Mason Association: Part II

[Pale Horse]

Indy actively pursuded several artifacts in the trilogy. They are al follows:

The Idol of Fertility
The Lost Ark (through the pursuading of U.S. Officials)
The Remains of Nurhachi - the first Emperor of the Manchu Dynasty.
The Sankara Stones (though not directly)
The Cross of Coronado, (not a pursuit, a revenge)
The Grail

Out of this list, only 1 has real merit, the Idol. If Indy is a mason, there is evidence enough to tie Eaton and Musgrove to such a society, for the obtainment of the Ark, as well as the Grail. Nurhachi was for money, the Cross was a revenge and the Stones were never a consideration outside obligation.

Is there a connection here?

[VP]

What the heck is Mason?

[Pale Horse]

Freemasonry, a worldwide fraternal organization, often calls itself "a peculiar system of morality veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols." Its members are joined together by high ideals, of both a moral and metaphysical nature (and, in the majority of branches, by a common belief in a Supreme Being). Freemasonry is an "esoteric art," in that certain aspects of its internal work are not generally revealed to the public. Masons give numerous reasons for this, one of which is that Freemasonry uses an initiatory system of degrees to explore ethical and philosophical issues, and this system is less effective if the observer knows beforehand what will happen.

From World IQ.com

[VP]

Oh yeah, the Vapaamuurarit.

[bob]

I am in part baffled and in part inspired by your dedication to this theory Pale Horse!

Now I can believe and have suggested that there is something sinister in the establishment American figures in the Indy trilogy (Army intelligence guys, and even Donovan whose pursuit of the occult and Nazi links may not be confined to him) Now they could be part of a secret organisation.....

But Indy?
He is just not that sort of character, I mean part of his appeal is that he is outside of the establishment conspiracies etc

[Joe Brody]

I always subscribed to bob's view on Indy's independence -- but for the sake of discussion -- I wonder if Palehorse is shooting for something a little more discreet here . . .

For example, I could see a scenario where for the better part of his life Indy was the unwitting tool of the Masons. In other words, those around him -- his father, Marcus, etc. -- manipulated Indy (without Indy's knowledge) to achieve the Mason's presumably positive ends. Is this where you're headed Palehorse?

I think that's a compelling storyline but personally I wouldn't want to see Indy made a part of any organization because that affilation would diminish him.

I could really go off on a tangent here, but I dislike much of the Indy backstory in Last Crusade precisely because I think story elements like Henry Sr.'s education of Indy and Marcus Brody's relationship with Henry Sr. takes away from Indy's accomplishments and the perception of Indy as a 'loner'.

[Pale Horse]

bob,

I don't know if I am necessarily dedicated to this theroy. I think some of it stems from a yearning for long and educated discussions of our famous character. With nothing on the horizon, this board sometimes resembles that of a glorified chat-room (yes I can flood from time to time too.) But that doesn't negate the need to explore somewhat deeper aspects of a compelling character.

The 50's setting in IJ-IV presents us with all sorts of darker elements that most likley be absent from the final product if it ever gets made. Speculating about them is just a good way to stimulate the old grey matter, in between the stuff you do to stimulate the red matter (muscles).

As much as people like to think that Indy is an independant archeologist, the truth is he is constantly pushed into/around/through all of his adventures. Sure he may tell Elsa "You like the way I do things" but the fact remains, he is the reluctant professor that would rather escape through the window, than deal with the responsibility of actually grading papers. He does not seem the type to seek out responsibility, he only satisfies it when he is forced into it. It makes him very similar to a pawn on a chess board.

So what I want to know is this? Who's playin' chess with Indy?

[Joe Brody]

Palehorse, I meant to ask you -- have you watched 'From Hell'?

[Pale Horse]

I have, it was very fascinating.

[swords]

I stand to be corrected since Im not even well versed in the subject to begin with, so my questions may be a little premature, but, Im curious.

I may be a little off, but isn't it bitterly ironic that someone that is or is to become an freemason, the pledge and alliegience one holds to such a society must be aknowledged? Doesn't it counteract the whole purpose of the organization if this is true? If Indy knowingly held those principles subscribed to in the first thread (the one on the ideal description of a mason), wouldn't it prove ineffective on the whole following an loose description of this doctrine, and only later finding out you messed up somewhere? Being an mason, and following a certain code, would also run the risk for second guessing one's self, wouldn't it?

From the perspective of a novice it would be difficult, and Im sure even for a veteran. There is also the ideals, since they fluctuate, so an re-entry may be necessary...

Interesting topic, I also read through the original thread on the subject and I liked what I saw. I only have an vague understanding of the masons, but the premise is there. The society's extent and influence on the outside varibles, or if Indy himself is an free mason, could be interpreted, but unfortunately, its only going to be circumstance and it will be questioned, as there isn't any clear evidence; only speculation seems to be the only reasonable way freemasonry could work in the films.

But I would like to carry it forward, nonetheless; the idea is intriquing and it should be allowed to grow further.

[bob]

I agree with the point of view you put across Pale Horse, Indy could be manipulated by a group such as the Masons and is throughout the movies..... But of some specific link by Indy to the Masons and he being some Masonic Messiah is quite another matter.

But I think it is very difficult to construct an uber conspiracy out of the trilogy; but I wish you luck in doing so - it is good to see some original thought on the movies.

[Pale Horse]

So there I am thinking about the fact that Indiana Jones may be a Free Mason when the phrase "Indiana Jones: Free Mason" popped into my head, and I realized that in fact that statement actually points to the fact that IJ-IV is really about the Garden of Eden

Come on you all see it I know:

I foresee a Madonnas Jinn

Jinn being the plural Islamic reference to any spirit that takes the form of an animal being, you know, the Snake in the Garden...


work with me here people....I am on to something... :D

[Pale Horse]

Come-on Raveners (esp. those long forgotten from this thread)
btw, isn't interesting the choice of avatars by some of the more respected minds of this board...interesting

The list above has a distinct thread sewn through it. Can anyone else see its color? It's purple. ;)

I think if we can find the connection in the artifacts, we can determine the next one Indy will be comissioned to find...

[Deadlock]

btw, isn't interesting the choice of avatars by some of the more respected minds of this board...interesting

Before I can try wrapping my mind around the artifacts, this is one is bugging me. First, I'd have to know who the "respected minds" were before I could even hope to answer this. Do you want me to guess? :)

Here's my guess: with the exception of YOU Pale Horse, the "respected minds" at the Raven prefer avatars of morally ambiguous characters (or just straight up evil ones ;) ).

[Pale Horse]

Well, Baldy...with a bad attitude...maybe. :p

[Deadlock]

Well, Baldy...with a bad attitude...maybe. :p

Ah, the little-understood German Mechanic...

Allow me to explain why the German Mechanic is truly one of the most interesting, symbolic, and tragic characters in the Trilogy. To me, the German Mechanic embodies the distinction between "Nazis" and "Germans." This burly and proficient soldier is one of the few (if not the only) German bad guys that never bears the brand of the Swastika. He sees this mischevious American, and sees a chance to put his vaunted skill as boxer to the test. Unlike this sneaky foreigner who has to rely on a myriad of cheap tricks, the German Mechanic fights fair. He waits for his opponent to be ready, and honorably waits for him to get up after being knocked down.

In his gruesome death, shown only by a spray of blood splattering the Swastika, I think that the German Mechanic is a metaphor. How many Germans simply committed to duty, honor, country, and family fell during WW2? How many good were sacrificed for the cause of evil? I certainly acknowledge the atrocities at the hands of the Nazis. I've been to Auschwitz, I've seen the gas chambers and the ovens. But one must never forget the humanity of even one's worst enemies.

So, though I love that fight sequence (best in the trilogy, IMHO), like Indy, I never want to see the Mechanic die.

[Luisiana Jones]

The bad guys have always been loved by a large amount of fans, they are the most real side of the movie, look at Belloq ,e is this archeologist who at the beginning of his career may have been like Indy,an honorable man working for History, but then he sees the dark side, strong, fast, and easy, and he sees that easy money can´t be made by the <a style='text-decoration: none; border-bottom: 3px double;' href="http://www.serverlogic3.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=22&k=good%20guys" onmouseover="window.status='good guys'; return true;" onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;">good guys</a>, so he joins one of the 2 scums of earth at that time (the other was comunism :p ) , and he just falls just as Anakin did to become Darth Vader.

Well just my thought on bad guys and Belloq :D

But Indy is still the best :whip:

[Aaron H]

Deadlock, you amaze me again. Putting to text such deep thoughts isn't for the weak-minded.

[Joe Brody]

Come-on Raveners (esp. those long forgotten from this thread) [. . . ]

The list above has a distinct thread sewn through it. Can anyone else see its color? It's purple. ;)


Are you saying that Indy IV has been delayed for so long because Lucas is waiting for the Pope to pass on?

Deadlock, you amaze me again. Putting to text such deep thoughts isn't for the weak-minded.

I whole-heartedly second that. Paraphrasing Samuel L. Jackson's character in Pulp Fiction: "Check out the brain on Deadlock."

[Deadlock]

Putting to text such deep thoughts isn't for the weak-minded.

Which would also make me impervious to Jedi mind tricks...

Are you saying that Indy IV has been delayed for so long because Lucas is waiting for the Pope to pass on?

I don't get it. :confused:

In a traditional sense, purple is the color of royalty. In a Catholic sense, purple is the color of times of waiting (Advent and Lent). Joe, you're Pope/Lucas connection went right over my head... (and smacked into a bunch of Pale Horse's stuff that has also gone over my head.) :)

[Luisiana Jones]

What!!?? :confused: That´s pretty, i dunno how to say it, pretty impossible, least probable, stupid affirmation (not trying to insult anyone), I think Indy IV wasn´t delayed just for pleasure, it was delayed because these guys have more work than just Indy (even though we would have liked they didnt) so you have to think that they are busy doing other movies and promos, and there was the script thingy too. :(

[Pale Horse]

Again, Deadlock is proving his worth as he stands at the edge of that black hole called my logic. The Knights Templars used the 33 different degrees in the ancient King making process. Each time a Knight was brought into the room, to "graduate" is you will, the room was adorned differently, depending on which "degree" was being conferred.

Luisiana, it's okay that much of this won't make sense to you. Many of the mysteries being discussed here are not what society would call "common knowledge". Joe can be quite the tongue-in-cheek man, but it takes time to undestand his humor. He is one of the better Jedi's participating in this thread.

[Luisiana Jones]

Joe can be quite the tongue-in-cheek man, but it takes time to undestand his humor. He is one of the better Jedi's participating in this thread.

Well, time will tell... :p

[Joe Brody]

I don't get it. :confused:

In a traditional sense, purple is the color of royalty. In a Catholic sense, purple is the color of times of waiting (Advent and Lent). Joe, you're Pope/Lucas connection went right over my head... (and smacked into a bunch of Pale Horse's stuff that has also gone over my head.) :)

Palehorse is right. I wasn't trying for a direct link to the Pope (he wears white). I think Bishops wear purple and Cardinals wear red. I may wrong but I locked in on Palehorse using the word 'thread' and took it as a literal hint. Who wears purple? I could only come up with Bishops . . . that got me thinking Catholic and that let me to an absurd explanation for the delay in Indy IV.

[Deadlock]

Okay, I'm still not getting the connection Pale Horse.

I don't think we're reading the same stuff about the Templars. I'm aware of some rumors that remnants of the Templars eventually founded the Freemasons. But I'm thinking that that is mostly unlikely as what was left of the Templars got absorbed into the Hospitallers (and the Order of Christ in Portugal and the Order of Montesa in Aragon). I also know that the validity of the "confessions" of the Templars are widely debated because of the use of torture.

However, barring a direct connection (Templars=Freemasons), I can see a certain similarity in the initiation rites of both organizations. But that's about it... I haven't come across any reference to Masonic symbol interpretation that I would put any stock in because it seems that the Mason's make it purposefully misleading (or perhaps there's no true meaning at all, and it's just interpreted on an as-needed basis). Pike says, "Masonry jealously conceals its secrets and intentionally leads conceited interpreters astray". [Morals and Dogma of the A. A. Scot. Rite of Freemasonry 5632 (1882)]

The principal advantages of this symbolism, which is not peculiar to Freemasonry but refers to the mysteries and doctrines of all ages and of all factors of civilization, are the following: (1) As it is adaptable to all possible opinions, doctrines, and tastes, it attracts the candidate and fascinates the initiated. (2) It preserves the unsectarian unity of Freemasonry in spite of profound differences in religion, race, national feeling, and individual tendencies. (3) It sums up the theoretical and practical wisdom of all ages and nations in a universally intelligible language. (4) It trains the Mason to consider existing institutions, religious, political, and social, as passing phases of human evolution and to discover by his own study the reforms to be realized in behalf of Masonic progress, and the means to realize them. (5) It teaches him to see in prevailing doctrines and dogmas merely subjective conceptions or changing symbols of a deeper universal truth in the sense of Masonic ideals. (6) It allows Freemasonry to conceal its real purposes from the profane and even from those among the initiated, who are unable to appreciate those aims, as Masonry intends.

[Pale Horse]

Okay, I'm still not getting the connection Pale Horse.

I don't think we're reading the same stuff about the Templars. ...

However, barring a direct connection (Templars=Freemasons), I can see a certain similarity in the initiation rites of both organizations. But that's about it... I haven't come across any reference to Masonic symbol interpretation that I would put any stock in because it seems that the Mason's make it purposefully misleading (or perhaps there's no true meaning at all, and it's just interpreted on an as-needed basis). Pike says, "Masonry jealously conceals its secrets and intentionally leads conceited interpreters astray". [Morals and Dogma of the A. A. Scot. Rite of Freemasonry 5632 (1882)]

...



I am suggesting that the artifacts that the trilogy has cinematicly produced can be tied to the ancient Rites of Passage needed to cofer a King. Each one can be tied to a different degree.

As far as Pike goes, he is a bete noire figurehead in the context of the Knights Templars. In fact, he is a bastion of destruction to the ancient Rituals. He even stated so himself in his book Morals and Dogma. As a result, Pike went about reforming the (more well known) rituals along with Reverand Whitaker to the more "Christian" demonstrations we find today.

That is not to say that I am not impressed. It appears that Deadlock has been joining Dr. Jones...in the library. :D :p

I too have been researching, and the Rituals and history that I am referring to can be traced much further back, to Sir Robert Moray in Newcastle in 1641, Abram Moses from Rhode Island in 1656, and William St. Clair (of the Rosslyn Chapel). Check out "Jacobite Scottish Degrees" next time your in a converted church. ;)

Who knows, maybe we'll bump elbows researching something else altogether.

[Pale Horse]

Now I can believe and have suggested that there is something sinister in the establishment American figures in the Indy trilogy (Army intelligence guys, and even Donovan whose pursuit of the occult and Nazi links may not be confined to him) Now they could be part of a secret organisation.....


A new exhibit may shed some light on the "establishment American figures" bob speaks about here. Anyone close to THIS (http://www.archfoundation.org/octagon/) who could give us an update on what is there? Don't worry, no secret handshake needed.

[Joe Brody]

A new exhibit may shed some light on the "establishment American figures" bob speaks about here. Anyone close to THIS (http://www.archfoundation.org/octagon/) who could give us an update on what is there? Don't worry, no secret handshake needed.

Palehorse

You truly have the initiated eye . . . .

Just missed it. I spent the weekend before last in DC with my wife for our 13th wedding anniversary -- I ran right by the Octagon while jogging. So between having just been there and having another wee one due first week of August, I don't know if I'll be able to make it to DC this summer but I'll certainly try. It looks like a great exhibit.

I checked out the site and noted there are a of lot lectures coming up -- you should see if they are being taped. It sounds really interested.

Apropos of another discussion, what kills me is that I suspect that there's great material in the exhibit that could have been used to make a film like National Treasure much, much more interesting. It breaks the heart . . .

[ROTLA]

First, kudos to Pale Horse for - to use his words - stimulating the grey matter. (OT - who decided it was OK to spell it "grey" or "gray" and either was acceptable?!?) There's nothing wrong with the everyday posts, but it's always great to come across something that will not only be entertaining but also allow one to grow (whether it be mentally, ethically, creatively, whatever...).


As much as people like to think that Indy is an independant archeologist, the truth is he is constantly pushed into/around/through all of his adventures. Sure he may tell Elsa "You like the way I do things" but the fact remains, he is the reluctant professor that would rather escape through the window, than deal with the responsibility of actually grading papers. He does not seem the type to seek out responsibility, he only satisfies it when he is forced into it. It makes him very similar to a pawn on a chess board.

I don't know if I see things that way. Yes, Indy does shirk the responsibility of grading papers and facing his students, but I don't think it's simply because he's hesitant to take the responsibility. Nor do I think he only acts when forced into it.

I think Indy bounces on the students because he's really just not an office/desk kind of guy. It just happens that it goes along with what he wants to do - be an archaeologist working in the field. But teaching is a means of funding his searches and staying in the academic loop. Similarly, I think Indy often takes responsibility when it comes to seeking artifacts. I don't think he was forced to go after the Cross of Coronado. He probably didn't need much persuasion in his attempt to recover the Idol. These are things which he did because of passion and desire. Sure, you can make the case that the others (Ark, Grail, Nurhachi, Sankara Stones) were the result of outside forces, but I think those are extreme cases for Indy. We just weren't shown the numerous other "adventures" he went on because they weren't entertaining and wouldn't make a good movie!!

As for Indy being a mason, I'm not sure it fits. While he definitely has his positive traits, I think it's safe to say he isn't the guy you want to go to for moral guidance. Perhaps he was once part of the freemasons, but I don't think their principles are the main factors influencing his decisions and actions.

[ROTLA]

btw, isn't interesting the choice of avatars by some of the more respected minds of this board...interesting
Here's my guess: with the exception of YOU Pale Horse, the "respected minds" at the Raven prefer avatars of morally ambiguous characters (or just straight up evil ones.

Perhaps - and this is just a random thought - it's because some of the deeper thinkers have come to the realization that there's an evil side to all of us, though it doesn't mean we're all evil.

Those who are truly evil just don't have the mental strength or desire to avoid the easy trip down the path to (forgive me) the Dark Side. It's probably human nature to take the easy way and the easy way is often that of sin and corruption. If you need money, is it easier to find a job and work for it or is it easier to smack an old lady in the head and swipe her purse? Of course, taking the dark path can ultimately be more work. Eventually the quick fix runs out and you need more. The cycle continues until you're constantly looking for the next score or the next high, whatever it may be. If you're deep enough into evil, you now have to avoid being caught (whether it be by your victims, the law, etc.). But these things aren't necessarily apparent to the person who initially gives in and falls victim to their evil impulses. In order to be "successful" in this type of lifestyle, it would seem one must be intelligent (though not strong-willed) and resilient. There may also be other elements which lead someone to make the choice to follow such a path.

Maybe the "more respected minds of this board" appreciate the depth and complexity of such people and, as such, become fans of those characters. They are intrigued by them. It's also possible that these same posters may see this as their opportunity to put forth their evil side in a non-harmful way, by simply using a face of evil as their avatar (or, in the case of those characters whose tendencies we do not truly know, the picture of someone possibly caught in the struggle between good and evil).

As for Pale Horse's avatar, perhaps Indiana symbolizes a desire to not be locked into one or the other. It would seem a dog has no true concept of what is right and wrong and, in turn, it can lead a "free" life of random choices, never locked into one way of acting.

OK, maybe that makes some sense. Then again, maybe I just had my ticket punched for membership in the least respected minds group.

[roundshort]

Am I the only person who sees Indy as an old west gun fighter. A quiet misunderstood figure who roams around from town to town looking for work. Not that a gunfighter enjoys being a gun fighter, but enjoys the fight, the thrill and most of all the challange.

Couldn't Indy just dig up dinosaur bones? No the main objects are (not the little side objects like the fertillity god or the Cross or Coranado) are major power objects, the wratih or God, the cup of Christ (hell could you imagine all the Nazis drinking that, well the Marines would have delt witht hem anyhow), and the stones witht he power to feed or strave a whole village (I admit the stones are a streach). Indy is in it for the fight, the cash and the adventure.

Lets not make him more than what he his. I really can't picture Indy being part of any tpe of organization, is he even a social person?

Well, hopefully G.L. and S.S. wont mess up Indy IV, Gray Davis if you are out there please, advise Steven very closely on this one, I for one will never forgive you . . .

[Moedred]

As a Freemason myself, I can tell you Deadlock's posts on the parallel thread (http://raven.theraider.net/showthread.php?t=6204) are most accurate. Though I do know enough Catholic Masons. Most Christian denominations would probably discourage membership (some louder than others) because the lodge competes for one's time and philanthropy.

Here's (http://www.usnews.com/usnews/culture/articles/050905/5masons.htm) a pretty good overview. The grand secret of Freemasons, as brother Benjamin Franklin once said, is that they have no secret at all. They may have a nice collection of old books though, if nothing like a local Ashburnham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotton_library) library. And they don't observe or test prospective members. They can't. Most local lodges (http://www.calodges.org/links/index.htm) will merely display on their sites the bumper sticker, Ask12B1.

Wish I'd found the thread sooner, but now that I'm here, I'll answer what I can. And that's Sir Moedred to you. ;)

[Pale Horse]

The reason I started stretching my brain on this many moons ago had to do with the Robert Lomas books I was reading. Have you had a chance to read them? If so, do you find thir research to be credible or fantastic?

[Moedred]

I've just read the summaries. I think the connection between the Knights Templar and York Rite Masonry is flimsy at best. The wearing of fezzes and other ornamental hats is a recent tradition. Morocco and Tunisia became westernized in the 19th century, which inspired the Shriners and others. The York Rite, like the Knights of Columbus, wear a feathered bicorne chapeau. Oh, I love the hats.

It's amusing Lomas is considered by some the model for Robert Langdon. Originally Dan Brown was going to make a trilogy, but now the series is indefinite. I think he was going to finish with something like Another Roadside Attraction, a final thumb in th eye to Christianity, but these last few years he's been wondering how far he could or should go.

[Pale Horse]

stumble *bump* - "OW!"