Women in the movies

[Deadlock]

Joe Brody and I were having a really interesting conversation via e-mail, and I was curious about that the rest of you thought.

He and I were talking about women in film, particularly in the Indy films. Joe noted that in today's world there are expectations set by the powers that be (Hollywood, women's lib movement, etc.) regarding the way woman are portrayed in films.

Though I agree that these politics exist, I think that they are applied inconsistently and illogically. In particular, I feel that films in the male-dominated genres (action, comic book, etc.), only pay lip service to the ideals of respect and equality for women (if at all). As crazy as it sounds... Yes, I'm suggesting that scantily clad babes MIGHT not be the greatest proponents of respect for women. :)

Bringing this back to Indy... Let's look at the female leads. Marion was a firebrand, but she had to be rescued by Indy constantly. Willie... let's not even go there. :) And Elsa, even though she's supposed to be Indy's "equal," ultimately, she can't figure it out on her own. She needs Indy and uses her standard-issue feminine wiles to get what she wants. Draw your own conclusions.

One last point. While I wholeheartedly support respect for women, I don't think EVERY movie needs to be a platform from which to preach this ideal. Call me a chauvinist pig, but I think it's okay for stories to have damsels in distress. I don't want to see every story scrubbed of characters that might give unbalanced view of the demographic they represent. (Which is good, because that's actually impossible.) For example, as a male, I will fully admit that there are men who are idiots (and far worse). Therefore, I'm not really offended by movies that portray them as such.

Feel free to discuss.

[IAdventurer01]

I stand by that creators of a work of art (film, ,etc.) essentially have the right to tell the story THEY want to tell, not what everyone else wants to tell.
So for me, it doesn't matter what the thinking of the times are, it is the thinking of the person making the story that matters.

[Jay R. Zay]

a difficult subject. i'd say that if women in general approached their equality in a more decent and less rambo-style way, they'd have success much faster. in germany, we had some female politician who wanted to have the male silhouettes in the traffic lights replaced by female ones. that's what it is - many women are complaining about idiotic stuff and therefore us men have no idea what equal rights would look like - seriously, if equal rights means that we have girls like angelina jolie in Tomb Raider running around everywhere - no thanks. smart and self confident women don't agree to these childish fights.

this way, back to movies - i don't think that movies like TR contribute anything to the women's liberation or whatever. if somebody likes them - okay. but generally i'm not in favor of movies who add this typical "strong female" character just because it's political correct. don't add some character just because it belongs to an underpriviliged group - women, black people, etc. . this stuff only makes very clear how less these ideals are part of our reality.

[Joe Brody]

Just by way of example, if the Hardy Boys stories were to be (re)adapted for the small or big screen, would Mrs. Hardy still be the stay-at-home mom content to pack big lunches? Would Callie and Iola be wallflowers?

Or in a detective or other adventure film, is it possible to have a female lead that -- like a stay-at-home-spouse, for example -- that seemingly exists to support the endeavors of the leading man?

Growing up I was a huge fan of Bewitched. Samatha Stevens was smarter than Dagwood -- it was clear for all to see and I believe he admitted as much on occassion. I'll be very curious to see the film adaptation this summer starring Nicole Kidman to see whether her role has been updated or left traditional.

[Deadlock]

Just by way of example, if the Hardy Boys stories were to be (re)adapted for the small or big screen, would Mrs. Hardy still be the stay-at-home mom content to pack big lunches? Would Callie and Iola be wallflowers?

See, that's very complicated. We superimpose our ideals back on time periods where they may not fit. With our liberated ideals we assume that Mrs. Hardy was chafing under the male-dominated tyranny of making big meals, and longed to have a high-paying job or secret love affair with the milkman. You know what? We just don't know. Certain ideas and norms were probably status quo when the Hardy Boys were set, and I think that Mrs. Hardy was probably product of her time.

However, I don't think that you could bring the Hardy family to the screen direct from the books without making a farce. It would smack to much of "Leave it to Beaver" (IE an over idealized state). However, I think the greater challenge would be to show Mrs. Hardy as relevant character who both fit the norms of her time, but was more involved in the lives of her sleuthing sons than a mere maker of sandwiches.

[Colonel Vogel]

I prefer movies with little or no women like The Great Escape, Paths of Glory, Saving Private Ryan, The Dam Busters, and Lawrence of Arabia. :D

[My Whips Bigger]

we had some female politician who wanted to have the male silhouettes in the traffic lights replaced by female ones.

I've always wondered about the traffic light signs, and wondered if perhaps they could have perhaps accomadated for both genders, but I don't think changing them female would be the right approach. It's like alot of things, people aren't happy with equality, they want to go one step ahead and then they seem call the minority card when things get tough.

I think an actress who manages to escape alot of stereotypes is Sandra Bullock. She's clumsy in all her films and isn't afraid to do things that usually wouldn't happen to women in films, yet always retains a feminine grace which doesn't make you think all these things are done just to make it seem like shes doing it to make a point, but rather comes across as character nuaunces.

[Jay R. Zay]

in western germany, these signs are mostly androgynous anyway. women wear pants just like men so why is there any problem? in eastern germany, there is somebody in the traffic lights who is supposed to be male but even it he is - who cares?

"It's like alot of things, people aren't happy with equality, they want to go one step ahead and then they seem call the minority card when things get tough."

right.

i have to admit that i've never seen a movie with Sandra Bullock, but i think naomi watts would be another star to mention. very different roles (e.g. Tank Girl, Mulholland Drive, The Ring) and she always is convincing. she never seriously plays the "strong girl" role or the "weak girl" - she's just a real character, like a male character, too. even though she looks this good. :)

[Joe Brody]

O.K. Let's try this -- how many 'traditional' second-fiddle type female leads have their been in either films or T.V. series since 1980. I'm talking everything from action-adventure films (Deadlock nicely summarized the Indy series), to cop & detective shows/films (like 'Hart-to-Hart' or 'Moonlighting'), to thrillers.

[Deadlock]

I don't know how you define "traditional", but I'm going to define it as a role that is one or more of the following:

1. A character that the male lead must protect/rescue.
2. A female character who is cool but nevertheless subsidiary to the male lead.

Let me see, off the top of my head...

Sarah Connor in the Terminator (and Terminator 2 arguably)
Lois Lane in Superman
Vicki Vale in Batman
Rogue in X-Men
Helen Tasker in True Lies
Any Bond Girl in any Bond movie ;)

Notable exception:
Ripley in Alien

EDIT: I also think that I can make a case that Princess Leia also fits the "traditional" description as well.

[Joe Brody]

These are interesting:

(1) Lois Lane in Superman - true damsel in distress but still an ace reporter tops in her field
(2) Vicki Vale in Batman - Ace photographer tops in her field. Shot photos appearing on the cover of Time Magazine calling attention to the growing war in Corto Maltese
(3) Rogue in X-Men -- run-away teenager . . . tough to point to her but she gets props for independance.
(4) Helen Tasker in True Lies -- (cringe) -- good example but she was written as a caricature of the domestic housewife to contrast against her super proficient government agent husband.
(5) Sarah Connor in the Terminator (and Terminator 2 arguably) -- another character specifically written (the early '80's big-hair girls-just-want-to-fun chick) to contrast with Arnold.
(6) Any Bond Girl in any Bond movie -- (threw me a softball, eh?) Wasn't Denise Richards (or someone equally talented) a nuclear physicist? And let's not forget Halle Berry as a CIA agent.
(7) Princess Leia -- rebel leader, proficient at complaining, being judgmental and staring apprehensively at a computer screens hinting at her doom.

How about Sandra Bullock in Speed?

[Deadlock]

All the things you say are true. But I'm not just talking about what's on their business card, I'm talking about the way their characters are portrayed. Sometimes their big job titles are a detriment... take Denise Richards in
The World is Not Enough. She's a world expert in nuclear physics (or something like that) at the ripe old age of... 28 (Denise's age in '99)??? Get real! It's like frickin' "Doogie Howser." Such an obvious ploy to get a hot chick on the screen ought to get a double penalty. Helen Tasker and Sarah Connor were at least somewhat close to reality. (As a matter of fact, if a pretty much unstoppable death robot came after me, you can bet I'd be totally worthless too!)

I agree with Jay, if you're forcing the issue, you're making things worse.

(7) Princess Leia -- rebel leader, proficient at complaining, being judgmental and staring apprehensively at a computer screens hinting at her doom.

LOL! :D

Even though rescuing her was a key part of Star Wars, she'll always remain one of the spunkiest female characters of all time.

"I recognized your foul stench when I was brought on board." :)

Sandra Bullock in Speed? Well, she did have several prestigious speeding tickets on her resume... and she did jump a gap in a freeway (a feat that is enough to make the A-Team weep with joy). But Keanu "Oh Darn" Reeves still gets to save the day (and said damsel).

[Joe Brody]

All the things you say are true. But I'm not just talking about what's on their business card, I'm talking about the way their characters are portrayed. Sometimes their big job titles are a detriment... take Denise Richards in
The World is Not Enough. She's a world expert in nuclear physics (or something like that) at the ripe old age of... 28 (Denise's age in '99)??? Get real! It's like frickin' "Doogie Howser." Such an obvious ploy to get a hot chick on the screen ought to get a double penalty.

I agree on the double penalty. . . however characters like Denise Richard's Bond girl (and the Elizabeth Shue character in The Saint) are simply the most extreme examples of the length to which Hollywood is willing to go today to give the female lead 'bona fides' to keep them from just being tag-alongs. It doesn't matter if the reality of the role is simply to be eye-candy or a damsel in distress or comic sparring partner, the conventions of the day call for the character to have some credentials, status or career (with the exception of the charcters written to specifically serve as a point of distinction with the male lead, like in Terminator or True Lies).

Even in the soon-to-be-released Interpreter, Nichole Kidman will play an interpreter, conversant, I assume, in a number of languages.

[Deadlock]

I agree on the double penalty. . . however characters like Denise Richard's Bond girl (and the Elizabeth Shue character in The Saint) are simply the most extreme examples of the length to which Hollywood is willing to go today to give the female lead 'bona fides' to keep them from just being tag-alongs.

But does it really keep them from being tag-alongs? I don't think so. If anything, if being a tag-along is an "injury", then tacking a crock of ludicrous credentials on her is an "insult". Isn't that just making it worse? "Well you WERE and accomplished and independent woman, but now that James Bond is on the scene, you're just another notch on the ol' belt."

Okay, I have some other roles for you:
Glenn Close in Air Force One.
Gwyneth Paltrow in Se7en.

Here's another wrinkle, female villains. In action movies, my brother says (and I agree), nobody wants to watch a male hero beating the crap out of a female villain... Whether chivalry isn't truly dead, or that's just no fun, I can't decide. ;)

[Joe Brody]

But does it really keep them from being tag-alongs? I don't think so. If anything, if being a tag-along is an "injury", then tacking a crock of ludicrous credentials on her is an "insult". Isn't that just making it worse?

I agree -- but I think Hollywood would argue its doing a good thing.

(1) Glenn Close played the Vice-President in Air Force One, right? In her own right, that would make her more successful than most successful real-life female leader in U.S. history (Senator Clinton, for the sake of argument).
(2) Gwyneth Paltrow in Se7en was pure victim. She existed purely to add emotional resonance to the climax. I would throw Harrison Ford's wife in the Clancy movies as well. These roles are pretty contemptible. The female lead (such as it is) is simply there to get in harm's way.

As for female villains, my recent favorite is in Sleepy Hollow, where the Miranda Richardon character is mistakenly dismissed as merely being a housewife. Love it. She also takes a good shot in the end.

[Deadlock]

(2) Gwyneth Paltrow in Se7en was pure victim. She existed purely to add emotional resonance to the climax. I would throw Harrison Ford's wife in the Clancy movies as well. These roles are pretty contemptible. The female lead (such as it is) is simply there to get in harm's way.

"Contemptible"? That seems a bit strong. Anne Archer in the Ford Clancy movies is a successful surgeon (going the business card route). Be that as it may, I don't see how she or Gywneth is any more contemptible than Marion, Willie, Lois Lane, Mary Jane, etc. etc.

Furthermore, men end up in victim roles all the time. Are these roles "contemptible" as well?

[Joe Brody]

"Contemptible"? That seems a bit strong. Anne Archer in the Ford Clancy movies is a successful surgeon (going the business card route). Be that as it may, I don't see how she or Gywneth is any more contemptible than Marion, Willie, Lois Lane, Mary Jane, etc. etc.

Furthermore, men end up in victim roles all the time. Are these roles "contemptible" as well?


I say 'contemptible' because the 'victim' character is not a character-type hardly ever written for the male significant-other leading character who plays opposite a leading female (think the two Tomb Raider films).

The victim female characters usually do not share in the action/adventure and their only purpose in the films is to add emotional resonance (to either die or give the hero a mandate -- 'I don't care what you have to do, just stop '). I'd say Marion doesn't fit the 'victim' role because she's first shown surviving alone in a hostile environment and she does O.K. side-by-side with Indy (so she gets betrayed by the monkey -- who would've seen that one coming?). She also gets the best of Indy in the Medallion negotiation -- she clearly knew that the Medallion was valuable because she was wearing it and chose not to tip her hand to Indy. And most significantly, she saves his life in the Raven.

You can make a good argument on Lois Lane being a victim -- I can only remember her hanging from the helicopter and haven't watched a Superman movie since the early '80's -- but she does share in the adventure and is not simply staying at home. Mary Jane is a victim. I don't disagree with you there. Oh, almost forgot -- Willie Scott is the worst lead written for a female since the days of Snydley (sp?) Whiplash.

Sure guy co-stars and supporting characters die all the time -- but I'm mostly focusing on the way certain female roles are written to take advantage of a relationship (romantic or family). Think of how Shakespeare treated Ophelia and Laertes in Hamlet. Upon Polonius's death Ophelia goes mad and dies (her grave give a great setting for one of the great emotional resonance gravity building scenes) whereas Laertes comes back and fights Hamlet. For me there's a big difference between the death of a character like Paltrow's in Se7en and the Goose character's death in 'Top Gun' (hopefully Palehorse is not around to take [I]that discussion in a whole other direction).

[Deadlock]

Joe, after you see Return of the Sith... meet me here.

[Joe Brody]

Joe, after you see Return of the Sith... meet me here.

Is this what you want to talk about:

Finally, Padme. I know she was pregnant with twins and all (and BTW what’s up with her not knowing? Is there no pre-natal care on Coruscant?)… but she was SO marginalized in this movie. EP1, she’s a pistol-packing queen. EP2, slight demotion to pistol-packing senator. EP3, she gets cut down to simpering hair-brusher trapped in a tower like Rapunzel. This problem was only magnified by her death… She died of a broken heart?! Where’s the Leia-esque verve? Doesn’t she want to live for her kids’ sake? Lame.

[jokingly]Please don't tell me that you're gonna use a George Lucas film to support your position.

I don't want you to wait a week -- I've got my brother coming out from California next weekend and I've promised him I'll hold off on seeing it until he gets here.

[Forrestal]

Interesting. I'm not sure the problem is entirely the fault of movies, however.

Who here wants to see a strong female lead who is in every way opposite in appearance to (the admittedly strong character) Lara Croft? That's in essence what I've seen people discussing in the previous threads as being missing from this genre.

The primary target audience for action/adventure movies expect certain things from these sorts of movies. Otherwise, we'd be watching movies like Thelma and Louise.

This is not, however, meant to provide any excuse for characters like Christmas Jones or the film versions of Tiffany Case and Mary Goodnight.
__________________
"You're all like...boys with toys!" ;)

[Pale Horse]

Every time women and film roles get mentioned, I always think of an extremely powerful movie The Contender (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0208874/). This is a film that taps into the double standard of the roles of sexuality and power, and does so in a really compelling way. Not only was Joan Allen nominated for her role as best actress in a leading role, but Jeff Bridges was nominated as best actor, in a supporting role. But I am sure this is the exception to the rule, to be sure.

[Forrestal]

How about we get nothing out of Hollywood but heroines like the Landlady in Kung Fu Hustle? She's pretty opposite the normal strong female character... :D (That's a great action flick, if you haven't seen it.)

[roundshort]

Which of the Hardy Boys girls is fat?

Look Densie Richards can be anything she wants to be in my book . . .

So why does everyone hate Willie, she isn't that type of girl . . .

What really is the point of this thread, do you want strong independent women or not? I think the lesbo film fest in Gurnville has many of these.

[Deadlock]

What really is the point of this thread, do you want strong independent women or not?

What's the point?

My point is that characters, in general, and in this particular case female ones, should be portrayed in a manner that is consistent and reasonable for the story. Character's traits shouldn't be dictated from outside agendas (though the audience's sensibilities should be considered, or completely ignored [depending on the intent of the film]).

[Joe Brody]

Deadlock,

I saw the pretty-pregnant-passive-princess-Padme in Revenge of the Sith this past week-end.

[Deadlock]

So now what do you think of my rantings in the Star Wars thread?

[Joe Brody]

So now what do you think of my rantings in the Star Wars thread?

I think you were dead-on. One of the flaws with the film is that supposedly there's this devasting near-twenty year war being waged (we're told in the opening that there have been 'casualties' on both sides) yet the never-ending morning commute traffic on Coruscant is never disturbed or disrupted. . . . despite huge battles literally being waged over-head. In film, Gone With the Wind goes a long way to defining the word 'epic' for me. So when I see a character like Padme . . . and a supposedly devasting war, I want to see carnage and I want to see a women like Padme surviving in the carnage (like Scarlett in Atlanta or later back on Tara, the family plantation). What I don't want to see is her caged up in some luxury penthouse. So I really agree with you. A real opportunity was missed. The planet should have been blown-up, disrupted and Padme should have been in the middle of it -- even if she was just making clothes for the twins out of curtains in the ruins of senate.

[Pale Horse]

Deadlock,

I saw the pretty-pregnant-passive-princess-Padme in Revenge of the Sith this past week-end.

Now that's alliteration! But is pretty in that sting of Pees working as an adjective, or an adverb?

[Deadlock]

I think you were dead-on. One of the flaws with the film is that supposedly there's this devasting near-twenty year war being waged (we're told in the opening that there have been 'casualties' on both sides) yet the never-ending morning commute traffic on Coruscant is never disturbed or disrupted. . . . despite huge battles literally being waged over-head. In film, Gone With the Wind goes a long way to defining the word 'epic' for me. So when I see a character like Padme . . . and a supposedly devasting war, I want to see carnage and I want to see a women like Padme surviving in the carnage (like Scarlett in Atlanta or later back on Tara, the family plantation). What I don't want to see is her caged up in some luxury penthouse. So I really agree with you. A real opportunity was missed. The planet should have been blown-up, disrupted and Padme should have been in the middle of it -- even if she was just making clothes for the twins out of curtains in the ruins of senate.

Thank you for making the point about the lack of disruption from the war. When talking to my brother, we were joking that the Clone Wars were famous as the first war without consequences. No destruction from ships plummeting to the surface from the collosal battle above Coruscant... Nice.

As I said in the other thread, I felt that a chance to connect the dots between Padme and Leia (courage and resourcefulness in dire circumstances) was completely bypassed.

[Joe Brody]

Thank you for making the point about the lack of disruption from the war. When talking to my brother, we were joking that the Clone Wars were famous as the first war without consequences. No destruction from ships plummeting to the surface from the collosal battle above Coruscant... Nice.

Kinda makes you wonder if A.I. is not a subtle rebuke from Spielberg to Lucas -- I say this because presumably Spielberg knew where Lucas was taking the Stars Wars by making the wars kid-friendly with his use of human stand-ins like robots and clones. Lesson here: if you want to have a film with a bountiful display of severed limbs, you can't have battlefields littered with them.