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Indyologist
06-09-2004, 08:14 AM
First I want to say, IT'S GREAT TO BE BACK! I hope you've all had wonderful things happen in your lives while the Raven was closed. But now, the door is open again (it squeaks terribly, doesn't it? I'll have to let Marion know...), I have my drink in my hand, and my gun is nestled cosily in my handbag, not far from my reach should any Sherpas and their funny potholder-looking hats attempt to get cheeky.

Anyhoo, I'd like your comments. At the end of the classroom scene in Raiders, a perturbed looking student stalks past Indy and smacks an apple by his desk. Can you taste the sarcasm there, folks? Why do you think he did that? I'll tell my theory after you all tell me yours. I want to see how close I am in theory.

Thoughts? Explanations?

Indy_Jones88
06-09-2004, 08:18 AM
I think the kid wanted an A for the trimester. He was a slacker most of the year and wanted a quick A by sucking up at the end of the trimester. (Sounds vaguely familiar.) lol

Finn
06-09-2004, 08:32 AM
Apple for teacher - classic move, almost a cliché. Put in there simply to add the classroom athmosphere. Besides, it was a nice gag that not Indy, but Marcus eats it.

LASTCRUSADER
06-09-2004, 08:45 AM
I have to wonder if it may have something to do with the fact that all the girls in the class seem to have a crush on Indy. Maybe this guy felt he needed to suck up a little in order to get noticed. Especially with all the ladies in class trying to get Indy's attention. The guy doesn't seem to happy when he storms out of the class.

Marcus Petrius
06-09-2004, 08:45 AM
It also characterises they guy who gives Jones the apple as the teachers pet. Just consider the way he looks and the fact that he's one of the few guys in there.
My opinion at least.

Mike

Joe Brody
06-09-2004, 08:57 AM
Originally posted by Marcus Petrius
It also characterises they guy who gives Jones the apple as the teachers pet. Just consider the way he looks and the fact that he's one of the few guys in there.
My opinion at least.

Mike


I'd go along with Mike on this one. I think the student felt like a bit of a dork giving the apple -- but for whatever reason, the student felt compelled to go foward and give the apple anyway, presumably either to curry favor or to show respect to a great teacher.

The 'apple' issue was discussed recently but for whatever reason I couldn't find it using the 'search' function (am I the only one having problems using the search function?). I think the cliche notion of giving an apple to a teacher is linked mostly with the younger gradeschool environment and not college. I take the apple as just another instance of the writer/director trying to demonstrate Professor Jones' popularity.

I too like the fact that Marcus pockets the apple and what it infers.

Finn
06-09-2004, 09:02 AM
Originally posted by Joe Brody
(Am I the only one having problems using the search function?)Sam's memory was wiped. He doesn't recall a thing from posts that were created before the update.

But as said, I don't see much allegories in the apple. I simply tend to think that it was just another way to imply that we're in school now, not jungle anymore.

Joe Brody
06-09-2004, 09:24 AM
I'm most likely reading too much into it -- but I think Marcus casually inspecting the apple and then pocketing it has significance on three levels: (i) first it infers that Marcus may be a bit of a scoundrel himself (as dicussed several months ago), (ii) second, it infers an old, close relationship between Marcus and Jones, and (iii) third, as a control issue -- it enforces Marcus as being 'senior' to Indy -- he takes Indy's apple.

There's a lot of give and take between Indy and Marcus in the classroom scene: Indy giving Marcus the small artifacts, plans for dinner and Indy's honorarium, and the negotiation for the money for the flight to Marrakesh (sp?). This back-and-forth continues in the Musgrove/Eaton meeting (they finish each others sentences) and in Indy's house: Indy opening the door, giving Marcus the drink, Marcus updating on the negotiation that he had with the government on behalf of the Museum and Indy and Marcus giving Indy advice. All this back-and-forth quickly and effectively establishes the relationship. The audience is being served up with a lot of information in these two scenes and that information is served up in a very digestable manner because of these details. It is this sort of non-verbal exposition that makes Raiders a superior film.

Finn
06-09-2004, 09:48 AM
...or then they're just very good friends, implying that Marcus knows Indy so well that he is able to predict that Indy really doesn't mind.

<small>And that could imply to the fact Indy receives apples (and cherries) all the time.</small> :p

And yeah, you did spell Marrakesh right, by the way.

Katarn07
06-09-2004, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by LASTCRUSADER
I have to wonder if it may have something to do with the fact that all the girls in the class seem to have a crush on Indy. Maybe this guy felt he needed to suck up a little in order to get noticed. Especially with all the ladies in class trying to get Indy's attention. The guy doesn't seem to happy when he storms out of the class.

That's what I always figured. Or he does hope to improve his grade. Or he is just a dork. A really big dork. :p

I like the stuff you guys pointed out about Marcus and Indy's relationship. It's funny how you can take what seems like such an insignificant scene and analyze it that much. Provides new takes on the films that are always fun to read ;)

Pale Horse
06-09-2004, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by Indyologist
Anyhoo, I'd like your comments. At the end of the classroom scene in Raiders, a perturbed looking student stalks past Indy and smacks an apple by his desk. Can you taste the sarcasm there, folks? Why do you think he did that? I'll tell my theory after you all tell me yours. I want to see how close I am in theory.

Thoughts? Explanations?

COME ON! Every indy-ologist should know this one:

It's was very deep and subtle forshadowing for IJ-IV. The student in RotLA was actually working on a dig in present day Turkey with Abner Ravenwoods first wife.

Apparently the Garden of Eden has recently been found, and while under utter secrecy, this student was able to not only penetrate the dig, but was able to steal the forbidden fruit (resulting in Brody's demise, that will shown in the fourth film.)

eeesh :rolleyes:

:p

Katarn07
06-09-2004, 10:36 AM
I was gonna comment on how neat it'd be if that student had a part in the Indy fiction out there.

I mean when it comes to SW, a guy that has screen time for 2 seconds has a name, biography, and appears in several published works. Why isn't the same for Indy?

Marcus Petrius
06-09-2004, 11:17 AM
Because we're not as obsessed as SW fans. I hope.

Mike

Finn
06-09-2004, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by Matthias1138
I like the stuff you guys pointed out about Marcus and Indy's relationship. It's funny how you can take what seems like such an insignificant scene and analyze it that much. Provides new takes on the films that are always fun to read ;) I wasn't, as you can see. I was actually trying to slow down these über-speculants. Somehow I find it a little unbelieveable that Spielberg had THIS much in mind when shooting the scene. ;)

Joe Brody
06-09-2004, 02:00 PM
Go easy Finn, I was hardly making grandoise assumptions that rise to the level of "über-speculation" (although, "über-speculant" is a lable I would readily self-apply). The only assumption that was a bit of a stretch is that the apple snatching evidences scoundrel-like tendancies.

I'm also not saying that the supposed genius-that-is-Spielberg cooked up all the details summarized in my post above. For all I know, Elliot ad-libbed the apple snatch. But what I do know is that the three scenes (the classroom, the Eaton/Musgrove meeting, and the 'careful fellow' scene) contain A LOT of exposition. And I'd argue that the exposition (verbal and non) in those three scenes is executed as good as it's ever been in an action film (compare the ham-handed village scenes in ToD). One of the things that makes the scenes effective is that there is so much movement in these scenes dominated by dialogue (Brody pocketing the apple, Indy turning over the chalkboard, Indy tossing his S&W. I don't care who thought of all the movement, but this movement is not accidental -- it's an established trick to keep the viewer engaged. And I think wordless gestures like the apple-snatch get bonus points when they help to define a character (like Indy turning the chalk board visibly demonstrates his passion for the subject). Bottom line, film-making is a collaborative process and some combination of the writer/director/actors/creator/cinematographers/set designers/etc. made something that worked and worked exceptionally well.

Pale Horse
06-09-2004, 02:08 PM
or maybe it was in the screenplay? :D

Katarn07
06-09-2004, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by Finn
I wasn't, as you can see. I was actually trying to slow down these über-speculants. Somehow I find it a little unbelieveable that Spielberg had THIS much in mind when shooting the scene. ;)

I guess I was referring to Joe and no, Spielberg didn't mean for all of this talk about such stuff when he shot it, he probably just though it looked good :p

Finn
06-09-2004, 02:21 PM
Sigh... picky picky. Anyway, when I said "Spielberg", one should have understood that I meant all the people working with that scene, e.g. did Denholm Elliott think: "Now if I take this apple, it presents this biggest explanation to the deep relationship between Indy and Marcus" or "I'll put this apple in my pocket, let's give the audience the dibs go 'hey' abd say 'That bastard stole Indy's apple!'..."

Despite the fact these little touches can be seen as major symbols of the relations between two characters, I still like to think more down-to-earth and find simpler (and thus more likable) reasons why they were there... of course, if you ever run to a really boasting, bigwig movie maker (not meaning that GL, SS, HF or whoever working with the Indylore would be like this) and ask him was this there because of this, he can easily say "Yes, exactly" even if there was a way simpler explanation.

Joe Brody
06-09-2004, 02:31 PM
I'm not saying these are 'major' symbols. I'm just saying that these small actions have meaning and were given concsious thought by someone as a means to help fill the frame, keep the viewer engaged, and, hopefully, shed a little light on the characters.

Can you watch those three scenes and take all of the movement in those scenes and discount it to the 'simplest' explanation possible?

Finn
06-09-2004, 02:58 PM
Yes. Look at the movement very closely and you will actually realize that Denholm has an ant (or two or three) inside his underwear...

Katarn07
06-09-2004, 03:01 PM
Yeah, well I like reading 'uber-speculations' (:p) over the rambling of Indy IV rumors. I'm not sure why you dislike them and have to shoot them down....

Joe Brody
06-09-2004, 03:02 PM
[Laughing] Good catch. It's very clear to me that the ants are used in the same manner as the snakes and rats later in the film to demonstrate that the Ark is a bad thing.

Joe Brody
06-09-2004, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by Matthias1138
Yeah, well I like reading 'uber-speculations' (:p) over the rambling of Indy IV rumors. I'm not sure why you dislike them and have to shoot them down....

I hear you. I actually deleted a sentence from an earlier post in which I said maybe I wouldn't be going so stir-crazy over Raiders if I had another Indiana Jones film to discuss.

Indyologist
06-09-2004, 03:46 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Finn
[B
<small>And that could imply to the fact Indy receives apples (and cherries) all the time.</small> :p

Do you mean cherries to, um, "pop?" Sorry.

westford
06-09-2004, 03:48 PM
I was gonna say that the guy with the apple was a "suck up", but after that last post it might be taken the wrong way...

katanga
06-09-2004, 07:07 PM
Maybe it was an sublime advertising thing for Apple (Macintosh)?

Attila the Professor
06-09-2004, 08:27 PM
Well, y'know...even if something isn't intended, it can still work as some great little indications of character. Sometimes there is even unintended symbolism...has anyone ever heard about how The Wizard of Oz is supposedly really about the gold standard?

Strider
06-09-2004, 08:38 PM
I wonder when it was worked into the script.

Katarn07
06-09-2004, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by Attila the Professor
Well, y'know...even if something isn't intended, it can still work as some great little indications of character. Sometimes there is even unintended symbolism...has anyone ever heard about how The Wizard of Oz is supposedly really about the gold standard?

Actually.... yes. Very interesting theory but it's just someone over analyzing the story. A lot of stuff in Literature is over analyzed I think. Can't books just have been written for entertainment and not some deeper meaning? I'd say yes, but people delve into them anyways just as Joe Brody's doing with this particular scene. I really see nothing wrong with it, either. It's all very intriguing stuff :)

Joe Brody
06-09-2004, 09:01 PM
Originally posted by Attila the Professor
...has anyone ever heard about how The Wizard of Oz is supposedly really about the gold standard?

. . . yeah those good for nothing tax-and-spend-supply-side-deficit-building-good-for-nothings down in Emerald City . . . .

. . . .but that's a long story for another day.

Great to see you Attila! [BTW, I saw Wicked last October and it was pretty good.]

Pale Horse
06-10-2004, 12:00 AM
Originally posted by Attila the Professor
has anyone ever heard about how The Wizard of Oz is supposedly really about the gold standard?

Really? I never got that from the Dark Side of the Moon Album.

Back on topic, I don't think that Brody would have picked up the apple off the table if it wasn't falling in the first place.

It is my contention that Denholm was so into the acting, that he wouldn't have wanted to start the whole scene over; just catch the apple and keep on going. (It saves time and money when they don't have to reset everything, and they didn't want a blooper with the falling apple.) That just left where to put it.

I think the boy delivering apple was a stereotypical reference to the whole apple a day student teacher relationship that exists to this day.

Joe Brody
06-10-2004, 09:24 AM
I think the cinematography in the three scenes (classroom, the Eaton/Musgrove meeting, and Indy's House) is the best in the film -- and it's the only thing that I can tender in support of my theory that the apple snatch was planned and intentional. [Bear with me on this, I'm no film student and I'm not up on the proper terminology, and, as per usual, I go on too long.]

Watch the three scenes and check out the angles and camarawork and how each actor's movements tie into everything perfectly. From Marcus turning his head to check out the female student in the hall outside the classroom (I assume Elliot being a dirty old man would be the 'simplest' explanation there, right Finn?), to the shot of Marcus sitting on the arm of the couch/chair in Indy's house, where his figure ties perfectly into a line with the bust against the back wall, the standing lamp and Indy packing his suitcase. In this later shot, both Marcus walking into the room and the line created by him sitting on the couch arm, creates depth -- which enhances the dramatic effect when Indy tosses his S&W forward into the suitcase (this is my favorite shot in the film). The last quick shot of the gun resting in the bag positions the viewer's eye perfectly for the next shot of the seaplane.

Now back to the apple snatch in the classroom, it's in the lower part of the screen. That shot is designed to go back further into room where Indy goes to pick up the little artifacts to justify his ticket the Marrakesh. At the beginning of the shot, Marcus takes the apple, polishes it and then pockets it. As the shot tracks back into the room, Marcus then picks up the Egyptian brush (some help here from the archaelogy crowd?) and then back to Indy where he takes the proffered trinket. At this point, at the far side of the room, Indy learns he's got to go see the Military Intelligence guys, he then goes forward out of the classroom in a slight tizzy ('What am I, in trouble?'). The viewer is first pulled into the scene (helped along by Marcus's movements) and then shot out along with Indy.

I think that all the dialogue and exposition in these scenes is not boring in large part because of this great attention to detail. Even at the most dialogue intensive part of the three scenes -- where Indy and Marcus explain the Ark's history, there's the highly skeptical Major Eaton' with his bulging eyes in the middle of the back-and-forth. Not only is it's hilarious and a neat little change-up but his prescenes grounds the back-and-forth.

These scenes have a big responsibility: there has to be closure on Indy's failed attempt to get the Idol, establish Indy as an archaelogist, and set up for the major story. All this has to be done in as little time as possible without the viewers getting bored -- which is almost sure to happen when there's too much talking with actors standing around with their hands at their sides (watch a bad action movie -- like Phantom Menace or Attack of the Clones -- and you'll be surprise at how much standing around and talking there is).

Now I don't know if the apple snatch was planned, but I'd say that the apple was a visual marker that served to focus the viewer's eye in the lower front corner of the screen so that the viewer would then be pulled back into the room. Marcus's movements help move the viewer's eye along. And again, I'd argue that the apple snatch (along with Marcus checking out the female student) is non-verbal exposition that gets bonus points because it not only helps the movement in the shot but it tells us something about the character.

Finn
06-10-2004, 09:35 AM
Originally posted by Indyologist
Do you mean cherries to, um, "pop?" Sorry.

Originally posted by westford
I was gonna say that the guy with the apple was a "suck up", but after that last post it might be taken the wrong way...

Now now, it appears that the girls are the dirtyminds here. :p

I confess, I was just waiting to see who'd grab the hook.

Indyologist
06-10-2004, 09:40 AM
Hey, was the "apple guy" the only male student in the class? I'll have to check my DVD when I get home...

Indyologist
06-10-2004, 09:48 AM
Okay, you guys have all posted some interesting theories as to why the male student in Indy's class in Raiders sarcasticly left an "apple for teacher" on his desk. Some of you guys got way too analytical, BTW. Still, it was interesting to see how some of your minds work! :)

Here's my own personal theory. We all remember Miss I-Love-You-On-Her-Eyelids in that scene, right? Well, could it be that at one time this girl was THAT guy's girlfriend? Or perhaps Indy could have stolen the heart away of some other girl in that class that was once his gal? When he puts the apple on Indy's desk, I definately don't think he was trying to be a "suck up." You can see on his face that he's obviously angry. I interpreted his "apple-giving" in this way: "Way to go, a----le , you stole my girl. Hope you're happy now. Here's an 'apple for teacher.'"

Here's another theory: Could Indy be giving higher grades to the girls because he likes them, while the poor lone sap of a guy has to accept a lower grade? Discriminating, I know-- but hey, I'd be p---ed off too!

Finn
06-10-2004, 10:02 AM
Now, that would be difficult to think about Indy. He is obviously more browned off, embarassed and distracted by the attention he gains than pleased about it. That theory would kinda go against the idea of Indy's two sides. On the other hand he's an adventurer who goes 'roung and rough, on the other again and homey teacher who knows exactly how the things are done on that field too.

I still say that the apple was nothing but a simple school allegory. But when Marcus snatched the thing, then I agree there can be something more than just a quick moment for 'hey'.

Joe Brody
06-10-2004, 10:43 AM
. . . I could be wrong but I think there were (at least) two male students. . . .

Indyologist
06-10-2004, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by Finn
Now, that would be difficult to think about Indy. He is obviously more browned off, embarassed and distracted by the attention he gains than pleased about it. That theory would kinda go against the idea of Indy's two sides. On the other hand he's an adventurer who goes 'roung and rough, on the other again and homey teacher who knows exactly how the things are done on that field too.



It is true that Indy's embarrassed by too much attention. I would also imagine that Indy would do his best to be fair as a teacher, so perhaps my second theory was incorrect. But do you think that perhaps there are girls in his class that get a little more "extra credit?" Maybe.

I'm pretty sure I know what you're talking about as far as Indy's "two sides," but could you kindly elaborate what you mean by this, Finn?

Finn
06-10-2004, 12:01 PM
What's so complicated in that "two sides" -issue?

Practically, Indiana Jones in the wilderness and and Dr. Jones in the college are shown nearly as two different characters. While in the class, Indy is strictly theoretical, he almost acts dully towards his students and sticks strictly to the taught subject at hand... and find female attention more a nuisance than a joy. When the man wearing a fedora returns from the wilderness, we might imagine him dropping in some shanty bar to have a pint, not going to the middle of the civilization, turning a glass- and tweed-wearing bookworm. Now I'm going analytical (though this same analysis was made by the big L himself), but there is a wide ravine between the college Indy and adventure Indy, nearly so wide that they could be taken as two different character. Somehow, I don't think that a Nazi trooper for example, when running into a leather wearing American nuisance, would even be able to imagine (if he really stopped for a moment and thought about it) that this man's daily job is teaching history to kids.

IndyGirl821
06-10-2004, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by katanga
Maybe it was an sublime advertising thing for Apple (Macintosh)?

lol! Oh yea, I'd like to say i am SO THRILLED!!! that the raven is back!!!! YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY!!!
When it first broke down, i felt horrible! Everyday i would go on, just to c if it was on. but it's bac now, so WHIPee!!! lol. Fo rthe apple scene, i personally think that it was just meant to feel the school atmosphere, but maybe the kid was a mama's boy, and his mom made him give Indy an apple, but he was embarressed because he thought only girls liked Indy? not very likely... OH WELL.

Joe Brody
06-10-2004, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by Finn
. . . .there is a wide ravine between the college Indy and adventure Indy, nearly so wide that they could be taken as two different character[s]. . . .

Shades of the old 'Is Indy a Superhero' thread?

Finn
06-10-2004, 01:06 PM
Not a bad thought, but not quite. You can lead a double life even without having to dress in thighs.

Joe Brody
06-10-2004, 01:32 PM
I never got into that debate - I just seem to recall that people on both sides were pretty into it.

matthiassatlure
06-13-2004, 08:56 PM
What if the "apple guy" was just being protrayed as a stereotypical "nerd"?

Strider
06-13-2004, 09:11 PM
Maybe that's just what appleman is bub.

matthiassatlure
06-13-2004, 09:26 PM
Was it in the script?

Strider
06-13-2004, 09:28 PM
I asked the same question earlier bub, no answer yet.

Pale Horse
06-14-2004, 12:02 AM
No, it wasn't in the script, per se.

My Whips Bigger
06-15-2004, 06:19 AM
I think the guy was in love with Indy secretly, but because Marcus was there, he felt a bit embarrased about it.

Indyologist
06-15-2004, 07:52 AM
Originally posted by My Whips Bigger
I think the guy was in love with Indy secretly, but because Marcus was there, he felt a bit embarrased about it.

OMIGOSH! ROTFL! My Whips, you are baaaaad! :eek: :D
Perhaps the apple was a metaphor for the garden of Eden and he wants Indy to be his "Eve?" Okay, okay, that's enough. Gotta stop before I puke! My apologies to everyone! Let's keep in mind that Indy has probably bedded women on all 7 continents!

VP
06-15-2004, 08:01 AM
Originally posted by Pale Horse
per se.

lol.



<small>Finn, I know this is a wanha one, but I just had to.</small>


Originally posted by Indyologist
My Whips, you are baaaaad!

Indyologist, you're too conservative. This isn't the 1930's anymore.

Indyologist
06-18-2004, 07:53 AM
Guess I'm just an old-fashioned gal-- and proud of it! :D

Indyologist
06-18-2004, 07:55 AM
By the way, there were 3 guys in Indy's class in Raiders. If I mentioned this already, sorry for the repetition.

Finn
06-18-2004, 10:44 AM
<small>Originally posted by VP
Finn, I know this is a wanha one, but I just had to. Cut it out, dirty mind.</small>

IndyGirl821
06-21-2004, 11:28 PM
Originally posted by My Whips Bigger
I think the guy was in love with Indy secretly, but because Marcus was there, he felt a bit embarrased about it.


WHOA! I think its time to move ahead...

LostArkFan81
06-29-2004, 12:17 AM
Originally posted by Attila the Professor
has anyone ever heard about how The Wizard of Oz is supposedly really about the gold standard?

The Wizard of Oz which had been originally written during the 19th century is a populist piece. It is about farmers being hurt by droubts, and Dorthy represents the working class going to Washington(Emerald City) to ask the Wizard(the president of the United States) for help but unfortunately he can't. Each character represents someone or something like the wicked witch being the droubt who dies from water of course, the lion is William Jennings Bryan who is the populist presidential candidate, the Tin Man represented silver which Bryan advocated, and I think the scarecrow was the farm. However, there is plenty you can read about this or take a course in late nineteenth and early twentieth century U.S. history in college. I wish I could remember all the details though.

About the apple: The girls in Indy's class all have crushes on him and so does a gay male student, who gives Indy the apple to show his love for the teacher. It is wierd if nobody can find this information because it had already been understood by Indy fans, critics, and the general public two decades ago. Oh well, I guess newer generations of film goers have to learn this stuff too.

Joe Brody
06-29-2004, 08:03 AM
Originally posted by LostArkFan81
About the apple: The girls in Indy's class all have crushes on him and so does a gay male student, who gives Indy the apple to show his love for the teacher. It is wierd if nobody can find this information because it had already been understood by Indy fans, critics, and the general public two decades ago. Oh well, I guess newer generations of film goers have to learn this stuff too.

LostArkFan81,

This is news to this fan of 20+ years, and frankly I have no recollection of the issue being so well understood back in the early '80's. I'd like to see some confirmation on this point. If you're right, it just goes to show that someone was very forward thinking back then.

Attila the Professor
06-30-2004, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by LostArkFan81
The Wizard of Oz which had been originally written during the 19th century is a populist piece. It is about farmers being hurt by droubts, and Dorthy represents the working class going to Washington(Emerald City) to ask the Wizard(the president of the United States) for help but unfortunately he can't. Each character represents someone or something like the wicked witch being the droubt who dies from water of course, the lion is William Jennings Bryan who is the populist presidential candidate, the Tin Man represented silver which Bryan advocated, and I think the scarecrow was the farm. However, there is plenty you can read about this or take a course in late nineteenth and early twentieth century U.S. history in college. I wish I could remember all the details though.

About the apple: The girls in Indy's class all have crushes on him and so does a gay male student, who gives Indy the apple to show his love for the teacher. It is wierd if nobody can find this information because it had already been understood by Indy fans, critics, and the general public two decades ago. Oh well, I guess newer generations of film goers have to learn this stuff too.

You seem absolutely right on The Wizard of Oz, though I've heard the allegory may have been unintentional. The thing about the apple...that I'm suspicious of.

ElodieJones
07-01-2004, 10:33 AM
Maybe the student said or make something wrong to Indy.
And Indy put the student in the back of the class room.

After the lesson, the student, always angry with Indy, give to him a apple for say sorry.

Johan
07-02-2004, 10:56 PM
I'd have to say they just wanted to potray a classic "steriotype" thing to do at that time.

Rocket Surgeon
09-08-2012, 01:17 PM
A fun blast from the past, and interesting reading in light of the re-release...

reinthal
09-20-2012, 11:53 AM
Well, I've always thought that it was strange that though all the girls in Professor Jones' class seemed to have a crush on him (actually they were almost swooning!) that it was a *male* student who at the end of the class went up to the front table and put an apple on it. Even when I first saw the movie at an innocent 15 years of age I thought it was pretty peculiar and I eventually arrived at the conclusion that it was the filmmakers' joke to suggest that that male student had a crush on Dr Jones as well. A funny sense of humour if correct, I suppose, but I guess the point they were trying to make was that Indy - even in his straight-laced professorial mode - was irresistible!

inky_skin
09-20-2012, 12:32 PM
Sometimes an apple is just an apple.

Rocket Surgeon
09-20-2012, 12:58 PM
This one seems to be the most simple, straight forward explanation...

...it may have something to do with the fact that all the girls in the class seem to have a crush on Indy. Maybe this guy felt he needed to suck up a little in order to get noticed. Especially with all the ladies in class trying to get Indy's attention. The guy doesn't seem to happy when he storms out of the class.

InexorableTash
09-22-2012, 12:31 AM
I don't know what the writer, director, or actors in the scene intended in 1981.

But at the marathon screening in San Francisco last weekend, the modern 21st Century interpretation of the scene was apparent and unanimous; the entire audience gave apple dude a sympathetic "awwwww".

reinthal
09-22-2012, 06:57 AM
Thumbs up to your anecdote InexT! :up:

Whatever it was the writers intended, it's clear that the student wanted to be in good favour with teacher. That's all I need to know!

Finn
09-22-2012, 09:23 AM
You can say what you like about the films succeeding Raiders what comes to overall story, dialogue, acting, whatever, but if there's something that's truly consistent throughout all of them, it's this. The attention to background detail and how there's always something to pick up even in the scenes that are otherwise more static.

I, Don Quixote
09-22-2012, 05:13 PM
Maybe the kid has a crush on Indy too....
Just kidding. He looks kinda embarrassed, maybe he's a shy guy. I also love how Marcus eats it, almost as if Indy didn't even notice the kid put it there.

Does anyone know what happened to Indyologist? Did she just grow tired of the Raven? That would be too bad, she posts cool threads and posts.

WeAreGoingToDie
09-24-2012, 12:12 PM
I looked into why students give apples to teachers a long while back (unrelated to Raiders, I just noticed that its a common thing in older movies and shorts and cartoons) and what I found was that apples were a traditional present for teachers in the US and a few European countries. It may have started as a simple gift of food for poorly paid teachers or the idea that apples have connotations with good health (an apple a day keeps the doctor away) so it's a way of showing appreciation for teachers.

Of course, doing this makes you a bit of a brown noser, thus the phrase "apple polisher" for kids who suck up to teachers.

I think I saw kids giving apples in Little Rascals and Looney Tunes shorts, which were created around the time Raiders took place.

Stoo
09-26-2012, 01:49 PM
maybe the kid was a mama's boy, and his mom made him give Indy an apple, but he was embarressed...I'm going to agree with the 12-year-old girl because this is how I see it, as well. His mother made him do it!:whip:
But at the marathon screening in San Francisco last weekend, the modern 21st Century interpretation of the scene was apparent and unanimous; the entire audience gave apple dude a sympathetic "awwwww".:D

Goodeknight
09-26-2012, 02:43 PM
But at the marathon screening in San Francisco... the entire audience gave apple dude a sympathetic "awwwww".

Hmmmm...."Not surprised" is all I'll say.

About the apple: The girls in Indy's class all have crushes on him and so does a gay male student,... It is wierd if nobody can find this information because it had already been understood by Indy fans, critics, and the general public two decades ago.

And to briefly comment on this 8-year-old thought --- Seriously!?!?!

I remember the 80s, and people saying, "What?? George Michael is GAY?!?!?"

http://www.80s-fashion-fancy-dress.com/images/80s-george-michael.jpg

Apple dude was kissing up because he missed a paper, got a bad grade, or didn't feel like he got enough attention in the class.

Rocket Surgeon
09-27-2012, 08:44 AM
Hmmmm...."Not surprised" is all I'll say.The film doesn't change...we do. Gotto give it to the producers, they crafted a work that continues to be reimagined and puzzled over.

And to briefly comment on this 8-year-old thought --- Seriously!?!?! I remember the 80s, and people saying, "What?? George Michael is GAY?!?!?"Girls hopefully...

Apple dude was kissing up because he missed a paper, got a bad grade, or didn't feel like he got enough attention in the class.The simple answer is most likely correct.

Surely SOMEONE was in an Archaeology class for archaeology!:rolleyes:

Forbidden Eye
09-28-2012, 12:46 AM
I'm going to agree with the 12-year-old girl because this is how I see it, as well. His mother made him do it!:whip:
:D

That's how I always interpreted it. Never thought it was a mystery.:p

Kooshmeister
09-28-2012, 02:47 AM
Speaking as a bisexual man myself, the thought that the student might have a gay crush on his teacher never entered my mind until I read this thread. Thinking on it now, it's a cute idea, but I doubt it very, very much. :p

My interpretation was the actor was being difficult or was angry for some reason or just a bad actor. They didn't want to do a retake and Denholm Elliott saved the scene by grabbing the apple to take attention off the kid's bad acting.

Apropos of nothing, with all this talk of the student character being bi/gay, I'm surprised nobody mentioned Denholm Elliott was bisexual himself. :up:

In-story, I'll go with the idea that for whatever reason, this particular student was being grumpy and the presence of Marcus made him even grumpier about giving Dr. Jones an apple. So he just sucked it up, put it on the desk with as much dignity as he could muster (which wasn't much) and walked out. Doesn't he even shoot Marcus a look as he goes? I don't remember either man paying any attention to the student himself, weirdly enough.

Montana Smith
09-28-2012, 10:38 PM
...the thought that the student might have a gay crush on his teacher...

Fruit? (Polari).

Who is he really leaving it for?

http://www.theraider.net/films/raiders/gallery/dvdscreenshots/084.jpg

http://www.theraider.net/films/raiders/gallery/dvdscreenshots/085.jpg

Rocket Surgeon
09-29-2012, 02:07 PM
I don't remember either man paying any attention to the student himself, weirdly enough.Lends itself to the notion that he's vying for attention in the class...and he's just not getting any.

PanAm
01-26-2013, 10:49 PM
It doesn't have any direct bearing on the plot. It's not required to be there, and yet, there it is. Spielberg isn't a haphazard director, this detail made it into the final cut because he wanted it to be there. It's not a random event.

As for the extra's performance, I think if Spielberg wasn't happy with the performance, he would have either had the 1st AD reassign the "bit" to another actor, or else drop the gag entirely.

So, in the absence of any official word to the contrary, I'm going to assume that it's there because the director wanted it, and that the actor's performance was satisfactory. With those two points in mind, I think it's fair to analyze it...at least a little bit.

My interpretation is this: It's there as a sign of things to come. Indy never gets to keep his prizes.

In the opening, he finds the idol, and then loses it to Beloq, and then his student gives him an apple, which Marcus takes. By doing this twice within the first act, Spielberg establishes the pattern, which will continue throughout the remainder of the film.

Later, Indy finds and then loses Marion, and then the Ark -- both to Beloq, albeit temporarily.

He doesn't get to witness the opening of the Ark. Granted, it's by his own choosing, and for good reason, but still...he misses out on the experience.

And then, of course, he finally loses the Ark to the U.S. government.

Montana Smith
01-26-2013, 11:13 PM
My interpretation is this: It's there as a sign of things to come. Indy never gets to keep his prizes.

I like that idea.

Marcus takes the apple from Indy, just as he takes the artifacts from him for the museum. And everybody else is in the process of taking something from as well.

Essentially it's the idea that the protagonist has to have something to strive for. He needs to maintain his ambition - he needs to be kept hungry - or else he wouldn't bother to risk his neck.

ofacarpenter
01-27-2013, 12:45 PM
I like that idea.

Marcus takes the apple from Indy, just as he takes the artifacts from him for the museum. And everybody else is in the process of taking something from as well.
.

I don't know about this. This is plausible, and a true parallel with what is happening and is about to happen in the film(s). But, it feels a little intellectual/cerebral to me...

I understand the apple interaction as more revealing of character than of plot/theme. First, we learn that Indy's class is not an easy A; second, and more importantly, we learn that Indy can't be bought (he pays no attention to the student bribing him); and third, we learn that Indy has an obsessive and more focused, personal relationship to his work even than other serious, educated collectors (the absent-minded way Marcus deals with other artifacts on Indy's desk, Marcus's general level of distraction--which allows him to spot the apple in the first place, then begin snacking instead of getting wrapped up with Indy's story).

In other words, I think of the moment not as foreshadowing, but as character insight about Indy and Marcus and the way that they are foils for each other.

PanAm
01-27-2013, 01:00 PM
Can't it be both?

btw, I never got an impression one way or another about Indy's class being easy or not.

ofacarpenter
01-27-2013, 05:58 PM
Can't it be both?

btw, I never got an impression one way or another about Indy's class being easy or not.

Yeah. I think it could be both. True enough! Btw what I meant about his class not being easy was that the kid seems to feel it necessary to suck up to get a good grade. Although, I guess the kid might be just a total slacker haha.

Montana Smith
01-27-2013, 11:38 PM
We merely make a simple film more complex, and inherently more engaging, by applying our own interpretations to it.

It's the basis of critical theory.

Many interpretations become valid if you allow for subconscious decisions on the part of the creator(s), in the form of social and cultural influences, and these films are already overtly mimicking the past.

replican't
01-28-2013, 07:52 AM
This thread is priceless.

The kid is gay, fancies his teacher, leaves Indy an apple as a token of his love. Simple as that.

What the f*ck are you people smoking?

Rocket Surgeon
01-28-2013, 09:09 AM
This thread is priceless.The kid is gay, fancies his teacher, leaves Indy an apple as a token of his love. Simple as that. What the f*ck are you people smoking?
Haven't had decent puff in a coon's age, but now I know what YOU'RE smokin...

WilliamBoyd8
01-28-2013, 09:56 AM
"The deal was for the watermelon, kid!"

:)

replican't
01-28-2013, 10:32 AM
"The deal was for the watermelon, kid!"

:)

One shaped like Marion?

Mickiana
01-28-2013, 01:59 PM
The kid is gay, fancies his teacher, leaves Indy an apple as a token of his love. Simple as that.

I don't see it, but I do see your insistence.

landros
01-29-2013, 05:14 PM
just read http://johnaugust.com/2013/scriptnotes-ep-73-raiders-of-the-lost-ark-transcript and then ironically the Lost Arc was played on TV last night. I watched the apple scene intently and had a laugh at the girl blinking before . I like the idea that the apple is set up for Marcus to simply take just as later he gives the Ark away. And also a foreshadow of Marrion being something Indy could lose.

However I thought the student's unhappy look was because of jealously. I thought from his perspective he was in a class with many hot girls but they were all so into the teacher that he couldn't compete for their affections.:whip: :D

Montana Smith
11-10-2013, 10:31 AM
"I should have mailed it to the Marx Brothers!"

It may be a coincidence but in the 1932 Paramount Picture, Horse Feathers, Groucho interrupts a class in progress. He proceeds to introduce two new students: Chico and Harpo.

Chico gives the teacher an apple (while Harpo hands over a water melon).

As soon as the teacher puts the apple on the table Groucho picks it up and pockets it.

Groucho Marcus? ;)

Mickiana
11-10-2013, 04:06 PM
"I should have mailed it to the Marx Brothers!"

It may be a coincidence but in the 1932 Paramount Picture, Horse Feathers, Groucho interrupts a class in progress. He proceeds to introduce two new students: Chico and Harpo.

Chico gives the teacher an apple (while Harpo hands over a water melon).

As soon as the teacher puts the apple on the table Groucho picks it up and pockets it.

Groucho Marcus? ;)

Well spotted. Wouldn't it be great if Kasdan or Spielberg could confirm or deny it?

Montana Smith
11-11-2013, 03:26 AM
Well spotted. Wouldn't it be great if Kasdan or Spielberg could confirm or deny it?

A couple of quick searches with reference to Lucas didn't turn up anything. It may do for Kasdan or Spielberg.

Having now watched Animal Crackers, Monkey Business, Horse Feathers and Duck Soup, and regarding them especially in light of KOTCS, I'm tempted to say that Indiana Jones owes as much to The Marx Brothers and he does to the cliffhanger serial!

There's that throwaway line in TLC directly placing Indy into the same world in which they existed as stars on the screen. The apple gag seems close.

Then there's instances such as Indy's fight with the German mechanic; the madness of the hunt for the diamond amongst the ice cubes; the hammer on the Thuggee's head; the fighter 'plane into the tunnel; Vogel thrown from the airship; the flying fridge; the rubber tree; the snake in the sandpit... and so on.

Serial adventure meets screwball comedy, occasionally taking a very satirical look at real life.

Indy's hat gag would form part of the same theme, since hats play quite a part in Marx Brothers' comedy.

Stoo
11-13-2013, 10:49 AM
As soon as the teacher puts the apple on the table Groucho picks it up and pockets it.

Groucho Marcus? ;)Very interesting, Smiff, and I'm curious to know if this is just a coincidence or not. There are 2 Marx Brothers references in "Crusade" so *if* this apple bit was intentional, it wouldn't surprise me at all.

Cool find, however! Thanks for mentioning it.:hat:

kongisking
11-13-2013, 11:21 AM
Indy needed to shut up and eat his apple. ;)

Montana Smith
11-14-2013, 01:03 AM
Very interesting, Smiff, and I'm curious to know if this is just a coincidence or not. There are 2 Marx Brothers references in "Crusade" so *if* this apple bit was intentional, it wouldn't surprise me at all.

Cool find, however! Thanks for mentioning it.:hat:

Wouldn't it be great if Kasdan or Spielberg could confirm or deny it?


A quick Google for Spielberg and The Marx Brothers brings up a possible link.

Spielberg was the Executive Producer for Animaniacs. In an interview he explained that Animaniacs' humour of social commentary and irreverence was partly inspired by the Marx Brothers. ("Spielberg Toons In: Moviemaker extraordinaire Steven Spielberg reveals he's also an animaniac at heart". Larry Closs, TV Guide, October 28, 1995).

Closs, but no cigar?

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/About/General/2011/12/1/1322751224527/Grouch-Marx-007.jpg



"The deal was for the watermelon, kid!"

Was that an oblique reference to the scene in Horse Feathers? A watermelon being Harpo's gift to teacher.


Though the melon and the apple appear to share a close connection...

Lassparri: Never in my life have I received such treatment. They threw an apple at me.

Otis B. Driftwood (Groucho): Well, watermelons are out of season.

(A Night At The Opera, 1935)


Indy needed to shut up and eat his apple.

Eating a whole watermelon could have delayed Indy getting to Marion and changed the outcome of the film.


"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana." (Attributed to Groucho).

:p