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Paden
10-13-2005, 01:26 PM
While digging around in the archives, I came across this thread (http://raven.theraider.net/showthread.php?t=5668), where I learned that in the original drafts of the Last Crusade screenplay, the character of "Fedora" was originally named Abner Ravenwood. A quick check at TheRaider (http://www.theraider.net/films/crusade/trivia.php) confirmed this. I realize that since the character's name was changed in the final draft, whether "Fedora" actually is Ravenwood or not appears to be a matter of debate. But I was curious to see if any of the more knowledegable people here knew if the earlier drafts of the script revealed any additional details about Ravenwood, above what we witnessed of "Fedora" in the completed film. Being fairly convinced that Ravenwood is one of the pivotal influences on the development of Indiana Jones, I'm interested to learn more about him (if, in fact, there is anything else to learn. :) )

Oh, and the suggestion of the book club made in the above referenced thread is still an interesting idea.

IndyBuff
10-13-2005, 04:41 PM
Hmmmm....that would be quite an interesting twist, having a grave-robber end up being Indy's friend and mentor as he grew older. I doubt that the character is Abner (I still assume that he's dead, although it has never been proven). The idea is interesting but I'm not sure how well it wold have worked in the overall timeline of Indy's life. Still, the thought is intriuging.:cool:

Paden
10-14-2005, 10:28 AM
Thanks for the well thought out reply, Indy. I can definitely see why it would make sense, in the end result, to let “Fedora” just be a mysterious grave robber, as opposed to Indiana’s future mentor. It keeps the episode we see at the opening of Last Crusade as a formative experience for Indiana, as he discovers his own adventuresome spirit and talents, but doesn’t lessen the mystery of Indiana’s mentorship by Ravenwood, or cross into the continuity of Raiders.

But let’s say, just for the sake of provoking thought, that it is Ravenwood who’s after the Cross of Coronado. In considering the idea, here’s why I think it could be plausible. My impression from Raiders is that there is a certain subset of practitioners of archaeology who are as much mercenaries and grave robbers as they are scientists. Their methods tend to be shadowy and are likely frowned upon by their brethren that are strict adherents to tenets of archaeological science. For these men, results are what matter in the end result: who ends up with the prize. And winning the prize often justifies a great deal, including the use of violence. Counted amongst this shady fraternity are Indiana Jones, Rene Belloq, Forrestal, Marcus Brody, and Abner Ravenwood. (One could also argue, in my mind, for the inclusion of Elsa Schneider as well.) One thing that stands out from watching Raiders numerous times is the fact that all of the members of this select group know one another, either as allies or competitors. What this tells me, by implication, is that the group in question is small. Small enough, at least, for all those involved to know everyone else in the business. In other words, most archaeologists are going to stay on the narrow path of science, conducting digs, carefully collecting artifacts and data, and contributing through writing and presentation to the understanding of history. Only a few are going to become like Jones: adventurers who are willing to risk all to capture a historically significant (and monetarily valuable) prize. (Side note: There are some additional thoughts on the above ideas to be found in this thread (http://raven.theraider.net/showthread.php?t=8091), one in which you were a contributor, Indy.)

Which brings us to Ravenwood. Like Indiana, we know that Ravenwood had an academic position at the University of Chicago. But like Indiana the academic position was secondary to Ravenwood’s true passion, his quest for the Ark of the Covenant. Abner’s daughter, Marion, implies that her father had quite the collection of artifacts, gathered from around the world, related to the Ark. I have always presumed that Ravenwood was of the mercenary type, in part because many of the items he collected remained with him, and weren’t donated to a museum as a “responsible” archaeologist would do. Secondly, I’m inclined to see Ravenwood as a grave robber because of his influence on Indiana. Mind you, I know that Jones is independent and that his own unique personality is responsible for much of the formation of his life’s path. But, just from what we know of Jones’ story, it’s clear that Abner was a highly significant mentor in his life. Given the fact that Henry Jones Sr. was more academically/esoterically minded, it’s clear that Indiana didn’t learn his more hard-edged methods from his father. So it seems logical to assume that Jones learned much of what he knows about the dark world of pseudo-archaeology from Ravenwood. To speculate further, I would even say that it is within the realm of possibility that Ravenwood might have undertaken quests completely unrelated to the Ark, such as the Cross of Coronado, in order to finance adventures related to his primary passion.

As I mentioned above, the circle of mercenaries is small, and only involves a select group of hardy individuals. No doubt at a university like the University of Chicago, Ravenwood had an impact on many students, but I don’t believe that many of them went on to become adventurers like Jones. Only a few (or perhaps just one) entered Ravenwood's "inner circle". Somehow, Jones had to be taken into Ravenwood’s confidence during his studies. Now I’ll agree, Ravenwood might have simply had insight into Jones’ character as he came to know him as a student, and ultimately come to the conclusion that he would make a worthy “apprentice” during the course of their association. But let’s say it was Ravenwood out there in Utah, who gifted the young man who sought to thwart his quest with his own fedora, out of admiration for the youth’s courage and determination. Years later, what would his reaction have been when he spied one of his gifted students wearing that familiar hat? Might not that recognition have served to open the door for Indiana to enter into Abner’s confidence?

Just a thought. Like you, I’m torn on whether it should be Ravenwood in the Last Crusade sequence. But either way, he’s a figure that intrigues me, given his impact on the life of our favorite adventurer.

Deadlock
10-14-2005, 10:42 AM
As another student of all things Ravenwood, I'm also familiar with the Fedora/Ravenwood connection. Unfortunately, I don't know of any additional details revealed about Ravenwood by earlier drafts. Frankly, I'm glad Fedora isn't Ravenwood. While I agree with the depiction of Abner as a grave robber, there are a few things I take exception to regarding Fedora being Ravenwood:

1. Indy dressing like his mentor: I know that Fedora's outfit was meant to be a teaser, to build suspense until we find that River Phoenix is Indy. Even without Fedora being Abner, it is bad enough that Indy's eventual outfit was derivative. But Indy and Abner dressing alike? That makes it SO much worse.

2. All important events in Indy's life happening in 20 minutes at Arches: Once again, it's bad enough that this fluke adventure gives Indy his whip, scar, hat, and lifelong pursuit. But to throw his mentor in as well... That's just TOO much. Indy must have been REALLY impressionable that day. :rolleyes:

Paden, I like all your thoughts on Ravenwood. I think you make a good case of why Fedora COULD be Ravenwood. (I guess I just don't want him to be.) I'd just like to point out that there's nothing about your theories that necessitate Fedora being Ravenwood. Fedora could just have easily been Forrestal.

Jay R. Zay
10-14-2005, 10:58 AM
actually, he rather would. indy and abner got along well until their controversy about marion. would indy get along well with the guy who, as we know from LC, represents quite the opposite of his "this should be in a museum" attitude?

Deadlock
10-14-2005, 11:21 AM
I've never liked the "this belongs in a musuem" refrain. It doesn't mesh with the darker and more mercenary Indy of Raiders. Arguably, Indy does talk about putting the Ark in Marcus' museum, but it doesn't seem to be for the benefit of mankind...

I'm okay with young, idealistic Indy spouting the "museum" line. But I would have much preferred that the eventual retrieval of the Cross of Coronado been fueled by vengeance rather than some moral sensibility.

Paden
10-14-2005, 11:57 AM
1. Indy dressing like his mentor: I know that Fedora's outfit was meant to be a teaser, to build suspense until we find that River Phoenix is Indy. Even without Fedora being Abner, it is bad enough that Indy's eventual outfit was derivative. But Indy and Abner dressing alike? That makes it SO much worse.
Honestly, this is one of the most compelling arguments, in my mind, against "Fedora" being Ravenwood. Although, within my own conception of the Indiana Jones character, I can accept him being influenced strongly by a mentor, Indiana trying to make himself a clone of Ravenwood by imitating his dress doesn't fit with Jones' independent nature. Additionally, one might argue that Jones would be less likely to emulate Ravenwood by the time of the events of Raiders, in light of their "falling out".

I'm not so certain that Abner was the biggest proponent of the "belongs in a museum" philosophy. He obviously collected several antiquities, including the headpiece to the Staff of Ra, that never ended up anywhere near a museum. To stick my toe into the pool of speculation for a moment, this makes me wonder what Ravenwood's own motivations were regarding the Ark of the Covenant. I'm not certain that he simply wanted to find it for mere archaeological preservation.

Additional question: The timeline (http://www.theraider.net/indyjones/timeline/1922_1992.php) at TheRaider indicates that in 1926 Indiana teamed with Abner to retrieve the headpiece to the Staff of Ra. The timeline attributes this information to one of the Dark Horse comics. But given Indiana's familiarity with the staff, isn't it plausible that he did participate in the quest for its retrieval? Is there anything within the actual film canon that alludes to this idea?

IndyBuff
10-14-2005, 12:16 PM
Everyone here has made some excellent points that argue both for and aganist Fedora being Ravenwood. To me, this is one of the reasons why I'm such a big Indy fan, not only because there is so much to debate but also because the character of Indy can be viewed differently by each individual. Some people consider only the films to be valid, while others enjoy the comics, video games, books, and films and see all of those things as canon and part of Indy's life. Each person can decide what they feel is part of the series and what is not and I feel this makes each fan unique. We all know about the same character and his overall life but everyone has their own personal timeline and thoughts on what really happend in Indy's life.

To me, this thread is no different. I find each poster's view fasinating because of the wide range of speculation about Indy and his relationship to Ravenwood. I think the argument of whether Fedora is Ravenwood or not could easily go both ways. I think each person's interpretation of the film and the series in general can make a big difference in the portrayal of Ravenwood and Indy. Either way, I'm anxious to continue the discussion because this is a topic that I never considered until i saw this thread and now I'm trying to learn more about Abner, who I don't know too much about.

And in answer to Paden's question, I have no idea but hopefully someone can explain it because I'd like to know too.:whip:

Deadlock
10-14-2005, 01:26 PM
I'm not so certain that Abner was the biggest proponent of the "belongs in a museum" philosophy. He obviously collected several antiquities, including the headpiece to the Staff of Ra, that never ended up anywhere near a museum. To stick my toe into the pool of speculation for a moment, this makes me wonder what Ravenwood's own motivations were regarding the Ark of the Covenant. I'm not certain that he simply wanted to find it for mere archaeological preservation.

I don't think that Abner was interested in getting stuff to museums at all (unless they were paying well). As Paden already alluded to, remember what Indy says to Marion?

I need one of the pieces your father collected.

Not "the piece" but "one of the pieces". That would seem to indicate a rather substantial number of artifacts (that obviously didn't make it to a museum).

Indy refers to the hunt for Ark being Abner's "obsession". Something for merely monetary gain probably wouldn't advance to the level of obsession. I'm thinking there were very personal reasons that Abner wanted the Ark. I'll posit that Abner's motivation was very much like Belloq's: a search for the divine.


EDIT: This quest for the divine is a recurring theme not only in the Indy films and human history in general, but also here at the Raven (http://raven.theraider.net/showthread.php?p=184905#post184905) it seems. Having solid proof that there is a God... Wow. That's a pretty big deal. I think it's safe to say:

"Men will kill for it. Men like you and I." :)

Paden
10-14-2005, 02:52 PM
Indy refers to the hunt for Ark being Abner's "obsession". Something for merely monetary gain probably wouldn't advance to the level of obsession. I'm thinking there were very personal reasons that Abner wanted the Ark. I'll posit that Abner's motivation was very much like Belloq's: a search for the divine.
An observation, based on this idea (one I would wager has already been made elsewhere on these forums). If we surmise that Abner's interest in the Ark was a quest for the divine, isn't it interesting the parallel that this creates between Abner and Henry Jones Sr., and the two men's respective "obsessions"? Certainly Henry Sr. was not seeking the Holy Grail for financial gain, but for divine "enlightenment". His interest was in the spiritual secrets that the Grail could unveil. If Abner's desire to locate the Ark was tied to obtaining divine knowledge, his motivations were, at their foundation, eerily similar to those of Indiana's father. Interesting to consider the fact that two of the greatest influences on Indiana's life were equally fixated on searching out spiritual mysteries.

Joe Brody
10-14-2005, 03:26 PM
I've been too busy to weigh-in here on this great thread but I don't think Abner's obsession was a search for divine/enlightenment. Watch the Ten Commandments. I'd argue that the relic itself has meaning in divining Abner's motivation. My guess is that Abner was looking for either (1) redemption for past wrongs (Was he a guilty drunk? And what ever happened to Mrs. Ravenwood anyway?), (2) to give a wake-up call to heathen masses and the forces of modernity (note, the University of Chicago was at its roots a Baptist institution -- but I've got more on that later), or a quest for personal glory (to bring the great relic back home to fame and acclaim).

Junior Jones
10-14-2005, 03:45 PM
Additional question: The timeline (http://www.theraider.net/indyjones/timeline/1922_1992.php) at TheRaider indicates that in 1926 Indiana teamed with Abner to retrieve the headpiece to the Staff of Ra. The timeline attributes this information to one of the Dark Horse comics. But given Indiana's familiarity with the staff, isn't it plausible that he did participate in the quest for its retrieval? Is there anything within the actual film canon that alludes to this idea?

Although I can't think anything in the film canon that links Indy to the quest for the Staff of Ra, I agree that he must have had some involvement. Sadly, the comic Paden mentioned, Indiana Jones and the Lost Horizon, can't be used as a source, either. It reached some level of development at Darkhorse, but it was never published.

Deadlock
10-14-2005, 04:01 PM
My guess is that Abner was looking for either (1) redemption for past wrongs (Was he a guilty drunk? And what ever happened to Mrs. Ravenwood anyway?), (2) to give a wake-up call to heathen masses and the forces of modernity (note, the University of Chicago was at its roots a Baptist institution -- but I've got more on that later), or a quest for personal glory (to bring the great relic back home to fame and acclaim).

I like theory #1 a lot, and theory #3 could even play into 1 (if he was seeking a way to salvage his professional reputation).

Interesting question about Mrs. Ravenwood... (Kinda funny to have all these single archaeologist fathers running around. :)) I don't want to indulge in too many stereotypes here... but given Marion's rough and tumble demeanor, I'll postulate that she didn't have much in the way of feminine influence. Who knows? Marion's mother might not have been "Mrs. Ravenwood" at all. Adding "womanizer" to Abner's (mostly unchallenged) identity as a grave robber and (relatively reasonable) reputation as a boozer wouldn't be much of a stretch.

Anyway, here's my theory as to why Abner would end up raising Marion alone: Marion's mom died in childbirth. It might also explain why Abner wasn't too fond of Marion.

I can't say I buy theory number 2, Joe. Too holy-roller for my image of Abner (though I COULD see such an institution kicking Abner out, which would play into the "disgraced archaeologist" theory.)

IndyBuff
10-14-2005, 04:02 PM
Although I can't think anything in the film canon that links Indy to the quest for the Staff of Ra, I agree that he must have had some involvement. Sadly, the comic Paden mentioned, Indiana Jones and the Lost Horizon, can't be used as a source, either. It reached some level of development at Darkhorse, but it was never published.

I'm guessing that Indy must have had something to do with finding the staff, given his knowledge and familiarity with it that Paden and Junior Jones already mentioned but there's nothing in the books or films that says so. We know that both Indiana and Ravenwood found the headpiece but the staff is sort of a mystery. Perhaps they both found it together or maybe Ravenwood had it and it was later taken by Indy. It would certainly make for some good fan fiction.:)

Deadlock
10-14-2005, 04:17 PM
Interesting to consider the fact that two of the greatest influences on Indiana's life were equally fixated on searching out spiritual mysteries.

Personally, I think this symmetry would be apropos. Obsession (and the reasonable conclusion: willingness to do anything) is a thread weaved throughout the films... a thread linking both good guys and bad guys.

"Hitler's a nut on the subject. Crazy. He's obsessed with the occult."

"Men will kill for it. Men like you and I."

"I knew you'd sell your mother for an Etruscan vase. But I didn't know you'd sell your country and your soul to the slime of humanity."

"Don't look at me like that-we both wanted the Grail, I would have done anything to get it. You would have done the same."

"This is an obsession, Dad!"

The final piece to complete this drama about obsession would be Indy following in the footsteps of his father figures... Indiana gets his very own in Indy 4.

Joe Brody
10-14-2005, 04:25 PM
The final piece to complete this drama about obsession would be Indy following in the footsteps of his father figures... Indiana gets his very own in Indy 4.

Impressive collection of quotes. You have true mastery of the scripts.

As for Indy having an obsession, on several occassions I've said:



I'd bet a dollar that there will a Don Quixote reference or allusion in Indy IV.

And aren't we all out chasing windmills?

Pale Horse
10-14-2005, 07:40 PM
(Kinda funny to have all these single archaeologist fathers running around. :))


What, you want them to have their mummies with them? :sick: :p :dead:

TombReader
10-14-2005, 11:39 PM
Also in ROTLA,Indy comments that Abner 'did the first serious work on Tanis',and'collected some of its relics',so there is a very strong chance that Indy was with Abner when he was doing this.Of course,'very strong chance' still isn't exactly canon.

When the Army intelligence guys think that Ravenwood may be a Nazi,Marcus is quick to disagree and Indy's disagreement could be implied by his line about the Nazi's wanting something that Abner has.In other words,it seems that Indy still respects Ravenwood and that maybe their falling-out was not a professional one(which we know it wasn't),and I'm not sure that I believe Indy would try and steal artifacts from people that he respected.

Paden
10-15-2005, 12:40 AM
I've been too busy to weigh-in here on this great thread but I don't think Abner's obsession was a search for divine/enlightenment. Watch the Ten Commandments. I'd argue that the relic itself has meaning in divining Abner's motivation. My guess is that Abner was looking for either (1) redemption for past wrongs (Was he a guilty drunk? And what ever happened to Mrs. Ravenwood anyway?), (2) to give a wake-up call to heathen masses and the forces of modernity (note, the University of Chicago was at its roots a Baptist institution -- but I've got more on that later), or a quest for personal glory (to bring the great relic back home to fame and acclaim).
I'm going to echo Deadlock in saying that of these theories, I find the first the most compelling. In part because the idea of redemption ties in with the role that the Ark played historically in the lives of the Hebrew people. Leviticus 16:15 (NKJV): "Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering, which is for the people, bring its blood inside the veil, do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and before the mercy seat." On the Jewish Day of Atonement, the High Priest would enter the Holy of Holies in the Tabernacle and sprinkle the blood of the goat on the mercy seat (the space on the lid of the Ark between the two kneeling cherubim) as an offering for the sins of the people, in order to obtain reconciliation with God. Abner, as intimately aware as he was about the Ark and its history, certainly knew that this was one of its primary functions in the spiritual life of the Hebrews. Given some of the things that have been conjectured about his life, he undoubtedly had many regrets and may well have craved forgiveness, seeing the Ark as a means to obtain it. I can't keep from considering the ironic thought that the source of some of Abner's ostensible guilt (grave robbing, violence, the neglect of his family) stemmed from his quest for the very object he believed could provide him with redemption.

I'm curious to hear your thoughts on the second theory, Joe, particularly those that tie into the Baptist background of the university. If Abner was seeking to shake up society through divine judgment, I'm inclined to guess his motivation was not based on religious conviction, but on his own subjective assessment of the corruption he saw in society, in relation to other historical eras where he believed that justice and morality were held as a higher priority. Certainly the "roaring twenties", when I estimate much of Abner's quest of the Ark transpired, was a time of widespread self-absorption and moral ambiguity. It's interesting to juxtapose this theory of Ravenwood's motive with the concept of him as a mercenary. Perhaps for Abner the ultimate good of the Ark's impact on a morally collapsing world was worth the questionable means required to obtain it.

The third theory opens up, in my mind, further questions about Abner. I've been prone to view Abner as a rather confident figure, but perhaps he viewed himself as a failure. As a young man, the mercenary path promised fortune and fame, but with age and experience, maybe Ravenwood wished he had kept to pure science, bitterly aware that had he done so, he could have contributed to others' historical understanding, rather that chasing the empty promise of glory around the globe. As Deadlock suggests, capturing the Ark would exonerate Abner in the eyes of his colleagues and, more importantly, in his own. Finishing the quest would provide him with a sense of meaning, and make all of the sacrifices and regrets worthwhile.

The final piece to complete this drama about obsession would be Indy following in the footsteps of his father figures... Indiana gets his very own in Indy 4.
I agree. To me, part of the theme of Last Crusade was Indiana being reconciled to his father. The fractured relationship between he and Henry Sr. was healed. It's fitting that in the last chapter, Indiana has to find peace with himself.

Jay R. Zay
10-15-2005, 07:22 AM
What, you want them to have their mummies with them? :sick: :p :dead:

This joke seems to be not Indiana Jones related or not funny. Please get back to funny jokes or we will have to delete your replies from now on.

:p

IndyBuff
10-15-2005, 01:45 PM
When the Army intelligence guys think that Ravenwood may be a Nazi,Marcus is quick to disagree and Indy's disagreement could be implied by his line about the Nazi's wanting something that Abner has.In other words,it seems that Indy still respects Ravenwood and that maybe their falling-out was not a professional one(which we know it wasn't),and I'm not sure that I believe Indy would try and steal artifacts from people that he respected.

That has generally been my opinion too. Although Indy and Ravenwood did have a falling-out it seems that Indy still puts Ravenwood in high regard and considers him a worthy expert on the Ark and the headpiece to the Staff of Ra. I do wonder, however, if Ravenwood felt the same way about Indy.:confused:

Pale Horse
10-15-2005, 02:52 PM
The final piece to complete this drama about obsession would be Indy following in the footsteps of his father figures... Indiana gets his very own in Indy 4.

Impressive collection of quotes. You have true mastery of the scripts.

As for Indy having an obsession, on several occassions I've said:



I'd bet a dollar that there will a Don Quixote reference or allusion in Indy IV.

And aren't we all out chasing windmills?

To that end, what would be worthy of Indy's obssession? The only thing we have to go on to this point of the trilogy is Fortune and Glory. It is the one thing he hasn't experienced to this point, and as he comes to the end of his life, maybe that is what he longs for. A shotty professor whose only accolades are smitten females and apple kissing males vying for recognition? A black market archeologist who can't even acquire a legimate piece of history through traditional means? To tie in the father/mentor aspect with Henry and Ravenwood...is he Ray Kinsella and his cornfield dig would be to find Tut's tomb with the two men who meant the most to him?

This joke seems to be not Indiana Jones related or not funny. Please get back to funny jokes or we will have to delete your replies from now on.

:p

point taken, I quess I'll have to get a bit funnier from now on, it's just not really a domineering mods style...

roundshort
10-17-2005, 05:45 PM
Sorry to enter late here but,

I look at Fedora as an inspiration to young Indy, the way he dressed, using hired hands (probably local, given the make up of his crew, a ute Indian, a kid, etc, not the professional student hands used on official digs). When Indy realized he wanted to be a grave robber whne he grew up he looked at Fedora as his inspiration, because he was an anit-Henry Jones. We know Indy was not thrilled with his childhood relationship with his father (insert deep quote from LC here). So when he ran into Fedora, that was as far from what Indy grew up and took him as a role model (hate to think Indy was ever so simple-minded but he was a kid).

Ravenwood on the other hand was probably someone in the middle. Not the strict by the book, Henry Jones type, but as not the rouge Fedora. I am sure Indy had a close student professor relationship with Abner and learned a lot about research and field digs, but always kept the graverobber image of Fedora with him.

Maybe Indy and Ravenwood's falling out was a bit deeper than just the broad (and yes ToJ, I am sure Ravenwood resented Indy for laying the pipe). I wonder if the falling out was a bit of guilt Indy had on his "own methods" of field research, which were not like Ravenwood, and he did not want Abner to see that Indy had become nothing more than a grave robber with a Profeesor gig. I feel Indy let Marion be an excuse to tear away from Abner and his father, only Marcus was willing to turn the other way and provide Indy with pay. We know from LC that Marcus was not really good at anything, heck he even got laost in his own Museum. So Marcus i am sure was just happy to have a steady flow of "good objects" coming in and would not ask questions that Henry or Abner would have asked. I wonder if Indy was ashamed of his methods and motives, and let himself be a loner and lose contact witht he people close to him. I don not think Abner was a rough and tumble type like Indy, but if they want to make Indy IV the quest for Ravenwood, then the back story might be better if he was.

roundshort
10-20-2005, 04:40 PM
See this is what I am talking about, this was a great Indy thread about Indy, and it just dies, while the Birthday page keeps going, why?

TombReader
10-20-2005, 09:23 PM
So,should we change the format of this site from Indy to birthdays?

Joe Brody
10-21-2005, 10:52 PM
[W]hat would be worthy of Indy's obssession? The only thing we have to go on to this point of the trilogy is Fortune and Glory.

I have argued that Indy's obssession should arise from a past mistake -- most likely a mistake made during the Fortune and Glory years. That's why I think Indy IV will revolve around a story in which Indy's task is to return (or repatriate) an artifact.

Think of Indy's lifelong obsession with the Cross of Coronado. In the beginning of Last Crusade, we see the last moment of Indy's childhood and its youthful idealism ("that artifacts belongs in a musuem"). But like all teens Indy becomes a hell-raiser. Like all teens he pushes his limits and this takes him down the deviant grave-robber route, which includes the ToD and Raiders years. By the time of the main Last Crusade story, however, thirty/forty something Indy re-captures part of his youth (he gets to be Junior again with the added bonus of being validated by Dad -- as we've discussed in other threads) and we witness Indy finally and trully displaying an unequivocal (abd more mature) do-the-right-thing mature realism (whish echoes the young idealism).

So what's left to our aging self-actualized hero? To make amends for past wrongs.

But these 'past-wrong' theories have been the subject of other threads. I was just sitting here trying to get my thoughts straight on Ravenwood and I wanted to reply on this point. If we're close to shooting (Pale Horse?), there are few days left to spin all these random theories.

Paden
10-21-2005, 11:57 PM
To toss in an aside, I tend to agree with what you say, Joe, in the sense that I've always felt that a fourth film necessitates Indiana putting to rest his inner demons, which are hinted at, particularly in Raiders. It's always been difficult for me to envision Indiana becoming obsessed with an artifact as, in my view, Indiana's "fortune and glory" mindset was put to rest in Last Crusade with his response to the line, "Indiana...let it go." Just as Deadlock has indicated in reference to his screenplay, while obsession is a dominating theme in the trilogy, the final chapter should turn Indy's obsession to satisfying a desperate inner need, such as atonement. The "prize", as it were, should be some kind of means to this end. (Side note: If the object of the quest is a means to redemption, how interesting that said motivation matches one of the theories that you proposed regarding Ravenwood's pursuit of the Ark.)

Pale Horse
10-22-2005, 12:40 PM
That's why I think Indy IV will revolve around a story in which Indy's task is to return (or repatriate) an artifact.

I have always felt that there should be a screenplay where Indiana has to Return (http://raven.theraider.net/showthread.php?t=7734) the Ark (http://raven.theraider.net/showthread.php?t=2964)...

Joe Brody
10-22-2005, 01:29 PM
I have always felt that there should be a screenplay where Indiana has to Return (http://raven.theraider.net/showthread.php?t=7734) the Ark (http://raven.theraider.net/showthread.php?t=2964)...

You might be right -- but it would be tampering with one of the greatest endings in film history. I like the Ark in the warehouse, forgotten.

roundshort
10-22-2005, 02:24 PM
Joe, you might have hit on something Lucas can not do and that is leave well enough alone! Hopefully the creative folks can make a new scrpit that does not need to feed off the older stories, but with the threat/promise of the women returning it makes sense that they will revist an older story. But, this thread has seemed to gotten off topic and may need to be moved to Indy IV, right pale?

Paden
10-22-2005, 08:01 PM
You might be right -- but it would be tampering with one of the greatest endings in film history. I like the Ark in the warehouse, forgotten.
Because of this fitting ending, I'm torn on the issue of the Ark making a second appearance. On one hand, I could see how the Ark could bring the series full circle, as its strong connection to Ravenwood remains one of the unresolved threads in the series. On the other hand, the Ark's disappearance into its dusty, lonely destination is somehow chillingly appropriate in its implied finality. In some respect I would like to see Indy come to a peace about both Marion and his old mentor in the final film, whether it involved the Ark of the Covenant or not.

Joe Brody
10-23-2005, 10:06 AM
And wouldn't it be tough to do a 'Rescue the Ark' without touching on the whole Right of Return issue? With things still touch & go with Israel, I just don't see it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_return

[Jokingly, with all these female casting rumors, I think Indy's gonna find some Amazon Island.]

Deadlock
10-24-2005, 12:39 PM
Hey, Joe. Quick question: how would you see this "repatriation" plot working (not the Ark necessarily, but some other relic)?

Given the expectations of Indy doing some "archaeology" (or just avoiding some quasi-implausible booby traps), how would you have him return an already-found artifact? Wouldn’t that preclude the usual ancient secrets and replace them with more contemporary pitfalls?

Do you have a way to accomplish this type of story and hold true to the Indy establishment? Or are you retooling Indy as Mission: Impossible or Ocean’s Eleven?

Joe Brody
10-24-2005, 05:45 PM
Hey, Joe. Quick question: how would you see this "repatriation" plot working (not the Ark necessarily, but some other relic)?

Given the expectations of Indy doing some "archaeology" (or just avoiding some quasi-implausible booby traps), how would you have him return an already-found artifact? Wouldn’t that preclude the usual ancient secrets and replace them with more contemporary pitfalls?

Do you have a way to accomplish this type of story and hold true to the Indy establishment? Or are you retooling Indy as Mission: Impossible or Ocean’s Eleven?

I may break off 'repatriation as a theme' into a separate Indy IV thread.

But quickly, I see Indy getting the artifact in the beginning of the film (first 40%) and then the relic changing hands (like the Grail Diary) several times before the ending. Scoring the relic off the bad guy would likely involve some set piece -- except I'd hope it would be more creative than MI or Ocean's 11.

Notably, ToD has a repatriation theme -- getting the stone back to its rightful owners. Today, archaeology is pre-occupied with getting works that were wrongly plundered back to their nation of origin -- so I think it would be a good, timely story. But I'd hate to see some race-against-the-clock-or-the-world-blows-up storyline. Save that for Lara Croft -- but I do think the story should have some consequence if the relic is not restored.

There should be some menace -- other than the competiting human adversary but it shouldn't echo the challenges in LC. Pirates of the Caribbean also had a repatriation story (with ghosts no less) that would've worked just fine for the ending of the Raiders series.

[I'll get this back on-topic and get my Ravenwood post up tonight or tomorrow.]

roundshort
10-24-2005, 06:01 PM
What is Marion is the one who steals the ark to return it, I don't know, maybe to reconnect with her father, or it is her father who is not really dead, and Indy has to go "rescue the ark" hmmm . . .

Paden
10-27-2005, 02:22 PM
If we run with the idea that Ravenwood isn't deceased, perhaps he, or those in his employ, remove the Ark from its storage in an effort to return it to a sacred site, such as the remnants of the temple mound in Israel. Ravenwood's motive might be to complete a ritual consistent with those performed on the Day of Atonement, perhaps believing that doing so will provide him with the absolution he craves. Jones is contacted to pursue the Ark due to his prior experience with it, and has to unravel the mystery of who has taken it and for what purpose. Were this to take place in the forties/fifties, the fledgling Israeli government could serve as a foil for both sides, interfering in the business of the interlopers on their soil, certain that they are intent on stealing or defacing national sites and treasures.

roundshort
10-27-2005, 02:41 PM
Hmm, I like this, maybe a very dark, almost religous zealot Ravenwood, that has lost all sense of relaity, since he heard about the ark being discoverd etc. . .
Now, all we have to do is figure out how Jar-Jar is involved, George?

Joe Brody
10-27-2005, 03:16 PM
If we run with the idea that Ravenwood isn't deceased, perhaps he, or those in his employ, remove the Ark from its storage in an effort to return it to a sacred site, such as the remnants of the temple mound in Israel. Ravenwood's motive might be to complete a ritual consistent with those performed on the Day of Atonement, perhaps believing that doing so will provide him with the absolution he craves. Jones is contacted to pursue the Ark due to his prior experience with it, and has to unravel the mystery of who has taken it and for what purpose. Were this to take place in the forties/fifties, the fledgling Israeli government could serve as a foil for both sides, interfering in the business of the interlopers on their soil, certain that they are intent on stealing or defacing national sites and treasures.


That's the single best Treatment that I've seen for an Indy IV. Except I wouldn't have Jones 'contacted to pursue the Ark'. Instead I'd have him haunted/tormented by a ghoulish Belloq -- which signals to Indy that someone is tampering with the Ark. Paden, you cracked the Israel dilemma nicely.

roundshort
10-27-2005, 03:25 PM
I don;t know if we want Indy haunted, but the need for him to act would have to be to save a possed Abner, the last movie he became reaquinted with his estranged father, this could be his reaquaitnce with his estrange mentor, we can call it

Indiana Jones, The Last Crusade, we mean it this time!

Come on Joe, i had the idea first . . .

Deadlock
10-27-2005, 04:23 PM
Here's my question: If Abner's alive, (and was in 1936) why didn't he involve himself in the proceedings of Raiders? The man had deep knowledge of Egypt and numerous connections there, I'm sure. So with the discovery of Tanis (which wasn't kept quiet, what with "every digger in Cairo" being there), if Ravenwood had still wanted the Ark, don't you think he would have turned up down there?

Perhaps he did go there, only to be too late. Or perhaps he no longer cared about the Ark... Once again, I think Abner's motives are paramount here.

Joe Brody
10-27-2005, 04:39 PM
Here's my question: If Abner's alive, (and was in 1936) why didn't he involve himself in the proceedings of Raiders?

[Questioningly]Because Abner's other all-consuming passion was Shangri-La? Which I'm guessing he found and that's where he spent the 40's?

Deadlock
10-27-2005, 05:18 PM
Yeah, the supposed Ark/Nepal connection... That has ALWAYS bugged me. I've never heard of a plausible connection linking the two.

An earlier draft of the Raiders script made it sound like he was actively pursuing something related to the Ark there in Nepal, and was lost in an avalanche. but without that solid connection on-screen, you could posit that Abner had moved onto some other project (Shangri-la perhaps? :) ).

Paden
10-27-2005, 05:40 PM
If Ravenwood's quest for the Ark was, in actuality, a quest for some kind of inner peace, I think it's plausible that he could have encountered something in the Himalayan wilderness that, when coupled with years of being unable to finally lay hands on the "prize", could have steered Ravenwood in a new direction, pursuing something else that he believed could satisfy his soul. Or alternatively, he could have become an embittered hermit following a brush with death in Nepal, convinced that the Ark was unattainable and wanting nothing more to do with the world. If he was isolated, or embroiled in another quest, perhaps some time could have passed before he came to know that Jones had located the Ark. And, given that it was hidden away by the U.S. government, it could take several more years to locate it once again.

EDIT: The haunting by Belloq is an interesting idea and it really makes sense. Although Belloq certainly didn't care for Jones, his words to him in the Cairo saloon indicate that he had respect for him as a competitor. If the Ark were disturbed, Jones would be the one Belloq's tormented soul would seek out, recognizing that Jones respected the Ark's power and was the only one skillful enough to retrieve it a second time.

Joe Brody
10-27-2005, 09:37 PM
The haunting by Belloq is an interesting idea and it really makes sense. Although Belloq certainly didn't care for Jones, his words to him in the Cairo saloon indicate that he had respect for him as a competitor. If the Ark were disturbed, Jones would be the one Belloq's tormented soul would seek out, recognizing that Jones respected the Ark's power and was the only one skillful enough to retrieve it a second time.

Twisted Belloq would actually blame Indiana Jones for his tortured afterlife.

Joe Brody
10-27-2005, 11:03 PM
Come on Joe, i had the idea first . . .

roundshort, I hear you -- but Ark related stories have been kicked around for some time here. I just like the way Paden handled Ravenwood and the Israel issue -- which would be treat the Isreali's as wildcards who meddle with both sides (interesting that Spielberg is doing the Munich film which purportedly doesn't shy away from Israel's more, shall we say ambiguous actions).

qwerty
10-10-2006, 01:01 PM
For all of those who can not find any intelegent subject here at the Raven bar here is a treat.
Once again. Well said Paden.

ClintonHammond
10-10-2006, 01:27 PM
A treat for certain.... but a year old treat.

It might stand better as an example how this place has slumped of late.
(If indeed you agree at all that it has slumped)

chapter11
10-16-2007, 03:14 PM
Just saw this on Wikipedia (so take it for what it's worth): "Although Abner Ravenwood (Marion's father) is never shown in any of the films, the prologue of an early draft of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade denotes the man in the Fedora hat as Abner."

Anyone know if this is true?

Attila the Professor
10-16-2007, 03:19 PM
Yeah, that's always seemed to be true, although not really all that sensible, to my way of thinking.

Violet
10-16-2007, 08:07 PM
There was a thread about this in the archives here... Not bothered to link it now.

But yeah, I did find that interesting but I don't think in the final film it is Abner. Plus a bit weird if Indy went around dressing up like Marion's father. Lucas and Spielberg have used left-overs from the previous films before, so I guess that's where the speculation that Abner is in KOTCS.

Finn
10-17-2007, 03:27 AM
There was a thread about this in the archives here... Not bothered to link it now. http://raven.theraider.net/showthread.php?t=8345

It's coincidentally fittingly named, if you ask me.

indy34
10-17-2007, 04:59 AM
I doubt that it was Abner. Abner probably would have been the same as Indy "It belongs in a museum!" were as that guy was doing it for money.

Violet
10-17-2007, 06:24 AM
http://raven.theraider.net/showthread.php?t=8345

It's coincidentally fittingly named, if you ask me.

Lol. I thought the name of this thread was familiar. :rolleyes:

The Stranger
10-17-2007, 02:50 PM
Uhm... I really don't know... all I can say is that I remember quite clearly one thing that happens when Indy and his friend are hidden on the top of the cavern, spying the four treasure hunters. The young blonde guy who works for Fedora finds the Cross of Coronado and he brings it to him, screaming "I've found something Kurt (?) look what I've found!!" etc...

I've never understood what name exactly he says, but I remember something like "Kurt", or "Karth" maybe... does any other of you remember this thing?

Finn
10-17-2007, 03:50 PM
The name he calls out is "Garth". And it's most likely directed to Fedora.

It still doesn't mean however that it wouldn't possibly be Abner. Perhaps he was sort of working undercover, pretending to be one of Panama Hat's men and ready to let the Cross slide out of his hands because he had a bigger prize in his sights? It's a little far-fetched, I know, but would perfectly fit the mystery Fedora is. He appears to be nothing more than a mercenary, but seems to act very honorably towards Indy at the same time.

There's not much in the moral angle either. After all, Indy pulled off a pretty similar stunt when he was willing to let Nurhachi go for the diamond in ToD.

NOTE: There's no canonical evidence whatsoever to back up this little plotline I just came up with. Simply playing around with the idea.

blueseattle
12-08-2007, 09:15 PM
The idea of it being Ravenwood would have been cool, had they fully intended it to be that way and thus developed the character to be indeed just that. However, I like it being some random explorer that obviously influenced Indiana.

However, the trick of it being an unknown explorer rather than Indy never worked on me. Even at the age of five in theaters, I knew Phoenix was Indiana. It's weird.

That was intentional, right? To make us believe that was Indiana, until he pulls his hat up and the other boyscout says, "Indiana."

Michael24
12-09-2007, 03:45 AM
Funny you mention that. At the time, I remember knowing River Phoenix was an actor who would be appearing as Indiana Jones in the new film. But I hadn't seen him before and had no idea what he looked like. So I thought it was Indiana in the cave until Fedora revealed his face. And I remember in the car afterwards on the way home saying, "Where was River Phoenix?" and my parents laughing and saying, "He played Indy in the whole opening."

Duh! LOL!!!!

Osceola
12-09-2007, 09:45 AM
That was intentional, right? To make us believe that was Indiana, until he pulls his hat up and the other boyscout says, "Indiana."
Yes, it was intentional. That's also why don't tell you the year until then. If they told us the year, we would know that that man is too old to be Indy at that time, and thus we would expect a young Indy. That's also the reason why we don't see his face.

No Ticket
12-09-2007, 07:55 PM
Seems like too much of a stretch that he would be his mentor later on. I always liked the idea that this chance encounter with a stranger who was a "bad guy" made Indy kind of want to be like him.

Still, was a cool idea, although I seriously doubt it's supposed to be Abner in LC.

indyflys_solo
02-15-2008, 11:17 PM
Hmm, I like this, maybe a very dark, almost religous zealot Ravenwood, that has lost all sense of relaity, since he heard about the ark being discoverd etc. . .
Now, all we have to do is figure out how Jar-Jar is involved, George?

I know I'm entering into this reeaally late, but I couldn't resist: that's funny, roundshort. And I just want you guys to know I have a great amount of respect for you delving into the story like this... it's really impressive. And I'm sure Marion would really appreciate your caring enough about her dad to do a 5-page thread on his history. I like all your theories, but let me throw mine out there just for kicks:

I like the idea of "Fedora" being Abner; I hadn't thought of that before (although I had heard the script bit about Fedora's real name being Abner Ravenwood). I don't remember who it was (it may have been Paden), but one of you guys volunteered a theory that it was Abner and he recognized Indy years later by the hat. I really like that, although I don't know if I believe it. I don't think Abner was a real fanatic, although I believe his "obsession" with Tanis and the Ark was similar to Henry Jones Sr.'s Grail obsession. I think he taught Indy part of his "dark side of archaeology" thing, but I also think part of it was just Indy's inate proclivity for adventure.
I think the "falling-out" had more to do with Marion than archaeology, actually...

Someone once asked me what happened between Marion and Indy, and I pretty much said that they probably quarrelled about something stupid and ended up bitter and separate. But now, I don't know. I think they may have quarrelled, but it wasn't over something stupid. Something very big happened between them, and I don't know what it was. Lucas may not even know. But something happened; this is apparent just by their dialogue in the Raven Bar scene:

I learned to hate you in the last ten years!
I never meant to hurt you.
I was a child; I was in love. It was wrong and you knew it!
You knew what you were doing.
Now I do!


And in the Cairo marketplace, more proof of the fact that Marion was the reason for the "falling out":

Dad had you figured out a long time ago. He said you were a bum.
Oh, he's bein' generous.
The most gifted bum he ever trained. He loved you like a son, you know. Took a hell of a lot for you to alienate him.
Not much, just you.

I like the idea of reclaiming the Ark... you know, I watched the trailer today for Indy 4 and there was a scene in a warehouse...

Yeah, well. That's my two cent's worth. Keep up the awesome thread, guys... Marion would be proud!

No Ticket
02-16-2008, 01:33 AM
If you start connecting stuff like Fedora actually being Abner in LC... you start going down the ridiculous route of connecting everyone to everything like what the prequels did for Star Wars.

Darth Vader built C-3PO?!?! Hahaha.

ReggieSnake
02-16-2008, 01:41 AM
If you start connecting stuff like Fedora actually being Abner in LC... you start going down the ridiculous route of connecting everyone to everything like what the prequels did for Star Wars.

Darth Vader built C-3PO?!?! Hahaha.That brings back memories of Darth Vader rolling around on the ground in a flowery meadow.:sick:

Moedred
02-16-2008, 01:18 PM
I prefer to suspect Dr. Fantasy (of the magic caboose) is Willie's magician grandfather, but then things get a little too Dickensian. (Though there's no such thing when it comes to the YIJC.)

Attila the Professor
02-16-2008, 03:46 PM
I prefer to suspect Dr. Fantasy (of the magic caboose) is Willie's magician grandfather, but then things get a little too Dickensian. (Though there's no such thing when it comes to the YIJC.)
Well played, sir.

Falcon
11-04-2008, 11:47 AM
I received issue #4 of the Indiana Jones magazine yesterday, and on page 42, under the heading "The Man in the Hat", it stated that an early draft of the Last Crusade script had the character "Fedora" as being Abner Ravenwood, Marion's father. That's the first I have ever heard of that concept. Very intriguing, though I wonder how that would play out as Abner was subsequently Indy's Archaeology professor at the University of Chicago. Anyone else heard of this before?

Stoo
11-04-2008, 12:58 PM
Yep. Here's one of the threads talking about it:
Abner Ravenwood in The Last Crusade (http://raven.theraider.net/showthread.php?t=8345&highlight=Abner)

oki9Sedo
11-04-2008, 01:02 PM
I always thought he was Abner up until a couple of years ago. I really can't remember where I got that idea, it was just something I always took as fact for years until I discovered there is in fact no basis for it.

IndyFan89
11-04-2008, 04:14 PM
I choose to believe it is Abner, he's kind of the Ben Kenobi figure to Indy and was a heavy influence on him.

He's so different from his father that Abner becomes his father figure and where Indy learns all his tricks. Stuff like the gear and so forth could have come from Abner too. It's a cool little story element if you think about it.

It's like Mutt, i thought Mutt should have been more like Connery, leaving Indy to be the outcast lol.

Wilhelm
11-04-2008, 05:35 PM
In another Spielberg movie from the 80s "Young Sherlock Holmes", Holmes get his hat from his old mentor Professor Waxflatter. Maybe Spielberg remembered that idea for the opening of LC, so it's possible that Fedora was Abner.

Stoo
11-04-2008, 05:58 PM
One of the henchmen, Roscoe (the red-headed kid) calls him Garth so it's not Abner. Check out the subtitles
and click to this good, little thread below to find out where Indy does meet "Fedora" again!

Anybody wish Indy would have met "Fedora" again? (http://raven.theraider.net/showthread.php?t=14839&highlight=Garth)

IndyJr.
11-04-2008, 09:23 PM
As another student of all things Ravenwood, I'm also familiar with the Fedora/Ravenwood connection. Unfortunately, I don't know of any additional details revealed about Ravenwood by earlier drafts. Frankly, I'm glad Fedora isn't Ravenwood. While I agree with the depiction of Abner as a grave robber, there are a few things I take exception to regarding Fedora being Ravenwood:

1. Indy dressing like his mentor: I know that Fedora's outfit was meant to be a teaser, to build suspense until we find that River Phoenix is Indy. Even without Fedora being Abner, it is bad enough that Indy's eventual outfit was derivative. But Indy and Abner dressing alike? That makes it SO much worse.

2. All important events in Indy's life happening in 20 minutes at Arches: Once again, it's bad enough that this fluke adventure gives Indy his whip, scar, hat, and lifelong pursuit. But to throw his mentor in as well... That's just TOO much. Indy must have been REALLY impressionable that day. :rolleyes:

Paden, I like all your thoughts on Ravenwood. I think you make a good case of why Fedora COULD be Ravenwood. (I guess I just don't want him to be.) I'd just like to point out that there's nothing about your theories that necessitate Fedora being Ravenwood. Fedora could just have easily been Forrestal.

Well technically, all he got was the KNOWLEDGE of how to use a whip and his hat. Besides that, he's always been interested in archeology (see The Young Indiana Jones Chronicles, Chapter 1 - 5). In the very first Chapter he mentioned he'd like to be an archeologist, THAT is where it started in terms of lifelong pursuit (of a career)... if you're talking about his lifelong pursuit after the Cross of Coronado, then that's different... but even then, so what? It's not entirely out of the question that someone might use a weapon, gain a hat, and start his life long search for a Cross all in the same day... Knowledge, Material and a Crusade all in one day... wow, not very hard to do. I've done so myself. :p

Darth Vile
11-05-2008, 03:18 AM
I always thought he was Abner up until a couple of years ago. I really can't remember where I got that idea, it was just something I always took as fact for years until I discovered there is in fact no basis for it.

Me too. It's not a recent thing as it was widely circulated and discussed prior to the release of TLC - in the 1980's. And because the movie never actually mentioned his name, I'd just assumed that he was indeed Abner... and it was a little nod from Lucas/Spielberg to Raiders.

I think I actually prefer him being Abner, even if nothing is made of it...

Stoo
11-05-2008, 06:45 AM
And because the movie never actually mentioned his name, I'd just assumed that he was indeed Abner...Actually, it does and his name is Garth. (Granted, the mention is not that easy to make out but it's there.)

Lao_Che
11-13-2008, 03:05 PM
One of the henchmen, Roscoe (the red-headed kid) calls him Garth so it's not Abner. Check out the subtitles
and click to this good, little thread below to find out where Indy does meet "Fedora" again!

Anybody wish Indy would have met "Fedora" again? (http://raven.theraider.net/showthread.php?t=14839&highlight=Garth)

Both the subtitles in the 2003 and 2008 DVDs say Fedora for me but the Last Crusade junior novel has Garth. At least it confirms who Roscoe is directing the line at. Now... which one's Alfred? ;)

RaiderMitch
11-13-2008, 04:02 PM
There was a German novel where Indy meets up with Fedora again in the 1940s and he had the name Roscoe I believe....

Stoo
11-13-2008, 07:31 PM
Both the subtitles in the 2003 and 2008 DVDs say Fedora for me but the Last Crusade junior novel has Garth. At least it confirms who Roscoe is directing the line at. Now... which one's Alfred? Hmm...I'll have to check mine again because I don't have the jr. novel. Alfred? He must be the older, cowboy-type guy.

Hey, Mitchell. Check out the link I posted above where we talked about that very story. Apparently, the guy's name is Jake.
Based on these 2 translated passages, he is either "Fedora" or "Half-Breed" (or Garth Jake Fedora is also half-caste and you can't tell)!

It was Jake, the Half-Breed! The same man, whom Indy would recognize anywhere, from a long time ago and another place, but in a situation not dissimilar to this one. At the time, Indiana surprised Jake and his cronies while they were looting a grave containing the famous Cross of Coronado. And it was perhaps the first time that Indiana received a taste of what his life would later become.

This man had taught Indy his first major defeat. But it had also changed his life, perhaps more than any other before or after it...
Yes, Jake is definetely identified by the following sentence: "It was him, no doubt. The face had aged over the decades but not as much as Indy had expected. It still expressed toughness and a little sympathy, something Indiana only remembered too well. On his head there used to be an old fedora, the same one that had accompanied Indiana on so many adventures from that day on." I think that clearly identifies Jake/Garth as Fedora.

Goodeknight
04-25-2011, 08:58 AM
Came across and article that said the role of Fedora in LC was originally written as Abner Ravenwood.

http://pompousfilmsnob.com/2010/10/25/the-man-who-made-indiana-jones-fedora/

Is that true? I can't take the article at face value, because the writer goes on to say Ox is Abner in CS.

In the original script the character of Fedora was originally Abner Ravenwood who was later played by John Hurt in “The Kingdom of the Crystal Skulls” who was the father of Marion (Karen Allen) and dubbed as Indy’s “mentor”.

Anyone?

JRJENNINGS86
04-25-2011, 10:41 AM
im not sure but i do not beleive Ox is Abner. in ROLA Marrion cleary tells Indy that Abner is dead. i always figured Indy got the Fedor from the treasure hunter in Last Crusade. i could be wrong though.

Darth Vile
04-25-2011, 12:26 PM
I think at some point in early pre-production it was supposed to be Abner Ravenwood. However, I don't think this idea was ever pursued. It certainly wasn't Abner in the original novelisation of the movie (although I stand to be corrected).

Montana Smith
04-25-2011, 02:17 PM
I thought Abner was a respectable archaeologist. Whereas Fedora's role was obviously that of a rogue.

Indy himself seems to have adapted both halves of his personality from these two role models.

Goodeknight
04-25-2011, 03:12 PM
I thought Abner was a respectable archaeologist. Whereas Fedora's role was obviously that of a rogue.

Indy himself seems to have adapted both halves of his personality from these two role models.

Interesting take, Montana. I agree. Indy melded the two into one, Fedora and Abner Ravenwood, perhaps with a bit of his dad thrown in.

Mickiana
04-25-2011, 08:48 PM
We have never met Abner and, as much as we might want to, we never will. Reintroducing Abner alive would be very difficult at this point, as it would have been for CS actually. He was a briefly mentioned character, though interesting, and was vital to the plot of Raiders, but I can't imagine how someone might think Fedora or Ox was Abner.

If Abner were to be introduced to us alive, I would like, as someone else previously suggested elsewhere, Wilford Brimley. He is pretty old but he's a great character, so he'd be suitable.

The Drifter
04-25-2011, 09:18 PM
I have a question. I have all of the Bantam Books in the Indiana Jones run. I have read every one up until Indiana Jones and the Unicorn's Legacy. I need to find the time to read the rest. But, my question is this - did Abner ever appear or even mentioned in the following books at any point?

Violet
04-26-2011, 04:07 AM
Came across and article that said the role of Fedora in LC was originally written as Abner Ravenwood.

http://pompousfilmsnob.com/2010/10/25/the-man-who-made-indiana-jones-fedora/

Is that true? I can't take the article at face value, because the writer goes on to say Ox is Abner in CS.

In the original script the character of Fedora was originally Abner Ravenwood who was later played by John Hurt in “The Kingdom of the Crystal Skulls” who was the father of Marion (Karen Allen) and dubbed as Indy’s “mentor”.

Anyone?

THREAD MERGED. I managed to find this fine thread about Abner = Fedora using the search words, "Abner, crusade." And about the Ox is Abner thing- a popular speculation that went on here before the film's release. So well-known that even the Official Indiana Jones website managed to tease a few people with a page on the site with a cast list- with John Hurt being credited as Abner.

@Drifter= No appearances of Abner in any of the Bantam's. However there is the possibility he appeared in issues #17 & 18 of Marvel's Further Adventures of Indiana Jones comics, the story arc titled, "The Search for Abner." Now if they do a radio drama of that, I'll be listening! Also as Stoo mentions earlier in this thread, there is an unpublished Dark Horse comic called 'The Lost Horizon" and the cover art with the only image we have o Abner being modelled after Wilford Brimley (a great actor!).

I have to admit it's always interesting what people think about Abner. Funnily enough I think he's a dark character- a academic fallen from grace, and I'm willing to bet more roguish as he got older.

Goodeknight
04-26-2011, 08:04 AM
THREAD MERGED. I managed to find this fine thread about Abner = Fedora using the search words, "Abner, crusade." And about the Ox is Abner thing- a popular speculation that went on here before the film's release. So well-known that even the Official Indiana Jones website managed to tease a few people with a page on the site with a cast list- with John Hurt being credited as Abner.

@Drifter= No appearances of Abner in any of the Bantam's. However there is the possibility he appeared in issues #17 & 18 of Marvel's Further Adventures of Indiana Jones comics, the story arc titled, "The Search for Abner." Now if they do a radio drama of that, I'll be listening! Also as Stoo mentions earlier in this thread, there is an unpublished Dark Horse comic called 'The Lost Horizon" and the cover art with the only image we have o Abner being modelled after Wilford Brimley (a great actor!).

I have to admit it's always interesting what people think about Abner. Funnily enough I think he's a dark character- a academic fallen from grace, and I'm willing to bet more roguish as he got older.

Wow! Thanks for the input, Violet, and for merging the threads. Nicely done.