Christmas [Archive]

westford

11-19-2005, 03:20 AM

Christmas has become totally commericialised. They've had an aisle in our local supermarket selling Christmas cards, crackers, chocolate, etc, since the end of September. But in these politically correct times, we're not supposed to say "Christmas" incase it offends non-Christians...

http://news.bbc.co.uk (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4398680.stm)
http://today.reuters.com (http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=oddlyEnoughNews&storyID=2005-11-18T152638Z_01_FLE855578_RTRUKOC_0_US-ODD-WORDS.xml)

:rolleyes:

Jay R. Zay

11-19-2005, 03:43 AM

Has Jesus' Bday become nothing but a marketing tool?:confused:

in fact, christmas is based on an old germanic midwinter celebration. the church placed jesus' birthday there to make the christian religion attractive for germans and celts. they could become christs and still celebrate their old festivities.

so actually, making christmas "Jesus' Bday" was the first time it was ever abused as a marketing tool.

after this, coca cola invented the look of the red and white santa most of us know today, so you could as well say christmas was "coca cola day". as a matter of fact, everybody uses christmas as they like to and i think you can't complain as somebody buing the oldest product sold at christmas - belief. thanks to you and many other people, companies today know that christmas and marketing is a successful mix. :)

Finn

11-19-2005, 05:50 AM

in fact, christmas is based on an old germanic midwinter celebration. the church placed jesus' birthday there to make the christian religion attractive for germans and celts. they could become christs and still celebrate their old festivities. Err... okay. *cough (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturnalia)*

Jay R. Zay

11-19-2005, 06:00 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule

and as you are so fond of wikipedia...

Historisch wurzelt das Weihnachtsfest in der keltischen und germanischen Feier der Wintersonnenwende. Die Umdeutung und Integration dieses Festes in den neuen Glauben (und damit Germanisierung des Christentums) war ein strategisches Element der ersten mitteleuropäischen Missionare zur Christianisierung von Germanen und Kelten.

i've tried the google translation and it's mostly readable so you don't have to claim i'd mess with the translation.

Stoo

11-19-2005, 06:17 AM

after this, coca cola invented the look of the red and white santa most of us know today, so you could as well say christmas was "coca cola day". The Santa look you refer to was created by N.C. Wyeth so,
by your logic, it should be called "Wyeth Day".

Finn

11-19-2005, 06:59 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule But still, somehow you failed to mention that there's been numeral winter celebration days Christmas was modeled after and just mentioned the German one... *cough, cough*

Jay R. Zay

11-19-2005, 07:38 AM

The Santa look you refer to was created by N.C. Wyeth so,
by your logic, it should be called "Wyeth Day".

source? wikpedia doesn't say anything, google couldn't find me any santa picture by him that looks like the red and white coke santa.

But still, somehow you failed to mention that there's been numeral winter celebration days Christmas was modeled after and just mentioned the German one... *cough, cough*

i decided to pick the oldest. and long before the romans had fixed gods they could dedicate celebrations to (they imported them around 600-500 b.c. from the greek), the germans and celts celebrated midwinter yule. as the romans adapted most of their own culture from others, it's very likely that they also decided to use the celtic and german celebration of winter solstice. okay?

Finn

11-19-2005, 08:00 AM

as the romans adapted most of their own culture from others, it's very likely that they also decided to use the celtic and german celebration of winter solstice. okay? K.

But still, you should have mentioned the above in your original post, to avoid annoying complications like me...

Jay R. Zay

11-19-2005, 08:20 AM

K.

But still, you should have mentioned the above in your original post, to avoid annoying complications like me...

i have to admit that i didn't care very much but on the other hand, i assume civilizations from all over the world who did some astronomy found the summer and winter solstices so there would have been pretty much to mention if you don't want to forget about any culture who celebrated this event between the celts/germans and the christian church.

unfortunately, i can't check right now for some reason my damn i-explorer doesn't display any new pages when i search at google.:dead:

KDuncan

11-19-2005, 11:55 AM

But in these politically correct times, we're not supposed to say "Christmas" incase it offends non-Christians...

That's pretty dumb, if you ask me... I am a Christian, but it's amazing how all these other religions can be mentioned and publicly displayed... Now instead of "Merry Christmas" you have to say "Happy Holidays" or "Seasons Greetings".

ClintonHammond

11-19-2005, 05:01 PM

"Has Jesus' Bday become nothing but a marketing tool?"

There's no evidence to show he was ever born in the first place, let alone on Dec 25th.....

X-mas is like any other celebration, you get out of it exactly and only what you put into it....

Jay R. Zay

11-19-2005, 05:52 PM

There's no evidence to show he was ever born in the first place, let alone on Dec 25th.....

ahm... does this mean you doubt the historic existence of jesus? jesus... i mean, you can think whatever you want but "there's no evidence" is a little ridiculous anyway. just because somebody died before you were born and there is no photo but an unprobable myth about him, does it mean he is a legend? i think, the existence of this guy is widely agreed on. not as the son of god but as a normal man. at least i've never heard any doubt about this.

Stoo

11-19-2005, 06:26 PM

source? wikpedia doesn't say anything, google couldn't find me any santa picture by him that looks like the red and white coke santa.
This is just one of many. Painted in 1925 for the cover of "Country Gentleman":
http://www.brandywinemuseumshop.org/catalog/index.cfm/ItemID/355D87CB-E96F-4374-806062420E29BF7F/display/detail

Anyway, who do you think Coke hired to paint pictures of Santa? Wyeth!
Coca-Cola assisted in popularizing the image but they didn't "invent" it.
If you want to get down to the nitty-gritty, another artist, Thomas Nast,
is attributed as being the first to render him that way.

Reality check: Just because you can't find certain information on the internet
doesn't mean something isn't true...

Jay R. Zay

11-19-2005, 06:37 PM

Reality check: Just because you can't find certain information on the internet
doesn't mean something isn't true...

what's that? lost your self confidence? i was asking you for a source, i didn't say you were wrong so take it easy, man... does asking you for a source piss you off so much? jesus. if you knew you were going to get a heart attack because of this, you could have provided a source in the first place. if i wanted to say you were wrong, my reply would have had a different taste. :rolleyes:

ClintonHammond

11-19-2005, 09:47 PM

"the existence of this guy is widely agreed on"

Not by any historian worth his salt....

KDuncan

11-19-2005, 11:31 PM

"the existence of this guy is widely agreed on"

Not by any historian worth his salt....

You got that mixed up -- any historian worth their salt WILL agree on his existence.

ClintonHammond

11-20-2005, 12:02 AM

KDuncan

11-20-2005, 12:18 AM

Show me ANY evidence that PROVES there was ever a such a man Jesus, as portrayed in the Bible... But do it elsewhere, cause this thread isn't about that... I will however leave you with this one tid-bit to chew on http://www.atheists.org/christianity/didjesusexist.html :-)

(More to the point) Even if he did exist, the odds are VERY good that his birthday wasn't anywhere near December 25th

Okay, I'll chew on the link soon. :D

Actually, I think Dec 25th was just some sort of guess, I was under the impression they aren't really sure when he was born.

San Holo

11-20-2005, 03:05 AM

Show me ANY evidence that PROVES there was ever a such a man Jesus, as portrayed in the Bible... But do it elsewhere, cause this thread isn't about that... I will however leave you with this one tid-bit to chew on http://www.atheists.org/christianity/didjesusexist.html :-)

(More to the point) Even if he did exist, the odds are VERY good that his birthday wasn't anywhere near December 25th
Such bitterness, Hammy;) .The Gospels never mention Jesus' exact date or year of birth, so early chuch founders chose the 25th of December because it was already a pagan tradition to celebrate on this day.

Jay R. Zay

11-20-2005, 03:11 AM

Show me ANY evidence that PROVES there was ever a such a man Jesus, as portrayed in the Bible...

a single piece of evidence that *proves* anything? did tut ankh amun exist? show me. and what do you mean by "as portrayed in the bible"? do you want us to show that a guy existed who walked on water, was ressurrected, etc..?

as well as kduncan, i don't have the time right now to read the article but i'll give it a look later. so far...

(More to the point) Even if he did exist, the odds are VERY good that his birthday wasn't anywhere near December 25th

did you read the thread? the bible doesn't even say exactly when he was born and we all know that it wasn't december 25. so taking it that december 25 wasn't his birthday doesn't really say a thing about him being a legend or not.

ElodieJones

11-20-2005, 10:39 AM

Christmas is a BIG MISUNDERSTANDING !!!

Santa Claus, in French is called "Father Christmas".
We make a difference between "Santa Claus" and "Father Christmas"

In my village, we celebrate the real Santa Claus.
Because he is the protector of our village.
The real day is the 6. december.
The real Santa Claus is the patron saint of children and seafarers.
He was a good man who saved children and made gift for poor children.

http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintn01.htm
http://www.wowcom.net/christmas97/day16/

Christmas mean the birthday of Jesus, because, the 25. december is the first day, where the sun begin to come back

Finn

11-20-2005, 11:08 AM

You know, Xmas should just be officially announced as nothing else but another healthy excuse to drink yourself under the table...

Magda

11-20-2005, 11:14 AM

I hate Christmas. I don't know why, I just do.

Jesus Christ, you atheists crack me up. What do you sorry bastards believe in? Anything at all? Whats makes you the angry young lad that you are? You dumb ****s just look up at the sky and the stars and don't have the level of intelligence to figure out that "hey, something must have created all of this" but, that type of deep thinking would actually take energy.

ToJ,. just because somebody has a different point of view (from yours) does not mean that their point is invalid or stupid, nor is it cause to call them a dumbsh*t.

And that energy you talked about does not necessarily mean the energy of a deity. I suggest you take a visit to the science section of a Barnes & Noble.

IAdventurer01

11-20-2005, 11:18 AM

I figure since the date of birth of Jesus is unknown, it only really matters what day people actually celebrate it. Since there was a time where Catholicism was rediculously spread during the Catholic Empire (especially in Germanic regions, I may add) the meaning of previous celebrations was primarily replaced with that of Jesus' birth. Therefore, the meaning of the season is Jesus B-Day. (Well, and nearby Hanukkah, but that's beside the point. :rolleyes: )

... and yes, Christmas is being used as the largest marketing tool the world has ever known. Just to get us back on topic. :p

11-20-2005, 11:22 AM

The real day is the 6. december.

That's the Independence Day of Finland.

http://www.lilja.partio.fi/pahe/suomen-lippu-366px.jpg

ElodieJones

11-20-2005, 11:37 AM

You are right. Christmas is not a good day. Too much commercial.
Too much gifts.
The good Christmas for me, is to spend the day with my family !
Just together.

TombReader

11-20-2005, 12:00 PM

There's no such thing as atheism.A belief in nothing is still a belief in something.Atheism still acknowledges the existence of God,even if they're trying to disprove it.

Jay R. Zay

11-20-2005, 03:10 PM

There's no such thing as atheism. A belief in nothing is still a belief in something.

actually, atheism doesn't mean believing in "nothing", it means not believing. and there, unfortunately, your little word play doesn't work.

Atheism still acknowledges the existence of God,even if they're trying to disprove it.

this frankly is ridiculous. you can believe whatever you want but don't tell others what *they* believe.

i would agree that nobody knows anything and therefore even has to "believe" in science - but *your* line of thought is something entirely different.

TombReader

11-20-2005, 05:17 PM

actually, atheism doesn't mean believing in "nothing", it means not believing. and there, unfortunately, your little word play doesn't work.

Gee Jay,someone just gave me some excellent advice on splitting hairs.Maybe I should pass it along to you?Kidding,but anyway.Atheism is a belief that there is no God,but it is still a belief nonetheless.

this frankly is ridiculous. you can believe whatever you want but don't tell others what *they* believe.

Interpreting what someone has said and dictating their beliefs are two different things.When you're finished with that hair-splitter,pass it back over here,will you?

Finn

11-20-2005, 05:28 PM

One word: Abloy.

There's no need to get to that. Please behave.

San Holo

11-21-2005, 02:57 AM

So, are you non-Christians offended when someone greets you with a "Merry Christmas"? Besides being taken over as a commercial payday,you can't even use the phrase anymore.There is alot of controversey in the U.S. about using Christ's name in public. Happy Hollidays is the politically correct term that is guaranteed not to hurt anybody's feelings. So they are taking away the age old traditions of Christmas carrols, Christmas parties and parades. Even my boy Santa has been deemed offensive. If some grocery store worker says "MerryChristmas" on the 25th of December to the wrong person, the store could be sued. It is getting ridiculous. What kills me is how new hollidays like Kwanzaa are being accepted and celebrated where Christmas cannot.Jesus taught peace and good will to all men, while Kwanzaa was invented in 1966 by Dr. Maulana Karenga,a black militant, Marxist and convicted felon to unite only black people. Just five years after his invention, the good Dr. was convicted of torturing two black women by stripping them naked, beating them with electrical cords, placing a hot iron into the mouth of one and mangling the toe of the other in a vice. During the ordeal, he forced them to drink detergent. A very Happy Kwanzaa indeed. To lump Christmas together with Kwanzaa under the "Happy Hollidays" banner is an insult.

Pale Horse

11-21-2005, 07:42 AM

You know, Xmas should just be officially announced as nothing else but another healthy excuse to drink yourself under the table...

Heh, or to debate the same topic with new people, year after year, after year. It's the gift that keeps on giving.

:p

ClintonHammond

11-21-2005, 10:05 AM

"Christmas is not a good day"

X-mas is like any other celebration, you get out of it exactly what you put into it... if you want it to be a fun time, it will be... if you want to be cranky about it, you will be...

It's your decision

Joe Brody

11-21-2005, 10:35 AM

There's no such thing as atheism.A belief in nothing is still a belief in something.Atheism still acknowledges the existence of God,even if they're trying to disprove it.

Nihilist: We believe in nothing, Lebowski. Nothing. And tomorrow we come back and we cut off your . . . . .

My bad. Wrong thread.

KDuncan

11-21-2005, 11:29 AM

Heh, or to debate the same topic with new people, year after year, after year. It's the gift that keeps on giving.

:p

Yup, perhaps people should start bumping last year's thread and continue off that? :p

IAdventurer01

11-21-2005, 04:43 PM

Yup, perhaps people should start bumping last year's thread and continue off that? :p

Nah, I like posting the same thing yearly. It bolsters my post count. :rolleyes:

tonydelvecchio

11-21-2005, 09:58 PM

Everything is going to offend somebody nowadays. Personally, I think the spirit of Christmas or X-mas is to show goodwill to the other human beings (and dogs but not cats) that share space on this big old rotating ball. Who really gives a $#!^ what we call it? Or what your spiritual beliefs are? Try a little of that kind of "Christmas" every day, and you'll be amazed at how good it can make you feel. :D

intergamer

11-22-2005, 05:32 AM

I don't believe that a man named Jesus Christ existed, although it's possible. I do believe in something called the Burden of Proof. I believe that the universe is a collection of information, and even the means by which we express and interpret information should be subject to scrutiny. I believe that there is a grand unified theory of physics, which would be worth killing for, worth dying for, worth going to hell for.

As for the naming thing, I only hope that somebody gets offended because I use the term Christmas, so that I can tell them a thing or two - maybe make the world a better place by doing so. By who could actually be 'offended' by it, that's just patently absurd.