Iran

[San Holo]

Well, Iran has kicked out weapons inspectors to put the finishing touches on their nukes. They have a radical leader,who was a terrorist in the Iranian Hostage crisis. He has vowed to blow Israel off the map, while his countrymen chant "Death to America". How long will it be before we invade? Should we?

[qwerty]

What is the matter San Holo? Do you wanna die?
Do not ask for war if you do not know what that means.

[Jay R. Zay]

What is the matter San Holo? Do you wanna die?
Do not ask for war if you do not know what that means.

well, war is something different for the USA than for serbia. apart from this he didn't literally ask for war and most of all he didn't ask for iran to invade the USA but - if at all - vice versa.

[San Holo]

What is the matter San Holo? Do you wanna die?
Do not ask for war if you do not know what that means.
I was referring to how the Bush camp is going to react about Iran not allowing U.N. weapons inspectors to moniter their nuclear facilities (when that happened in Iraq, we invaded). I don't recall asking to die anywhere in my post...How 'bout this -Shut 'yer dirty mouth before I smack you in it.;)

[Finn]

(when that happened in Iraq, we invaded) Now this one's going to get some opinions that may differ slightly from this statement. But I'm not getting into it.

<small>Actually, this seems like one of the threads to which the upkeep will be craving for a reason good enough to cut it short... so please, give us one.</small>

[San Holo]

Now this one's going to get some opinions that may differ slightly from this statement. But I'm not getting into it.

<small>Actually, this seems like one of the threads to which the upkeep will be craving for a reason good enough to cut it short... so please, give us one.</small>
By all means, "get into it". I'm really curious to see how folks at the Raven would deal with the situation.

[qwerty]

Ok I will explain what I wanted to say.
In my country in the 1990's there was bunch of bloody wars. They all had something in common. They were all started by people's stupidity. People had for the first time in long period a choise over their destiny so they started thinking like this. "We have bunch of piled up problems. Let's resolve them using brief military actions". That's all it took to start one of the most horofing periods on the Balkan soil. (look it up, that was hard to beat but we menaged to do it)
Now every time anyone starts talking about military actions I tell him: Imagine yourself as the other side. Maybe it is hard to believe but this time YOU are the bad guy.

[Jay R. Zay]

Maybe it is hard to believe but this time YOU are the bad guy.

the world isn't so easy to be divided into good and bad. iran knows what they are doing. they don't need a nuclear program just for energy reasons and if they would, they could allow for weapon inspectors to have a look. the way iran behaves, we all have good reasons to assume that they are working on nuclear weapons. and i don't know how YOU feel about it, but i do NOT feel so well about an instable, anti-western, undemocratic and rather "small" country having nuclear weapons. that's something different with france, the USA and even russia. these countries are basically aware of the responsibility they have by owning these weapons. if iran has them, it's not so funny. it's a risk and iran provokes this war - unlike iraq, where evidence rather clearly said that they probably do NOT have WOMD.

i don't think you are fully aware of what you are talking about, judging from the way how you talk about it.

[westford]

Well, Iran has kicked out weapons inspectors to put the finishing touches on their nukes.
Finishing touches? Iran are around 10 years from having the nuclear bomb. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4606356.stm

Besides, aren't the US too busy bombing Pakistan at the moment? http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060115/ZNYT03/601150415

[qwerty]

i don't think you are fully aware of what you are talking about, judging from the way how you talk about it.

That is probably true.

But think about this. Where I come from we have a saying that goes like this: Money is spining, where drill bit wann't.
(this might be a not so good translation but it does show the escence of the problem)

[San Holo]

Finishing touches? Iran are around 10 years from having the nuclear bomb.
Try 3, bud.

[Indy Parise]

That is probably true.

But think about this. Where I come from we have a saying that goes like this: Money is spining, where drill bit wann't.
(this might be a not so good translation but it does show the escence of the problem)


We have a saying in Sicily too. I saw nothing I heard nothing I wasn't there and if I was there I was asleep.

We also have a saying in Ireland. Don't cross a man, or he will take it on your life. Put these two together and.....;)

[qwerty]

I saw nothing I heard nothing I wasn't there and if I was there I was asleep.

I like that one. It comes handy when you have to deal with the police.

[San Holo]

Iran knows the US is tied up in Iraq, so they are talking big and making all of these threats. The UN is gonna have to try and resolve the situation, but I don't have too much faith in them after the Oil for Food scandal. China and Russia have multi billion dollar oil contracts with Iran, so I doubt they will vote to take any action for fears of a raise in oil prices.

[Henry Jones, Sr]

The U.N. is a bunch of pansies.

[monkey]

If Iran develops nuclear weapon capability, it is a no brainer that they will give it to terrorists. This should not be allowed to happen. It could be catastrophic for both Europe, and America.

80% of Iran's economy is dependent on exportation of oil.

Iran must be convinced to stop the development of nuclear weapons capability.

two words..........NAVAL BLOCKADE.

No bombing, no killing, no bloodshed.........but they will be quickly convinced to comply with the wishes of the world.

[San Holo]

If Iran develops nuclear weapon capability, it is a no brainer that they will give it to terrorists. This should not be allowed to happen. It could be catastrophic for both Europe, and America.

80% of Iran's economy is dependent on exportation of oil.

Iran must be convinced to stop the development of nuclear weapons capability.

two words..........NAVAL BLOCKADE.

No bombing, no killing, no bloodshed.........but they will be quickly convinced to comply with the wishes of the world.
80% of their economy is dependant on oil exports and they produce a huge amount of the world's oil supply.If a blocade or sanctions of any kind were imposed,Iran would retaliate by cutting that supply. That would drive crude oil prices to record highs(as if they aren't high enough now). Countries like China and Russia, are not going to let politics get in the way of cheap oil and already have contracts with Iran. Iran's oil will always have a buyer- so I'm not sure that they will respond to a blocade.

[monkey]

80% of their economy is dependant on oil exports and they produce a huge amount of the world's oil supply.If a blocade or sanctions of any kind were imposed,Iran would retaliate by cutting that supply. That would drive crude oil prices to record highs(as if they aren't high enough now). Countries like China and Russia, are not going to let politics get in the way of cheap oil and already have contracts with Iran. Iran's oil will always have a buyer- so I'm not sure that they will respond to a blocade.

It wouldn't be a matter of Iran cutting their supply to the world, indeed the whole point of the naval blockade would be to prevent Iran from exporting their oil. If they can't sell their oil, their economy would collapse. Hopefully this would initiate a revolution in the country that is waiting to happen anyway.

Iran is a nation populated by a very well educated and progressive minded people..........who unfortunately are enslaved by an Islamic extremist fascist government. I think a naval blockade would help to topple that government from within. Hopefully bloodlessly.

You do make a good point Han. Iran's oil being cut off from most of the world would indeed cause a rather large ripple effect in the world's economy. But it would be the price we would have to pay.

I think that there's been enough negotiating, talking, etc. etc. It's time for bold action. If those fanatics develop a bomb, I believe strongly that they WILL give it to terrorists. And I KNOW that the terrorists WILL try to use it.

Bold action is required. But let's try to have no bloodshed.

[San Holo]

Monkey, your not such a bad guy after all;)

[Finn]

Heh, the funny thing is that Iran's practically now posing a greater threat than Saddam ever was. And with the catastrophical ongoings in Iraq (okay, I'm not saying if it was necessary or not, but the execution sure as hell was lousy) and not to mention that with the opposition for any kind of action by two other great nations, Russia and China (they get cheap oil, and well, THEY don't have to be afraid of the bomb, at least that much), the hands of the US Adminstration are pretty much tied.

Should they choose to break free from those bonds, this time they must know that they may be facing a bigger FUBAR than Iraq ever was. Should a naval blockade take place, it is possible that it'd uprise a Coup de Grace as monkey suggested, but more cynical person would probably think that in the best (worst) case it'd just raise even more anger towards the "Great Satan".

I'm not saying any kind of action (and preferably bloodless, please) wouldn't be possible, but it's certainly more difficult mostly thanks to their own past mistakes. I'd laugh at the irony of this situation if it wasn't so damn scary.

[San Holo]

Heh, the funny thing is that Iran's practically now posing a greater threat than Saddam ever was. And with the catastrophical ongoings in Iraq (okay, I'm not saying if it was necessary or not, but the execution sure as hell was lousy) and not to mention that with the opposition for any kind of action by two other great nations, Russia and China (they get cheap oil, and well, THEY don't have to be afraid of the bomb, at least that much), the hands of the US Adminstration are pretty much tied.

Should they choose to break free from those bonds, this time they must know that they may be facing a bigger FUBAR than Iraq ever was. Should a naval blockade take place, it is possible that it'd uprise a Coup de Grace as monkey suggested, but more cynical person would probably think that in the best (worst) case it'd just raise even more anger towards the "Great Satan".

I'm not saying any kind of action (and preferably bloodless, please) wouldn't be possible, but it's certainly more difficult mostly thanks to their own past mistakes. I'd laugh at the irony of this situation if it wasn't so damn scary.
You want some scary irony? North Korea is just sitting back watching this all unfold while they are creating their own nukes. We will eventually have to take action against them too. This really is the setting for WW3.

[Jay R. Zay]

You want some scary irony? North Korea is just sitting back watching this all unfold while they are creating their own nukes. We will eventually have to take action against them too. This really is the setting for WW3.

probably not. WWIII implies that someone fires back. and that he fires back seriously. one or two nuclear launches by small wannabe-bad-guys isn't really a world war. after the impact of a couple of US, russian and french bombs, i don't really think there will still be much to fight a war with.

[Finn]

You want some scary irony? North Korea is just sitting back watching this all unfold while they are creating their own nukes. We will eventually have to take action against them too. This really is the setting for WW3. Pfft. PRK isn't even a threat, to be honest. That is because they sit on the Chinese back yard. If they ever start playing a too big boy with any weapons they may have, the Chinese will beat the US from invading them, simply to keep the Americans out of there.

[San Holo]

probably not. WWIII implies that someone fires back. and that he fires back seriously. one or two nuclear launches by small wannabe-bad-guys isn't really a world war. after the impact of a couple of US, russian and french bombs, i don't really think there will still be much to fight a war with. Well, if Iran launches a nuke at Israel- Israel will retaliate with nuclear war. North Korea launches one at S.Korea or other U.S. interests,the States will be at war there too(China is waiting for that one). This could easily spiral out of control, with many countries "firing back".

[Finn]

Again, PRK won't nuke South Korea. Why? Firstly, it's too close. And secondly, idealistically both Koreas think that they should be one nation, only difference is that both think it should be led by using their own political system. If north gets a nuke, an <i>invasion</i> to south is highly possible instead, but they will most likely use that nuke to tell anyone wanting to intervene to back off.

Of course, this won't happen, as China will do something before it gets to this. Yeah, they may have a lot to pick up when it comes to democracy and other fine ideals, but the Cold War's over, and if they can be members of the global family the way they are, and thus they won't go to PRK's side on any crisis that may occur. That would just be asking for trouble. And besides, Beijing knows that if they won't do something, the Americans do, and they think there's enough US troops on the Korean peninsula as it is.

And that's why we all just idle North Korea. The Dragon's got it in leash.

[Jay R. Zay]

Well, if Iran launches a nuke at Israel- Israel will retaliate with nuclear war. North Korea launches one at S.Korea or other U.S. interests,the States will be at war there too(China is waiting for that one). This could easily spiral out of control, with many countries "firing back".

not at all. all these wars are today "rich, civilized world" vs. "small, poor countries". and no matter how different the USA, russia, china, germany, france, israel, etc., might be - we are all rich and powerful. and none of us wants to risk these privileges. if small countries attack big ones, we all will stand together. if north korea attacks the USA and europe, russia and china won't sit back and watch. such a development would be too risky to be tolerated by them.

plus, the united power of, say, iran, north korea and pakistan won't even be able to eradicate just the USA (let alone "the western world"). as soon as they get sassy, we will knock them out. and they know. the USA, on the other hand, would be able to waste iran, north korea and pakistan at once. and they know as well.

this isn't a world war. a world war means that a lot of powerful countries fight against each other. but in this case, it rather is like a lot of powerful countries doing a clean sweep after some small countries got sassy. once we all start using nuclear missiles, this "war" will be over in a matter of days.

[San Holo]

not at all. all these wars are today "rich, civilized world" vs. "small, poor countries". and no matter how different the USA, russia, china, germany, france, israel, etc., might be - we are all rich and powerful. and none of us wants to risk these privileges. if small countries attack big ones, we all will stand together. if north korea attacks the USA and europe, russia and china won't sit back and watch. such a development would be too risky to be tolerated by them.

plus, the united power of, say, iran, north korea and pakistan won't even be able to eradicate just the USA (let alone "the western world"). as soon as they get sassy, we will knock them out. and they know. the USA, on the other hand, would be able to waste iran, north korea and pakistan at once. and they know as well.

this isn't a world war. a world war means that a lot of powerful countries fight against each other. but in this case, it rather is like a lot of powerful countries doing a clean sweep after some small countries got sassy. once we all start using nuclear missiles, this "war" will be over in a matter of days.
I would like to think like that also, but the current world sitiation seems a little more serious than just a few small,sassy countries that need to be spanked. Iran has powerful allies. China, Russia and Iran have more of an alliance than people think, and I beleive that they would stand together if anyone were to threaten the pact. China and Russia have been practicing joint military exercises for years. The two countries deal arms and energy with each other exclusivley. And most important,both countries sell sophisticated weapons technology to Iran in exchange for lucrative oil contracts that all 3 countries profit from. China(who in 2001, shot down a U.S. spy plane on the edge of the Chinese border) and Russia are not what you would call friendly to the U.S. and have openly opposed sanctions against Iran. Russia and China have more to gain from an alliance with Iran and it's oil money,than they do with the U.S. and it's allies.

[Finn]

That's true, but as I said, the Cold War is over. In the modern world, even countries like China or Russia won't take sides against the common opinion should a major conflict arise, because that means losing support from the western countries concerning their own agendas.

Sometimes it seems as some Americans wished that the world was still black & white, so they could act more easily without thinking about consequences. Silent support is whole another shebang, but no modern country risks joining an open conflict to the "wrong side" these days... and that's all that matters. And we'll have to keep in mind that silent support works all ways. From an objective point of view, the silent support US gives to Israel is no difference from the one between Russia & Iran.

[Jay R. Zay]

China, Russia and Iran have more of an alliance than people think, and I beleive that they would stand together if anyone were to threaten the pact.

i would agree that it is hard to tell. but: china and russia are rich. iran is poor. china and russia have large trade agreements with the west. iran hasn't. china and russia won't be able to feed iran and iran doesn't fight against "the west", iran fights against nations that are richer and more powerful. if iran beats the west, russia and china won't be safe for long. and russia and china wouldn't even be interested in iran beating the west - because of the trade agreements. the rich countries form a strong web of connections between them. iran isn't involved in these connections so iran can act autonomous. but neither russia nor china can without risking their status. and ideology isn't worth as much as the status of a world power. unstable and incalculable countries like iran don't have serious allies. and what use would an alliance with iran be for russia and china? none at all. iran has nothing to give. nuclear weapons? neither china nor russia need them. soldiers? just as well. money? nope. influence? nope. iran is dangerous for everyone and as soon as iran starts to become megalomanical, both china and russia will see that it's about time to put a stop to this. they aren't stupid.

And most important,both countries sell sophisticated weapons technology to Iran in exchange for lucrative oil contracts that all 3 countries profit from.

but oil sources are depleting and iran isn't the only county to sell oil. plus, if iran is invaded, there will be enough oil for all of us - without all the risk. and most of all, iran's oil can't make up for international trade. it's okay to have a little deal with iran here and there, like a little love affair. but you won't risk your marriage for it.

China(who in 2001, shot down a U.S. spy plane on the edge of the Chinese border) and Russia are not what you would call friendly to the U.S. and have openly opposed sanctions against Iran.

this is their right. apart from that, we are no longer in the cold war: russia is more interested in good relations with the US than most americans prefer to believe. china may not be so fond of the US but china is also closely connected to the western world. being in china, you will notice that over there people are really ambitious to open their country to the western world. the chinese people don't have hard feelings about the west and nobody there is interested in messing around with the US. . they will still be an opposition for quite a long time, but this isn't like real hostility.

Russia and China have more to gain from an alliance with Iran and it's oil money,than they do with the U.S. and it's allies.

i absolutely agree with this. i believe you are overestimating oil and underestimating trade. plus you forget that agreements aren't the only way to get a country's oil. bush knew how to get iraq's oil without establishing an alliance with saddam, as well. iran's oil without iran's waywardness would be some kind of a better deal, wouldn't it?

edit. feels strange to agree with finn. ;)

[San Holo]

That's true, but as I said, the Cold War is over. In the modern world, even countries like China or Russia won't take sides against the common opinion should a major conflict arise, because that means losing support from the western countries concerning their own agendas.

Sometimes it seems as some Americans wished that the world was still black & white, so they could act more easily without thinking about consequences. Silent support is whole another shebang, but no modern country risks joining an open conflict to the "wrong side" these days... and that's all that matters. And we'll have to keep in mind that silent support works all ways. From an objective point of view, the silent support US gives to Israel is no difference from the one between Russia & Iran.
The United States silently supported Britain in WW2 and eventually got pulled into it. I think we will be drawn into any war that Israel fights. You are right, I wish things were more "Black and White", and the lines of right and wrong were accepted worldwide. I'm not sure that being on the "right" side is on China's agenda. Look at their human rights violations and government oppression. Russia's economy has nearly collapsed since losing the Cold War and they have allegedly sold suitcase nukes and other arms to the highest bidder. Neither of the two countries like the U.S. being the world's only super power.China is fast becoming a world power while Russia scrambles to regain it's pre Cold War status. Hopefully you are right, and China and Russia would not risk being on the "wrong side", but I'm not ruling out the possibility that things could get ugly.

[Finn]

Well, I have nothing to add to that, just look at Jay's post above and it does it for me (now did I wince to say that). It's true that China may not be the wonderland of democracy and human rights and yes, there is an itty bitty chance that they'd support the "wrong side" if arms start talking, but I still reckon they'd have whole lot of more to lose going head-on-head against the west.

[San Holo]

What do you think of Hamas(the terror faction founded in Iran) winning in the Palestinian elections.The organization lists the destruction of Israel at the top of it's list.

[Finn]

Terror faction? Well, not exactly. I think that more appropiate term would be "radical movement"... get your terms right first.

[San Holo]

Terror faction? Well, not exactly. I think that more appropiate term would be "radical movement"... get your terms right first.
Get my terms right?Just what do they call terrorists in Finland? Hamas is on our list of terror organizations here.. They are involved in the training and recruitment of suicide bombers throughout the Middle East and are funded directly by Iran. They have proclaimed jihad against Israel and the Crusader nations(us) Here is a list of some of this "radical movement's" activities-
The 1 June 2001 suicide bombing of a Tel Aviv discotheque, in which 21 people were murdered and 120 were wounded;
The 9 August 2001 suicide bombing of a Jerusalem restaurant, in which 15 people were murdered and 130 were wounded;
The 1 December 2001 double suicide bombing on the Ben Yehuda Street pedestrian mall in Jerusalem, in which 11 people were murdered and 188 were wounded;
The 2 December 2001 suicide bombing of a #16 bus in Haifa, in which 15 people were murdered and 40 were wounded;
The 9 March 2002 suicide bombing of a Jerusalem cafe, in which 11 people were murdered and 54 were wounded;
The 27 March 2002 suicide bombing of a Netanya hotel on the first night of Passover, in which 30 people were murdered and 140 were wounded;
The 18 June 2002 suicide bombing of a #32A bus in Jerusalem, in which 19 people were murdered and 74 were wounded;
The 4 August 2002 suicide bombing of #361 bus at Meron junction, in which nine people were murdered and 50 were wounded;
The 21 November 2002 suicide bombing of a #20 bus in Jerusalem, in which 11 people were murdered and 50 were wounded;
The 5 March 2003 suicide bombing of a #37 bus in Haifa, in which 17 people were murdered and 53 were wounded;
The 17 May 2003 suicide bombing in Hebron, in which two people were murdered;
The 18 May 2003 suicide bombing of a #6 bus in Jerusalem, in which seven people were murdered and 20 wounded;
The 11 June 2003 suicide bombing of #14A bus in Jerusalem, in which 11 people were murdered and over 100 were wounded;
The 19 August 2003 suicide bombing of a #2 bus in Jerusalem, in which 23 people were murdered and over 130 were wounded;
The 9 September 2003 suicide bombing of a hitchhiking post near the IDF base at Tzrifin, in which nine soldiers were murdered and 10 were wounded;
The 9 September 2003 suicide bombing of a Jerusalem cafe, in which seven people were murdered and 70 were wounded;
The 29 January 2004 suicide bombing of a #19 bus in Jerusalem, in which 11 people were murdered and 44 were wounded;
The 14 March 2004 double suicide bombing at Ashdod port, in which 10 people were murdered and 16 were wounded.
On Aug 31, 2004 16 people were killed and 100 wounded in two suicide bombings within minutes of each other on two Beersheba city buses.

[Finn]

Yep, that's a radical movement alright. Haven't you heard? Around there, the strikes against Israel is called politics. But if they started to strike against the western world... well, that might cross the line of terrorism.

Cowboy.

[San Holo]

Yippi Ki Yay ;)

[Jay R. Zay]

What do you think of Hamas(the terror faction founded in Iran) winning in the Palestinian elections.The organization lists the destruction of Israel at the top of it's list.

well this shows that the palestinians aren't interested in getting this whole thing through peacefully, either. now that arafat is dead and sharon is virtually dead, they would have had a chance to start at the scratch, so to speak. they could have tried and see, what israel comes up with, they could have showed the western world that they are willing to cooperate and within 10-20 years, this annoying gaza strip sh*t could have been settled without much bloodshed on both sides. that's the way i'd have assessed the situation.

now they didn't want it - okay. the support and the sympathy of the western world now is quickly running out. the hamas alone can't win this "war", so unless the palestinians don't find the emergency break and show us a u-turn, it seems likely that isreal might be doing a clean sweep soon and there won't be much people complaining over here.

electing the hamas is emotionally understandable, of course the palestinians are fed up with israel. but even more, it is unbelievably stupid. if you are the mouse, that only lives because people feel pity for you, don't you ever bite the cat. a little terror here and there - okay. but if the majority of the population supports a terror faction (and there is no denying the hamas is one), there aren't many good excuses.

so i guess the palestinians just screwed themselves but hey, it's their problem. as long as they keep their stupid war at home (munich comes to my mind, although this was rather the PLO than the hamas) they can try to do it this way. israel isn't really innocent in this conflict and if the situation gets too explosive, the USA will support them. so they've scored an own goal with this election but in a way, it makes things much easier for all of us.

[San Holo]

I just heard that United States' B2 bombers are gearing up for a run on Iran's nuclear facilities as soon as next week.

[Webley]

Does the UAS allow U.N. weapons inspectors to moniter their nuclear facilities?

[Mad_Max]

San Holo,
Where did you hear about the B-2's going to be sent to bomb Iran's nuclear facilities? Personally I think the US would'nt tell everyone that they're going to send B-2 Bombers to bomb the nuclear facilities, that's like Geraldo Rivera drawing the US Army battle plans in the sand(If you guys saw that) then the Iranians would be already aiming Nukes at Major US Cities and ready to launch the second they hear a jet overhead.
I mean no offense to you San just want to find out truth from rumors.

[San Holo]

San Holo,
Where did you hear about the B-2's going to be sent to bomb Iran's nuclear facilities? Personally I think the US would'nt tell everyone that they're going to send B-2 Bombers to bomb the nuclear facilities, that's like Geraldo Rivera drawing the US Army battle plans in the sand(If you guys saw that) then the Iranians would be already aiming Nukes at Major US Cities and ready to launch the second they hear a jet overhead.
I mean no offense to you San just want to find out truth from rumors.
The local news aired those comments a few weeks ago, but obviously that hasn't happened yet. If we got the greenlight from our allies, the US would go medieval on these suckas, but it is kinda hard when Russia is selling them plutonium for warheads.Rest easy though 'lil buddy, Iran does not have nukes aimed at us just yet.

[monkey]

Hey Y'all,
Just returned once again from the 2/3 empty area of our planet, where I spend most of my time, and want to join in to this very interesting discussion, with you very nice people.

I want to apologize however for being impatient and not reading the whole thread from start to finish before joining in. So if I err in that regard, please forgive.

First of all: Back in the day...........in like...the 80's and 90's....I was often a champion for the Palestinian people/cause in discussions. These were often discussions in hostile environments, where there was little or no sympathy for the Palestinians. But I spoke up anyway, convinced of the righteousness of my arguments. Monkey has never been one to shy away from confrontation.....and has NEVER followed any crowd. I am either a leader.........or more often an outcast.

But yes, I did speak quite forcefully for the rights of this oppressed and persecuted people. ..........but then something happened.......something that opened my eyes to the evil that is *****...........(starts with "I" ends with "M")

I remember a date.......yes, it was September 11th 2001. 3000 plus Americans were murdered. What was the reaction of the Palestinians? ....They danced in the streets!! They danced for joy!! This forever changed my opinion of this people, and of their "cause" (which now I realize is no "cause", but merely another expression of that evil that is *****.)

I distinctly remember when a reported queried one of the dancing Palestinians in the street about how he could celebrate the death of so many innocent people..........the man smiled, laughed, and responded: "It should be more!!"
At that point something fundamental changed. I realized what I.....We...are up against.

Anyway, before I make this post too long.......... Recently the Palestinian people were given the chance to vote in free and fair elections. ..........

They chose Hamas.........they chose Terrorism.

OK, let me repeat slowly...........they were given a choice.......progress and peace.........or terrorism and murder. They chose the latter.

As they sow..........so shall they reap.

And now let's turn to that nation that funds, supports.....IS .....Hamas. The nation of Iran.

OK, first of all understand one thing clearly........the fanatics in Iran want to KILL everyone in Europe and America. Second.....they ARE right now developing nuclear weapons. ...........do you want me to do the math.......or can you do it?

OK.......Alrighty then..........

Have a nice day.

Thanks,

Monkey

[indifan101]

I know Iv'e said a lot of hatred towards muslims and Iranians and I greatly apologize if it offeneded anyone in the past. We need to keep a close eye on the Iranians and their nuclear program. If they have what they say they have and the UN Officials claims are correct we need to start thinking about some decisions about their insame president's ideas.

[Paden]

I guess what it boils down to is that we really need to bite the bullet and proceed with blowing Iran off the map. As a public service, of course. ;)

Kidding aside, an unstable country that is hostile to western countries and has access to nuclear arms is a genuinely frightening situation that requires vigilance and some potentially difficult decisions on the part of the U.S. and Europe. Given what I know of the regime, I'm pretty skeptical about diplomatic methods providing any real solution.

[roundshort]

Why can't we all just get along?

[monkey]

Because fanatics are developing nuclear weapons......and they want to kill you, and your whole family. In the minds of millions of people, you (and your grandmother) have been declared to be Satan, and therefore must be destroyed.

Kumbaya

[Paden]

Because fanatics are developing nuclear weapons......and they want to kill you, and your whole family. In the minds of millions of people, you (and your grandmother) have been declared to be Satan, and therefore must be destroyed.

Kumbaya
This deserves a nomination for "Reply of the Year". :D

[roundshort]

Because fanatics are developing nuclear weapons......and they want to kill you, and your whole family. In the minds of millions of people, you (and your grandmother) have been declared to be Satan, and therefore must be destroyed.

Kumbaya

Nah, its not that bad. Besides both my grandmothers are dead, so they can do what they want. I am a big believer that if we (the US) can have nukes, then hell why cant everyone. What makes the US so great that we can tell who can and who cant have what. Hell If Iran starts making world class wine, then, damn I will be pissed. Bombs of Baghdad, how about Cab over Cairo! Besides to millions of people here they are all Satan, and we have nukes, so why don't we use 'em?

Hakuna Matata

[Jay R. Zay]

Nah, its not that bad. Besides both my grandmothers are dead, so they can do what they want. I am a big believer that if we (the US) can have nukes, then hell why cant everyone. What makes the US so great that we can tell who can and who cant have what. Hell If Iran starts making world class wine, then, damn I will be pissed. Bombs of Baghdad, how about Cab over Cairo! Besides to millions of people here they are all Satan, and we have nukes, so why don't we use 'em?

Hakuna Matata

well the USA is a stable system and is used to the responsibility of nuclear weapons. while you were noobs in this field, you abused it by nuking japan twice. but now you've grown more mature about nuclear weapons, especially, after fearing their power all through the cold war.

iran never has had nuclear weapons before, iran never had much responsibility for anything. and iran is very unstable. the government can be changed by force in a matter of days, the population is mostly poor and there is strong anti-western and religious propaganda. nuclear weapons are nowhere in good hands but you can't compare the US to iran.

[roundshort]

Still, I am not a fan of the US telling who can and who can't have things, I think time and time again the UN has proven to be about as useful as the league of Nations (wonder why the US never joined . . .) Lets face it, any country wiht the $$$ will be able to have Nukes any year now. By the US taking a major stand in telling the world what they can or can't do will only bring the ire of some rouge nation sooner than later. You have to excuse me I lose track of which I-country is on the good list vs. bad list with the US, I mean keeping up with that is a full time job!

"An armed society is a polite society"

[indifan101]

Roundshort, we gonna finish our story?

[Jay R. Zay]

Still, I am not a fan of the US telling who can and who can't have things, I think time and time again the UN has proven to be about as useful as the league of Nations (wonder why the US never joined . . .) Lets face it, any country wiht the $$$ will be able to have Nukes any year now. By the US taking a major stand in telling the world what they can or can't do will only bring the ire of some rouge nation sooner than later. You have to excuse me I lose track of which I-country is on the good list vs. bad list with the US, I mean keeping up with that is a full time job!

"An armed society is a polite society"

ahm, i was the liberal, you were the nuker. you forgot?:confused:

;)

it's not just the US. we're all worried about iran, especially as they (unlike north korea) said that they had nuclear weapons and wanted to use them. you can't stand by and watch in such a situation, can you?

[Paden]

Still, I am not a fan of the US telling who can and who can't have things
So I'm guessing that if the United States helps bomb Iran flat, it will be their way of saying, "By the way, you can't have those." :)
"An armed society is a polite society"
In the context of this conversation, I couldn't help but picture a radiation suit clad John Cleese standing in the midst of an annihilated urban wasteland (ala The Terminator) saying something along the lines of, "Well then, it's a great deal more polite around here now, wouldn't you say?" ;)

[roundshort]

Paden, it is good to have you back, I think that is post of the year. I have a similar scene, but it is with Bush and folks standing around a room with monitors that are all live TV feeds of barren wastlands, still smoking, each moniters is labels, Iran, Iraq, North Korea, India, Pakistain, and Cheney is saying somehting like, well, looks like Halburton will need to hire more people . . .

[San Holo]

Still, I am not a fan of the US telling who can and who can't have things, I think time and time again the UN has proven to be about as useful as the league of Nations (wonder why the US never joined . . .) Lets face it, any country wiht the $$$ will be able to have Nukes any year now. By the US taking a major stand in telling the world what they can or can't do will only bring the ire of some rouge nation sooner than later. You have to excuse me I lose track of which I-country is on the good list vs. bad list with the US, I mean keeping up with that is a full time job!

"An armed society is a polite society"
So, you are saying let Iran have their nukes? And when they use them (and you know they will) on Israel, Israel will empty their arsenal back towards Iran. Once that cat is out of the bag, Israel might as well take care of that 'lil Palestinian problem while they are at it. If a Dutch cartoon can send the world's radical muslim population into a kill frenzy, imagine if Israel wiped out millions of muslims in a nuclear war. All of that would spill over into your daily life when some jihadist runs you over in a SUV while you are walking into your local Starbucks. The US is gonna be hated anyways, so I would not be to concerned with the ire of rouge nations.

[roundshort]

Ah, let em, at this point does it really matter, I saw this movie about a huge astroid the size of Texas that was about to hit the earth, so death will coem to us all at some point, maybe by us, maybe by nature, hell, maybe another 40 day/40 night flood (if you believe int hat crap)

[Paden]

All of that would spill over into your daily life when some jihadist runs you over in a SUV while you are walking into your local Starbucks.
While I agree that the U.S. would face some real repercussions from terrorist factions were a scenario like you describe to occur, if a bunch of nations start lobbing nuclear weapons at each other, I think most of the world will have another batch of pretty serious problems (http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Nwfaq/Nfaq5.html) once the mushroom clouds fade.

[Joe Brody]

While I agree that the U.S. would face some real repercussions from terrorist factions were a scenario like you describe to occur, if a bunch of nations start lobbing nuclear weapons at each other, I think most of the world will have another batch of pretty serious problems (http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Nwfaq/Nfaq5.html) once the mushroom clouds fade.

Like the Northern Snakehead?

http://nationalatlas.gov/articles/biology/IMAGES/snakehead.gif

[Paden]

I was thinking more in terms of fallout, but if you happen to be in Maryland, you might have a real problem on your hands. You take some predatory Chinese fish, throw in a few radioactive isotopes, shake well, and who knows what you might be in for? Boating enthusiasts disappearing by the dozens. If Israel nukes the Palestinians, it would probably be wise to postpone any planned fishing trips to the Maryland area, at least for a month or so. ;)

[Joe Brody]

Chernobyl Snakeheads. I know I hate 'em.

[sorry for hijacking a quasi-serious thread.]

[roundshort]

Chernobyl Snakeheads. I know I hate 'em.

[sorry for hijacking a quasi-serious thread.]

Thats good eatin' where I'm from, remeber lampreys are one of the main foods in Bordeaux!

[San Holo]

.

Iran will not stop the enrichment of uranium, and denied the UN's requests to cease. Denied is putting it nicely. Pretty much, Iran told us to #!%@ ourselves.The United Nations is gutless and will do alot of barking, but no biting. They are threatening sanctions- but our good buddies Russia and China insisted economic sanctions or military action did not belong on the table.The UN's final declaration is a watered-down version of a Franco-British draft, in what was seen as a bid please Russia and China, which have opposed any hint of measures against Iran, an ally and key trading partner. So, it's obvious that sanctions are going to be worthless, as Russia and China will buy whatever Iran is selling. Iran will proceed with the nuclear program and use them as soon as they can. They want a nuke, well hell, let's give it to 'em.

[San Holo]

Almost 2 years later, and Ahmadinejad is still begging for a Daisy-Cutter salad. Today Iran test fired 9 long range missiles that could carry a nice nuclear payload deep into the heart of Tel Aviv. I wonder how much more Israel will take, before they strike Iran? If I was a gambling man, I would bet the farm that it will be before Bush leaves office. What do you guys think?

[Nurhachi1991]

I hope Israel nukes the **** out of Iran and they can do it to very easily.

[Agent Spalko]

NUKE 'EM!

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[eroc]

Nobody needs to nuke anybody.

I do bet Bush attacks before he leaves office. I think Iran has been part of the plan from the beginning. This is a Neo-Con wet dream.

[Nurhachi1991]

Im with Spalko on this one NUKE EM!

[Indy~Annie]

Well, Iran has kicked out weapons inspectors to put the finishing touches on their nukes. They have a radical leader,who was a terrorist in the Iranian Hostage crisis. He has vowed to blow Israel off the map, while his countrymen chant "Death to America". How long will it be before we invade? Should we?

advise....do not start war threads here

people are very edgy on that subject.:sick: lol :p

[Indy&HanFan]

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i didn't actually read any of this thread. i just saw iran, so i knew i couldn't pass up this opportunity :up:

[DarthMickey]

Invade No- Show the who's Boss-Oh Hell yes!

Iran go Boom!!!!!!!!!!!!:dead: :dead: :dead: :dead:

[The Man]

Wouldn't it be wonderful if the Western world could harness its own energy resources and leave them all - Iraqis, Iranians', Palestinians, Israelis, the lot - to pathetically duke it out amongst themselves. And for those 'bleeding hearts' who believe this Western absence to be cruel or expeditious? No. It really isn't.

If Israel sank into the sea tomorrow, the Palestinians would suddenly find another country that has "aggrieved" them. The Israeli government have behaved equally disgracefully down through the years. That's all they want: to fight. Fight, fight, fight.

The United Nations should work to disarm such countries of any nuclear arms and them kiss them all an overdue goodbye.

What a farcical waste of time the Middle East really is.

Simplistic? Think about it. What's it worth?

[Agent Spalko]

Wouldn't it be wonderful if the Western world could harness its own energy resources and leave them all - Iraqis, Iranians', Palestinians, Israelis, the lot - to pathetically duke it out amongst themselves. And for those 'bleeding hearts' who believe this Western absence to be cruel or expeditious? No. It really isn't.

If Israel sank into the sea tomorrow, the Palestinians would suddenly find another country that has "aggrieved" them. The Israeli government have behaved equally disgracefully down through the years. That's all they want: to fight. Fight, fight, fight.

The United Nations should work to disarm such countries of any nuclear arms and them kiss them all an overdue goodbye.

What a farcical waste of time the Middle East really is.

Simplistic? Think about it. What's it worth?

Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could just nuke the entire middle east off the face of the Earth? Simplistic. Think about it.

[The Man]

Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could just nuke the entire middle east off the face of the Earth? Simplistic. Think about it.

I probably wouldn't agree fully with that - not publicly at least (ahem) - but let's just say that I know exactly how you feel.

[Agent Spalko]

Osama Bin Laden is probably hiding in a lead-lined refrigerator right now. :rolleyes:

[Agent Z]

Osama Bin Laden is probably hiding in a lead-lined refrigerator right now. :rolleyes:

In that case, it would just be a matter of two beards enabling another beard.

[The Man]

Osama Bin Laden is probably hiding in a lead-lined refrigerator right now. :rolleyes:

With well-armed 'friend' on guard...

http://www.politopics.com/uploaded_images/Osama-713209.jpg