere, and pay him or her to read it through and red line it for me. Now, I've actually had a few courses of that... so if I can be of any assistance, I'm glad to help. Of course I'm far from a pro and you can probably dig out even better than me with little effort, but I can give you some preliminary feedback... and besides, I'm cheap (read: I'll do it for free, mate).

And if you ask for my credentials... just check out the last question by me and ask yourself if just a regular redneck would have asked something like that.

[monkey]

Finn, that would be great! I like your price too!!

Once I finally complete the story why don't we get together at The Raven and discuss the details. Drinks will be on me.

Thanks, and I would never confuse you with a redneck!!

(you don't have one of those pickups with four wheels in the back, and a shotgun rack, do you?)

Monkey

[Finn]

Sallah's wife. You named her "Emira"... but in Raiders of the Lost Ark, her name is mentioned aloud, and it's "Fayah". Of course, there is not much sources about Sallah's family, I'm pretty certain that you made the bits of his oldest daughter by yourself, and I'm okay with that. But the wife... unless of course the wife's full name is "Fayah Emira" or something.

It's in the part when Indy and Marion are about to board the Bantu Wind and Marion gives Sallah the kisses... she says:
"This is for Fayah, this is for your children... and this is for you."

Now, of course it doesn't say exactly who "Fayah" is, but it appears most logical that it's Sallah's wife... after all, it <i>is</i> a female name. (Unless one of Sallah's daughters helped them so much in particular it gave Marion a reason to name her individually).

Nothing more now... keep up the good work.

[Lord Excalibur]

I haven't read this. Man it probably is good, I begin to read it....now

[monkey]

Lord Ex,
Thanks for reading, I hope you enjoy.

Finn,
Yeah, that's another goof. Actually I thought that Sallah's wife already had an established name, but I couldn't for the life of me think of it, and I didn't have time to watch Raiders to try to look for it. I was going to put out an e-mail and ask, but I didn't. I probably should have. Anyway, that's an easy fix, she only appears in that one chapter.

Thanks Finn for your attention to detail.

[Indyologist]

:eek: :eek: :D

HOLY MOSES and let me say it again-- HOLY FREAKING MOSES! I just wanted to say that Monkey's novel is great, but the love scene between Indy and Vadoma in chapter 46 totally BLEW ME AWAY! Being an avid, unshamed Indy Drooler, I was fanning myself furiously here at work in front of my computer and wishing they had shower stalls in the bathroom! Dag! That is one horn-i-fy-ing chapter! I posted the juicy parts on the ladies' "Indy Fantasy" thread and I can't WAIT to see the reactions of my fellow Droolers. AAARRRRROOOOOOOO!!!

Thank you, Monkey! You've captured a truly great Indy fantasy...

[Canyon]

Arroooooo indeed!

Indyologist, check out my reply on that very same thread!

Great work as always, Monkey! :D

[Finn]

Hmm. Monkey Man, not bad. But as usual, the scene (like the whole chapter) can be reworked with just a few sentence and structure changes... and it will become even more better and juicier.

(But nope, I'm not going to go into detail now... I don't wanna drown, if you get what I mean, friend.)


And yeah, something more... the girl, she's going to die at the end, am I right?

[monkey]

My computer's been down for a couple of days, so when I opened this thread I was extremely happy!

First off, thanks so much for the compliments, I very very very much appreciate it. Frankly, I was a little bit worried about how that scene would be recieved.

I am delighted with your response!!

Hey Finn, I'm sure you don't seriously expect me to answer that question. It's a valid one though, and I'm glad you're wondering.

But you might just be surprised by this ending, which is coming up very soon. ; )

[Finn]

Yeah, I seriously didn't even expect for a writer to spoil his ending.

Anyway, let's hope it's really something I'm not able to guess... always the better. For the writer and the story.

[monkey]

A note to all who might be reading Gypsy's Kiss:

There is an error in the posting of chapter 47. Some of the end of the chapter got chopped off, with some important passages.

hopefully you can re-read it after it gets fixed.

Sorry.

[Finn]

Time to bring this back up again... there is one really bad anachronism in chapter 51 I need to note you about, Monkey man.

When Indy arrives to the Russian site, the fellow who greets him is having a Kalashnikov rifle... in <i>1938</i>, when Viktor Kalashnikov, probably the most famous weapon designer up to date, born 1919, was 19 and nothing but a rookie soldier in the training of the Red Army.

The world hadn't heard about any kind of Kalashnikov rifle before WW II was over. Everybody probably knows the famous AK-47, and that's exactly what that "47" means there, the designing year. Kalashnikov did actually model his first submachine gun while in infirmary in 1941, but that never gained wide use... of course, this is just extra info. I already told you the probably most worst goof up to date in this story.

<small>Of course, Raiders of the Lost Ark had a bazooka that was designed in 1942, but we can always presume that in Indiana Jones universe, some inventions were made ahead of their time, but in the case of Kalashnikov... that won't work.</small>

[monkey]

Hey Finn,
First of all, thanks for posting again. I actually thought that everybody had forgotten all about Gypsy's Kiss, or were bored with it and had stopped reading. And I knew that you, if anyone would spot this.

By the way, today Chapter 53.......THE FINAL CHAPTER is scheduled to post.

Believe it or not, I kind of suspected that it might be an error when I used the "Kalashnikov automatic rifle" reference but I was too lazy, or didn't have time at the time (can't remember which) to check it. I knew that the AK-47 was not yet in existence in 1938, but I wasn't really sure if there was a "Kalashnikov" company that was making some kind of 'automatic rifle' in 1938.

Why did I intentionally put something in there that I knew might be an error? Good question. Two reasons:

1. "Kalashnikov"....It sounds so damn Russian! Lends a bit more of a 'Russian' atmosphere to the scene.

2. I felt that even if it were an error, that it wouldn't really matter in an Indiana Jones story. I think in an IJ fiction you can get away with stuff like that. I will liken it to the "Flying Wing" Delta wing aircraft in "Raiders".........futuristic....experimental....but there's no way that really existed in 1936.

So I thought I could get away with it since I felt that it would add to the feel of the scene.

...........once again, caught, red handed.

But I want to thank you Finn for taking the interest, and time to post. And mostly, thanks for reading. I hope you and anyone else reading will enjoy the final chapter, and the ending.

[Finn]

Monkey, all I can say is that for myself, when dealing with Indiana Jones fiction, I can stand Indy mingling with WW II era weapons, even though they were not yet designed on the particular year the story takes place. It is when we're going to detail when my mind goes alarmed... for example, when you mentioned name "Kalashnikov", accurate historical facts immediately flooded to my mind associated to it. If you had just written "Russian assault rifle" (even though even that kind of weapon didn't exist before 1942 by German design), I would have let it slip through my mind, thanks to my earlier experiences about Indiana Jones fiction.

Oh well, even Rob MacGregor goofed badly once. In Indiana Jones and the Unicorn's Legacy, Indy is burying the horn with the old Indian who notes that there are forces of evil in the world worth being aware of... and Indy assumes the man speaks of Nazis. The year is 1928 and Hitler's rise in power happened 1933... and it really was a thing one was not able to tell five years before.


Anyway, I just read the last chapter of Gypsy's Kiss...very nice work. Really nice.

And my head is coming up with several little bits of advice and reworking it wants to give or suggest to you.

And I better start right away.
I don't know should I cheer victoriously or frown in disappointment, but: don't reveal the ending before the story is even halfway through.

[Canyon]

Hey Monkey!

Just finished reading the last chapter of Gypsy's kiss!

The whole serial just blew me away!

The last two chapters were awesome and had me on the edge of my seat. :D

[monkey]

Thanks Canyon, I appreciate that a lot.

Finn, I'm very curious about your last statement concerning revealing the ending halfway through? What did you mean by that?

[Finn]

You fell into committing one general cliché that, I admit, may just pass through an everyday readers' mind unnoticed, but one that has read a lot and knows something about story structuring will go like "oh no, not <i>this</i> again..." and once that is written into the story, there is just one way it could possibly end between the protagonist and his love interest.

What it is, I'm letting you to figure out by yourself a little longer.

Then there's more... of course, majority of the fans of your story will now jump out of bushes and ask me how can I ever mock such a beatiful and well-written story like that, but it had a few structural bits that bugged me. Don't worry (anyone of you), I'm not going to tear Monkey man off that great shrine of the Indy fiction writers he had obviously just rised in your mind by trashing <i>Gypsy's Kiss</i> completely, because I liked the general idea in the story and the plot itself, I really did... but there's always something.

Gypsy's Kiss had a few problems with pacing. Every really good story has its beginning, middle and ending in close balance, something GK unfortunately had not. The beginning dragged (and was too long to serve the balance), the middle part was too shattered with some issues getting too much highlight and some brushed past even little too quickly (of course, this will most often be the case when one is writing a serial with every chapter ending to a cliffhanger, though there is a better way to work the structure and still come up with decent chapter endings that make the reader to crave for more), and the ending... it really didn't slowly rise and build up to the climax, it just suddenly kicked in and was over just as fast, this got it to lack majority of this so-called extra tension it could have received.

Then there is the issue about characters and the way they were pictured. To pace through the story, there must be lesser and more important characters, and the writing style should make it clearly out. GK however... well, to give you a concrete example is the Nazi major in the end. The final chapter was written in a way that gives you an impression possibly making you to think he was the main villain of the story... <i>but he had actually made his first appearance barely one chapter earlier</i>. I think I don't have to tell you the things that are for granted to make you figure out what is wrong in this picture. There are more similar things with characters, but more about them if Monkey man wishes for a more detailed report.

And it gets us to the another... the point of view the story used. For 90% of the story, the teller's eyes were locked on Indiana Jones. They only jumped to describe the things about some other character's POV only when it appeared you need to give a thrill impression or tell the readers something crucial that would seemingly appear more logical if they were told that way; which is actually a sign of a writer who still needs to hone his/her skills. Especially chapter eight was this kind of odd bird. It just suddenly jumped out of context, because there was no more secquences like that. And by this I don't mean that the writer should have told us more about the kid in question, but e.g. take us off Indy and describe what Marcus or the Nazis were doing in the meantime.

The writing style is good, dialogue flows smoothly with no artificial "cheap takes" to move them from subject to another, all in all good. It's the story flow that prevents GK from being a masterpiece. Too many odd things here and there.

<small>And please, do not try to play knight in a shiny armor and tell me I'm taking it too rough on an amateur writer, I'm well aware of that. But when the context itself goes out for being something like this (every chapter got an announcement on the main page, all the praising comments)... the critique has to be the same caliber, right? Keeps the world in balance.</small>

[monkey]

Great critique Finn!! I have no problem at all with it. In fact I am very grateful for it, it helps me immensely.

As I said before, it's no masterpiece, just a decent Indy fan fiction. Something for an IJ fan who might have read all the books, and wants a new one to read. And it was an excersize in writing a novel for me.

[Joe Brody]

Monkey,

I look forward to reading the whole work soon. Do you have any other projects in the hopper?

[Indyologist]

Wow, GK was really a wonderful novel. I gotta say, though, that ending with Indy watching Vadoma being incinerated was a real downer. I don't care what anyone says. I hope Indy's married in Indy IV. Geez, I think the guy's MORE than entitled to someone who will love him and actually still be ALIVE when it's all said and done. Poor Indy. :(

Still, excellently done and fine writing! I was hanging on every word.

[monkey]

Thanks Indyologist. Sorry about that rather graphic ending. I hope it didn't throw you, or any of the readers too much. If so I apologize. It wasn't meant to be brutal or disturbing in anyway. In fact it was meant to be rather the opposite of those things.

I think I was trying to make some kind of a point about the transitory and impermanent nature of life; of the flesh, versus the immortal and eternal nature of the human spirit.

[Finn]

And there you said the cliché you fell in.

Actually, there are two of them. The first is a general assumption, and you made it even more clearer by giving us an opposite reflection. In the beginning, you showed us Indiana Jones with one of his girlfriends around the world, and gave us the expression that Jones was just looking for some fun, not being serious with her.

As with Vadoma, you might have as well bolded, underlined and written in it italics and couldn't have made it any more clearer that Indy's found the girl of his life... biiig mistake. Since as we all know, Indiana Jones is a very classic archtype of a hero and we will never ever see him ending up with together in the very final way. (At least not in that point of his life, though I would not be surprised if he actually had someone in Indy IV.)

And the second one, which you just also gave away, you obviously thought that it was an unique way to end the story. Nearly every writer who kills off the girl in the end thinks they have created something revolutionary, while in the reality, that truly is out of this handbook called "Cheesy Endings for Dummies", if you get what I mean. Of course, the reason for this everybody thinks that killing the love interest in the end may be a result of watching too many Bond films since in the end of those, 007 always gets the girl.

Okay, now one may wonder if the girl living in the end is a cliché and the girl dying at the end is a cliché, then what is not?
To be honest, none of them are clichés if the story is built in the way reader doesn't get any hints about how it might be... something in what you Monkey man failed miserably.

You slightly took your readers as simpletons in other cases too, by the way. You tend to underline the current emphasis in a scene overly too much to make clearly out that now they're excited, now the athmosphere is threatening, now they're relaxing, etcetera. While this, of course can bring a writer to the core sources of using good metaphors, it's also an insult towards the reader's intelligence.

But as I said, good work. You'll have to work out keeping the plot flowing more smoothly and get rid of writing so much out-of-place scenes, but as usual, the journey around the world starts with taking the first step. And more steps you take, more determined and secure your gait will become.

[monkey]

But how do you really feel Finn?

Thanks? .........I guess, for this critique.

I see what you're saying Finn, but.........ouch!

One thing though, I never meant to insult the readers' intelligence. I may have done so inadvertantly, I apologize.

Cheesy endings for dummies??? Hmmmm, I disagree there. I kind of liked my ending. And I don't think I foretold it in the story anywhere. I think there were lots of alternative endings that could have happened. But that's just me. Others may agree with you.

But it is interesting that you bring up that earlier girlfriend in South America. She was a brief, but very important character for me. She helped to define MY concept of Indiana Jones. I have always thought the playboy aspect of Jones' character has been too much understated. He IS a playboy, and has girlfriends all over the world, but as he is getting older, he is somewhat troubled by that fact.

As for the main female character, Vadoma, being the girl of his dreams, she wasn't supposed to come across that way. I must have botched that because I wanted Jones to be attracted to her for two reasons, one, she was HOT to look at, and two, she was intriguing, interesting, and a woman in trouble.

In my concept of Indiana Jones he is a playboy, but a chivalrous playboy. (Kind of like me)

Actually I wanted Jones to fall in love with Vadoma gradually, but not necessarily fall any more in love with her than with Lupe down in South America, or any of his other many girlfriends.

You are a very astute and knowledgeable reader Finn. I want to thank you for your extremely helpful critiques. Despite my "ouch" I still appreciate it.

[Finn]

If you didn't foretell it anywhere, then how was I able to be so damn sure about it? ;) (Think about that.)

And another thing about the ending... killing Vadoma off was the only way to end the story, so in that case you did a good job. There was no other solutions to bring this story to a sensible end. Actually, if we look at things that led to the ending, I'd say that even Elsa had a bigger chance to see LC's credits than Vadoma living past "The End" in GK.

And you didn't really have to tell me that you weren't supposed to insult the reader's intelligence, no writer does that consciously (except in some cases of satire and parody), so no hard feelings about that.

And for cheesiness & stuff in some scenes, I guess they were supposed to be there. This was a classic adventure serial and it actually helped to create the athmosphere more closer to that, cliffhangers an'all. This is the stuff in thin cheap paperback bookies people buy from paper stands.

But if you dream about writing an actual novel, Monkey man... I'll tell you one thing.

If I ever, ever order a hardback copy off eBay with $39.90 and it's written like this one, I'm marching right up to the writer and tell him I've been robbed.

<small>You know, I've been here talking big words and I have absolutely no proof that my skill in writing is any higher than our fabulous serial author's here... Hmm, p'haps I should try writing my own story?</small>

[monkey]

If anybody ever charged you $39 for GK, then I myself would be a witness to the crime.

I think I pretty much get everything you're saying Finn. And you're right about the 'cheese'. A lot of the cheese was intentional. I tried to give it a 1930's Adventure Serial feel, and that recipe often calls for some gouda and gorganzolla.

I have a few ideas for other novels (NOT IJ). These, if written, will be done in a totally different style that hopefully will be worth.............well, maybe 39 cents, if not 39 dollars.

By the way, you hint at the possibility of maybe writing an IJ fiction???

That would be great! Interested in a collaborator?

[Canyon]

Finn, your posts on this topic are interesting to read, but I can't help think but feel that you're being a little bit harsh about Monkey's story.

Okay, I'll be honest with you. I kinda guessed what happens to Vadoma many chapters before I read it, but apart from that, I feel that was the only cliché as far as I could see. And as for pacing, I certainly didn't think that there was a problem.

And as for insulting the readers intelligence, I certainly don't think that Monkey was doing that subconsciously or consciously.

I'm honestly not trying to be a pain, and you are certainly entitiled to your opinion, but I just felt that you were a little bit overcritical.

No hard feelings I hope. ;)

[Finn]

Canyon - As I've said here I liked GK very much, and I admitted that in the frames it was published, it was more than fitting piece... and if I didn't get it completely wrong, Monkey got my meaning here too. It's a great piece of amateur fiction... and if you read the topic from very beginning you notice that Monkey man here actually thought about letting someone re-read it and tell him what prevents it from being "professional" fiction. And this is the job I'm doing here, using those skills I've learnt about storywriting to tell him my views about what should be honed in GK to make it look even better than what it is now. And even now, it's one great piece. My apologies, if I didn't make this clear enough.

Monkey - To be honest, there has been this certain plot idea that had span around my mind for some time now... one that I, when I say it rather honestly, think that it would have some potential if even turned to from simple thoughts to a written form.

But usually the things are the biggest obstacles on my way when writing a story is that I can think of a great storyline and the major events from the beginning to the end and the themes the story is going to deal with, but when it comes to close-to-earth events you're supposed to handle and enlighten the story with, it all, if does not start to collapse, but at least slows down the process pretty good deal.

And this is, I admit, the thing that could make one interested about a partner in crime, even though that means the credit has to be shared (with what I personally have no problem with). It's just that finding a good collaborator can be a pain. Many have enthusiasm, but lack greatly in the fields that closer to the process of writing itself. But if I get this ball (or should we say boulder?) rolling, I could actually give it a shot in the form of team work, since the fellow offering his helping hand has some helluva credentials, with 53 chapters.

[monkey]

Any time my friend, I would be delighted to work with you to get that boulder rolling.

[Finn]

Hmm... sure thing, why not? I'd be rather interested to see too if we could work out anything even as remotely good as GK.

Drop me a PM (or email or whatever) about what you need to know to let the boulder roll and we'll talk.

[Indyologist]

Originally posted by monkey
Thanks Indyologist. Sorry about that rather graphic ending. I hope it didn't throw you, or any of the readers too much. If so I apologize. It wasn't meant to be brutal or disturbing in anyway. In fact it was meant to be rather the opposite of those things.

I think I was trying to make some kind of a point about the transitory and impermanent nature of life; of the flesh, versus the immortal and eternal nature of the human spirit.

That's no problem, Monkey. You did a great job. I figured that Vadoma would die-- it was the only cure for her deadly "kiss." It was a mite graphic and more than a little sad. I think I would have had Indy just bury her in some kind of gypsy tradition, if they DO bury their dead and don't creamate them. I'm a writer too, so I appreciate your symbolism regarding the human spirit. Maybe, as I said earlier, you could have done some research into gypsy traditions/rituals involving death/funeral rites. That would have been interesting.

Still, great job!

[monkey]

Thanks again Indyologist,
Your comments and suggestions are very nice, and very helpful.

One of the things that GK suffered from was my inability to put as much time as I should have into research. But that was a function of two things.

First of all, I was working full time the whole time writing it. Sometimes, as you probably well know, it is tough to squeeze writing time into your daily schedule.

Secondly, I foolishly compounded the first problem by my own impatience and overenthusiasm. I got so darned excited about writing it and putting it out there that I sent it in to the site before it was even half finished. I'll never, EVER, do that again. Because then I was faced with a deadline to get the chapters out. What I haven't divulged until now is that there were times when I was only two or three chapters ahead of the posted chapter. That was kind of stressful, and led to me taking some shortcuts.

Lesson learned: Don't post anything until it's DONE!!

But just to comment on the cremation scene again for a moment, another aspect of that was that the followers of Pharaoh Akhenaton's religion of the Aten (which was one of the main archaeological themes of the story) rejected the funerary practices of the Amun priests, and believed that cremation was the only true way to release a person's Ka; their spirit. I think I was trying to somehow incorporate that into the scene.

(...........I say 'think' because half the time I didn't even really know what the hell I was thinking.)

Thanks again Indyologist for your nice comments. I very much appreciate it.

[Indyologist]

Some interesting information on Gypsys I found:

http://www.vurdon.it/english.htm#customs%20and%20traditions

[monkey]

Fascinating web page Indyologist.

The Gypsies and their history are truly very unique and interesting.

[Indyologist]

Originally posted by monkey
Fascinating web page Indyologist.

The Gypsies and their history are truly very unique and interesting.

I know this is OT, but I'm Hungarian so probably some of my ancestors were gypsies.

[Finn]

Indyologist... how well you know the origins of Hungarians?

Honestly, I'm not fooling you here, but if you have Hungarian blood, you're probably more closely related to Finns than the gypsies. Wanna know more?

[Indyologist]

Originally posted by Finn
Indyologist... how well you know the origins of Hungarians?

Honestly, I'm not fooling you here, but if you have Hungarian blood, you're probably more closely related to Finns than the gypsies. Wanna know more?


Sure, you can tell me more, Finn. If you want to PM me so we don't get OT, that's fine.

Well, I've got a Hungarian double-whammy on my dad's side. Both his mom and dad were Hungarian (Feher). I've been told by people that I look kind of Slavic. My brother has narrow eyes like the Slavs do. I have the dark hair and eyes, and I tan pretty easily.

My mom's dad was Irish (Sheridan) and her mom was Polish (Grabowski). My aunt visited my relatives in Hungary in 1950 or so. They were farmers, pretty much. I guess Hungarian gypsies are probably a stereotype. I wonder though, because I had an old, old aunt (my dad's sister-in-law) who could predict the future of her loved ones down to a "T." If that doesn't sound like gypsy stuff, then I don't know what is!

[Finn]

Well, this is a lengthy explanation, but I guess a little history lesson hurts no one, since this is actually civilizing, and could be counted under "topic progression".

About the origins of the Hungarians, the only thing known with certainty is that they are related to the Finns, and their language belongs to the so-called Fenno-Ugrian language family, together with that of the Vogul and Ostyak peoples of the northern Urals and the Fenno-Baltic people living around the Eastern parts of the Baltic Sea. With the distant Finns as their only cousins, the Hungarians have no linguistic ties with their neighbours.

When it comes to actual blood relation, about 50% of their original genes the Hungarians are being the same stuff with Finns. It is assumed that somewhere deep East, there where the river Volga flows lived a bunch of people speaking language that would form itself into both Finnish and Hungarian. They started to head west, in some point separating so that the part of them went more northwards while the rest of them bent their route south. Respectively, they ended up on those quarters where you nowadays can find Finland and Hungary on the map. The genes of both people have heavily mixed though. As I said, they share 50% of the same blood relation. With the Hungarians, the other half comes mostly from the people living in Slavic areas and Balkan, while those of the core people who headed north eventually mixed up with the Scandinavian and Western European blood - and thus became Finns. Story told.

So, to simplify a bit:
Ugrian ancestors
I I
I I
headed: south north
I I
I I
mixed blood: Slavics Scandinavians
I I
I I
to become: Hungarians Finns


So as proven here, the Hungarians and the Finns share de facto more blood relation than the Hungarians and the gypsies. Actually the amount of gypsy blood is not that great with Hungarians at all since as we know, they originated from near India and didn't actually arrive Europe before the "Ugrian people from East" (still haven't figured out a better callname for them) had gained some genes from the Slavics to establish the base Hungarian gene pool.

And of course, when I talk about "moving west", don't think about a bunch of people packing up their things and possibly taking a month or two to find a new place to dwell, it took centuries, maybe millennias. Actually, the Hungarians most likely first set their dwellings near the south end of the Ural mountains, where they were driven away by the ancestors of the Russians estimately sometime in the early Christian era.

Of course, there are other theories about the origin of the Hungarian people, but I told you the most commonly supported one. None of these different theories, however, deny the blood bond shared by the Hungarians and the Finns.

Interesting, huh?

[monkey]

"I have the dark hair and eyes, and I tan pretty easily."

GRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!

Sounds like you're my kind of girl Indyologist!!

Hey Finn,
Very interesting history lesson, and it's definitely not OT. Very much topic progression. I found it to be fascinating. I had actually heard some vague details of the connection of the Finns and their language with that of some of the Eastern European peoples, but nothing specific like you talk about. I know that the Finnish language is quite different from the other Scandinavian languages.

[monkey]

Originally posted by Indyologist
I have the dark hair and eyes, and I tan pretty easily.

The previous post was supposed to be a "quote", but something messes up every time I try to do a quote.

Sorry

[Canyon]

Originally posted by monkey
"I have the dark hair and eyes, and I tan pretty easily."

GRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!

Sounds like you're my kind of girl Indyologist!!

Hey, Monkey!

I've got dark hair and dark eyes too! ;)

[monkey]

.............Canyon, not only do you have pretty dark eyes and lovely, wavy dark hair, but you also have a beautiful complexion to match.

You and Indyologist are both my kind of girls!!!...........................

(Monkey slips into a naughty daydream......) ; )

[Finn]

Originally posted by monkey
Hey Finn,
Very interesting history lesson, and it's definitely not OT. Very much topic progression. I found it to be fascinating. I had actually heard some vague details of the connection of the Finns and their language with that of some of the Eastern European peoples, but nothing specific like you talk about. I know that the Finnish language is quite different from the other Scandinavian languages. To expand the lesson a bit, let's talk a little longer about the origins of the Finnish language. First of all, Finnish is actually not a Scandinavian language. Swedish, Danish, Norwegian and Icelandic are. Finnish is a Fenno-Baltic language, bonding the closest relation to Estonian. And when you spoke about Finnish bearing relation to some eastern European languages... well, the only one is Hungarian. Rest of the languages behind the former Iron curtain are almost all members of the Slavic language group.

The bit up there with the Hungarians pretty much clears out the birthstory of Finnish language, but only the spoken part of it. As we know, there are usually two aspects, spoken and written language. This may sound odd, but the origins of spoken and written Finnish are different stories of their own. For a language that is still very much alive, Finnish bears an odd detail tied to it; it did not have a written form before the 15th century. And it did not just become to use, it was actually "invented" by one man (Mikael Agricola, a renowned scholar, plus the Bishop of Finland of his time). So written Finnish is de facto an artificial addition to the language. And what makes it even more odd is not that as one might think, it was not formed after languages with most cultural impact on the Finns, make that Swedish or Russian. Written Finnish was based on <I>Latin</i>. The spelling is exactly the same.

Explains why the Finns don't vocal their letters (and thus why it's a language so damn hard to learn) the same way than the rest of the Western world, doesn't it?

[Canyon]

Originally posted by monkey
.............Canyon, not only do you have pretty dark eyes and lovely, wavy dark hair, but you also have a beautiful complexion to match.

You and Indyologist are both my kind of girls!!!...........................

(Monkey slips into a naughty daydream......) ; )


Awww, Monkey, you old smoothie you! ;)

You are a sweetie!

[Indyologist]

Originally posted by Finn
Well, this is a lengthy explanation, but I guess a little history lesson hurts no one, since this is actually civilizing, and could be counted under "topic progression".....

(Didn't want to re-quote the whole thing)

Of course, there are other theories about the origin of the Hungarian people, but I told you the most commonly supported one. None of these different theories, however, deny the blood bond shared by the Hungarians and the Finns.

Interesting, huh?

That was very interesting indeed, Finn! So I may be related to Finnish people, huh? Curious thought. You seem to be pretty up on your history. Maybe I'll print this out for reference. I'm interested in family history. This is turning out to be an interesting thread!

Quoted by Monkey: "I have the dark hair and eyes, and I tan pretty easily."

GRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!

Sounds like you're my kind of girl Indyologist!!

Gee, I've never gotten a compliment from a monkey before... what a sweet thing to say! I'm tan right now, although I'm peeling a bit. Ewwwww!

[Finn]

Originally posted by Indyologist
That was very interesting indeed, Finn! So I may be related to Finnish people, huh? If we go few thousand years back. But that's not exactly the way I'd put it, because after all, if we go back far enough, every people on this rock are related to each other (no matter if your take is the Good Book or Darwin - this is still a fact)...

But let's say that you very probably carry a great amount of same genes than the Finns do.

[Indyologist]

Originally posted by Finn
If we go few thousand years back. But that's not exactly the way I'd put it, because after all, if we go back far enough, every people on this rock are related to each other (no matter if your take is the Good Book or Darwin - this is still a fact)...

But let's say that you very probably carry a great amount of same genes than the Finns do.

To quote Indy in F of A: "Wow-- how awe-inspiring!"

Yes, I agree that deep down we all came from the same original family. I personally agree with what the Bible says, in spite of some of the naughty stuff I post here at Raven. It's too bad that even though we're all fundamentally related at our deepest mitochondrial roots, that we can't get along with other each.

[Tennessee R]

Just for the record, I just finished Gypsy's Kiss. It was real good.
Also, on the Indiana Quote Game, I quoted it, so check it out.

Good work, Monkey.

[monkey]

Thanks TR.

[Lord Excalibur]

It was amazing. Monkey, write another one. Lucas Books should really give you copyright to start new Indy books!

[Johan]

you should get it in print

[Finn]

The rule of Internet fan fiction:
Write anything lengthy enough (more than fifteen A4 pages), use rather good grammar and people will find you god. Applies in this case too.

If GK was ever published between covers as it is now, I wouldn't pay a dime for it. If you plead for an explanation, see few pages up.

GK was an excellent fanfic, but far from being actual novel material.

[monkey]

You know Finn, I'm a little tired of your insults to tell you the truth. I've been rather tolerant of them through out this thread and have bit my tongue, but not anymore.

That last post was uncalled for and insulting.

I know it's not the greatest work of fiction ever. I never claimed it to be, I never promoted it, I just wrote it and put it out there. People read it and some of them liked it.

When people wish to compliment me, why do you feel compelled to jump in and insult it.

I'm glad you think it sucks! You've made your point! You don't need to keep repeating it.

Later.

[monkey]

Lord Ex and IJ, thank you very much for your nice comments. I'm sorry for that last post but I had to get it off my chest.

If you want to know why I'm tired of his insults just read back in this thread.

I'm glad you liked Gypsy's Kiss. Some people wouldn't pay a dime for it, but some liked it. I'm glad you guys liked it.

thanks again,

[Aussie Jones]

Just read gypsy's kiss and thought it was fab. It's great how some people post their stories for free.

[Canyon]

I make no apologies for this post.

Finn, I've really had enough of your attitude. No sooner are you a moderator again, it seems that you feel that you have some god given right to keep coming out with really sarcastic comments.

I too, have gotten fed up of your critizism of Monkey's story.

I have held back for too long because you are a moderator, but now I feel that enough is enough. I also feel that your last comment was insulting and I think Monkey deserves better than that. He is not only a great writer, but a wonderful person as well.

Finn, I really hope you're proud of yourself in upsetting one of my closest online friends. :(


Monkey, I was absolutely stunned by your latest story. You posssess a gift which so few have. I can read your stories, and I can picture everything in my head in perfect detail, even Indy himself.

I am not just saying this, but I consider you to be one of the greatest writers of Indy fan fiction, and indeed fan fiction that I have ever come across, and I'm not just saying this because of that very nice e-mail that you sent me. I also consider you to be up there with Max McCoy in the writing stakes (I hope you'll consider this a compliment as I consider McCoy's Indy books to be the best Indy stories that I have EVER read!) :)

You're the best, Monkey! :D

[Finn]

Ouch. I'm sorry, Monkey man. I didn't mean to trash GK... I liked it, really (and now I'm ashamed for letting people understand I hated it). It was a great piece, I'm certain you gave it lot of time and devotion (and I sincerely admire that), I was just trying to comment those opinions who say it should be printed... because I can clearly see it's not <i>that</i> far yet (though most of the problems standing on the way are structural, in fact). Most of the people on this are way skilless writers than what you are.

And I guess one of the things that ticks me off is that half of the "feedback" given in the Internet is overly positive (while it should be just "positive") out of sheer politeness. I'm just trying to tell what I think (but obviously failed in that this time, badly).

I'll bend over now so you can kick me.

[Gilles V]

Here's a question for everyone:

If you created something like a painting or a story, would you prefer that people only say that it's "brilliant", "trash", "the best they have ever seen", etc.
or that people say "I don't get this bit", "that could be better", "it's great BUT..."?

[Finn]

Gil-man, now it's official. You just became my idol.

[Gilles V]

Not fully Finn. Your intentions were certainly good. But maybe you went a bit blunt in the end?

[Finn]

Perhaps so, I admit (and apologize once more). But my irritation, I guess, arises from people who say "OMG! This is uber-fabulous!" simply because they can't write a squat or have the patience to do such thing...

[Gilles V]

Sometimes it's better to keep such things to yourself.

[Finn]

Maybe so. But we're all too human.

Now get back on topic.

[Aussie Jones]

I don't think anyone likes criticism. I think Gypsy's Kiss is worthy of publishing.

[monkey]

I'm sorry Finn that I had to say what I said, because I consider you a friend (and I would never think of kicking you).

I understand constructive criticism, but stating bluntly that you don't think it's worth ten cents, well, that really hurt, especially when it is something that I spent quite a lot of time and effort on.

Earlier in this thread when you were being rather blunt with your criticism, I tried to do what my Mom taught me many years ago. She taught me that when people hurt your feelings or insult you, instead of turning on them with anger, you instead try to kill them with kindness.

Well, that didn't seem to work, so I had to state my feelings.

OK, that's done, now let's move on.

No hard feelings.

[Johan]

the reason why I think it should be in print (no nessessarily professionally) is because it is a lot easier for some people to read lengthy texts on paper than on a screen. I don't nessessarily want to use all the ink in my own printer either.

[Chattar Lal]

..

[Finn]

Sure thing... but you better learn some Finnish first. And as being overly critical... not really. Just on my usual level, since I read a lot.

<small>As for those other 'love it'-comments go ...of course it's the best thing you've ever read if it's the <i>only</i> thing you've ever read. :p (You get the idea.)</small>

[Chattar Lal]

I can't speak Finnish but I like your music. Such as Sibelius: 7 symphonies...

[IndyGirl821]

I think Monkey is the best writer at The Raven.

[ElodieJones]

Congratulations for this great adventure!!!

I have end to read it yesterday!

And I think that, it's really in the spirit of Indiana Jones.
Like the movies.

I love this story !!!

[INDYfatigable]

Great story Monkey! But, dude, what's with the end?

[Webley]

I think Monkey is the best writer at The Raven.Your damn right Iv got 2 words for gypsy's kiss publish! publish! publish! publish!