Anti-Westerns

The Wild Bunch: Set in 1913, on the eve of the first world war, an wild band of outlaws led by Pike Bishop(William Holden) are hanging their hats; and in the name of self interest they hit a bank dressed like soldiers. Pursued by their ex-patron, Tete Thorton, who has an score to settle and an contract to fullfill; he vows to capture them, be it dead or alive. Meanwhile, with their first robbery a failure of sorts, they decide to head south of the border where they encounter a revolution and a sadistic General.

Seeking modern weaponry, the General employs the bunch to raid a train, host to an spiffy array of weapons, and they pull it off with success. However, an disagreement occurs, and falling back on their principles, they start their own war on the General and his cohorts. A bloody war that spans close to seven minutes...

I mentioned already that this is my favorite western, and I think my reasoning for this is it's label: Its the nail in the coffin, or the most significantly self conscious western ever made. There is no more honor and chivalry left, only their honor towards each other, which is already eroding to begin with.

So its really transition; we view outlaws of the old west as something to romanticize, but here they're just a gang of hardened criminals. Normally you would object to everything they do, and you do; the treatment of women for instance is questionable. But we follow them, since they are the only thing that makes sense and anything that makes sense we cling on to. And that makes the ending even more bittersweet.

Feel free to critique any other "anti" western. It might be hard to define though. Im not even sure on Blazing Saddles. To begin with, it reads more like a parody than a traditional western. But whats a traditional western?

Whatever it may be, anything...

"Anti" Western... now, I don't know if this actually is the thing you are after, but I couldn't help thinking a funny little flick called <i>Rhustlers' Rhapsody</i>.

<small>Me and my odd jolly mind, I know...</small>

......No, can't say it is. Although Im hoping it is "Anti" something, in which case I would call that relation enough.

Unforgiven (1992) : Clint Eastwood's Oscar winner for best picture and director.

Unforgiven: Its an anti western in many respects; for example the treatment of women is not only brought up its the focas of the film itself.

Well what drives the screenplay? The bounty on an criminal, who happened to cut a prostitute. The mutilation on her face is there in graphic detail, and she actually speaks more than one mandatory line; and the professsion of prostitution is actually seen from the perspective of the women. This is progress; in the last two decades what was normally seen in a western was finally shattered, the role of women have finally surfaced, and it wasn't paid the usual lip service!

The themes of age, death, and redemption. These are very popular, although its rarely presented as well as it was in this film.

Lonesome Dove, I want to see this, since its right up my alley, but I've never actually came across it as of yet. Unfortunately, I've heard that there are too many threads dangling, and that some of the subplots were a little weak, and seeing how its four hours...

Then again I also heard the production values are exceptional...

The Man Who Shot Liberty Valence

Yes, it was directed by John Ford. But John Ford, besides being the greatest director of Westerns, knew his form well and was willing to push the boundaries. "Liberty Valence" cuts to the very heart of the Western saga and asks whether the "civilizing" of the West was really such a good thing after all. The supreme irony is what really expresses this - John Wayne's character, having helped young Ransom Stoddard kill Liberty Valence, finds himself an outsider in the new "civilized" world he helped create. And so, as in The Searchers, he leaves.

The Outlaw Josey Wales. Clint Eastwood's masterpiece pre-Unforgiven, and one of the few Westerns of its time to actually hire Native actors to paly Native parts! It's all about a man who wants nothing more than to live his life, is forced by the Union (nobody's perfect!) to enter a life of violence, and when he tries to escape it all, is condemned for it.

The perfect western Anti-hero.

(besides, Cheif Dan George is hilarious!)

Film discussion, back then was more indepth, too....

Pale Horse said:

Film discussion, back then was more indepth, too....

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Just now figuring out another way crystal skull is a curse huh?

Pale Horse said:

Film discussion, back then was more indepth, too....

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Uh, yeah...

Eight posts, and four of them with more than one sentence. Hmmm.

Been meaning to get back to that other Western thread though, the one where I posted the link to the 100 Greatest Westerns and Attila listed them.

Saw a few more since then, but wasn't very moved. It was interesting to see John Wayne and Jimmy Stewart together, but Bad Day at Black Rock had me pretty puzzled.

In a superficial way, I would call Black Rock an Anti Western. I just don't agree with calling films in the era of automobiles westerns, (among other things).

To me, horses have to be front and center.

Rocket Surgeon said:

I just don't agree with calling films in the era of automobiles westerns, (among other things).

To me, horses have to be front and center.

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I've fet the same way since I first saw A Fistful of Dynamite (a.k.a. Duck, You Sucker!)



I was expecting something following on from the Dollar films, but hadn't realized it was so far on.

Not only is it in my eyes an anti-western, but it's even an Italian anti-western. The automobiles signal the death of the west and the arrival of civilization, even if that civilization appears just as savage!

I've argued elsewhere that the 'Spaghettis' aren't true westerns, since they were an attempt to inject a different ethos into the movies to counteract Hollywood's growing blandness and shortage of bloody violence.

Leone's Once Upon a Time in The West is another example which bridges the gap to Duck, You Sucker! The railway stands in for the autos, encroaching across the wild west, to eventually tame and civilize it.

In American movies, I'd include The Shootist. Not only was it John Wayne's last film, but one set in the early twentieth century in which he's dying from cancer. This could almost be a response to the Italian reaction, a commentary on the cancerous death of the western. Wayne's character seeks to end his life with more dignity, in the manner of a Shootist.

Montana Smith said:

I've fet the same way since I first saw A Fistful of Dynamite (a.k.a. Duck, You Sucker!)

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Fantastic artwork on the poster, but it reminds me of ever bad, half asssed film I ever saw...where the poster was the best thing about the film!

Montana Smith said:

I've argued elsewhere that the 'Spaghettis' aren't true westerns, since they were an attempt to inject a different ethos into the movies to counteract Hollywood's growing blandness and shortage of bloody violence.

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I always looked on those films as a natural evolution of the western. I think exposure to the harder edge/violence kept the western a loved genre through my teens.

Can't ever get through Fistfull of Dollars with the kids yet, but they asked to watch the rest of The Magnificent Seven...

Montana Smith said:

Leone's Once Upon a Time in The West is another example which bridges the gap to Duck, You Sucker! The railway stands in for the autos, encroaching across the wild west, to eventually tame and civilize it.

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The rail cars in that were still victorian, in Bad Day at Black Rock it was just too streamlined, far to modern for me to classify it as a western.

Montana Smith said:

...one set in the early twentieth century

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The Wild Bunch dealt with autos as a curio, and horses/the lifestyle they fostered were still a fabric of the film.

Rocket Surgeon said:

The rail cars in that were still victorian, in Bad Day at Black Rock it was just too streamlined, far to modern for me to classify it as a western.

...

The Wild Bunch dealt with autos as a curio, and horses/the lifestyle they fostered were still a fabric of the film.

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Leone intended for the railway in Once Upon a Time in the West to represent the coming of civilization. The movie is often melancholic, and eventually became the first part of a trilogy. Duck, You Sucker! was the second part, and Once Upon a Time in America the third. The running theme was the end of the old west, but civilization only heralds new forms of savagery, wrapped up in the complexities of politics. In essence I think it's about the end of romantic idealism, which Hollywood had mythologized through the western.

Montana Smith said:

Leone intended for the railway in Once Upon a Time in the West to represent the coming of civilization. The movie is often melancholic, and eventually became the first part of a trilogy. Duck, You Sucker! was the second part, and Once Upon a Time in America the third. The running theme was the end of the old west, but civilization only heralds new forms of savagery, wrapped up in the complexities of politics. In essence I think it's about the end of romantic idealism, which Hollywood had mythologized through the western.

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There were all types of westerns, and like people attribute to Star Trek, a more modern/accessible way to present controversial ideas. Just as Planet of the Apes became a vehicle for the examinations of race, religion and war.

Westerns were many and varied thematically, some simple other complex...but what remained , (I just GOT to paraphrase Georgie here) was expressed in the ""vernacular" of the medium.

Horses, guns, the noose, ranches, roaming tribes, and a wild undiscovered frontier.

Rocket Surgeon said:

There were all types of westerns, and like people attribute to Star Trek, a more modern/accessible way to present controversial ideas. Just as Planet of the Apes became a vehicle for the examinations of race, religion and war.

Westerns were many and varied thematically, some simple other complex...but what remained , (I just GOT to paraphrase Georgie here) was expressed in the ""vernacular" of the medium.

Horses, guns, the noose, ranches, roaming tribes, and a wild undiscovered frontier.

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With the spaghettis I listen to and read Sir Christopher Frayling's dissection, but there's a Wiki page titled Revisionist Westerns looking at anti-westerns as a sub-genre.

There's a list of suggested entries in that sub-genre.

Nowadays I suspect that most westerns being made would be more self-reflecting, and therefore classed as 'modern'.

Montana Smith said:

With the spaghettis I listen to and read Sir Christopher Frayling's dissection, but there's a Wiki page titled Revisionist Westerns looking at anti-westerns as a sub-genre.

There's a list of suggested entries in that sub-genre.

Nowadays I suspect that most westerns being made would be more self-reflecting, and therefore classed as 'modern'.

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More summer reading!

I haven't dissected westerns all that much...it's mostly about feeling for me.

I think Once Apon a Time in The West is a fine film, but there was something off about it. From the music to casting...it didn't have any momentum, and just wasn't that entertaining. I may grow to appreciate it more but it's not very high on the list.

Rocket Surgeon said:

I haven't dissected westerns all that much...it's mostly about feeling for me.

I think Once Apon a Time in The West is a fine film, but there was something off about it. From the music to casting...it didn't have any momentum, and just wasn't that entertaining. I may grow to appreciate it more but it's not very high on the list.

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It was a very self-conscious film, with Leone at the height of stylistic intensity. That, along with the subject matter and the fact it was filmed mostly in Spain, make for an unnatural western. A western off-centre. It was unsettling, and I think that was Leone's intent. As such it may be one of the most 'anti-western' westerns. It has to be enjoyed differently.

What most of the Italian westerns (filmed in Spain) lack, is the great American scenery that features so prominently in genuine American westerns. Leone went to Monument Valley to capture some of that genuine scenery, but, as I mentioned elsewhere, the colour of the sand doesn't match Spain's. With Spaghetti's I'm always conscious that they're faking it, so I class them separately. To get into them you have to get into the difference in style.

Montana Smith said:

It was a very self-conscious film, with Leone at the height of stylistic intensity. That, along with the subject matter and the fact it was filmed mostly in Spain, make for an unnatural western. A western off-centre. It was unsettling, and I think that was Leone's intent. As such it may be one of the most 'anti-western' westerns. It has to be enjoyed differently.

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I appreciate the off kilter tone and presentation, but it's not the type of film I'm going to watch over and over...or buy on DVD.

Montana Smith said:

What most of the Italian westerns (filmed in Spain) lack, is the great American scenery that features so prominently in genuine American westerns. Leone went to Monument Valley to capture some of that genuine scenery, but, as I mentioned elsewhere, the colour of the sand doesn't match Spain's. With Spaghetti's I'm always conscious that they're faking it, so I class them separately. To get into them you have to get into the difference in style.

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You keep going back to the locales, and I guess thats where our definitions diverge.

Simply by the name "Western" you're justified in your, would it be objection, (?) to Spain or anywhere else as a substitute.

I wouldn't imagine that would be such a glaring issue, as long as the picture ostensibly remained in the States...it's interesting you pivot over that. It has to be something you read that tore the seams.

The location doesn't really matter to me...though it began and ended in the US, Hidalgo could have been entirely set in Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and Syria and it would still hold it's own.

Style has so many facets to consider...

Rocket Surgeon said:

You keep going back to the locales, and I guess thats where our definitions diverge.

Simply by the name "Western" you're justified in your, would it be objection, (?) to Spain or anywhere else as a substitute.

I wouldn't imagine that would be such a glaring issue, as long as the picture ostensibly remained in the States...it's interesting you pivot over that. It has to be something you read that tore the seams.

The location doesn't really matter to me...though it began and ended in the US, Hidalgo could have been entirely set in Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and Syria and it would still hold it's own.

Style has so many facets to consider...

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The location is just one of the points of divergence. Frayling refers to the Russian westerns as 'easterns'!

The Outlaw Josey Wales and The Good, The Bad and the Ugly feel very different, though both star Clint Eastwood, and both are concerned with the American Civil War. There's something different about the Italian approach that's very noticeable. There's the issue of the dubbing (as every actor spoke their own language on set, and all voices and every other sound were added later), and also the profusion of dark tanned faces and brown eyes. When the setting is meant to be Mexico the latin look is perfect, but in The Good, The Bad and the Ugly there's an excessive number of latin faces playing Civil War soldiers. It's hard not to forget where they were filmed, and the places from which the extras were drawn. Therefore the films look quite different from American made westerns.

On top of that there's the difference in style, and the director's intent to do things differently. Leone, for example, often did away with the linear gunfight, where two men face each other in a duel. Instead he created circular dueling arenas. As I wrote, the spaghettis have a very self-conscious feel to them.