WGA: Raiders 42nd Greatest Screenplay

[Moedred]

The Writers Guild of America votes for Lawrence Kasdan.
Indy's on lots of top 100 lists, but this one is... artsier.
And for some reason the silent films didn't rank at all...
http://www.wga.org/subpage_newsevents.aspx?id=1807

[Joe Brody]

Comparing the Raiders screenplay to other great all-time films is a neat topic.

In reviewing the list, it seemed that at least two bias's were at work -- one, an age bias, and two, a genre bias -- that led to certain films doing better than they should.

I assume the WGA is comprised mostly of old white guys . . . and human nature being what it is, its safe to assuemleft alone, that they're going to come up with a list favoring films from their generation and other films they fondly recall from their youth -- this is the Age Bias. As for the Genre Bias, this could actually be called a 'comedy bias.' I bet a lot of the WGA members wrote comedy and not surprisingly works of comedy are well represented in the list. I'll be the first to admit that writing good comedy is tough but I don't think that many of the comedies listed are superior to Raiders based on the screenplay.

Among the films (listed superior to Raiders) that I put in the Age & Genre Bias category are:

The Graduate -- sure the film has great memorable scenes, a timely, tantalizing story, and great acting -- but who care about anything at the end of the film? Who even remembers the end? The Graduate is always on the big lists, and I submit it is there largely because of massive Age and Genre Bias.

Annie Hall -- Same thing. Given how much of the film was ad-libbed and auto-biographical, Massive bias had to be at work for this film to be so high on the list. Notably, ask yourself has the movie aged well? Guess what? Younger audiences could give a damn about the old perv.

Butch Cassidy, The Sting, and Tootsie. Massive Age Bias. Again, have these films aged well? Are young people watching them?

Midnight Cowboy -- important breakthrough film -- but the 36th greatest screenplay of all time? It could possibly be in my top 100 -- but 36th?

Groundhog Day -- one trick gimmick film with a great, great leading talent. 27th greatest screenplay? Is the WGA drunk? I love and greatly respect Harold Ramis's talent but this ranking is largely due to the cult following the film has developed. Want a smart, nuanced, well-written comedy? Where's the Big Lewbowski?

The Apartment, Some Like It Hot -- funny, funny films from their era with top flight talent. I think nostalgia is at work here. Take away the talent and these films are significantly degraded.

Network -- who cares by the end? The boomers and older generations are mad as Hell and they're not going to let us forget it!

So where would I put Raiders? Around thirty. I was thrilled to see Eternal Sunshine rate so high and I'm glad that Goodfellas came in ahead of Raiders. I would have had Silence of the Lambs, LA Confidential and Jerry Maguire much higher up on the list.

[roundshort]

I htought it was a good list. there are some other bias's at work, but I can understand why you wouldn't want to write about them Joe. I think, Do the Right Thing, was robbed at 93, and Memento at 100 is crazy, but that is one of those, you love it or hate it, (I hated it), the fact Sideways is ont he list at all, proves your aging white guy thing is real! Princess Bride at 84, ok,

too many Woody Allen, and not enough Horror, I feel that Dawn of the Dead shoudl have had a spot, and I won't even go into no Caddyshack . . .

[Paden]

I can't really take issue with the top five, but once I drop below that, I start to disagree with varying levels of conviction. :) I concur with the idea that the likes of Network and Some Like It Hot are placed far too high on the list, especially in relation to scripts like Lawrence of Arabia, On the Waterfront, and Dr. Strangelove. I was glad to see Unforgiven as high on the list as it was, although I would have placed its cousin, The Wild Bunch, much higher than ninety-nine. In my mind, The Searchers also deserved a better ranking, as did the solid scripts for both Psycho and Rear Window. I also would've pushed Huston's script for The Maltese Falcon further up the ladder.

And yeah, I think Raiders could move up as well. I was pretty pleased to see it rank a good twenty-six places above Star Wars though. :)

[Deadlock]

Hey guys, remember that this list is supposed to be about screenplays NOT the films themselves. So, trying to forget the film themselves and focus on the screenplay is the difficulty here. (Especially because I, for one, haven't read most of these screenplays.)

What makes a screenplay great apart from the film? Well, there's going to be any of about zillion different criteria. But here's what I can come up with:

1. Memorable characters
2. Memorable dialogue
3. Memorable plot
4. Emotional impact
5. Unique concept
6. Creative use of (or disregard for) genre
7. Difficulty of execution
8. Influence

(Writing quality is assumed.)

Okay, 1 through 4 ought to be pretty self-explanatory.

I imagine #5 as the concept the writer would have to pitch. There are plenty of great and popular movies where the concept seems sort of like "so what?".

"A young member of a mafia clan takes on a role never intended for him and rises to leadership of the family, through brains and brutality."

Maybe it was fresh at the time, but the concept just doesn't seem very novel or unique to me. I think #5 is why Groundhog Day got on the list (though I can't say I approve of where it is on the list). (I also think it's something of the heir apparent to the It's a Wonderful Life Throne.)

I think #6 is the reason why Butch and Sundance made the list... A buddy/action/comedy/anti-western? Not many of those. (But I will always harbor a certain amount of ill will toward this movie because of the freakin' Burt Bacharach soundtrack... and my mom's tendency to listen to said soundtrack. :rolleyes: But once again, that's got nothing to do with the screenplay.)

#7 could apply to a) the adaptation of a non-film; b) the difficulty of the genre; C) the complexity of the storyline; d) the difficulty of the concept.

Rear Window springs to mind here... a suspense film where the main character never leaves his room? Wow. That's hard.

I have my own favorites that I'd like to see on this list...

1. Pitch Black
2. Die Hard
3. Gattaca
4. Ocean's Eleven
5. Pirates of the Caribbean

Great scripts.




Joe, I agree that the biases you identified are definitely at work. But your bias for younger, more contemporary sentiments is basically affirmative action for films. (Also... clean out your PM box, young man.) :)

[Paden]

I'd have to agree that Die Hard rates inclusion on the basis of its outstanding dialogue, if nothing else. I'm inclined to agree with the inclusion of Pitch Black as well. I tend to think that particular film has been underrated, wrongfully dismissed as nothing but a genre film when it actually offers some interesting commentary on human nature and societal roles. It's a very well plotted story which moves at exactly the right pace throughout.

Speaking of omissions, I would think Se7en merited inclusion as well, both for exceptional dialogue and well crafted characters.

[roundshort]

Hey guys, remember that this list is supposed to be about screenplays NOT the films themselves. So, trying to forget the film themselves and focus on the screenplay is the difficulty here. (Especially because I, for one, haven't read most of these screenplays.)

What makes a screenplay great apart from the film? Well, there's going to be any of about zillion different criteria. But here's what I can come up with:

1. Memorable characters
2. Memorable dialogue
3. Memorable plot
4. Emotional impact
5. Unique concept
6. Creative use of (or disregard for) genre
7. Difficulty of execution
8. Influence

(Writing quality is assumed.)

Okay, 1 through 4 ought to be pretty self-explanatory.

I imagine #5 as the concept the writer would have to pitch. There are plenty of great and popular movies where the concept seems sort of like "so what?".

"A young member of a mafia clan takes on a role never intended for him and rises to leadership of the family, through brains and brutality."

Maybe it was fresh at the time, but the concept just doesn't seem very novel or unique to me. I think #5 is why Groundhog Day got on the list (though I can't say I approve of where it is on the list). (I also think it's something of the heir apparent to the It's a Wonderful Life Throne.)

I think #6 is the reason why Butch and Sundance made the list... A buddy/action/comedy/anti-western? Not many of those. (But I will always harbor a certain amount of ill will toward this movie because of the freakin' Burt Bacharach soundtrack... and my mom's tendency to listen to said soundtrack. :rolleyes: But once again, that's got nothing to do with the screenplay.)

#7 could apply to a) the adaptation of a non-film; b) the difficulty of the genre; C) the complexity of the storyline; d) the difficulty of the concept.

Rear Window springs to mind here... a suspense film where the main character never leaves his room? Wow. That's hard.

I have my own favorites that I'd like to see on this list...

1. Pitch Black
2. Die Hard
3. Gattaca
4. Ocean's Eleven
5. Pirates of the Caribbean

Great scripts.




Joe, I agree that the biases you identified are definitely at work. But your bias for younger, more contemporary sentiments is basically affirmative action for films. (Also... clean out your PM box, young man.) :)



Given those that, what about buddy movies like Cnnonball Run or Caddshack.
If you go on about memorable characters, dialouge, plot, and INFLUENCE< I think you Caddyshack as to be ont he top of the list. You can not watch ESPN Sportscenter more than 2 or 3 times without a reference to a cacter or, plot line, or quote. Hell we used to work entire shifts with nothign from lines form Caddyshack.

Like all lists, these are made because people have nothing better to do. I would agree that Pirates of the Caribbean should be on the, mainly because it was derived from a ride!

[Deadlock]

Die Hard not only has great dialogue and characters, but is actually quite sophisticated in a number of respects:

1. Plot structure: instead of the protagonist driving the story, the antagonist drives the story and the protagonist reacts. This basically spawned an entire sub-genre of action/suspense movies. I.E. Speed is Die Hard on a bus.
2. Subplots: Die Hard weaves in its subplots so well, it really is an example that other films could use to follow:

John’s relationship with Holly: I love the final resolution of this love versus career subplot... that Holly has to let go of the Rolex, the symbol of her professional success, to finally kill off the villain.
The cowboy way: this is so much clearer in reading the screenplay, but there cowboy references throughout. This subplot contrasts McClane to the traits of three different sets of opponents: the foreign intellectualism of Hans (in terms of manner and expression), bureaucratic impotence of the LAPD (in terms of action), but also to the “ends justifies the means” FBI clowns (in terms of morality). My favorite thing, that I never noticed until I read the screenplay, is in the final shoot out with Hans and Eddie: John blows the smoke off his pistol. Such a great touch. :)
There are others with Powell and Thornburg, but the first two are my favorites.


The character development and interaction in Pitch Black is phenomenal. I guess I’m not surprised that many people can’t get past the B-movie trappings. But it’s a great script. It’s really interesting in the screenplay (I don't know if this is isolated to an earlier draft), the Imam and his boys are described as “Chrislams”, some merging of two religions. It’s not essential to the plot, but it is different.

I love it when movies are appealing and compelling at first glance, but having surprising depth when you stop to think about it. (Pirates of the Caribbean is like this as well.)

[roundshort]

Here are a few I would have included on my list:

High Plains Drifter
12 Angry Men
P.O.Caribbean
Caddyshack
Animal House
Basketball Diaries
Kids
Friday the 13th

[Moedred]

I'm not surprised three Charlie Kaufman scripts made the list (Being John Malkovich, Adaptation, and Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind). Writers love Kaufman as much as they hated Joe Eszterhaus.

Adaptation is semi-autobiographical. Kaufman (Nicholas Cage) has writers block, so he takes a screenwriting seminar. He's mumbling to himself when the speaker says, "God help you if you use voice-over in your work, my friends. God help you. That's flaccid, sloppy writing. Any idiot can write a voice-over narration to explain the thoughts of a character." Silence. It's hilarious. They loved the in-jokes so much they nominated him and ficticious twin brother Donald Kaufman for an Academy Award.

[Joe Brody]

I'm not surprised three Charlie Kaufman scripts made the list (Being John Malkovich, Adaptation, and Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind). Writers love Kaufman as much as they hated Joe Eszterhaus.

Interesting post Moedred. As for me, I love Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind but can't stand either Being John Malkovich or Adaptation.

"[TheDie Hard] subplot contrasts McClane to the traits of three different sets of opponents . . .There are others [...] but the first two are my favorites.

My favorite? Blue Collar Cop vs. White Collar Wimp.

Harry Ellis: Hey babe, I negotiate million dollar deals for breakfast. I think I can handle this Eurotrash.