Mason Association: Part II

[Pale Horse]

Indy actively pursuded several artifacts in the trilogy. They are al follows:

The Idol of Fertility
The Lost Ark (through the pursuading of U.S. Officials)
The Remains of Nurhachi - the first Emperor of the Manchu Dynasty.
The Sankara Stones (though not directly)
The Cross of Coronado, (not a pursuit, a revenge)
The Grail

Out of this list, only 1 has real merit, the Idol. If Indy is a mason, there is evidence enough to tie Eaton and Musgrove to such a society, for the obtainment of the Ark, as well as the Grail. Nurhachi was for money, the Cross was a revenge and the Stones were never a consideration outside obligation.

Is there a connection here?

[VP]

What the heck is Mason?

[Pale Horse]

Freemasonry, a worldwide fraternal organization, often calls itself "a peculiar system of morality veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols." Its members are joined together by high ideals, of both a moral and metaphysical nature (and, in the majority of branches, by a common belief in a Supreme Being). Freemasonry is an "esoteric art," in that certain aspects of its internal work are not generally revealed to the public. Masons give numerous reasons for this, one of which is that Freemasonry uses an initiatory system of degrees to explore ethical and philosophical issues, and this system is less effective if the observer knows beforehand what will happen.

From World IQ.com

[VP]

Oh yeah, the Vapaamuurarit.

[bob]

I am in part baffled and in part inspired by your dedication to this theory Pale Horse!

Now I can believe and have suggested that there is something sinister in the establishment American figures in the Indy trilogy (Army intelligence guys, and even Donovan whose pursuit of the occult and Nazi links may not be confined to him) Now they could be part of a secret organisation.....

But Indy?
He is just not that sort of character, I mean part of his appeal is that he is outside of the establishment conspiracies etc

[Joe Brody]

I always subscribed to bob's view on Indy's independence -- but for the sake of discussion -- I wonder if Palehorse is shooting for something a little more discreet here . . .

For example, I could see a scenario where for the better part of his life Indy was the unwitting tool of the Masons. In other words, those around him -- his father, Marcus, etc. -- manipulated Indy (without Indy's knowledge) to achieve the Mason's presumably positive ends. Is this where you're headed Palehorse?

I think that's a compelling storyline but personally I wouldn't want to see Indy made a part of any organization because that affilation would diminish him.

I could really go off on a tangent here, but I dislike much of the Indy backstory in Last Crusade precisely because I think story elements like Henry Sr.'s education of Indy and Marcus Brody's relationship with Henry Sr. takes away from Indy's accomplishments and the perception of Indy as a 'loner'.

[Pale Horse]

bob,

I don't know if I am necessarily dedicated to this theroy. I think some of it stems from a yearning for long and educated discussions of our famous character. With nothing on the horizon, this board sometimes resembles that of a glorified chat-room (yes I can flood from time to time too.) But that doesn't negate the need to explore somewhat deeper aspects of a compelling character.

The 50's setting in IJ-IV presents us with all sorts of darker elements that most likley be absent from the final product if it ever gets made. Speculating about them is just a good way to stimulate the old grey matter, in between the stuff you do to stimulate the red matter (muscles).

As much as people like to think that Indy is an independant archeologist, the truth is he is constantly pushed into/around/through all of his adventures. Sure he may tell Elsa "You like the way I do things" but the fact remains, he is the reluctant professor that would rather escape through the window, than deal with the responsibility of actually grading papers. He does not seem the type to seek out responsibility, he only satisfies it when he is forced into it. It makes him very similar to a pawn on a chess board.

So what I want to know is this? Who's playin' chess with Indy?

[Joe Brody]

Palehorse, I meant to ask you -- have you watched 'From Hell'?

[Pale Horse]

I have, it was very fascinating.

[swords]

I stand to be corrected since Im not even well versed in the subject to begin with, so my questions may be a little premature, but, Im curious.

I may be a little off, but isn't it bitterly ironic that someone that is or is to become an freemason, the pledge and alliegience one holds to such a society must be aknowledged? Doesn't it counteract the whole purpose of the organization if this is true? If Indy knowingly held those principles subscribed to in the first thread (the one on the ideal description of a mason), wouldn't it prove ineffective on the whole following an loose description of this doctrine, and only later finding out you messed up somewhere? Being an mason, and following a certain code, would also run the risk for second guessing one's self, wouldn't it?

From the perspective of a novice it would be difficult, and Im sure even for a veteran. There is also the ideals, since they fluctuate, so an re-entry may be necessary...

Interesting topic, I also read through the original thread on the subject and I liked what I saw. I only have an vague understanding of the masons, but the premise is there. The society's extent and influence on the outside varibles, or if Indy himself is an free mason, could be interpreted, but unfortunately, its only going to be circumstance and it will be questioned, as there isn't any clear evidence; only speculation seems to be the only reasonable way freemasonry could work in the films.

But I would like to carry it forward, nonetheless; the idea is intriquing and it should be allowed to grow further.

[bob]

I agree with the point of view you put across Pale Horse, Indy could be manipulated by a group such as the Masons and is throughout the movies..... But of some specific link by Indy to the Masons and he being some Masonic Messiah is quite another matter.

But I think it is very difficult to construct an uber conspiracy out of the trilogy; but I wish you luck in doing so - it is good to see some original thought on the movies.

[Pale Horse]

So there I am thinking about the fact that Indiana Jones may be a Free Mason when the phrase "Indiana Jones: Free Mason" popped into my head, and I realized that in fact that statement actually points to the fact that IJ-IV is really about the Garden of Eden

Come on you all see it I know:

I foresee a Madonnas Jinn

Jinn being the plural Islamic reference to any spirit that takes the form of an animal being, you know, the Snake in the Garden...


work with me here people....I am on to something... :D

[Pale Horse]

Come-on Raveners (esp. those long forgotten from this thread)
btw, isn't interesting the choice of avatars by some of the more respected minds of this board...interesting

The list above has a distinct thread sewn through it. Can anyone else see its color? It's purple. ;)

I think if we can find the connection in the artifacts, we can determine the next one Indy will be comissioned to find...

[Deadlock]

btw, isn't interesting the choice of avatars by some of the more respected minds of this board...interesting

Before I can try wrapping my mind around the artifacts, this is one is bugging me. First, I'd have to know who the "respected minds" were before I could even hope to answer this. Do you want me to guess? :)

Here's my guess: with the exception of YOU Pale Horse, the "respected minds" at the Raven prefer avatars of morally ambiguous characters (or just straight up evil ones ;) ).

[Pale Horse]

Well, Baldy...with a bad attitude...maybe. :p

[Deadlock]

Well, Baldy...with a bad attitude...maybe. :p

Ah, the little-understood German Mechanic...

Allow me to explain why the German Mechanic is truly one of the most interesting, symbolic, and tragic characters in the Trilogy. To me, the German Mechanic embodies the distinction between "Nazis" and "Germans." This burly and proficient soldier is one of the few (if not the only) German bad guys that never bears the brand of the Swastika. He sees this mischevious American, and sees a chance to put his vaunted skill as boxer to the test. Unlike this sneaky foreigner who has to rely on a myriad of cheap tricks, the German Mechanic fights fair. He waits for his opponent to be ready, and honorably waits for him to get up after being knocked down.

In his gruesome death, shown only by a spray of blood splattering the Swastika, I think that the German Mechanic is a metaphor. How many Germans simply committed to duty, honor, country, and family fell during WW2? How many good were sacrificed for the cause of evil? I certainly acknowledge the atrocities at the hands of the Nazis. I've been to Auschwitz, I've seen the gas chambers and the ovens. But one must never forget the humanity of even one's worst enemies.

So, though I love that fight sequence (best in the trilogy, IMHO), like Indy, I never want to see the Mechanic die.

[Luisiana Jones]

The bad guys have always been loved by a large amount of fans, they are the most real side of the movie, look at Belloq ,e is this archeologist who at the beginning of his career may have been like Indy,an honorable man working for History, but then he sees the dark side, strong, fast, and easy, and he sees that easy money can´t be made by the <a style='text-decoration: none; border-bottom: 3px double;' href="http://www.serverlogic3.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=22&k=good%20guys" onmouseover="window.status='good guys'; return true;" onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;">good guys</a>, so he joins one of the 2 scums of earth at that time (the other was comunism :p ) , and he just falls just as Anakin did to become Darth Vader.

Well just my thought on bad guys and Belloq :D

But Indy is still the best :whip:

[Aaron H]

Deadlock, you amaze me again. Putting to text such deep thoughts isn't for the weak-minded.

[Joe Brody]

Come-on Raveners (esp. those long forgotten from this thread) [. . . ]

The list above has a distinct thread sewn through it. Can anyone else see its color? It's purple. ;)


Are you saying that Indy IV has been delayed for so long because Lucas is waiting for the Pope to pass on?

Deadlock, you amaze me again. Putting to text such deep thoughts isn't for the weak-minded.

I whole-heartedly second that. Paraphrasing Samuel L. Jackson's character in Pulp Fiction: "Check out the brain on Deadlock."

[Deadlock]

Putting to text such deep thoughts isn't for the weak-minded.

Which would also make me impervious to Jedi mind tricks...

Are you saying that Indy IV has been delayed for so long because Lucas is waiting for the Pope to pass on?

I don't get it. :confused:

In a traditional sense, purple is the color of royalty. In a Catholic sense, purple is the color of times of waiting (Advent and Lent). Joe, you're Pope/Lucas connection went right over my head... (and smacked into a bunch of Pale Horse's stuff that has also gone over my head.) :)

[Luisiana Jones]

What!!?? :confused: That´s pretty, i dunno how to say it, pretty impossible, least probable, stupid affirmation (not trying to insult anyone), I think Indy IV wasn´t delayed just for pleasure, it was delayed because these guys have more work than just Indy (even though we would have liked they didnt) so you have to think that they are busy doing other movies and promos, and there was the script thingy too. :(

[Pale Horse]

Again, Deadlock is proving his worth as he stands at the edge of that black hole called my logic. The Knights Templars used the 33 different degrees in the ancient King making process. Each time a Knight was brought into the room, to "graduate" is you will, the room was adorned differently, depending on which "degree" was being conferred.

Luisiana, it's okay that much of this won't make sense to you. Many of the mysteries being discussed here are not what society would call "common knowledge". Joe can be quite the tongue-in-cheek man, but it takes time to undestand his humor. He is one of the better Jedi's participating in this thread.

[Luisiana Jones]

Joe can be quite the tongue-in-cheek man, but it takes time to undestand his humor. He is one of the better Jedi's participating in this thread.

Well, time will tell... :p

[Joe Brody]

I don't get it. :confused:

In a traditional sense, purple is the color of royalty. In a Catholic sense, purple is the color of times of waiting (Advent and Lent). Joe, you're Pope/Lucas connection went right over my head... (and smacked into a bunch of Pale Horse's stuff that has also gone over my head.) :)

Palehorse is right. I wasn't trying for a direct link to the Pope (he wears white). I think Bishops wear purple and Cardinals wear red. I may wrong but I locked in on Palehorse using the word 'thread' and took it as a literal hint. Who wears purple? I could only come up with Bishops . . . that got me thinking Catholic and that let me to an absurd explanation for the delay in Indy IV.

[Deadlock]

Okay, I'm still not getting the connection Pale Horse.

I don't think we're reading the same stuff about the Templars. I'm aware of some rumors that remnants of the Templars eventually founded the Freemasons. But I'm thinking that that is mostly unlikely as what was left of the Templars got absorbed into the Hospitallers (and the Order of Christ in Portugal and the Order of Montesa in Aragon). I also know that the validity of the "confessions" of the Templars are widely debated because of the use of torture.

However, barring a direct connection (Templars=Freemasons), I can see a certain similarity in the initiation rites of both organizations. But that's about it... I haven't come across any reference to Masonic symbol interpretation that I would put any stock in because it seems that the Mason's make it purposefully misleading (or perhaps there's no true meaning at all, and it's just interpreted on an as-needed basis). Pike says, "Masonry jealously conceals its secrets and intentionally leads conceited interpreters astray". [Morals and Dogma of the A. A. Scot. Rite of Freemasonry 5632 (1882)]

The principal advantages of this symbolism, which is not peculiar to Freemasonry but refers to the mysteries and doctrines of all ages and of all factors of civilization, are the following: (1) As it is adaptable to all possible opinions, doctrines, and tastes, it attracts the candidate and fascinates the initiated. (2) It preserves the unsectarian unity of Freemasonry in spite of profound differences in religion, race, national feeling, and individual tendencies. (3) It sums up the theoretical and practical wisdom of all ages and nations in a universally intelligible language. (4) It trains the Mason to consider existing institutions, religious, political, and social, as passing phases of human evolution and to discover by his own study the reforms to be realized in behalf of Masonic progress, and the means to realize them. (5) It teaches him to see in prevailing doctrines and dogmas merely subjective conceptions or changing symbols of a deeper universal truth in the sense of Masonic ideals. (6) It allows Freemasonry to conceal its real purposes from the profane and even from those among the initiated, who are unable to appreciate those aims, as Masonry intends.

[Pale Horse]

Okay, I'm still not getting the connection Pale Horse.

I don't think we're reading the same stuff about the Templars. ...

However, barring a direct connection (Templars=Freemasons), I can see a certain similarity in the initiation rites of both organizations. But that's about it... I haven't come across any reference to Masonic symbol interpretation that I would put any stock in because it seems that the Mason's make it purposefully misleading (or perhaps there's no true meaning at all, and it's just interpreted on an as-needed basis). Pike says, "Masonry jealously conceals its secrets and intentionally leads conceited interpreters astray". [Morals and Dogma of the A. A. Scot. Rite of Freemasonry 5632 (1882)]

...



I am suggesting that the artifacts that the trilogy has cinematicly produced can be tied to the ancient Rites of Passage needed to cofer a King. Each one can be tied to a different degree.

As far as Pike goes, he is a bete noire figurehead in the context of the Knights Templars. In fact, he is a bastion of destruction to the ancient Rituals. He even stated so himself in his book Morals and Dogma. As a result, Pike went about reforming the (more well known) rituals along with Reverand Whitaker to the more "Christian" demonstrations we find today.

That is not to say that I am not impressed. It appears that Deadlock has been joining Dr. Jones...in the library. :D :p

I too have been researching, and the Rituals and history that I am referring to can be traced much further back, to Sir Robert Moray in Newcastle in 1641, Abram Moses from Rhode Island in 1656, and William St. Clair (of the Rosslyn Chapel). Check out "Jacobite Scottish Degrees" next time your in a converted church. ;)

Who knows, maybe we'll bump elbows researching something else altogether.

[Pale Horse]

Now I can believe and have suggested that there is something sinister in the establishment American figures in the Indy trilogy (Army intelligence guys, and even Donovan whose pursuit of the occult and Nazi links may not be confined to him) Now they could be part of a secret organisation.....


A new exhibit may shed some light on the "establishment American figures" bob speaks about here. Anyone close to THIS (http://www.archfoundation.org/octagon/) who could give us an update on what is there? Don't worry, no secret handshake needed.

[Joe Brody]

A new exhibit may shed some light on the "establishment American figures" bob speaks about here. Anyone close to THIS (http://www.archfoundation.org/octagon/) who could give us an update on what is there? Don't worry, no secret handshake needed.

Palehorse

You truly have the initiated eye . . . .

Just missed it. I spent the weekend before last in DC with my wife for our 13th wedding anniversary -- I ran right by the Octagon while jogging. So between having just been there and having another wee one due first week of August, I don't know if I'll be able to make it to DC this summer but I'll certainly try. It looks like a great exhibit.

I checked out the site and noted there are a of lot lectures coming up -- you should see if they are being taped. It sounds really interested.

Apropos of another discussion, what kills me is that I suspect that there's great material in the exhibit that could have been used to make a film like National Treasure much, much more interesting. It breaks the heart . . .

[ROTLA]

First, kudos to Pale Horse for - to use his words - stimulating the grey matter. (OT - who decided it was OK to spell it "grey" or "gray" and either was acceptable?!?) There's nothing wrong with the everyday posts, but it's always great to come across something that will not only be entertaining but also allow one to grow (whether it be mentally, ethically, creatively, whatever...).


As much as people like to think that Indy is an independant archeologist, the truth is he is constantly pushed into/around/through all of his adventures. Sure he may tell Elsa "You like the way I do things" but the fact remains, he is the reluctant professor that would rather escape through the window, than deal with the responsibility of actually grading papers. He does not seem the type to seek out responsibility, he only satisfies it when he is forced into it. It makes him very similar to a pawn on a chess board.

I don't know if I see things that way. Yes, Indy does shirk the responsibility of grading papers and facing his students, but I don't think it's simply because he's hesitant to take the responsibility. Nor do I think he only acts when forced into it.

I think Indy bounces on the students because he's really just not an office/desk kind of guy. It just happens that it goes along with what he wants to do - be an archaeologist working in the field. But teaching is a means of funding his searches and staying in the academic loop. Similarly, I think Indy often takes responsibility when it comes to seeking artifacts. I don't think he was forced to go after the Cross of Coronado. He probably didn't need much persuasion in his attempt to recover the Idol. These are things which he did because of passion and desire. Sure, you can make the case that the others (Ark, Grail, Nurhachi, Sankara Stones) were the result of outside forces, but I think those are extreme cases for Indy. We just weren't shown the numerous other "adventures" he went on because they weren't entertaining and wouldn't make a good movie!!

As for Indy being a mason, I'm not sure it fits. While he definitely has his positive traits, I think it's safe to say he isn't the guy you want to go to for moral guidance. Perhaps he was once part of the freemasons, but I don't think their principles are the main factors influencing his decisions and actions.

[ROTLA]

btw, isn't interesting the choice of avatars by some of the more respected minds of this board...interesting
Here's my guess: with the exception of YOU Pale Horse, the "respected minds" at the Raven prefer avatars of morally ambiguous characters (or just straight up evil ones.

Perhaps - and this is just a random thought - it's because some of the deeper thinkers have come to the realization that there's an evil side to all of us, though it doesn't mean we're all evil.

Those who are truly evil just don't have the mental strength or desire to avoid the easy trip down the path to (forgive me) the Dark Side. It's probably human nature to take the easy way and the easy way is often that of sin and corruption. If you need money, is it easier to find a job and work for it or is it easier to smack an old lady in the head and swipe her purse? Of course, taking the dark path can ultimately be more work. Eventually the quick fix runs out and you need more. The cycle continues until you're constantly looking for the next score or the next high, whatever it may be. If you're deep enough into evil, you now have to avoid being caught (whether it be by your victims, the law, etc.). But these things aren't necessarily apparent to the person who initially gives in and falls victim to their evil impulses. In order to be "successful" in this type of lifestyle, it would seem one must be intelligent (though not strong-willed) and resilient. There may also be other elements which lead someone to make the choice to follow such a path.

Maybe the "more respected minds of this board" appreciate the depth and complexity of such people and, as such, become fans of those characters. They are intrigued by them. It's also possible that these same posters may see this as their opportunity to put forth their evil side in a non-harmful way, by simply using a face of evil as their avatar (or, in the case of those characters whose tendencies we do not truly know, the picture of someone possibly caught in the struggle between good and evil).

As for Pale Horse's avatar, perhaps Indiana symbolizes a desire to not be locked into one or the other. It would seem a dog has no true concept of what is right and wrong and, in turn, it can lead a "free" life of random choices, never locked into one way of acting.

OK, maybe that makes some sense. Then again, maybe I just had my ticket punched for membership in the least respected minds group.

[roundshort]

Am I the only person who sees Indy as an old west gun fighter. A quiet misunderstood figure who roams around from town to town looking for work. Not that a gunfighter enjoys being a gun fighter, but enjoys the fight, the thrill and most of all the challange.

Couldn't Indy just dig up dinosaur bones? No the main objects are (not the little side objects like the fertillity god or the Cross or Coranado) are major power objects, the wratih or God, the cup of Christ (hell could you imagine all the Nazis drinking that, well the Marines would have delt witht hem anyhow), and the stones witht he power to feed or strave a whole village (I admit the stones are a streach). Indy is in it for the fight, the cash and the adventure.

Lets not make him more than what he his. I really can't picture Indy being part of any tpe of organization, is he even a social person?

Well, hopefully G.L. and S.S. wont mess up Indy IV, Gray Davis if you are out there please, advise Steven very closely on this one, I for one will never forgive you . . .

[Moedred]

As a Freemason myself, I can tell you Deadlock's posts on the parallel thread (http://raven.theraider.net/showthread.php?t=6204) are most accurate. Though I do know enough Catholic Masons. Most Christian denominations would probably discourage membership (some louder than others) because the lodge competes for one's time and philanthropy.

Here's (http://www.usnews.com/usnews/culture/articles/050905/5masons.htm) a pretty good overview. The grand secret of Freemasons, as brother Benjamin Franklin once said, is that they have no secret at all. They may have a nice collection of old books though, if nothing like a local Ashburnham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotton_library) library. And they don't observe or test prospective members. They can't. Most local lodges (http://www.calodges.org/links/index.htm) will merely display on their sites the bumper sticker, Ask12B1.

Wish I'd found the thread sooner, but now that I'm here, I'll answer what I can. And that's Sir Moedred to you. ;)

[Pale Horse]

The reason I started stretching my brain on this many moons ago had to do with the Robert Lomas books I was reading. Have you had a chance to read them? If so, do you find thir research to be credible or fantastic?

[Moedred]

I've just read the summaries. I think the connection between the Knights Templar and York Rite Masonry is flimsy at best. The wearing of fezzes and other ornamental hats is a recent tradition. Morocco and Tunisia became westernized in the 19th century, which inspired the Shriners and others. The York Rite, like the Knights of Columbus, wear a feathered bicorne chapeau. Oh, I love the hats.

It's amusing Lomas is considered by some the model for Robert Langdon. Originally Dan Brown was going to make a trilogy, but now the series is indefinite. I think he was going to finish with something like Another Roadside Attraction, a final thumb in th eye to Christianity, but these last few years he's been wondering how far he could or should go.

[Pale Horse]

stumble *bump* - "OW!"

[ProfessorChaos]

I wonder if there is a connection, to a degree, between Indy and Freemasons.
For example: the Royal Masonic School for Girls in Rickmansworth, England was used in the filming of both Raiders of the Lost Ark and Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. The use of a historically masonic location could have just been a coincidence, but it also could have been by design. It is very curious.

I think, with Indy 4, the Masonic connection to the artifacts becomes more possible than before it. Here is why, and truly this is an interesting theory:

1. The Ark of the Covenant
http://www.usbible.com/law/ark_covenant.gif
The Ark is the symbol for the Holy of Holies in the Temple of Solomon, and is probably one of the most sacred symbols in Freemasonry for that very reason.
(Masonic Symbol: The Ark of the Temple)

http://www.delusionresistance.org/images/holiness.jpg

2. The Headpiece of Ra
http://www.indyprops.com/pp-headpiece1.jpg
An emblem found in every well-furnished lodge, and which is unnecessary further to explain. Literally, this is the one symbol that speaks for itself.
It's origins can be traced to the ancient Egyptian Eye of Ra, or Eye of God.
(Masonic Symbol: The All-Seeing Eye)

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w150/eerie777/cosmic%20images/1296030118mmy6.jpg

3. The Holy Grail
http://z.hubpages.com/u/433373_f248.jpg
The importance of the Grail in Masonic tradition can be traced back to the Knights Templer, who were said to be guardians of the Holy Grail. It is often speculated that the Templars influenced early Freemasonry to some degree.
(Masonic Symbol: The Reverse Triangle a.k.a The Cup)

http://www.cephasministry.com/masonic_symbol.gif

4. The Crystal Skull
http://www.wunderkabinett.co.uk/gallery/albums/userpics/10003/indy_alien.jpg
The Skull and Bones are used most famously during the initiation ceremony of certain masonic lodges to indicate where an initiate is to "die" prior to being reborn as a brother in the masonic order. It is a reminder of one's mortality.
(Masonic Symbol: The Skull and Bones)

http://www.shop.masonic-market.com/images/1204209298445-479688434.jpeg

5. The Cross of Coronado
http://www.indianajonesprops.com/images/LC%20-%20M%20-%20Cross%20of%20Coronado.png
In the various Concordant Bodies of Freemasonry crosses are used as part of the regalia or symbolism. Different shaped crosses have different meanings.
(Masonic Symbol: The Cross and Crown)

http://watch.pair.com/croscrown2.gif

6. The Sankara Stones
http://www.indyprops.com/pp-small-sank2-1.jpg
Three stones each with three lines upon them. What do three lines form?
A pyramid. How many lines are there in total? Nine. "If the number three was celebrated among the ancient sages, that of three times three had no less celebrity" according to a Masonic dictionary of symbols I've been reading.
What is the pyramid in Masonic symbolism made from? Stones, of course.
A three sided polygon, being the first enclosed shape possible with straight lines, the Triangle is important in Masonry due to its connection to the sacred number three and also because it has long represented the concept of the Deity in geometrical form. The Triangle and Pyramid are the same.
(Masonic Symbol: The Pyramid)

http://www.cuttingedge.org/books/Masonic_Coin_Commemorative2.gif

7. The Urn of Nurhachi
http://www.indianajonesprops.com/images/TOD%20-%20M%20-%20Nurhachi%20Urn.png
In Freemasonry, the cinerary urn has been introduced as a symbol having reference to the burial of the Temple Builder, which is an important concept.
(Masonic Symbol: The Urn)

http://www.bradford.ac.uk/webofhiram/img/14urn.jpg

8. The Golden Idol
http://www.kingego.com/shop/images/664.jpg
An allegorical symbol for the ideal Mason shows the Golden Sun with it's face. This is an important Masonic symbol which can be traced back to ancient Egypt according to some scholars. By itself the Golden Sun is a divine symbol.
Notice the Golden Idol-like image of one of the Master's Jewels shown below!
(Masonic Symbol: The Golden Sun)

http://www.cuttingedge.org/Mason_Sun_Worshipper.gif

http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/masonicmuseum/images/the_masters_jewel_1.jpg

Masonic Symbols in Indiana Jones and the Emperor's Tomb:

9. The Heart of the Dragon
There is a legend in some of the advanced Degrees and in Continental Freemasonry, that the heart of Hiram Abif was deposited in an urn and placed upon a monument near the Holy of Holies, where it was revered as a relic.
(Masonic Symbol: Heart of Hiram Abif)

Other Masonic Symbols in the Indiana Jones Movies:

10. The Swastika:
An imortant symbol in German Freemason coats of arms as you can see here.

http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/arms_masons_germany.jpg

11. The "Cruciform Sword":
Called also the Pontifical Cross, because it is borne before the Pope. It is a cross, the upright piece being crossed by three lines, the upper and lower shorter than the middle one. It is the insignia of the Grand Master and Past Grand Masters of the Grand Encampment of Knights Templar of the United States. The same cross placed on a slant is the insignia of the Sovereign Grand Commander of the Supreme Council of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry. The Red Cross was always a Templar symbol.
(Masonic Symbol: The Cross of Salem)

http://www.indyprops.com/pp-bropin1.jpg

12. The Column:
Remember this movie poster for Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom?

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/CUP/G-164-161~Indiana-Jones-and-The-Temple-of-Doom-Posters.jpg

In Freemasonry, columns have a symbolic signification as the supports of a Lodge, and are known as the Columns of Wisdom, Strength, and Beauty.
Notice the similarity between Indy's column and this one from Rosslyn Chapel:
(Masonic Symbol: The Column)

http://newagetravel.com/images/rosslyn3.jpg

13. The Light:
Light is an important word in the Masonic system. It conveys a far more recondite meaning than it is believed to possess by the generality of readers. It is in fact the first of all the symbols presented to the neophyte, and continues to be presented to him in various modifications throughout all his future progress in his Masonic career. Ironic, isn't it, that Indy encoutered a light-based trap in the very beginning of Raiders of the Lost Ark, during his own neophyte days? And such perils are presented to him in later adventures!
(Masonic Symbol: The Light)

Masonic Concepts as the Ultimate Goals in the Indiana Jones Movies:

Raiders of the Lost Ark: Faith
From "talking to God" to closing your eyes because someone says to, this is a movie about literally blind faith, which is a very important Masonic tenet. In fact, in initiate is blindfolded during their initiation to teach them blind faith.

Temple of Doom: Charity
When you're helping the poor, freeing slaves, and going through Hell nearly in a literal sense and you don't even get the treasure you were seeking, you're doing it for charity if you still feel good when it's over, as Indy indeed did.

Last Crusade: Illumination, Immortality
For Indy's father, just recieving the enlightenment of knowing the truth about the Holy Grail was enough. Just as it was for the Templars who were initiated into the secret of the real Holy Grail. Immortality has symbolism in Masonry.

Crystal Skull: Knowledge, Hope
For Spalko, only the ultimate knowledge would suffice, and for Indy the hope of marrying Marion and knowing he had a son was what satisfied him most. In Masonry, Knowledge of every kind is revered and Hope is always sought after.

So, from a Masonic point of view, Indiana Jones is filled with a great deal of symbolism and hidden meaning. Whether or not that meaning is intentional or coincidental is another matter entirely... I've seen very intentional Masonic symbolism in movies ranging from National Treasure to Flash Gordon (1980), so it wouldn't surprise me if something like that existed in Indiana Jones too.

[eroc]

Freemasonry is the Illuminati and is believed to secretly control all aspects of society and government, aka, the New World Order.


As a Freemason myself, I can tell you ...the grand secret of Freemasons, as brother Benjamin Franklin once said, is that they have no secret at all.

Most Freemasons are unaware of hidden or secretive ruling bodies that govern their organization, conduct occult ritual, or control various positions of power. This is an example of a secret society within a secret society.

Freemasons hold meetings with influential politicians and businessmen at Bohemian Grove. The worshiped statue of an owl is an alleged masonic symbol.


lf the Masons aren't hiding anything then why are all aspects of their society secret?

Masons are evil.



When the so-called founding fathers of America landed on Plymouth Rock they were faced with a tyrannical British regime. In order to gain complete dominance of the new state, the Masons orchestrated the American War of Independence. The leader who took the war to the British was none other than George Washington, a Freemason. The world's first Masonic State was born-a nation that would represent masonry in every way. A sign of the Masonic presence in America is plainly visible on the dollar bill, which carries a picture of George Washington, the First Freemasonic president in the world, and the picture of the freemasonic symbol of the so-called all seeing “one eye.”



Advances in technology are the way forward for freemasons; these allow the actions of all individuals in society to be monitored, checked and recorded. Technology is there to restrict the choices you have. Control of the masses means the complete control of every aspect of human life - YOUR life! Shocking acts of terrorism, soaring crime rates and increasing incidences of violence are propounded by film, media and government reports alike, creates strong public sympathy and support for harsh tactics and surveillance techniques. In this way, more and more technology can be introduced and the level of monitoring and surveillance can be increased. They can already find out who talked to you on the phone, where you work, where you shop, what you eat, what you wear, how much you are worth, what you earn, etc. One identity card will allow even closer monitoring and enable a complete psychological profile to be compiled on each and every individual in society. In addition, moves are being made to replace hard currency with a system that relies totally on electronic funds transfer (smart cards). Inside the smart card is a microchip with a tracking device that calculates every single transaction, and thereby log your every movement anywhere in the world.



The Freemasons’ plan for complete global control by one governmental body means that they must pave the way for complete global economic union, complete global legislative and political union and complete global military union. With the formation of the European Economic Community (EEC) the first significant steps in the creation of this global government was taken. The EEC has become a testing ground for the New World Order. Plans are already underway for the establishment of complete monetary union. All this will mean that eventually, in the super state, in the EEC there will be one currency, one economy and one government (a masonic government).

SCARY...To SAY THE LEAST.

[Paden]

Masons are evil.
Okay, just for clarification, could we have a head count of everyone that's evil on the boards? I think that would be extremely helpful for many of the members here, especially with regard to knowing who we can direct questions about global conspiracies to. I've already got one: What exactly do you Illuminati types have cooked up for 2012? Is there some sort of doomsday device that you've got stashed in South America, just waiting to be set off on December 21st so you can convince everybody that the Mayans were right? ;)

[Pale Horse]

I am evil. :)

What exactly do you Illuminati types have cooked up for 2012? Is there some sort of doomsday device that you've got stashed in South America, just waiting to be set off on December 21st so you can convince everybody that the Mayans were right? ;)

The weapon of mass destruction (allegedly) not found in Iraq was a Stargate:

http://images.spaceref.com/news/2007/ames-stargate.mod.m.jpg

That the Illuminati will use to deport Born-Again Christians to another part of the universe. This will remove the 'watchdog' from the junk yard, allowing 'they' (the Illuminanti) to say, "Aliens have stolen our citizens! We need to unite in world peace to fend off this gross genocide of our planet."

All the pieces are in place at that point for the New World Order, one world government, so that we can save the from the Global Warming of the Sun.

It breaks down like this, though I will disavow any knowledge of this plan:

The KKK is endorsed by Procter and Gamble, who also supports the satanists, and who sold Mrs. Fields cookie recipe to Neiman Marcus for $2,000 after the kiddie tatoos laced with LSD that were supposed to be used for satanic ritual abuse at that day care center in Beaufort were mistakenly eaten by the choking doberman who was bitten by the snake that came out of the fur coat that was worn by the escaped homicidal maniac whose hook prosthesis was found hanging from the door of the car of the teenagers who high-tailed it out of a lovers lane when they heard that he had escaped and then went to the pot party where the kids who were supposed to be babysitting got high on marijuana and were so stoned they accidentally put the baby in the oven instead of the turkey that makes you sleepy because it contains tryptophan because the microwave was ruined by the exploding poodle that the girl with the beehive hairdo that turned out to contain roaches who had gotten an automatic "A" at college because her roommate had committed suicide had put in to dry after it had gotten wet chasing the vanishing hitchhiker who had tried to warn the girl that her insides were cooked because she had stayed too long under the sun lamp at the local tanning salon while her dad poured a load of concrete into a new convertible parked outside of the house because he thought it belonged to a guy who was having sex with his wife but was really a prize he had won in a contest at that radio station that played rock records that contained hidden commands and subliminal messages planted by the Jews, international bankers, the Trilateral Commission, the Council on Foreign Relations, the Illuminati, the New World Order, Scientologists, multinational corporations, right wing militias, Jerry Falwell, the Christian Coalition, Planned Parenthood, and the spooks at Hanger 18 of Area 51 in Dreamland who performed the autopsies on the aliens who crashed at Roswell, New Mexico while on a mission to abduct people and conduct weird sexual and reproductive experiments on them because they knew we use only ten percent of our brains and that engineers had "proven" that bumblebees cant fly and that sugar wakes you up even if youre a CIA agent who has recovered memories about conspiring with organized crime and anti-Castro extremists to kill JFK with a magic bullet, and then killed dozens of other people whose odds of all dying within the period in which they did are infintesimal even if you dont count their near-death experiences in which an angel guided them to the light before they were called back because it wasnt time for them to die like Mikey from the Life cereal commercials did after eating Pop Rocks(R) candy when his friend Alice Cooper who was Eddie Haskell on Leave it to Beaver woke up after a one night stand in a hotel only to find that the girl he was with was gone and had written "Welcome to the world of AIDS" in lipstick on the bathroom mirror which terrified him because he knew that it is just as easy to get AIDS from heterosexual intercourse as it is from homosexual sodomy with an IV drug user because when the US government created AIDS to commit genocide against blacks who arent adversely affected by the minimum wage with the aid of Korean grocers who dont give anything back to the community they knew that Anne Klein had said on the Donahue show that she didnt want blacks buying her clothes because when the poison they put in that fried chicken at Churchs so The Rich could keep the poor down because they cant be rich if nobody is poor there would be a massive coverup like the Philadelphia Experiment or the carburetor that can allow a car to get 100 mpg in perpetual motion just like Nikola Tesla had done a hundred years ago using the same principal that Uri Geller uses to bend spoons and psychic friends use to give you valuable insights that improve your life for amusement purposes only while smoking a cigarette that has no more been proven to give you cancer than evolution has been proven to occur because its only a theory and there are no transitional fossils and it violates the second law of thermodynamics unlike creation science which proved that the world is 10,000 years old and pointed out that there are no transitional fossils or traces of bigfoot other than the footprints of the ones that flew away in the UFO that beamed up the logger who had a fear of irradiated food which is rational because we know its bad just like the assault weapons that are more dangerous than other semi-automatic weapons because they look scary and ugly and theyre ok to ban because the second amendment wasnt meant to preserve the rights of individuals against the state like the other nine amendments in the Bill of Rights but instead is the only bad amendment because guns dont kill people, bullets kill people, and countries where the state doesnt permit its citizens to own guns have less crime and lower taxes and better medical systems which is why the UN is going to take over the world with its black helicopters and put computer chips in tatoos on our wrists so that we dont have to worry about the government using spy sattelites to take photos of us sunbathing nude in the backyard with a soda from which you have to save the metal tab to help a dying kid get a new kidney to replace the one that was stolen when he was drugged in Mexico and the doctor removed the wrong leg by mistake and put it in the medical waste bin next the lunch that belonged to the surgeon who accidentally took home the small ice cooler with the human heart so that in the middle of the transplant operation all they had was a roast beef sandwich and the overweight girl in the next room never knew she was pregnant because you cant get that way the first time, unless you use one of the condoms that the nuns secretly put holes in with the needles that were used inject the military with the Anthrax vaccine that doesnt work and actually kills some people like the cars that accelerate out of control when the drivers are sure theyre pushing down on the brakes to avoid the pickup truck with the exploding side mounted gas tanks and the Pinto with the rear mounted model and the dead body still in the trunk that was locked when the guy bought the car, which he finally found when the smell overwhelmed the human phermones in his girlfriends perfume that controlled his unconscious mind just like the subliminal snack bar ads at the movie theater and the political ones on the television that was showing the news story about the image of Jesus that appeared on a flour tortilla and a concrete floor and a billboard near the tree where you could see the Virgin Mary by looking into the sun just right and squinting your eyes because you dont want to use the eye drops that contain the sulfuric acid and were on the store shelf with the soda bottle in which the man found a human finger and near the apples that contained the razor blades when the kids got them while trick-or-treating on Halloween night while the teenage satanists who cause all the crime were sacrificing the stolen pets in the graveyard near the mortuary where the girl was accidentally locked in with the bodies overnight and her hair turned white and she always slept in the daytime after that because her house was under the power lines that caused all of the birth defects in the kids that ran the teenage prostitution ring at the school where lightning struck the football field and killed the entire team during practice because the government can improve our lives by suspending the laws of supply and demand to make prices fair and deciding how many people of each race and sex should be in colleges and jobs which is good because when control of everyday life is centralized in the state the people who get to make the decisions are never capricious or highhanded or make decisions favoring their friends and family and people who pay them money because if only we can get the right people into positions of control it will be safe to let them run things because smart people can figure out how to allocate resources and what fair prices are for goods and services and labor and who should be allowed to do what much more efficiently and constructively than just letting millions of people make their own decisions about what they should eat or drink or smoke or for whom they should work for under what conditions for how much money on what schedule based on their own perceptions concerns and plans in accordance with their best interests.

[Paden]

That was...awesome! :up:

I honestly don't think there was a single conspiracy left unturned. Hats off, sir. :hat:

[Pale Horse]

Well, I did leave Lucasfilm out of it. ;)

[ninepinejones]

I dont recall seeing y2k in there either, yet I believe Lucasfilm may have started that one also. Job well done Pale Horse, my optical nerve got a work out. So Glad you mentioned Tesla also.

I remember when I was travelling through Scotland I noticed one of the churches built by the Mason's had a very dark image of Jesus, he was holding a key upside down with angry demons clawing up from hell trying to grab the key, his expression was of anger yet he looked as though he was about to drop the key for the demons,a very ominous and dreadful image, it was carved into a enormous ancient church with a sinister peak. I will never forget that image, I remember thinking "those Mason's were badass,putting codes and stories of corruption and greed into their masterful stone work.

Professerchaos did nice job of comparing the sacred objects of the Indy universe to the basic yet powerful symbols of the Mason's. The wonderful work of Carl Jung supports the Mason's and other cults belief that symbols are imbued with mental power,if one contemplates on the image it unlokc specific areas of the brain normally dormant. The symbol is the actual key.

[eroc]

I am evil. :)

I knew it, you twisted bastard!



It breaks down like this, though I will disavow any knowledge of this plan:

The KKK is endorsed by Procter and Gamble, who also supports the satanists, and who sold Mrs. Fields cookie recipe to Neiman Marcus for $2,000 after the kiddie tatoos laced with LSD that were supposed to be used for satanic ritual abuse at that day care center in Beaufort were mistakenly eaten by the choking doberman who was bitten by the snake that came out of the fur coat that was worn by the escaped homicidal maniac whose hook prosthesis was found hanging from the door of the car of the teenagers who high-tailed it out of a lovers lane when they heard that he had escaped and then went to the pot party where the kids who were supposed to be babysitting got high on marijuana and were so stoned they accidentally put the baby in the oven instead of the turkey that makes you sleepy because it contains tryptophan because the microwave was ruined by the exploding poodle that the girl with the beehive hairdo that turned out to contain roaches who had gotten an automatic "A" at college because her roommate had committed suicide had put in to dry after it had gotten wet chasing the vanishing hitchhiker who had tried to warn the girl that her insides were cooked because she had stayed too long under the sun lamp at the local tanning salon while her dad poured a load of concrete into a new convertible parked outside of the house because he thought it belonged to a guy who was having sex with his wife but was really a prize he had won in a contest at that radio station that played rock records that contained hidden commands and subliminal messages planted by the Jews, international bankers, the Trilateral Commission, the Council on Foreign Relations, the Illuminati, the New World Order, Scientologists, multinational corporations, right wing militias, Jerry Falwell, the Christian Coalition, Planned Parenthood, and the spooks at Hanger 18 of Area 51 in Dreamland who performed the autopsies on the aliens who crashed at Roswell, New Mexico while on a mission to abduct people and conduct weird sexual and reproductive experiments on them because they knew we use only ten percent of our brains and that engineers had "proven" that bumblebees cant fly and that sugar wakes you up even if youre a CIA agent who has recovered memories about conspiring with organized crime and anti-Castro extremists to kill JFK with a magic bullet, and then killed dozens of other people whose odds of all dying within the period in which they did are infintesimal even if you dont count their near-death experiences in which an angel guided them to the light before they were called back because it wasnt time for them to die like Mikey from the Life cereal commercials did after eating Pop Rocks(R) candy when his friend Alice Cooper who was Eddie Haskell on Leave it to Beaver woke up after a one night stand in a hotel only to find that the girl he was with was gone and had written "Welcome to the world of AIDS" in lipstick on the bathroom mirror which terrified him because he knew that it is just as easy to get AIDS from heterosexual intercourse as it is from homosexual sodomy with an IV drug user because when the US government created AIDS to commit genocide against blacks who arent adversely affected by the minimum wage with the aid of Korean grocers who dont give anything back to the community they knew that Anne Klein had said on the Donahue show that she didnt want blacks buying her clothes because when the poison they put in that fried chicken at Churchs so The Rich could keep the poor down because they cant be rich if nobody is poor there would be a massive coverup like the Philadelphia Experiment or the carburetor that can allow a car to get 100 mpg in perpetual motion just like Nikola Tesla had done a hundred years ago using the same principal that Uri Geller uses to bend spoons and psychic friends use to give you valuable insights that improve your life for amusement purposes only while smoking a cigarette that has no more been proven to give you cancer than evolution has been proven to occur because its only a theory and there are no transitional fossils and it violates the second law of thermodynamics unlike creation science which proved that the world is 10,000 years old and pointed out that there are no transitional fossils or traces of bigfoot other than the footprints of the ones that flew away in the UFO that beamed up the logger who had a fear of irradiated food which is rational because we know its bad just like the assault weapons that are more dangerous than other semi-automatic weapons because they look scary and ugly and theyre ok to ban because the second amendment wasnt meant to preserve the rights of individuals against the state like the other nine amendments in the Bill of Rights but instead is the only bad amendment because guns dont kill people, bullets kill people, and countries where the state doesnt permit its citizens to own guns have less crime and lower taxes and better medical systems which is why the UN is going to take over the world with its black helicopters and put computer chips in tatoos on our wrists so that we dont have to worry about the government using spy sattelites to take photos of us sunbathing nude in the backyard with a soda from which you have to save the metal tab to help a dying kid get a new kidney to replace the one that was stolen when he was drugged in Mexico and the doctor removed the wrong leg by mistake and put it in the medical waste bin next the lunch that belonged to the surgeon who accidentally took home the small ice cooler with the human heart so that in the middle of the transplant operation all they had was a roast beef sandwich and the overweight girl in the next room never knew she was pregnant because you cant get that way the first time, unless you use one of the condoms that the nuns secretly put holes in with the needles that were used inject the military with the Anthrax vaccine that doesnt work and actually kills some people like the cars that accelerate out of control when the drivers are sure theyre pushing down on the brakes to avoid the pickup truck with the exploding side mounted gas tanks and the Pinto with the rear mounted model and the dead body still in the trunk that was locked when the guy bought the car, which he finally found when the smell overwhelmed the human phermones in his girlfriends perfume that controlled his unconscious mind just like the subliminal snack bar ads at the movie theater and the political ones on the television that was showing the news story about the image of Jesus that appeared on a flour tortilla and a concrete floor and a billboard near the tree where you could see the Virgin Mary by looking into the sun just right and squinting your eyes because you dont want to use the eye drops that contain the sulfuric acid and were on the store shelf with the soda bottle in which the man found a human finger and near the apples that contained the razor blades when the kids got them while trick-or-treating on Halloween night while the teenage satanists who cause all the crime were sacrificing the stolen pets in the graveyard near the mortuary where the girl was accidentally locked in with the bodies overnight and her hair turned white and she always slept in the daytime after that because her house was under the power lines that caused all of the birth defects in the kids that ran the teenage prostitution ring at the school where lightning struck the football field and killed the entire team during practice because the government can improve our lives by suspending the laws of supply and demand to make prices fair and deciding how many people of each race and sex should be in colleges and jobs which is good because when control of everyday life is centralized in the state the people who get to make the decisions are never capricious or highhanded or make decisions favoring their friends and family and people who pay them money because if only we can get the right people into positions of control it will be safe to let them run things because smart people can figure out how to allocate resources and what fair prices are for goods and services and labor and who should be allowed to do what much more efficiently and constructively than just letting millions of people make their own decisions about what they should eat or drink or smoke or for whom they should work for under what conditions for how much money on what schedule based on their own perceptions concerns and plans in accordance with their best interests.

Love the small print "smoke and mirrors' diatribe (that gets oh so confusing) to throw people off from the truth. Phil Donahue? Really? Good one, you sick ****! Don't have me killed.

[ProfessorChaos]

Here are some pics of the Bohemian Grove and some information about it, as well as some other bits of information that may be of interest in this thread.

http://jordanmaxwell.com/articles/religion/images/grove/Owl%20Dollar.jpg

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Wicca%20&%20Witchcraft/bohemian_grove.jpg

From an article about the Bohemian Grove:

"To purge himself of worldly concerns, a member of the elite Bohemian Club participated in a 1915 Cremation of Care ceremony—complete with candles and a robed and hooded comrade to guide him. This private club of influential men still meets annually north of San Francisco and uses this symbolic ritual to kick off its summer retreat. But today the ceremony involves burning a mummy-like effigy named Care at the foot of the group's mascot: a 40-foot-tall (12-meter-tall) concrete owl."

The Owl is incorporated into the landscape of Washington D.C. This is *not* widely known. So is the Pentagram and the Compass, both Masonic Symbols. A fact which *is* somewhat widely known. Here are some maps showing this:

http://api.ning.com/files/wffUUbxuv8UZkdl0JJ3MOh5392imZewFwsfRAQXMaQQ_/bohemiangrove03_08.jpg

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/washdcpentagram.gif

Unknown to many people is the fact that the Sumerian "Owl Goddess" was Lilith. This ties into the reason why the Owl is important to the ritual of the Bohemian Grove, but not in the way that most people may think it is.
Before we discuss that, however, here are some pictures of Lilith herself:

http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~kabbey/myth04/neareast-inana.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/mabcosmic/drawing/lilith.jpg

The occult "Star of Lilith" incorporates both the pentagram and the horned owl into one symbol that stands for Wisdom through the Five Elements of Creation: Earth, Air, Fire, Water, and Spirit. Here is a picture of the star:

http://www.cojogoo.com/images/StarOfLilith_dctn.jpg

Now, for those who don't know the importance of Lilith as a goddess:
Lilith was not, originally, considered a demoness. She was a goddess of wisdom. This is where the saying "Wise old Owl" comes from, since the Owl was her symbolic animal. When the Israelites defeated the Canaanites in ancient times, they demonized all of their gods and goddesses. Likewise, when the Israelites endured their Babylonian Captivity, they demonized the Babylonian/Sumerian deities including Lilith. Ancient Hebrew texts all mention Lilith and say that she was created before Eve to be Adam's first wife. Adam wanted someone more submissive, so God then created Eve. To get back at Adam, Lilith and Lucifer imparted forbidden knowledge to Eve, which she gave to Adam, resulting in their expulsion from the Garden of Eden. Thus, mostly, the "Cremation of Care" is done to honor the principle of Wisdom as embodied by the Owl, which in ancient times was the embodiment of Lilith. Some folks believe that the "forbidden knowledge" was actually the wisdom of how to live civilized instead of naked and savage. Supposedly, God wanted to slowly ease people into civilization, but Lilith and Lucifer showed Adam and Eve a shortcut, basically, which got God angry. The whole myth probably pertains to early man learning civilization from beings from either another world or another dimension. Not necessarily aliens, but you never know. One group of "aliens", God's, wanted people to take it slowly. The other group, called the "Fallen" wanted people to advance more quickly. This *could* be why some ancient civilizations became civilized so fast while others lived in caves.

All five elements are incorporated into the ritual. Earth, symbolized by the trees. Fire, symbolized by the cremation. Water, symbolized by the body of water nearby the Owl altar. Air, symbolized by the smoke that the fire of the cremation creates. And Spirit, symbolized by the ritual which is a spiritual act.
So, the Star of Lilith tells us the secret of the Grove ritual and it's meaning. It also seems to be a celebration of civilization's triumph over barbarism.

How did a ritual with obvious origins in ancient Babylon and Sumeria come down to us in this form? Through Greek civilization. In ancient Greece, Lilith as a goddess of wisdom was worshipped as Athena. Her most sacred rituals were held in groves at temples such as the one in Eleusis that was dedicated to Artemis. In the Eleusinian Mysteries, the importance of the goddesses Athena, Demeter, Persephone, and Artemis were celebrated in a series of rituals wherein a rite of passage took place that "banished all care" from the celebrants. Athena, as Wisdom, was symbolized by the Horned Owl. Demeter, as Life, was symbolized by the Ear of Corn held by the high priest or priestess during the celebration. Persephone, as Death, was symbolized by the Burning Flame of the sacrificial altar. Lastly: Artemis, as Night, was symbolized by the Crecent Moon, also known as the "Horned Moon". Traditionally, an animal was sacrificed to Persephone, and the myths of the goddesses were recounted, somtimes re-enacted as a kind of "passion play" which was the heart of the event. It was, basically, a celebration that affirmed life and the importance of wisdom in the life of the ancient Greeks. The Eleusinian mysteries were the province of women, and any men caught watching what went on were put to death by law. Thus, the reputation of secrecy first got associated with this.
Over time, the ritual became civilized and instead of sacrificing a living thing, an effigy was used instead. By the time the Greeks converted to Christianity, the ritual got abandoned entirely and all but forgotten save by the learned. The learned being the Gnostics, who revered another goddess of Wisdom, Sophia. The Gnostics were known for adopting ancient Greek philosophies and religious customs and attempting to Christianize them. However, because of the sheer amount of ancient knowledge they preserved, the Church called them heretics and attempted to stamp out Gnosticism wherever it was to be found. This forced the Gnostics to operate in secret, under the guise of other religions. Out of this came the Templars, who included closet Gnostics and even closet Muslims in their order. Because of the secret knowledge that the Templars came to possess because of this, they were deemed enemies of the Church and, like the Gnostics before them, had to operate in secret. That is about the time in history where the Freemasons come into the picture. Some of the Templars in hiding joined the craftsmans' Mason guild, and brought all their knoweldge with them. This is why, technically, the Freemasons are not an offshoot of the Templars, yet they do possess some knowledge passed to them by the Templars. All this is how the Grove ritual we know today came to be remembered by the Masons and incorporated into it's present form.

The sanitized version of the Eleusinian Mysteries was the basis of the whole Cremation of Care ritual that is held at the Bohemian Grove. It's symbols have survived to this day through Masonic symbolism's preservation of them all as part of it's own symbol system. Now, instead of it being predominantly female it is a predominantly male celebration. A precise reversal of ancient tradition that fits in with Western Monotheism's appropriation of once-female oriented religious traditions as male religious traditions. The Grove ritual is kept secret to preserve the concept of the Myteries as a secret celebration. Since this aura of secrecy has persisted since the time of the Eleusis, we may never truly know all there is to know about what really goes on during the ritual. Likewise, no doubt the modern Grove ritual pales in comparison to the lavish ceremonies mentioned in ancient texts regarding Eleusis and it's rival cult, the Cult of Cybele the Mother Goddess. Ironically, the Cybele rituals were much more bloodthirsty and even involved priests who ritually castrated themselves to mimic the self-castrated god Attis who was a lover of the goddess Cybele.

I think the largest reason why the Bohemian Grove ritual is kept secret is due to the fact that it is a Pagan ritual that cannot *be* Christianized, which is a hidden truth that the Gnostics and Templars were aware of. However, it was not intended to be seen as something evil, and probably were it public rather than secret it would seem more like a theatrical event than a mystical ritual. In many ways it reminds me of how in England the Order of Druids (that itself includes many famous Englishmen) reenacts several ancient Druidic rites at Stonehenge. Every country has it's secret rituals of this sort, and it's always related to Pagan rites of the past that people don't want lost or forgotten. This is why people link the Grove ritual to Wiccan rituals. Both are Pagan, even though they are completely unconnected to one another.

The irony? Many scholars believe that Jesus was Gnostic, as was John the Baptist, due to their membership in the Essenes, who were the Gnostic order that wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hammadi texts. So it was the religion of Jesus Himself that would go on to influence both the Templars and the Masons over time. The Templars, being self-appointed guardians of the Holy Grail since the time of King Arthur (centuries before they first adopted the name "Templar"), it is not surprising that the Church wanted to stamp them out. If the Church was bent on portraying Jesus one way, but the Gnostics and Templars knew for a fact that He wasn't that way and had that knowledge as one of their most sacred secrets, then that would make them enemies of the Church. That was the point of "The Da Vinci Code", although it was incorrect in that book to say Mary Magdalene was the only source of the Grail mythos when she was, in fact, merely part of a much larger secret.

[The Magic Rat]

Wow, you guys believe anything.

[ninepinejones]

Wow, you guys believe anything.

I do not think ProfessorChaos was trying to make anyone "believe" in anything. The Professor gathered information that is already out there and presented it in a format that would leave the reader to make their own conclusions. Usually statements like the one "Magic Rat" made come from the mind of somebody who is a believer in the most non-sensical and demented type of stories such as the bible and who believe in...well....magical rats?:whip:

[ProfessorChaos]

Precisely! In my linking of various Indy artifacts and themes to Masonic ideas and symbols... it was *merely* to show that if you happened to be a Mason, then you could read a Masonic meaning into it. However, you could just as easily line up Masonic symbols to other things in other movies and also find meaning in them. Just like some Christians claim that Star Wars has a deep religious significance to their religion, even though it is only Science Fiction. However, researching Gnostic Christianity you'd find a lot of themes that are in common with Star Wars... such as God being an all-encompassing Force, peoples' souls being "sparks of light" similar to Jedi Force Ghosts, and a dark side and light side to everything in the universe. Then again, Zoroastrianism Cosmic Duality likewise could be compared to Star Wars, for similar reasons.
Fiction can be like ink blots. No two people read it the same way. :rolleyes:

Regarding the Bohemian Grove, as I said, we cannot know what truly goes on there. All we can do, is gather what others have called "facts" and imagine in our minds what we will. Those "facts" are not my own, and so by presenting them, all I am doing is putting them on the table so others may look at them and make up their own minds about what they think. The "facts" assume an occult perspective, and what really goes on at the Grove may be not occult as all, but as unassuming a thing as a bunch of people having a party with certain trappings being reminicent of ancient rituals. Sort of like a toga party at a frat house being reminicent of an ancient Greek Bacchanalia. Someone could draw an occult connection there, and say: "It is *very* possible that toga parties began with the Bacchanalia in antiquity!", but that is a very silly thing to assume... since it reads more into a toga party than there really is. However, if someone raised the question: "What is the meaning behind the toga party?" then if the aforementioned silly belief were considered a fact by a great many people then it would bear mention despite it's extreme silliness.
Ironically, though, Bacchanalias were wild parties and the ancient Greeks did wear togas, as did the Romans, so you can see where someone could link the two together and create an interesting discussion about the origins of it all.
It would be even more curious, if toga parties were only ever conducted in secret by one specific group of people, and then only at one specific time. ;)

Since we are talking about secret societies and *secret* things, "facts" may not be quite as factual as people think. However, in the absence of knowing for certain, the average person must make do with those "facts"... no matter how absurd they may be. See what I mean? I am not encouraging anyone to agree with what conspiracy theorists believe, since that would be wacky in the extreme. I am just saying: "See... all this is what some people do happen to believe. Make of it what you will." Rather similar to what I did in my discussion about the dark side of the Wizard of Oz. Not everybody sees it, but it was interesting to present it from the perspective of those who do read it that way, to see what people think of it. Thus stimulating intellectual discussion about otherwise mundane subjects, and bringing out various views.

Presenting ideas from a certain point of view, does not mean it necessarily is my point of view or yours. It is merely playing Devil's Advocate by presenting the idea at all and seeing what people happen to think of it, in general. As we can see... the concensus is split. Some here seem to believe in certain conspiracy-oriented ideas, others joke about them, and some deny them. I myself do not believe there are conspiracies, just interesting mysteries that likely will always remain mysteries since the "facts" we have about them are biased from a certain perspective that may not be the whole truth. However, that does not stop them from being *interesting* topics for conversation. :D

The trick... is to not take certain topics too seriously, but to just have fun.

[Pale Horse]

I think the largest reason why the Bohemian Grove ritual is kept secret is due to the fact that it is a Pagan ritual that cannot *be* Christianized, which is a hidden truth that the Gnostics and Templars were aware of. However, it was not intended to be seen as something evil, and probably were it public rather than secret it would seem more like a theatrical event than a mystical ritual.

I wonder if any of this will come to light with the reports of Sotomayer and the Belizean Grove.....