What on earth is going on?!

[Canyon]

Can please someone tell me what the heck is going on regards Indyologist's threads regarding voting for the guys in their Indygear.

I logged onto the Raven at 8.30 pm England Time and found that the polls had been locked.

So guys, tell me this. How on earth are us girls supposed to vote if the threads have been locked? :(

I think you'll agree that I'm a pretty reasonable person, but I just don't understand whats going on.

[Indy's_main_man]

well there already was ONE thread for that and I believe the mods wanted it to remain one instead of all the different ones.

[Finn]

Well, the answer is simple. We came into conclusion that those voting threads out there were messing the board layout... you know, it was difficult to make the other threads out through them. Not impossible, I admit, but surely harder than usually. So we decide to limit the votes as one at a time. The rest of the threads were locked, but will be reopened once you tell us you're done with the previous one. Simple, no?

But to make this up, the current vote will be made a sticky topic that stays on the top of the page, no matter if no one posts into it.

<small>And yeah, it's me granted with a grasp of power again. But don't think this is something performed by my twisted mind only. I do have our respected admin's approval... and not being the only one who thinks this is the best way to handle it.</small>

Have a nice day.

[Canyon]

Thank you. Now I understand.

So Finn, you're now a moderator again. How'd that happen. :p

BWHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!


Just kidding. ;)

[Finn]

You know Ren, I kinda share your thoughts. When I found out they're going to make me a watcher again, my first impression was "these guys never learn".

...or then, nationality really <i>does</i> matter. Let's have a look at from what parts of the world the people around here visit our little gigs. We have a lot of Americans. Lot of the mods are Americans, too. Then we do have Canucks, a handful of Brits, Dutchmen, French, Spaniards, Germans... and as the bottom of the pot, two lousy Finns. As you may have noticed, we have two European mods, both of them being, well... go figure.

[Finn]

As usual, I'm just doing my best.

And guess it's the time to figure out if I've become any better.

[Tennessee R]

Conglations, Finn.

Do you want me to break it real slow to 00Kevin when he gets back? ;)
No, I'm glad your a mod again. Are you still going to be in the service?

[Attila the Professor]

Originally posted by Tennessee R
Conglations, Finn.

Do you want me to break it real slow to 00Kevin when he gets back? ;)
No, I'm glad your a mod again. Are you still going to be in the service?

Not to respond on Finn's behalf, but I highly doubt that he's been deferred just because he's been made a moderator, even if that does serve to better international relations somewhat.

[VP]

Finn must join <a href="http://www.mil.fi">The Finnish Defence Forces</a>. If he doesn't want to, he must go to non-military service. If he doesn't want to do either, he will be punished.

The same goes with every male Finn. Even me.

[Luckylighter]

Originally posted by Renderking Fisk
I’ll get trashed for saying this.

I think The Service should be mandatory for every adult male here in the United States. Not put everyone into hot spots like Iraq an Afghanistan… or anywhere you would put professional solders. Nope… inspecting cargo carriers coming in from over-seas, fire the complete incompetent and RETARDED baggage inspectors at the airports, and round up the ILLEGAL Aliens from Terrorist nations.

Give boys a year or two between High School and college so they can figure out what they want to do.

That's my biggest regret: that I never served in the Military. Out of high school, all I wanted to be was a filmmaker. Then I got b****slapped by reality. I should have gone into the service before college/film school. Or at the very least, joined the ROTC. If only I had known then what I know now.

[Pale Horse]

You can still be a film maker, you are young, and you're not dead...at least at the last post. :D

[skywlkrinc]

Originally posted by Renderking Fisk
I’ll get trashed for saying this.

I think The Service should be mandatory for every adult male here in the United States. Not put everyone into hot spots like Iraq an Afghanistan… or anywhere you would put professional solders. Nope… inspecting cargo carriers coming in from over-seas, fire the complete incompetent and RETARDED baggage inspectors at the airports, and round up the ILLEGAL Aliens from Terrorist nations.

Give boys a year or two between High School and college so they can figure out what they want to do.
I can agree with this. Most other countries have mandatory military service for young men and women once a certain age is reached. The only reason I didn't go into the military (either Navy SeaBees or Army Corps of Engineers) was out of respect for my mother, who asked me not to.

Her only brother was MIA and later declared KIA in Vietnam. He was a crewchief/machinegunner on a Huey. His chopper was shot down running air support for a SOG mission. He was too badly wounded to be moved by the other crew members (also wounded). When the Medivac came he was nowhere to be found. Then the Huey was destroyed to keep it out of enemy hands.

My mom couldn't watch We Were Soldiers or Blackhawk Down (or any other war movie with helicopters).

Luke

[Ayrun]

Fisk; I don't agree at all, but I can understand your point of view.
I just believe it should be your own choice. You shouldn't be forced into these kind of things.

[Luckylighter]

Originally posted by Renderking Fisk
I’ll get trashed for saying this.

I think The Service should be mandatory for every adult male here in the United States. Not put everyone into hot spots like Iraq an Afghanistan… or anywhere you would put professional solders. Nope… inspecting cargo carriers coming in from over-seas, fire the complete incompetent and RETARDED baggage inspectors at the airports, and round up the ILLEGAL Aliens from Terrorist nations.

Give boys a year or two between High School and college so they can figure out what they want to do.

Don't call baggage inspectors retarded...that's an insult to retarded people. ;) :D

Seriously, people with Down Syndrome are more competent than most airport employees, and twice as friendly.

[Finn]

Small countries need mandatory armies, that comes for granted. If the tight spot comes, five million Finns can probably arm about a million men (or little less) to defend their country. And as VP well stated out there, the official name of this entity of service really is the Finnish <i>Defense</i> Forces. Defense. There is not a single time in history when this army would have performed an offensive attack.

With US... well, I can think of one thing why the army isn't mandatory out there. Money. Anyone have any idea how much would it cost to train generation after generation? And besides, US has weapons like far-reaching warheads and such that really don't encourage to go on an offensive against them (and now I mean an actual army of another country, not those prissy terrorists who're not fighting a "honest" war)... you start an invasion and the next thing you see is a mushroom cloud there where your capital used to be.

We don't have anything like that. All we have is the people of this country, hopefully still willing to defend it against any invasion at any costs.

And that honor of defending this country is rooted pretty deep in the history. 60 years ago, we were facing an enemy that had ten times more men on the other side of the lines directed to go against us. This enemy also had better equipment... and lots of more of it.

And for five years... they do nothing but fight. A country that was supposed to be a small bite taking probably five weeks to invade fends off this massive attack. 500 000 against 5 000 000. And no banana. The men on both sides had the same training, they were both mortal men, flesh and blood.

Can anybody explain this? I know I can't.

[VP]

Nazi Germany helped Finland in the Continuation War, Finns knew the locations, they were smart and they had <i>sisu</i>. The last one is the most important one.

But it is still a miracle, and this thread is off-topic.

[skywlkrinc]

The desire to protect your home, family, friends, neighbors and country will always be stronger than an invader's. It's been proven countless times throughout history.

Luke

[Finn]

Originally posted by VP
But it is still a miracle, and this thread is off-topic. Actually, it's not... the title of this thread is the same thing than that what Joseph Stalin said when he visited the Finnish front...

[vaxer]

Military service was abolished in France not so long ago (I'd say about five years ago) which is good news if you ask me.

I don't think anyone should be forced into military actions. Because what if you're drafted in a war that you're firmly opposed to? (Not if your country is beeing invaded but if it's actually the invader in a pre-emptive war for example). Democracy allows everyone to have an opinion and democratic countries should respect that. Of course I'm beeing a little idealistic here but...

[Finn]

Americans:
They lift their Star Spangled Banners and go yelling "for freedom!"

Brits:
They lift their Union Jacks and go yelling "for the King and country!"

Russians:
They lift their red flags and go yelling "Uraaa!"

Finns:
They lift their blue-crossed flags and go yelling "hakkaa päälle perkele!"

Frenchmen:
They lift their white flags and go yelling "we surrender!"



...seriously, I support draft service in Finland as long as I'm serving the Finnish <i>Defense</i> Forces.

[Raffey]

Hahaha! :D I've heard that joke before about surrendering before....


To help get this thread back on topic, are those current votes from ALL FEMALE members or are some of you GUYS casting in your votes as well? *Shudder* :p

[Webley]

Originally posted by VP
Finn must join <a href="http://www.mil.fi">The Finnish Defence Forces</a>. If he doesn't want to, he must go to non-military service. If he doesn't want to do either, he will be punished.

The same goes with every male Finn. Even me.
Here in the USA if you want to get out of the military draft all you have to do is go to your physical in women's underwear and talk to your self like you have an imaginary friend and tell them your gay. I bet this would work in most countries.
The way I see it if your not willing to look a man in the eyes and take his life with your bare hands then your not fighting for a just cause.

[Gilles V]

Please stop discussing politics outside the "Off topic" forum.
Thank you.

[vaxer]

<b>Finn</b>,

Originally posted by Finn
Frenchmen:
They lift their white flags and go yelling "we surrender!"


I've heard (seen) this joke before like most of Anti-french pre Irak war jokes. I must admit I thought you were on a higher level. this joke belongs to history-frustrated ignorants who have never given the time to open a history book. but I'll forgive you for not knowing what you're talking about because I don't know much of the Finnish history.

Let me prouve this joke wrong:

France has never been afraid to fight a war, it has only resisted into being ordered to do so (Iraq).

The Gauls faught to death against the Roman empire.

The French emperor Charlemagne subdued all Europe in fourty years of military victories, crushing and occupying barbarian Germany and repelling vast Arab armies.

The Norman French invaded and destroyed the English army in 1066 in the Norman conquest, ruling england for over 350 years. This is why 40 per cent of English words are of french origin.

The French people faught and defeated the English invaders in the hundred years war led by a girl named Joan.

It was France who largely funded the American revolution and helped win the war for America's freedom.

It was the French of the revolution and of Napoleon who for 23 years conquered all of Europe.

It was France who started the draft for all men in 1792

In WW1 France sent 1,800,000 million young men to die in the trenches of hell. If France built a wall like the vietnam memorial for just WW1, it would be 32 times longer.

So what is this joke about? A military startegic error that faild to stop le Blizkrieg and led France to the horrible Vichy government, a totalitarian collaborationist regim led by an overaged racist,
that stole all the country's money and sent all the young men to the STOs. After hosting two world wars and almost 2.5 million victims the country was brought to ruins.

Every town in France, even the smallest burg, has at its center a pillar of granite or marble with the names of the men whose bodies were torn to bit or corroded by some battlefield disease. A whole race of orphans grew up after WWI...and special seats on the subway were designated for those "mutilated in war" including thousands of "sans gueules", men who had had their jaws blown away and yet survived, too horrible to look upon.

I hardly see the French withdrawal attitude or cowardice, maybe you can help me out.



<b>Renderking</b>,

I never disagreed with what you said, i actually thought it was a pretty good idea. I'm against military service, that doesn't mean I'm against any sort of national service. As long as it can't go against ones political opinions then I'm fine with it.



<b>Gilles</b>,

If this thread does not suit this table, then you can move it to the OT table.

[Finn]

Vax,
I know the history of France pretty well. But you were just practically asking for that joke with that post of yours. My apologies.

Anyway, it's pretty narrow thinking if one thinks army is needed just when there is going to be a war. Actually, countries need armies to <i>ensure that the war never even starts</i>. Because, if the country has some kind of force that makes it to appear that an invasion might not be a walk in the park, one never even considers about it. And this is the main idea of countries having armed forces. And again, we'll have to think about the location of course. P'haps a draft is not necessary in France, I admit. The country can possibly gather enough voluntary manpower to have defense forces reliable enough. And not training every man naturally also saves money to be used on other, equally important issues.

Ren,
You talk for mandatory service in the US. Just out of curiosity, have you been in?

Gilles,
This is damn far OT, but damn too interesting to be locked. So please move this to OT section.

[vaxer]

I'm not against armed forces, I'm agianst the very pricipal of the military draft. Many people want to go to the army and the army offers interesting jobs that can be very diverse. Let these people who have a true vocation be the army.

I used to like the army a lot (we are all culturaly pressured to do so), but now one thing frightens me: you loose your ability to decide. And that goes against my conception of freedom.

Now what's more important? My freedom or my countries freedom. I can't answer. on my scale my freedom is more important but on a historical scale it's the countries freedom.

EDIT: what makes it even more complicated is that they're both related.

Plus I have TWO countries which makes it even more complicated.

[Finn]

But sometimes, the freedom of your country and the freedom of you walk hand in hand.

I'm pretty certain that any of those men who fought for the freedom of this country 60 years ago if they hadn't practically been forced to do it. And thanks to that, I'm a free man today.

I see going to draft bit like paying taxes to freedom. It's off from me, but it's a decent price to pay for me to live in a country like this.

Now you may not notice, but you're not completely free; the society you're living has a lot of invisible bounds keeping you from doing <i>absolutely</i> anything you may get to your head. It's called negative freedom, but it's still freedom, nevertheless. And perhaps even better than positive freedom, since when the society is well, the chances are higher that you are well.

My draft takes maximum one year off from my life. I see it a little price to maintain the freedom I've chosen.

[vaxer]

Originally posted by Renderking Fisk

Again, you’re talking ancient history. Right now, during this War On Terror, the French have made it a sport to criticize every move the American’s made. THE FRENCH have a reputation of being anti-American and have been making this reputation worse by their actions and indecisivenesss. The only decisivenesss the French HAVE displayed is voicing an opinion OPPISITE of what the American’s say.

While The French have been criticising America for going into this war that’s “all about the oil”, there are bold accusations that German, Russia and FRANCE had secret back-room deals via the UN expoliting the “Oil for Food” program with Iraq.

I’m not trashing all French people, nor it’s past. I’m trashing the current Regiem. I don’t blame you for your opinions and views, you’re being fed a long stream of Pro-socialist Anti-American crap via your state-supported media.

Fine lets talk recent history.

France had an opinion about this war from the very beginig so why should it change!? Chirac said it: we will not go to war untill the inspectors say that Saddam has WMD's. Is that clear enough? yes. Bush introduced the concept of pre-emptive war which is not something everyone can accept easly. Chirac never talked about it being "all for the oil" and the French media never supported it much either. The geopolitical reasons were way more convincing. France's position was OPPOSIT to America's so why are you so suprised that france kept OPPOSING America, i mean it's only logical. America took it personnaly with that stupid phrase "if you're not with us you're against us". as of today i think France's position was pretty justified as for America's...well you know.

The French are not anti-american, but they're very strongly anti-Bush (I'd say about 98 per cent of the population). yeah we didn't start calling our Mc Donalds "Mac Freedom" in order to show our hatred of a certain culture.

Somehow Americans like to blame it all on France and making the French sound like idiots. what's so wrong about having a different opinion. I don't recall france beeing the only county opposing America.

[Indy's_main_man]

All of you may want to read this:

http://billoreilly.com/currentarticle

it's about how much America has done for the world and what we recieve for it

[Canyon]

Uh, guys. Sorry to rain on your parade, but when are the rest of these polls being unlocked?

[Finn]

When you tell me that you're done with poll #1, poll #2 will be unlocked and made a sticky. (While poll #1 naturally receives the opposite treatment.) When you tell me you're done with poll #2, poll #3 will be... etcetera.

[Canyon]

Originally posted by Finn
When you tell me that you're done with poll #1, poll #2 will be unlocked and made a sticky. (While poll #1 naturally receives the opposite treatment.) When you tell me you're done with poll #2, poll #3 will be... etcetera.

Okay, I'll let Indyologist know! :D

[vaxer]

Originally posted by Renderking Fisk
The reason why most of us American’s GENUINELY Despise the French is that whenever you need us we’re always there but when we need you you’re off in your vineyards or in your cafés never missing an opportunity to criticize us. THAT is what pisses us off… the perception that you never miss an opportunity to criticize us. Do you get that?

Over the past year American solders have uncovered a long list of things Iraq wasn’t supposed to have, such as the materials and tool for MAKING WMD’s, but that’s not enough for you and the rest of the French. What are they doing with mobile labs used to make Biological weapons?

Why were the French making sweetheart deals with Saddam for oil while your ambassadors were passing resolutions condemning Iraq? There’s something mixed up there, and you know it.

If some of this is surprising to you, it’s because you don’t get much more then the Pro-socialist Anti-American crap your state-supported media produces. I don’t blame you much for the way you think and act against Americans. It’s MY perception that we can’t make you happy unless we’re giving up.


So we spent billions of dollars and thousands of human lives for three liters of forgotten pre 1991 gulf war sarin. The day WMDs will be found it will be written on the first page of every single newspaper in the world (and yes that includes the French newspapers). Blair and Bush confirmed it two days ago: <html>http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/06/25/iraq/main560449.shtml</html>

The WMD prouf was a lie! In other words there's every reason to be against it.

Concerning international deals, it was a much greater risk to go against Americans then to follow them. I don't think you realize how disproportioned our deals with the united states are compared to the ones we had in Iraq.

Again the French don't criticize Americans, the constantly criticize Bush, because he's a liar and his lies are of international reach. Please prouve me wrong.

I would also like to know what you think is the positive outcompe of this war.

[Indy's_main_man]

Originally posted by vaxer
The WMD prouf was a lie! In other words there's every reason to be against it.

Don't blame Bush for bad intelligence

oh and by the way, Many people are boycotting France and they've lost about a billion dollars in exports

[Indy's_main_man]

i'll just post the whole article I linked to earlier:

The Price of Freedom
By: Bill O'Reilly for BillOReilly.com
Thursday, Jul 15, 2004

A recent poll taken in Canada says that 40% of Canadian teenagers believe the United States is an "evil" country. Among French-Canadian teens, the number rises to 64%. This, of course, is hard to believe, and must be laid right on the doorstep of the often viciously anti-American Canadian press as well as irresponsible educators supposedly teaching Canadian kids about the world.
And all over the world, America is getting slaughtered in the arena of public opinion. Therefore, what can we expect from children? When government funded press agencies like the BBC and the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation portray America as the world's chief villain, there's little anyone can do to balance the picture. The Fox News Channel, for example, isn't even allowed in Canada.

So for the benefit of the Canadian kids, and, indeed, children all over the world, I am going to set the record straight right here in this column.

Let's start with an undeniable fact: The United States of America has set more people free than any other country in the history of mankind. We all know about World War II, but here's what's happened recently:

In Eastern Europe, the policies of Ronald Reagan led to the freeing of at least 122 million people from Soviet domination.


More than 48 million South Koreans remain free because of American protection.


Nearly 23 million Taiwanese remain free because of American protection.


The state of Israel and five and a half million Jews would be crushed by its enemies if not for American aid.


By removing the brutal regimes in Iraq and Afghanistan, America and Britain have given almost 50 million people at least a shot at some kind of self-determination. Also, the American-driven campaign against the butcher Milosovic in the Balkans saved the lives of hundreds of thousands of people, most of them Muslims.


America is sending $3 billion a year to Africa to combat the AIDS epidemic. By comparison Canada is sending $270 million, France a paltry $60 million.
And those countries have the nerve to portray America as a villain? How many human beings has France freed over the past 60 years? The same question can be asked of Canada. Yes, those nations have helped the USA on occasion, but they are drifting away from reality now.
It's not only Canadians and the French who are misguided about the USA; there's also a fifth column in America itself. The "anarchists" are hoping to disrupt the Republican convention in New York City. Police believe they will use violent means to do so.

And the verbal violence on display daily by partisan fanatics is growing more despicable by the moment. Michael Moore and his acolytes hide behind the "dissent" label, but they are not dissenters, they're destroyers. Moore has been quoted as saying capitalism is "diabolical," even as he trucks his millions to the bank. By the way, did you know that associates of Hezbollah want to help distribute Moore's movie in the Middle East? What does that tell you?

The truth is that America is a great country striving to protect itself in an ungrateful and dangerous world. We, the people, have sacrificed blood and money so others could have a chance in life. Yet many teenagers in Canada are convinced we are an evil nation. The powers-that-be in Canada should be ashamed that their young people are so ignorant but I know they are not. Ignorance, you see, is most often a contagious disease.

[vaxer]

Originally posted by Indy's_main_man
oh and by the way, Many people are boycotting France and they've lost about a billion dollars in exports

thanks for illustrating my point about France having higher interests in The united states then in Iraq.

Originally posted by Indy's_main_man
Don't blame Bush for bad intelligence


Oh I will! "In his first public defense of prewar intelligence, CIA Director George Tenet said Thursday that U.S. analysts never claimed before the war that Iraq posed an imminent threat."
<html>http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4049012/</html>

[Indy's_main_man]

Originally posted by vaxer
thanks for illustrating my point about France having higher interests in The united states then in Iraq.

tell me why you think we're boycotting?

[vaxer]

Yeah I've read your article I_M_M. As Renderking told me earlier when I posted about france's history, were talking about the situation as of today (post Iraq war).

Keep in minde that America is the most powerful country in the world, probably one of the most loved and hated for it's millions of different aspects. You can't blame any country's people as a whole for anything going on in any country or else it's xenophobia. Many people dislike America's international policies, that doesn't mean Americans are hated for that or considered evil. People are allowed to disagree with certain aspects of american policy. To disagree doensn't mean to hate.

The author of that article considers the world is black or white. His vision is way too simplistic. he's just trying to scare Americans. Don't worry the world is not THAT stupid, it can tell the difference between a policy, an administration and a population.

[vaxer]

Originally posted by Indy's_main_man
tell me why you think we're boycotting?

Sorry but that goes beyon me. I don't boycott American products because of the fact I disagree with their international policies. Actually I find that completly stupid. there is a difference between the french people (inculdes culture) and the french policies...

[Indy's_main_man]

we're not boycotting because you don't help us after all we've done for you

we're boycotting because you don't help us after all that we've done for you and then you have the balls to criticize us.

[VP]

Originally posted by vaxer
In WW1 France sent 1,800,000 million young men to die in the trenches of hell.

Hmm... 1 800 000 000 000 is a lot of people. I thought that France had only about 60 000 000. :rolleyes: :p