Indiana was a Freemason: Or, what affiliations does he have on his resume?

[Pale Horse]

'allo

;)

I have been doing some research for a screenplay I am working on. Heavy stuff, that involves many hours of spent in the library. In the process of my studies, I was looking at the Freemason and their connection to, well, everything; depending on who you believe. It got me thinking.

Is Dr. Henry Jones Jr. a Freemason? Does he have ties to Freemasonry? I found a pulpish description of an ideal Freemason, and will post it below. This is not my description, this is the description the Freemasons would have you believe. I think it fits Indy to the 'T'.

If you see a man who quietly and modestly moves in the sphere of his life; who, without blemish, fulfils his duty as a man, a subject, a husband and a father; who is pious without hypocrisy, benevolent without ostentation, and aids his fellowman without self-interest; whose heart beats warm for friendship, whose serene mind is open for licensed pleasures, who in vicissitudes does not despair, nor in fortune will be presumptuous, and who will be resolute in the hour of danger;
The man who is free from superstition and free from infidelity; who in nature sees the finger of the Eternal Master; who feels and adores the higher destination of man; to whom faith, hope and charity are not mere words without any meaning; to whom property, nay even life, is not too dear for the protection of innocence and virtue, and for the defense of truth;

The man who towards himself is a severe judge, but who is tolerant with the debilities of his neighbour; who endeavours to oppose errors without arrogance, and to promote intelligence without impatience; who properly understands how to estimate and employ his means; who honours virtue though it may be in the most humble garment, and who does not favour vice though it be clad in purple; and who administers justice to merit whether dwelling in palaces or cottages.

The man who, without courting applause, is loved by all noble-minded men, respected by his superiors and revered by his subordinates; the man who never proclaims what he has done, can do, or will do, but where need is will lay hold with dispassionate courage, circumspect resolution, indefatigable exertion and a rare power of mind, and who will not cease until he has accomplished his work, and then, without pretension, will retire into the multitude because he did the good act, not for himself, but for the cause of good!

If you, my Brethren meet such a man, you will see the personification of brotherly love, relief and truth; and you will have found the ideal of a Freemason.

[Joe Brody]

Interesting topic.

[Jokingly] I'm thinking there might be a problem because I'm inclined to believe that Indy's serene mind is open for UNlicensed pleasures as well. . . .

Palehorse,

I think the passage is a good fit. My only question would be a practical one: if you buy into Indy's vagabond youth and young adulthood, was he ever in one placed long enough to get 'tapped' for entry into a local lodge/group of Masons?

I don't know much about the masons but it's always been my impression that secret societies supposedly scope out their candidates for entry in advance and that there's an internal nomination process that ususally requires several members to support the nomination. If you're thinking of plugging Indy into the Mason's I think one of your challenges is to draft a story or backstory where the nominee(s) have sufficient prior interaction with Indy to tap him for entry.

As for Masons, I know there is tons of literature out there -- but one of the oldest and most widely known fictional works is the Pierre storyline in 'War and Peace'. I don't know if you've read 'War and Peace' but you may want to be familiar with it. I think Tolstoy's writing on the Masons was a bit of scandal back in the day. [apart from Tolstoy, I know there's tons of published stuff about the founding fathers, etc.]

[Finn]

Now, I'd like to point out something.

Of course, a thing like that will bring Indiana Jones to your mind. But find any description of pure valiance... and you can associate the man with the hat to the description with very little brainwork.
Less than minor in fact, I'd say.

[Indyologist]

I personally do not think that Indy had any associations with the Masons. However, that was a be-yoo-tiful description of an Ideal man and parts of it did bring Indy to mind. Thanks for sharing it.

The only association I know of that Indy was part of was the Greek fraternity he belonged to at U of C. Can't remember what that was. Fraternites/Sororities are usually associated with some kind of profession, so perhaps his frat had to do with history/archeology.

I bet he was a member of some kind of archeological society, though. I'm not sure what kind of assocations with this profession exsisted back then. Also, I don't know what kind of grades Indy got as he went for his Masters, but I bet they were pretty high. I guess he was Ravenwood's most promising student, so one can only imagine that he was probably in some honor society and most likely graduated with honors.

Wish we could make up a "resume" for Indy. Anyone up to it? It would be interesting to have as a reference work, or even just for fun.

[Indyologist]

Originally posted by Joe Brody
Interesting topic.

[Jokingly] I'm thinking there might be a problem because I'm inclined to believe that Indy's serene mind is open for UNlicensed pleasures as well. . . .



LOL-- AKA "years of fieldwork" in "primitive sexual practices!"

[Pale Horse]

Well I will agree, that post about an ideal man good apply to may people. It is sanatized to be sure, but that brings up a whole new and interesting line of speculation. As reported, that was a Freemasons version of what an ideal man should be. They wrote it, so that is the way they wish to be seen. The are constantly tinkering with their image.

Which bring us to Jones. As Joe pointed out, he has never been in one place long enough to have ties to a fraternal oragnization. But certainly with his study at the U of C, and his association with Abner, the claws of the Freemasons certainly could have grabbed deep into Jones. Heck, put a fez on Marcus Brody and give him a funky hand shake and Brody fits the part of a drunken lodge buddy to the 'T'. I think the important people around Indy would give him access to the society. And if Brody, as curator to a museum, was a high order Mason, than maybe his association to Eaton and Musgrove goes far beyond cooperating with the governement.

That could be the reason behind why I feel the Brody sold Jones out when the Ark was returned to the States, and also why I believe that Abner is still alive and is one of the Top Men alluded to at the end of RotLA. After all, he was the "real expert." according to Jones.....

[LaoChe]

Actually, I could see Indy being associated with the masons. Definately his father would've been, having been so obsessed with the grail!

There's another Sean COnnery movie called "The Man Who Would Be King" with Michael Cain, where they both play freemasons!

The mason connection could explain how Indy has friends spread out all over the world!

[Finn]

What next? You start seeing clear allegories in that Sallah actually does fear a fez in LC? :p

...now, I think you go little far beyond with this speculation about the untold aspects of the film. Of course, you can believe that Indy is associated with the masons, but do not start claiming that in front of someone who does not, because this thing will always remain as a matter of opinion.

[LaoChe]

Finn,

I'm unclear who you are responding to...

[Finn]

You all in general. I complained about this to you freaks in that one other thread (http://raven.theraider.net/showthread.php?threadid=6083) already. :p

[LaoChe]

Well,

I guess in defense of this speculation, I don't think it's completely inconceivable. Indiana Jones, after all, is based on the serial pulp adventures of Yesteryear. H. Rider Haggard, I would say, is one of the biggest influences, having pretty much written the original Indiana Jones story (aside from GrimJim)

Guess what? He was a freemason! As were most of his characters!!

So maybe it is not DIRECTLY mentioned in the Indy movies, the inspiration is there and therefore the SUGGESTION exists.

But since I am only talking speculation and suggestion, of course it is entirely arguable.

But it does make you think...

[Finn]

Now, I never denied that, my friend.

I just find it amusing in all how far these people here can stretch their brain.

[LaoChe]

Fair enough!


Long live the brain stretchers!!!

(But don't stretch 'em too far!)

[bob]

Indy a Mason - sure why not!

Perhaps Indy rather than being the victim of circumstance in fact has his own agenda.....

[Pale Horse]

Maybe not his own agenda, but one that the society has ascribed to him, one that he agrees with and one that he accepts with great responsibility.

Which leads to the next question for us brain stretchers.

What do all of the artifacts that Indy has gone after all have in common?

on a freemason level, of course...

[Aussie Jones]

I couldn't agree less.

[Pale Horse]

Why is that Aussie?

[Finn]

<small>We have been flooded! Abandon ship! Abandon sheep!</small>

[Pale Horse]

never mind the flood, at least a good topic was brought up again. I just hope Aussie Jones (which is uniquely like "anti-jones") posts why she feels that IJ is not a freemason.

[blur]

On a gut level, I don't think Indy would go in for the trappings of Freemasonry.

Do we know Indy's religion? While Freemasonry is supposedly 'open'; it has been largely linked with certain religions, rather than others, over the years.

[Pale Horse]

The Masonry is loosly based on Judeo Christian beliefs, but has no ties to any religion tenants. You have to believe in a Supreme Being, and can not be atheistic.

In my research I found the following

the 33 Masonic Levels, or Degrees:

1. Entered Apprentice
2. Fellowcraft
3. Master Mason

Lodge of Perfection
4. Secret Master

5. Perfect Master
The Fifth Degree, or Perfect Master, emphasizes the two virtues, Industry and Honesty. The Master Khurum (Hiram) had both of these virtues. Idleness, the great enemy of growth, whether mental or spiritual, is the brewer of mischief and vice. "To sleep little, study much, say little, think and hear much, to learn to do earnestly and vigorously whatever is required by duty" are the precepts of the Mason who follows the Master. A Mason should always be honest in his contracts, sincere in his statements, and keep all promises and covenants even to his own disadvantage.

6. Intimate Secretary
7. Provost and Judge
8. Intendant of the Building
9. Master Elect of the Nine
10. Master Elect of the Fifteen
11. Sublime Master Elected
12. Grand Master Architect
13. Master of the Ninth Arch
14. Grand Elect Mason
Council of Princes of Jerusalem
15. Knight of the East or Sword
16. Prince of Jerusalem
Chapter of Rose Croix
17. Knight of the East and West
18. Knight of the Eagle and Pelican
Consistory
19. Grand Pontiff
20. Master ad Vitam
21. Patriarch Noachite
22. Prince of Libanus
23. Chief of the Tabernacle
24. Prince of the Tabernacle
25. Knight of the Brazen Serpent
26. Prince of Mercy
27. Commander of the Temple
28. Knight of the Sun
29. Knight of Saint Andrew
30. Grand Elect Knight Kadosh
31. Grand Inspector Inquisitor Commander
32. Sublime Prince of the Royal Secret

Given all of the degrees listed above, I thought it would important to study the character of Indiana Jones as presented in the movies, and then to examine the nature of the different degrees of Masonry. Given both sets of knowledge, Indiana Jones fits squarely into the 5th degree Mason. In addition, the 5th degree is symbolized by the sextant, the same tool Dr. Jones uses constantly in his profession.

Now, before you all flip out and say this brain stretching is all a bunch of hooey, I am not suggesting that Jones is a member of the Illuminati, the Templars, or the like, just that he has a fraternal connection to the Masons, as did many people back in the 20’s and 30’s. The sinister aspects of this fraternal group are held in the characters of Abner, Fedora, Donovan, Chattar Lal, and the afore mentioned Eaton and Musgrove.

An interesting fact about the search for the Ark and some of the theories found in THIS (http://raven.theraider.net/showthread.php?threadid=5668&perpage=15&pagenumber=3) thread. Jerusalem is 33 degrees off of the prime meridian that runs through Paris. 33 is the highest order of Free Masonry. (It’s also the mysterious number on the back of a Rolling Rock bottle too, hmmmm.) If its true that Indiana Jones had a history is Israel with Abner in 1909 on a dig at the El Aksa Mosque, I think is it certainly safe to assume that the theory of the Ark being under the Dome of the Rock are true. I also think that that is the reason M&E went straight to Indy and Brody, instead of searching elsewhere for someone more suitable to conduct an excavation.

I have more, but I want to see what anyone else here thinks.

[Finn]

<small>Mr. Brown, we have a new case study for you. Should we deliver him in drugs or will simple old-fashioned binding up do?</small>

[blur]

Originally posted by Pale Horse
The Masonry is loosly based on Judeo Christian beliefs, but has no ties to any religion tenants. You have to believe in a Supreme Being, and can not be atheistic.

Yes, you've pulled that from some Mason-friendly site, but it's not the point I was making. Did you know, for example, that until not too long ago, the Catholic Church barred its members from becoming Masons? That's a lot of potential members (under what you just posted), who weren't actually eligible if they believed in their Church.

Further, in my experience, the vast majority of Freemasons I have come across, or known about, have been from one of the Protestant religions. So while the rules speak of being open, the craft has largely been a WASP-friendly environment.

This is the point I was making by asking about Indy's religion. For example, if he was Catholic, I think you could be quite assured that he wasn't a Mason, for example!

Also, to take one of the levels and compare it to Indy doesn't ring true either; given that these levels aren't like some amazing thing it takes years to achieve. It's relatively quick to move through these titles and it's actually quite funny that everyone ends up getting a cool sounding name in next to no time, in addition to everyone getting a turn at running the Lodge, etc. To the outsider it sounds impressive, but it's not all that hard to achieve, or even that symbolic.

You say you've been doing research. Get out there and continue it with articles like this:

http://www.true-life.org.uk/pages/story11.htm

And many others like it on the Web, and tell me if this is something you think Indiana Jones would have the time of day for.

[Pale Horse]

Originally posted by blur
Yes, you've pulled that from some Mason-friendly site, but it's not the point I was making. Did you know, for example, that until not too long ago, the Catholic Church barred its members from becoming Masons? That's a lot of potential members (under what you just posted), who weren't actually eligible if they believed in their Church.


Well most of this is speculation, anyway. Afterall we are talking about a fictional character. There are as many reference materials that endore Free Masonry as there are that condemn it. But these types of studies are far better in my opinion than some of the more simplistic threads that can grace many message boards from time to time.

I doubt that Indy has any religious affiliations. There is a thread on this deep in the Indy archives here at the Raven, but I am too lazy today to go and find it. It might even be said that he was an atheist, at least until the Raider incident on the island. That would certainly go against whichever stance you take on the Free Masons.

You could be right that Indy's time is more valuable to him than participating in a fraternal group, but what if he was an unknowing pawn to one of the other possible Masons I made reference too?

[blur]

Oh, in that I have no doubt. Some of the artifacts Indy goes after would interest high level Masons, and there would definitely be Masons in positions of power across the world at that time (there still are; but it's not quite the same today), so I have no doubt people funding the museum or Indy's college or particular expeditions themselves, were indeed Masons.

[Pale Horse]

Okay, lets assume Musgrove, Eaton and Donovan are all Masons, high ranking ones at that. We'll assume Indiana does not have a fraternal organization listed on his resume. (Save some Greek Fraternity, but I'll save that one for Joe Brody or bob).

What would the Ark of the Covenant and the Grail have in common?

I'll spin it this way, if the Cup caught the Blood of Christ at the Crucifixation, and the Ark needs a blood sacrifice for atonement, where does that put the Masons?

[blur]

In the box seat!

[Pale Horse]

How do you know, their not rigging the fight?

[Joe Brody]

Originally posted by blur
. . . .Also, to take one of the levels and compare it to Indy doesn't ring true either; given that these levels aren't like some amazing thing it takes years to achieve. It's relatively quick to move through these titles and it's actually quite funny that everyone ends up getting a cool sounding name in next to no time, in addition to everyone getting a turn at running the Lodge, etc.

. . . .[jokingly] this all sounds oddly familiar for some reason. [snapping my fingers] I can't quite make the connection but it sounds like something quite familiar. . . . .

Seriously, I was traveling for a week and am just reading Palehorse's stuff now. I've been curious about his theories for some time and have to admit that I'm impressed. There's more to it than I thought. So Palehorse, you admit there's a problem at least with respect to Marcus being a member?

[Pale Horse]

Marcus' characterization certainly describes his mannerisms in the Last Crusade. To some extent, so does Donovan. Someone brought up his white shoes earlier. But the RotLA Marcus was far more ambiguous.

I don't want to spill the whole bowl of soup here, without others helping me to determine the Rorschach that results when all the facts are realized. But look how Donovan and Brody are influential men in Indy's career/quests. If it wasn't for Brody and the coincidential meeting with the "Army", Indy would not have been a Raider. To that end, when the 4 men (kinda apocalyptic don't you think) are in D.C., even Brody seems satisfied that the Ark's compensation is adequate. "I'm really rather envious myself" has always been a line of his that struck me as odd. It's as if Marcus knows that Indy will find the Ark, and, though Indy is a pawn in the Mason's chess game, Indy will get to see the Ark, and Marcus won't. It's as if he is resigned to that fact, even before there has been a quest.

And Donovan. "Hitler can have the Grail, I'll be drinking to my health, long after he's gone the way of the dodo." There is so much that can be said about the seemingly deceptive ways he works, I could write an entire thesis on it...(hope I didn't give too much away there, Joe.) One of the things that is interesting, is that Marcus is effectively taken out of the loop when it comes to the grail quest. It's as if the powers on high, knew that there shouldn't be two much power, or influence in anyone's hands.

[Indydan13]

I think it could be possible. However, I believe Indy would be less deceptive and more humane than most masons. However, for the sake of mankind and fans.

[Pale Horse]

Originally posted by Indydan13
However, for the sake of mankind and fans.

Your incomplete sentance is ambiguous. Were you starting a theroy or thought here?

[Indydan13]

Sorry, simple grammatical-typing error.

Should have read "...more humane than most masons, however, for the sake of mankind and fans."

Meaning I would hope that Indy wouldn't be a backstabbing, self-promoting murderer (as portrayed in "From Hell") and would be the selfless hero that we all know and love.

[Pale Horse]

Well, I think we have come to a consensus here that Indy is not, but the men above him are...."Top Men", Brody, Donovan....

[Indydan13]

True...True...That would make sense. Especially donovan...

[Stoo]

[QUOTE=Pale Horse]Okay, lets assume Musgrove, Eaton and Donovan are all Masons, high ranking ones at that.QUOTE]

There are masonic symbols (compass and square) on the doors of Donovan's
apartment.

[Neolithic]

I guess you'd have definitive evidence in the films if you took screen shots of Indy shaking hands with whoever he happens to be shaking hands with- is he doing the secret hand shake?

Of course, you'd have to know what the secret hand shake looks like. :rolleyes:

Even though this is all hypothetical, I just can't see Indy wearing an apron and little white gloves. :)

[Stoo]

Neither in my mind. I really don't believe Indy would have been a Mason
but agree with Pale Horse's possibilty of Musgrove, Eaton and Marcus.
The symbols on the doors make sowewhat of a case for Donovan.

Hypothectially, if a handshake *was* to be seen in a screen-capture
I wouldn't post it on the internet...(Shhh-it's a secret!) ;)

[Pale Horse]

Ah, my Free Mason Theory. :cool:

I have been updating my studies on the Free Masons, Rex Deus, The Knights Templars as well as other areas conspiratorial concepts. I was going to use it in my posts to the Crusade (http://raven.theraider.net/showthread.php?t=7527) thread developing, as well as in the Fan Fiction (http://raven.theraider.net/showthread.php?p=170494#post170494) thread. The whole handshake thing is such brouhaha. We've never, I mean...they never had such a thing.

[LaoChe]

The whole handshake thing is such brouhaha. We've never, I mean...they never had such a thing.

Not true. There really IS a handshake, just a way to identify yourself to other masons. Its clever too, because if you've ever received a mason handshake, you probably didn't even notice -- unless you knew what it was!

[Pale Horse]

Oh yeah, sorry:

http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/fiction/conspiracy_theory/conspiracy02a.jpg

:rolleyes:

[Stoo]

Pale Horse, I am also on the "Crusade/Grail" thread so, please do write
something up there. I'm interested to read whatever you have to say.

And as Lao Che says, there is a handshake. Sometimes specific to the lodge.

[Pale Horse]

no one knows how to keep a secret. eeesh. Next thing we are going to read about is filming schedules for IJ-IV.

Which avenue of Freemasonry should we talk about...?

[Stoo]

I have been updating my studies on the Free Masons, Rex Deus, The Knights Templars as well as other areas conspiratorial concepts. I was going to use it in my posts to the Crusade (http://raven.theraider.net/showthread.php?t=7527) thread developing...

My good man, the aspect in which you refer to above. ;) It's a good thread.
Have at it.

Otherwise, your original query was about the possibility of Indy being a Mason.
Apart from having certain character qualities, I just don't see any hints...
and unless he said it in sarcasm, Indy's "Fortune and glory" line detracts
from the idea.

To support the thought, though, he *was* in the Boys Scouts of America
and all Scouts have a special (not secret), left-handed handshake!
Scouts' creator Baden Powell may/may not have been a Freemason but
his ideals were the same. Someone suggested fraternities during Indy's
Univ. of Chicago days, which isn't too far-fetched, but the few brief
glimpses in "Young Indy" haven't gone there yet. Imagine a new one?
"Young Indiana Jones and the Secrets of Hiram Abiff"...

[Luisiana Jones]

really i don´t think of Indiana as a Mason, that hand shake may just be a coincidence, i dont´t think he did it in order to show his masonery rank or to identify himself as one, sorry i just can´t see him as one. :p

[Stoo]

really i don' think of Indiana as a Mason...
...sorry i just can't seem his as one. :p

Maybe you weren't reading carefully enough since you're basically agreeing
with what I'm saying. ;)

that hand shake may just be a coincidence, i dont´t think he did it in order to show his masonery rank or to identify himself as one

The "handshake" being discussed is not in the movies and is completely
hypothetical/imaginary. Which one are you talking about? No one has
claimed that Indy made a Masonic handshake in the films.

[Luisiana Jones]

well i just saw the pic, and thought it was taken from one of the movies, sorry if i misread you then, or maybe i didnt get what you guys were trying to say :(

[Luisiana Jones]

and yup i didnt read the posts carefully, just saw the pic and i read something about the indy movies and masonic hand shake and bang, there you got it, my opinion on Indy movies and masonery that it was similar to yours but thats just luck ;)

[Pale Horse]

Okay, I think we are getting away from the original premise of this thread, mostly because of some gross misunderstandings of Free Masonry. That’s okay, I have them too. I think many of you are trying to determine if Indy is the type of Free Mason that is represented in the Flintstones cartoon (with the funky gloves and the Grand Poobaugh) . We all know Indy isn’t one of those.

"You are strangely dressed, for a knight"
yeah, and your language is distinctly different than Middle French, but whose complaining…

The Original 9 Knights of the Knights Templars:

Hugues de Payen
Geoffrey de St Omar
Andre’ de Montbard
Payen de Montdider
Achambaud de St-Amand
Gondemare
Rosal
Godefroy
Geoffroy Bisol


were initially commissioned to excavate in Jerusalem near the place of the sacred temple (hint: Ark of the Covenant). Details of what they found are clouded at best. That is where the stories start to spider-web into myth and legend. What we do know is that for several Crusades afterward, these Knights, and their counterparts routinely traveled to Jerusalem and beyond to protect either their booty or their honor. History (written by the winners) determines their success and we can get into that in a different thread.

So that brings us to Indy, and those above him. You see the Original Knights were not knights at all. They were archeologists, they just didn’t know it. Now we have a modern day archeologist, whose tools are trowels, plumb bobs, brushes and Vernier gages (hmmmm, sounds similar to Mason tools, doesn’t it). On the flip side, Indy’s tools are a mean fist, a Webley .455 Mark VI and a David Morgan 10’ whip…tools of a 1930’s Knight.

You see, I do think a case can be made that Musgrove and Eaton are part of a conspiratorial Illuminati, and that Donovan is also part of that Illuminati, only approaching it from the other side, (but in fact they are on the same side…never mind, that’s a different thread). Indy just happens to be the happenstance victim who is charged by the kings above him to claim the artifacts that the kings need for their crown. One day Indy believes that the artifacts will bring him the “Fortune and Glory” any true knight deserves, but until then, he will go after these artifacts with the deep sense of conviction that the desired treasures “belong in a museum.”



Which leads to the next question for us brain stretchers.

What do all of the artifacts that Indy has gone after all have in common?

on a freemason level, of course...

Any ideas..I do :p

[Deadlock]

Once again, I'm not going to touch the artifact thing....

I wanted to address the issue of Marcus. Here's my research into why Marcus isn't a Mason. I'm surmising that he is indeed Catholic, which I believe strongly based not only on his Sign of the Cross at the end of Last Crusade, but also his conversation with Indy at Henry Sr.'s house. It is illegal according to ecclesiastical law for a Catholic to join any secret society. Masons aren't real fond of Catholics either, so even if Marcus were only a marginal Catholic, I don't think the Masons would have tolerated him.

Past Grand Deacon J.C. Parkinson, an illustrious English Mason, frankly avows: "The two systems of Romanism and Freemasonry are not only incompatible, but they are radically opposed to each other" [The Freemason's Chronicle 1884, II, 17. ] and American Masons say: "We won't make a man a Freemason, until we know that he isn't a Catholic." [The Freemason's Chronicle 1890, II, 347: see also 1898, I, 83.]


The action of the Church is summed up in the papal pronouncements against Freemasonry since 1738, the most important of which are:

Clement XII, Const. "In Eminenti", 28 April, 1738;
Benedict XIV, "Providas", 18 May, 1751;
Pius VII, "Ecclesiam", 13 September, 1821;
Leo XII, "Quo graviora", 13 March, 1825;
Pius VIII, Encycl. "Traditi", 21 May, 1829;
Gregory XVI, "Mirari", 15 August, 1832;
Pius IX, Encycl. "Qui pluribus", 9 November, 1846;
Pius IX, Alloc. "Quibus quantisque malis", 20 April, 1849;
Pius IX, Encycl. "Quanta cura", 8 December, 1864;
Pius IX, Alloc. "Multiplices inter", 25 September, 1865;
Pius IX, Const. "Apostolicæ Sedis", 12 October, 1869;
Pius IX, Encycl. "Etsi multa", 21 November, 1873;
Leo XIII, Encycl. "Humanum genus", 20 April, 1884;
Leo XIII, "Præclara", 20 June, 1894;
Leo XIII, "Annum ingressi", 18 March, 1902 (against Italian Freemasonry);
Leo XIII, Encycl. "Etsí nos", 15 February, 1882;
Leo XIII, "Ab Apostolici", 15 October, 1890.

Catholics since 1738 are, under penalty of excommunication, incurred ipso facto, and reserved to the pope, strictly forbidden to enter or promote in any way Masonic societies.

[Pale Horse]

http://www.youngelephant.com/images/smilies/yougo.gifhttp://www.youngelephant.com/images/smilies/hearhear.gifhttp://www.youngelephant.com/images/smilies/drunksing.gif

So what about when Indy says to the "Top Men" "didn't you ever go to Sunday School?" ;)

[Deadlock]

So what about when Indy says to the "Top Men" "didn't you ever go to Sunday School?" ;)

Well, that might imply that Indy went to Sunday School. When combined with Henry's Sr.'s slap in the face for misusing the name of God in Last Crusade, I'm going to guess that Indy had some sort of religious upbringing. Whether or not it was Catholic, I can't say. I'm going to guess it was something older and more conservative, just because it would seem out of character for Henry Sr. to be at very charismatic church. :)

[Luisiana Jones]

I have always considered Henry and Indy been catholic, i mean in last crusade is where you can clearly see Indy was brought up in a religious way, we can see the 3 threats of God before he can reach his goal, we see that Henry´s house is full of catholic paintings, and we see Henry´s obsession with the holy grial, i can see it very clear, but hey just my view :p

[Pale Horse]

Well, that might imply that Indy went to Sunday School. When combined with Henry's Sr.'s slap in the face for misusing the name of God in Last Crusade, I'm going to guess that Indy had some sort of religious upbringing. Whether or not it was Catholic, I can't say. I'm going to guess it was something older and more conservative, just because it would seem out of character for Henry Sr. to be at very charismatic church. :)


Well, Indy's upbringing isn't the question, what I was so dreadfully trying to imply was that (at least in the 1st film) Musgrove and Eaton (now to be M&E) feigned their ignorance to anything called the Ark (which appealled to Indy's instructors nature) so they roped him into going after it. But, when the package was delivered, it was a whole different story.

I still think I am not making sense.

[Deadlock]

Well, Indy's upbringing isn't the question, what I was so dreadfully trying to imply was that (at least in the 1st film) Musgrove and Eaton (now to be M&E) feigned their ignorance to anything called the Ark (which appealled to Indy's instructors nature) so they roped him into going after it. But, when the package was delivered, it was a whole different story.

I still think I am not making sense.

I think that it's altogether likely, that even if M&E are Masons (why not? DC membership was up in the 1930s (http://www.bessel.org/dcstartl.htm)) it remains entirely possible that they were not feigning ignorance.

It should be noted, that the great majority of Masons are far from being "initiated" and "are groveling in Egyptian darkness". [The Freemason's Chronicle 1878, II, 28.] "The Masonry of the higher degrees", says Pike [The Inner Sanctuary (1870-79)] "teaches the great truths of intellectual science; but as to these, even as to the rudiments and first principles, Blue Masonry is absolutely dumb."

Perhaps M&E were simply themselves pawns of "top men." ("Top men" like Henry A. Wallace...)

[Shovelbum]

I personally do not think that Indy had any associations with the Masons. However, that was a be-yoo-tiful description of an Ideal man and parts of it did bring Indy to mind. Thanks for sharing it.

The only association I know of that Indy was part of was the Greek fraternity he belonged to at U of C. Can't remember what that was. Fraternites/Sororities are usually associated with some kind of profession, so perhaps his frat had to do with history/archeology.

I bet he was a member of some kind of archeological society, though. I'm not sure what kind of assocations with this profession exsisted back then. Also, I don't know what kind of grades Indy got as he went for his Masters, but I bet they were pretty high. I guess he was Ravenwood's most promising student, so one can only imagine that he was probably in some honor society and most likely graduated with honors.

Wish we could make up a "resume" for Indy. Anyone up to it? It would be interesting to have as a reference work, or even just for fun.

There isn't an archaeology fraternity. Lambda Alpha is the Anthropology fraternity, but wasn't founded until the early 1970s. Eta Sigma Phi is Classics fraternity and Phi Alpha Theta is the history fraternity... either would be appropriate for Indy. Eta Sigma Phi was established in the teens and Phi Alpha Theta in the 20s.

As for professional memberships... it's very likely he'd have been a member of the AIA (Archaeological Institute of America) - established in 1879 and chartered by Congress in 1906.

He also might have been a member of ASOR (American School of Oriental Research), which has been around since the turn of the century and is centered on Near and Middle Eastern (including Egypt) and Biblical archaeology.

[Pale Horse]

There isn't an archaeology fraternity. Lambda Alpha is the Anthropology fraternity, but wasn't founded until the early 1970s. Eta Sigma Phi is Classics fraternity and Phi Alpha Theta is the history fraternity... either would be appropriate for Indy. Eta Sigma Phi was established in the teens and Phi Alpha Theta in the 20s.

As for professional memberships... it's very likely he'd have been a member of the AIA (Archaeological Institute of America) - established in 1879 and chartered by Congress in 1906.

He also might have been a member of ASOR (American School of Oriental Research), which has been around since the turn of the century and is centered on Near and Middle Eastern (including Egypt) and Biblical archaeology.

Excellent post shovelbum. It makes me wonder a bit. What sorts of papers would Indy have had to submit to his collegues? Is he published? How does he document his "finds"?

[Pale Horse]

Perhaps M&E were simply themselves pawns of "top men." ("Top men" like Henry A. Wallace...)

H.A.W., the agriculturalist? :confused:

I'll throw other "Top-Men" into the mix:

Frank Byron Rowlett (http://www.nsa.gov/honor/honor00002.cfm)
and
William Frederick Friedman (http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/wfried.htm)

[Deadlock]

H.A.W., the agriculturalist? :confused:

Operative word "LIKE." :)

Yes, yours are better matches. Wallace was from Iowa and I saw something on him recently. Apparently, he was a factor in getting the Great Seal on the dollar. So, I'm thinking he had some influence beyond agriculture.

[Pale Horse]

No, it can't be!

http://cnparm.home.texas.net/Nat/USA/Rockefeller,JohnD.jpg

Doesn't get much higher than him!

[Joe Brody]

Palehorse,

If you're pouring, I'm ready to drink the Kool-Aid.

I hope I haven't missed others but I think your post from 3/3 is the best base summary of your hypothesis.

Now I don't think you're arguing the Mason angle to the Arc of Indiana Jones' life was always some part of some grand design but rather a neat direction for the series to take that would work to tie things together and provide a larger challenge?

So if its not the Pope delaying Indy IV, is Lucas just waiting for 'From Hell' to work its way back on the rental shelves?

[Pale Horse]

Palehorse,

If you're pouring, I'm ready to drink the Kool-Aid.

I hope I haven't missed others but I think your post from 3/3 is the best base summary of your hypothesis.

Now I don't think you're arguing the Mason angle to the Arc of Indiana Jones' life was always some part of some grand design but rather a neat direction for the series to take that would work to tie things together and provide a larger challenge?

So if its not the Pope delaying Indy IV, is Lucas just waiting for 'From Hell' to work its way back on the rental shelves?

Hindsight is always clearer than forward thinking. It's hard to say, though when your dealing with the Original Jedi Master in Lucas, and the Illuminati Understudy (http://www.konformist.com/flicks/eyeswideshut.htm) in Spielberg. Sometimes the plans of those in control are very hard to discover.

I haven't found any academic or literary references to the Grail or the Ark actually being used in the ancient Freemason king making rituals, but there certainly could be a case made for such a theory, if one was so inclined to follow that path in a Writing Contest (http://www.theraider.net/features/contests/fanfiction_contest.php). How frustrating would it be to find out that no matter how quick witted/lucky/blessed or hero was, he would still be foiled by the string-pullers above him. Not to mention, if he was able to make the connection, he too, could become a king. It all depends on how you spin it.

[Joe Brody]

he too, could become a king.


Like Conan?

[Joe Brody]

Like Conan?

I meant this as a serious question. I've never seen the film or read the books but wasn't he the classic outsider who fights his way to the top? Like in 'Chronicles of Riddick'?

[I don't think the Richard III approach would suit Indiana Jones.]

[Deadlock]

I meant this as a serious question. I've never seen the film or read the books but wasn't he the classic outsider who fights his way to the top? Like in 'Chronicles of Riddick'?

Your comparison to Riddick just reminded me of how much I didn't like what they did with that storyline. I'd prefer if Riddick remained the conflicted and violent loner. What is he going to do as the leader of a fricking empire?

Frankly, I'm bored with the lone hero having to be some sort of "long-prophesied chosen one." I think the Matrix might be largely to blame for that, but that doesn't change my thinking that it is overused.

[Pale Horse]

Frankly, I'm bored with the lone hero having to be some sort of "long-prophesied chosen one." I think the Matrix might be largely to blame for that, but that doesn't change my thinking that it is overused.

Thanks for ruining my fan fiction of Indy becoming the Avalon King and avenging the death of Marcus. eesh :whip: :dead: I was sooooo onto something here. It would have been a 4 hour epic screenplay with all of the information I have found. :p

[Joe Brody]

It would have been a 4 hour epic screenplay with all of the information I have found. :p

Boy did you hit the nail the head with that one. I'd say it there's no way a action-adventure screenplay could handle the type exposition required for a grand design Mason storyline -- especially if you want to weave in references to the past films.

What is [Riddick] going to do as the leader of a fricking empire?

Be the subject of coup that results in a reversion to his former status? (that's assuming there is another sequel). I share your hero-fatigue but I enjoyed the Chronicles nonetheless.

[Deadlock]

Thanks for ruining my fan fiction of Indy becoming the Avalon King and avenging the death of Marcus. eesh :whip: :dead: I was sooooo onto something here. It would have been a 4 hour epic screenplay with all of the information I have found. :p

You'll get over it. :p

Be the subject of coup that results in a reversion to his former status? (that's assuming there is another sequel). I share your hero-fatigue but I enjoyed the Chronicles nonetheless.

Don't get me wrong, I loved Pitch Black and enjoyed Chronicles at a certain level. I just didn't live up to the tension and intimate character conflicts of the first film.

[Joe Brody]

You could be right that Indy's time is more valuable to him than participating in a fraternal group, but what if he was an unknowing pawn to one of the other possible Masons I made reference too?

Well, I think we have come to a consensus here that Indy is not, but the men above him are...."Top Men", Brody, Donovan....

Pale Horse,

Still looking for the pivotal top man? Go watch Last Crusade. When Fedora and his gang burst in on Young Indy and the Sheriff there's one guy who was not part of the group that chased Young Indy on the Circus Train. He's wearing a bowler and is very stern faced. He just sits back and watches. Sure he's likely just another one of Panama's goons but still, he's a body witnessing a critical moment and he's got the right look. I always wondered why Henry Senior never came out of his study and why he made Indy count to ten . . . .almost like he knew something was going down.

[Jokingly][I guess this means you have to add Mr. Havelock to your list of Masons as well.]

[Joe Brody]

[Jokingly][I guess this means you have to add Mr. Havelock to your list of Masons as well.]

Here's a scenario (and forgive me if you've posted something like this before). The entire opening sequence in Last Crusade was actually a test by the Mason's to see if Indy was worthy of being groomed as their 'master pawn' or whatever you want to call it. Henry Sr., Havelock, the Sheriff -- and Fedora (especially) is in on it. The test is to see how Indy reacts when he comes across wrong-doers (the ethical element) and how he acts once the chase is on (the performance element). Havelock's (as a scout master, he would be a teacher and a good candidate for being a Mason) job is to get Indy to the cave and then clear out all the other scouts ("everyone else is lost but me" NOT!). Fedora's first job is to 'find' the cross at the right moment and then give chase. Once Indy escapes Fedora & co. Young Indy has passed the performance element. Once Young Indy hands the cross to the Sheriff he's passed the ethical element. Bowler (another hat name) is a witness and a leader from the Mason's HQ sent to watch the test. Heck, if Fedora is the retiring 'master pawn' then Bowler could be to Fedora as Marcus is to Indy. Again, Henry Sr. would know about the test and would know that any assistance by him would cause Indy to fail, so all he can do is sit at his desk -- back to Indy -- and do nothing. Indy passes the test by handing the cross to the Sheriff (who, incidentally appears to be in his Sunday best) and everyone leaves. The end. Indy is now the Mason's new up and coming master pawn.

O.K., so Bowler was most like just a deputy.-- but believe me, I've been to Moab and there's nothing there to warrant both a Sheriff and a deputy (back then or today). Plus its a spiffy car Bowler drives up to the Jones house. And speaking of the Jones house -- what is a professor of Medieval Lit doing out in the desert except bidding time for his son to take the test?

[Moedred]

In the Dinosaur Eggs novel, Belloq says he descended from the Knights Templar. So he might have joined his local Commandery, though he would be a black sheep in the brotherhood.

I wouldn't mind if someone in Crystal Skull wore a little square and compass, like in Tombstone. Maybe Ray Winstone's character.

[Stoo]

I wouldn't mind if someone in Crystal Skull wore a little square and compass, like in Tombstone. Maybe Ray Winstone's character.Check out the doors of Donovan's apartment in “Crusade”...

[otto rahn]

Well,

I guess in defense of this speculation, I don't think it's completely inconceivable. Indiana Jones, after all, is based on the serial pulp adventures of Yesteryear. H. Rider Haggard, I would say, is one of the biggest influences, having pretty much written the original Indiana Jones story (aside from GrimJim)

Guess what? He was a freemason! As were most of his characters!!

So maybe it is not DIRECTLY mentioned in the Indy movies, the inspiration is there and therefore the SUGGESTION exists.

But since I am only talking speculation and suggestion, of course it is entirely arguable.

But it does make you think... Ah James Schuyler Grimm ! Must read the one of that series that I have. Another influence on Indy would be Professor Challenger, although his theories seem more "maverick" than Indie's !

[IndyJr.]

He's not a free mason. The character he is, is due to what he's learned in Young Indy episodes not freemasonry.