The Mercenary Fraternity

[Paden]

Although I’m a fan of all three films in the Indiana Jones franchise, I’ve been pretty open in the past about my favoritism toward Raiders of the Lost Ark. In considering that movie over the weekend, I came to the conclusion that one of the reasons I enjoy the film as much as I do lies in the fact that at several points during the progression of the plot, Raiders hints at a much larger back story. Throughout the movie, there are clues that tell the viewers that a great deal of history has transpired prior to Jones’ race for the Ark, and the events that the audience are witnessing bear the influence of many past conflicts and alliances.

In my mind, one of the high marks of Raiders is the conflict between Jones and Belloq. Although Jones has a clear personal investment in rescuing his father in Lat Crusade, none of the other films offer the kind of personal animosity and rivalry that we see between these two competitors in Raiders. When Belloq snatches the fertility idol away from Indiana at the movie’s opening, it’s clear that it is not the first time that Belloq has been able to wrest a hard-earned prize out of Jones’ grasp. The two have had a long, hostile association. Interestingly, in the same opening sequence, Indiana also makes reference to the mysterious Forrestal, another rival that he expresses a certain grudging respect for. It isn’t long into Jones’ venture into the Chachapoyan temple that we learn what Forrestal’s gruesome fate was.

I’ve often wished that the subsequent films in the trilogy had explored some of Jones’ rivals further. Indiana doesn’t encounter another shady archaeologist until he runs into Elsa in Last Crusade, but the two don’t have any kind of history, which is part of the reason her deception ultimately works. It would have been interesting to see Jones contend with other practitioners of the shadow side of archaeology and to learn more about how the black market for rare antiquities functioned. Intrinsically tied to this group of fortune hunters is Abner Ravenwood, Indiana’s mentor and former friend who, by implication, was willing to skirt traditional archaeological methods in his pursuit of the Ark of the Covenant, and who likely played a formative role in teaching Jones about the shadow side of archaeology.

In the absence of information from the films themselves, we’re left with speculation. And for some reason, I was in a speculative mood this weekend. Taking into consideration the information at hand and some of the past conjecture that’s taken place on these forums, I gathered the following ideas regarding the brotherhood of mercenaries that Jones finds himself a part of:

1. Motivations differ. In the aftermath of the Chachapoyan temple incident, when Jones is speaking with Marcus Brody about the fertility idol, it seems clear that Indiana’s intention was to sell the idol to the National Museum. This is reinforced later when, in his discussion with Brody about the Army wanting him to pursue the Ark, Jones wants to be certain that the museum will ultimately get the Ark, when all is said and done. As depicted here, Jones thirst for fortune and glory is balanced by his desire to see the artifacts he retrieves preserved for history. (I’m not certain that Indiana’s motives were always that noble. In my mind, his dealings with Lao Che in Temple of Doom raise some questions in that regard.) When Jones discusses where Belloq may have taken the idol, he mentions his suspicion that his rival has taken it to Marrakesh, where he could locate a buyer for the piece. It would seem that Belloq’s interest in the idol was more motivated by profit than its historical value. I tend to believe that Belloq’s interest in the Ark was motivated by his interest in its mystical powers, but its notable that in his pursuit of it, Belloq was willing to ally himself with a reprehensible regime, with the knowledge that possession of the Ark would ultimately fall to them, something Jones could never conscience. Even Indian’s mentor, Ravenwood, did not seem to share his protégé’s concern for historical preservation, given the fact that he retained possession of many of the artifacts that he retrieved. Clearly, motivations vary greatly amongst these adventurers.

2. Abilities vary. Jones doesn’t shirk from the need to place himself in physical peril while pursuing a given prize. Given the method of Forrestal’s demise, as well as Jones’ respect, it seems fair to assume that Forrestal shared in Indiana’s “hands on” approach to the business. But I think it is questionable to presume that Belloq did. Given Belloq’s propensity to allow allies like the Hovitos and the Nazis to handle physical conflict, it seems that he tended to avoid such confrontations, affecting his captures through planning and manipulation. It’s been conjectured elsewhere on these forums that Marcus Brody likely accomplished his goals through similar, less physical means. Obviously, the University of Chicago didn’t offer “Fundamentals of Gunplay” in its archaeology curriculum. Nor, for that matter, did it offer coursework on developing underworld/black market connections. Each participant in this dangerous business brings certain unique talents to it that enable them to compete effectively with the other formidable participants in the field. I honestly question if archaeological knowledge is a prerequisite. In my mind, some well connected and able soldiers of fortune could function quite well as grave robbers, given the right leads and information.

3. By necessity, it requires involvement with a rough crowd. The means by which some artifacts are pursued requires that fortune hunters move in some dark circles to accomplish their quests. By means of example, it seems clear by implication that when Lao Che wanted the remains of Nurhachi recovered, he knew who to seek out for the task. It’s somewhat obvious in the opening sequence of Raiders that Barranca and Satipo leave a lot to be desired in the morality department, but their possession of part of the map made them necessary allies to Jones. When a drunken and grieving Jones confronts Belloq in the Cairo saloon, it becomes quickly apparent that Belloq has had no difficulty in locating some native thugs that were willing to dispatch his rivals for him. My point being that concourse with ne’er-do-wells and even the overtly criminal element is commonplace for men in Jones’ profession, a necessary evil in the pursuit of the prize. One that some are no doubt more comfortable with than others.

4. It is a small group. The combination of knowledge and ability required to be successful in such a perilous field of endeavor would, by definition, make the number of individuals that could succeed (and survive) in it for any length of time few and far between. Some of the dialogue in Raiders makes it clear that Jones, Belloq, and Forrestal were familiar with each other. No doubt the field is small enough that competitors know their rivals well.

5. They are regarded differently by their scientific counterparts. This last point is pure conjecture on my part, but I would presume that amongst those archaeologists that adhere to accepted methods, Jones and company are looked upon with anything from grudging acceptance to outright disdain. I would think that many archaeologists would see the methods used by the mercenary group as often doing more harm than good in the preservation of history. Nonetheless, it’s apparent that some, like Jones, Brody, and Ravenwood do obtain positions in academia. To theorize about Ravenwood, I would imagine that given his presumed ability to obtain antiquities of note and his doubtlessly encyclopedic knowledge of the ancient Middle East, an institution like the University of Chicago was willing to tolerate his more unorthodox methods in light of some of the contributions he could make. Given the slipshod teaching style we see from Jones in the trilogy, I would imagine his museum contributions (and connection to Brody) constituted a large part of the rationale for his professorship.

I’m hoping that these thoughts may prompt some thoughts from the membership here, particularly if any think something was omitted or one of these ideas was completely off-base. I think it’s an interesting aspect of the series to consider, one that I wish had been given greater consideration in the films following Raiders.

[Doc Savage]

Wow. You've put some thought in to this, Paden.

Just a couple of things your discourse brought up in the old memory banks. Remember when belloq said, "Archaeology is our religion. But we've both fallen from the pure faith"? I always imagined Indy an archaeologist only in the classroom. Outside of that, he's a treasure hunter at best estimation, a mercenary in general opinion. Once the whip comes out and the fedora is donned, the Ph.D. is non-applicable. Even his role for the university at times seemed clandestine (i.e., Brody was unwilling to go into details about Indy's failed retrieval of the Chachapoyan idol ).

Bear in mind the Coronado plunderer in LC was rumored to be Abner Ravenwood. Indy's adamant stance on historic preservation was evident even at that young age ("It belongs in a museum!"). But Ravenwood's impact on him that day obviously spurred him into the "treasure hunter" archetype, even if it was to procure said treasure for posterity's sake. Again, Belloq's allusion that he was a "shadowy reflection" of Indy and that only a nusge would push Indy out of the light. Indy is, indeed, a mercenary, but only wittingly for hire to the good guys.

But that's just my opinion.

[IndyBuff]

Excellent thoughts Paden and Doc Savage. I have always been interested with the relationship between Indy and Belloq in Raiders and it's clear that this isn't the first time that they have crossed each other.

This is one reason why I'm such a big fan of the novels. Granted, not everyone likes them or considers them as part of the Indy timeline, but I do. While we're unsure of exactly when and where Belloq and Jones first met, we do know that it must have been quite a while before the events of Raiders. Indiana Jones and the Dinosaur Eggs takes place in 1933 and the book opens with Belloq trying to take an artifact from Indy. It's apparent here that they have met before so obviously they were rivals before 1933. They meet again in Indiana Jones and the Hollow Earth, which is set in 1934. Indy and Belloq even go so far as to have a "pistols at dawn" shootout in a graveyard in New Orleans. Indy is injured but both men leave and go about their seperate ways.

It has been a few months since I read those novels so someone else can feel free to add in any comments or pieces of information that I missed. I just wish we could go back to the beginning and see were they really began. Then again, that would take some of the imagination and wonder out of it.:)

[Doc Savage]

I knew I'd left something important out of my post...

I've read both of those and had meant to discuss that aspect of it. It's been two years (I was reading them in the hospital when my daughter was born/jaundiced and my wife slept), and most of what I remember involves New Orleans and a German sub...I'll have to reread them. Working on Dance of the Giants right now.

[Joe Brody]

Interesting stuff, I want to stew over this before giving a more indepth post.

5. They are regarded differently by their scientific counterparts.

In an article in last week's New Yorker, two thirtysomething female Archaeologist lament this very situation in talking about their excavations of the Donner party camp in California. In many ways, I think archaeolgy of our recent past is more interesting.

[Paden]

I always imagined Indy an archaeologist only in the classroom. Outside of that, he's a treasure hunter at best estimation, a mercenary in general opinion. Once the whip comes out and the fedora is donned, the Ph.D. is non-applicable.
I'd always assumed that Jones considered his academic career as a necessary evil, the day job he has to keep to pay the bills in between quests. Your comment almost made me wonder if Jones might consider the mantle of archaeologist as nothing but a pretense, viewing the science as providing him one of several sets of tools he needs to pursue his true vocation.
Indy's adamant stance on historic preservation was evident even at that young age ("It belongs in a museum!"). But Ravenwood's impact on him that day obviously spurred him into the "treasure hunter" archetype, even if it was to procure said treasure for posterity's sake.
The idea of "Fedora" being Ravenwood has been the subject of some interesting discussion (http://raven.theraider.net/showthread.php?t=8345) previously. (You'll also note several ideas postulated in that thread that influenced my thoughts here.) I'm personally torn on whether the adventurer in LC's opening sequence should be Ravenwood. Either way, the character of Abner Ravenwood is one I enjoy speculating on, in part because he was clearly a strong influence on Jones. I tend to believe, although I don't have a thing from the scripts to back this idea up, that Ravenwood started his career with the same kind of morality regarding historical artifacts that Jones has, but that his initial idealism slowly fell to the wayside as his obsession for the Ark grew.
Indy is, indeed, a mercenary, but only wittingly for hire to the good guys.
Agreed. My only struggle with this, in the context of the movies, is Jones working for Lao Che in Temple of Doom. His actions there also seem to contradict his "belongs in a museum" philosophy. But given the fact that Doom is a prequel, perhaps Jones' ethics regarding his profession are still in formation. Or perhaps the funds from Nurhachi were meant to fund a quest of greater importance to Jones, and in his mind the ends justified the means.
This is one reason why I'm such a big fan of the novels.
Confession: I've never cracked open any of the McCoy novels. In point of fact, the only Indiana Jones novel I've read is Campbell Black's novelization of Raiders. Still, I would be curious to see how the ongoing rivalry between Belloq and Jones is treated. I have to confess, in my own conception, Belloq engaging in a lone gune duel with Jones seems almost antithetical to his character. Belloq has always struck me as a manipulator, adept at stacking the odds in his favor and avoiding risky situations. Still, I have to admit that the above ground graveyards in New Orleans provide an excellent stage for an effective action scene. :)

EDIT:
In an article in last week's New Yorker, two thirtysomething female Archaeologist lament this very situation in talking about their excavations of the Donner party camp in California.Interesting dynamic. I may need to hunt a copy down and give it a read.

[Doc Savage]

This may have been one of the gray areas...but Indy did trade the remains of Nurhachi for the Peacock's Eye. Maybe he considered the hoss-mamma diamond of more historical significance.

[Joe Brody]

Either way, the character of Abner Ravenwood is one I enjoy speculating on, in part because he was clearly a strong influence on Jones. I tend to believe, although I don't have a thing from the scripts to back this idea up, that Ravenwood started his career with the same kind of morality regarding historical artifacts that Jones has, but that his initial idealism slowly fell to the wayside as his obsession for the Ark grew.

As to Abner, what if he were just stoic John Houseman figure, all upright and proper? A man who was the target of massive misdirected hostility; hostility that should have been directed to Henry Senior. Perhaps Abner wasn't obessed at all. He was a true academic, not Don Quixote.

[Paden]

My presumption, which admittedly could be erroneous, was that Abner was Jones’ mentor in the dark side of archaeology, the one who introduced him to that dangerous world and taught him some fundamentals regarding how to survive within it. I’d also always presumed that Henry Jones Sr. had been the primary source of Indiana’s intellectual development, as well as his foundational familiarity with the ancient world. Granted, it would be a disservice to the character of Indiana to render him only the sum of other characters’ influences, but in my mind these two men had the strongest impact on him, at least from what we can glean from the films, and I’ve long thought that their effect on Jones was in building opposite sides of his character, the intellectual and adventurer aspects, if you will.

On the other hand, I guess there is room for the argument that Jones could have ventured down the mercenary road in reaction to a disillusionment with the path espoused by both his father and his mentor/father figure. It’s plausible that Jones could have watched his father toil for years with research, only to remain stymied by the Grail’s location, and then observed Abner conduct dig after careful dig, obtaining trinkets that pointed to the Ark of the Covenant, but never the Ark itself. Maybe Jones became a mercenary out of the determination to reach the prize by whatever means were needed, vowing never to be empty-handed and obsessed like the men that had guided him in his early life. I will say this, even though I’m not completely sold on the idea, it does ring true to my perception of the independent, “self-made” aspect of Indiana Jones. The transference of hostility from father to mentor is a very compelling and fitting concept.

I suppose the strongest evidence, at least in my perception, that Ravenwood was more of a mercenary, lies in the fact that he had kept numerous archaeological finds in his possession, most of them likely tied to the Ark is some fashion. That doesn’t seem the act of one who respects the normal tenets of archaeology, and it would seem easier for a lone adventurer to spirit away such valuable pieces undetected, than for the head of a large archaeological dig/expedition. That said, it doesn’t mean that Ravenwood, in the latter position, couldn’t pull such pilfering off, were he careful and clever enough. To me, the mercenary method just seems to fit better.

[Joe Brody]

My presumption, which admittedly could be erroneous, was that Abner was Jones’ mentor in the dark side of archaeology, the one who introduced him to that dangerous world and taught him some fundamentals regarding how to survive within it..

I'd say that's the consensus view, and it's the view that I've subscribed to for some time. As always, its fun to kick around alternatives since there's so much empty canvas. No right or wrong answers here.


On the other hand, I guess there is room for the argument that Jones could have ventured down the mercenary road in reaction to a disillusionment with the path espoused by both his father and his mentor/father figure. It’s plausible that Jones could have watched his father toil for years with research, only to remain stymied by the Grail’s location, and then observed Abner conduct dig after careful dig, obtaining trinkets that pointed to the Ark of the Covenant, but never the Ark itself. Maybe Jones became a mercenary out of the determination to reach the prize by whatever means were needed, vowing never to be empty-handed and obsessed like the men that had guided him in his early life. I will say this, even though I’m not completely sold on the idea, it does ring true to my perception of the independent, “self-made” aspect of Indiana Jones..

I like rationale. It's like he chose [and I hate to say this] the dark side to acheive his objectives.

The transference of hostility from father to mentor is a very compelling and fitting concept.

That's what draws me to it. Indy's anger is such a great part of his early persona. That anger makes more sense if he was frustation by Both father and teacher.

I suppose the strongest evidence, at least in my perception, that Ravenwood was more of a mercenary, lies in the fact that he had kept numerous archaeological finds in his possession, most of them likely tied to the Ark is some fashion.

That's just it. Back in the day, its not like Abner could get one of Trinkets FedEx'd from back at the Museum if he needed it to further his work.

[Doc Savage]

He WAS working for the Nazi's, albeit probably in an unwilling capacity. He may have tucked them away to keep them from the "goose-stepping morons."

[Paden]

In the spirit of playing with the empty canvas, I had an idea while contemplating some of the things that had already been considered thus far. Is it possible that, early in the evolution of both of their careers, Belloq and Jones were friends? Could they have cooperated on an expedition during the initial phases of their archaeological pursuits? Could Belloq have been one of the formative influences that introduced Jones to the shadow side of archaeology, or made him aware of its existence? Nothing creates animosity more effectively than a friendship broken by betrayal. Could Belloq have deceived Jones during a joint venture in order to steal a prize for himself? Given the depth of animosity between the two, I could see a former friendly association being plausible.

Or maybe I just haven’t had enough coffee this morning. :)

He WAS working for the Nazi's, albeit probably in an unwilling capacity. He may have tucked them away to keep them from the "goose-stepping morons."
"Ravenwood's no Nazi." ;)

I was under the impression that Ravenwood had not actually worked for the Nazi regime, only that they were interested in him because of the work he had done regarding the Ark. Although Army Intelligence were concerned over the Nazi mention of Ravenwood, my impression was they were seeking him out for what he possessed (i.e. the headpiece), not that he had been in their employ.

[Deadlock]

In the spirit of playing with the empty canvas, I had an idea while contemplating some of the things that had already been considered thus far. Is it possible that, early in the evolution of both of their careers, Belloq and Jones were friends? Could they have cooperated on an expedition during the initial phases of their archaeological pursuits? Could Belloq have been one of the formative influences that introduced Jones to the shadow side of archaeology, or made him aware of its existence? Nothing creates animosity more effectively than a friendship broken by betrayal. Could Belloq have deceived Jones during a joint venture in order to steal a prize for himself? Given the depth of animosity between the two, I could see a former friendly association being plausible.

Oh wow.

This a groundbreaking theory... and I really like it. :)

I don't think that Belloq would have introduced Indy to the archaelogical underworld (Brody and Abner seemed too well-versed and more obvious mentors). Isn't it interesting that the first line out of Belloq's mouth in Raiders involves "friendship"?

"Dr. Jones... You choose the wrong friends. This time it will cost you."

Great stuff, Paden. :)

[Abe Vayoda]

I'd say this thread deserves to be saved somewhere on the Raider.net
This is good, thought provoking information that future visitors should have the chance to read.

Very good work guys,

Nic

[IndyBuff]

In the spirit of playing with the empty canvas, I had an idea while contemplating some of the things that had already been considered thus far. Is it possible that, early in the evolution of both of their careers, Belloq and Jones were friends? Could they have cooperated on an expedition during the initial phases of their archaeological pursuits? Could Belloq have been one of the formative influences that introduced Jones to the shadow side of archaeology, or made him aware of its existence? Nothing creates animosity more effectively than a friendship broken by betrayal. Could Belloq have deceived Jones during a joint venture in order to steal a prize for himself? Given the depth of animosity between the two, I could see a former friendly association being plausible.

You're not alone Paden, as I have often entertained this thought myself, although it dealt with Forrestal instead (which I'll get to in a minute). Dispite the apparent rivalry between them there also seems to be a small amount of respect, probably mostly due to the talents that each of them have acquired. Again, this is something that's never brought up in the films or books, so we can only speculate here.

Indy's relationship with Belloq could be similar to that of Forrestal, another character that we know little about. Indy obviously recognized this man's talents and was aware of what he could do, so I suppose that it's possible that they once worked together or were at least aware of what the other was doing.

This is quite fun, simply because we can use our imaginations and come up with our own theories. That's one of the reason why the Indy films appeal so much to me.:)

[roundshort]

How are these people Mercenaries? I thought, and I am sure some n will correct me, a mercenaries was a solider for hire.

[Belloche]

Could someone settle a bet for me and tell me where Belloq comes from? My colleague says France but I've got a feeling that he is from Belgium or elsewhere.....Any suggestions?

[Doc Savage]

How are these people Mercenaries? I thought, and I am sure some n will correct me, a mercenaries was a solider for hire.
...or any occupation where the parameters of allegiance are defined by the paycheck. Kinda like my two-year-old...whoever has the bubblegum is her favorite parent.

[Junior Jones]

Paden, let me add fuel to your thoughts on the history between Belloq and Indy:

As a fan of the Young Indiana Jones Chronicles I came upon an online document about ten years ago written by a low-level assistant at Lucasfilm. He listed out some of the potential story ideas that had been tossed around for the third season of Chronicles. Two of them in particular mentioned Young Rene Belloq, adventuring with Indy in Honduras in 1920 and Brazil in 1921. The details were sketchy, but I got the impression they were classmates/colleagues.

[Paden]

What an interesting piece of information. Many thanks for passing it along. It's a shame that those episodes never made it to film, it would have been interesting to watch the interplay between a younger Jones and Belloq and hopefully see some of the seeds of their future antagonism sown. The more I've considered the idea over the weekend, the more sense it seems to make. Indy's mention of Forrestal brought to mind what I infer as an important distincition. As I've mentioned before, Jones' dialogue regarding Forrestal at the opening of Raiders implies that, although the men were competitors, Jones had a certain respect for Forrestal. There are anecdotes throughout the history of warfare where opposing generals expressed admiration for each others' prowess, and Jones' view of Forrestal seems to fall within this same category. In other words, beyond competition, there's no overt hostility.

Jones' feelings toward Belloq are entirely different. Jones never says anything remotely positive about Belloq or his talents, generally expressing disdain for his rival. In my mind, the animosity runs deeper than the frustration one feels toward a tenacious opponent that one has crossed swords with (and, on occasion, lost to). It's intensely personal, which implies, at least in my view, a past association that went sour. Nice to know that someone over at Lucasfilm had a simlilar idea. :)

[roundshort]

What an interesting piece of information. Many thanks for passing it along. It's a shame that those episodes never made it to film, it would have been interesting to watch the interplay between a younger Jones and Belloq and hopefully see some of the seeds of their future antagonism sown. The more I've considered the idea over the weekend, the more sense it seems to make. Indy's mention of Forrestal brought to mind what I infer as an important distincition. As I've mentioned before, Jones' dialogue regarding Forrestal at the opening of Raiders implies that, although the men were competitors, Jones had a certain respect for Forrestal. There are anecdotes throughout the history of warfare where opposing generals expressed admiration for each others' prowess, and Jones' view of Forrestal seems to fall within this same category. In other words, beyond competition, there's no overt hostility.

Jones' feelings toward Belloq are entirely different. Jones never says anything remotely positive about Belloq or his talents, generally expressing disdain for his rival. In my mind, the animosity runs deeper than the frustration one feels toward a tenacious opponent that one has crossed swords with (and, on occasion, lost to). It's intensely personal, which implies, at least in my view, a past association that went sour. Nice to know that someone over at Lucasfilm had a simlilar idea. :)


Maybe it was a BrokeBack Mt. thing gone bad, this is where Nads McCoy enters the picture (If you are a fan of Temple of John's fan fiction you know about Nads!)

[Paden]

Ladies and gentlemen, with the obligatory, out of left field reference to Brokeback Mountain...roundshort. *Strained applause* ;)

[Joe Brody]

Gotta say, for the same reason that I don't like Abner, Henry Senior and Marcus Brody all knowing each other, I don't like the youthful association. I want the world to be a bigger place. I can see competiting over different corners of a dig . . . like (shudder) The Mummy but not ex-childhood chums.

[Someone shoot me for giving The Mummy props in comparison to the Raiders franchise.]

[roundshort]

I like the Mummy . . .

[roundshort]

Ladies and gentlemen, with the obligatory, out of left field reference to Brokeback Mountain...roundshort. *Strained applause* ;)

Thanks I work hard at my snide remarks, I love it when people can relate!

[Joe Brody]

I like the Mummy . . .

What exactly? [Beyond Rachel Weiz (sp?)]

[phatr32]

i too liked the mummy.

i liked everything about it.

[Paden]

*Stares in abject horror at the sudden takeover of the conversation by The Mummy* ;)

Joe, do you prefer the idea that the hostilies developed during the professional rivalry because it enables each character to develop independently, rather than being the product of the influences of others? Or is there another reason? Just curious.

[Deadlock]

Gotta say, for the same reason that I don't like Abner, Henry Senior and Marcus Brody all knowing each other, I don't like the youthful association. I want the world to be a bigger place. I can see competiting over different corners of a dig . . . like (shudder) The Mummy but not ex-childhood chums.

Well, from the films, Marcus is the lynch pin. He knew Henry and he knew Abner ("Rubbish. Ravenwood's no Nazi.") I'm not saying that denotes a need for a "youthful association". Also, just to throw another log on the "Marcus knows everybody fire"... when Indy returns from Peru with his excuses for not bringing back the idol, Marcus casually guesses "Belloq?" with zero explanation from Indy.

Regarding Henry Sr: I don't think he was a member of the club this thread is about. Indy says to Marcus in Last Crusade, "He's an academic. A bookworm. He's not a field man."

If anything, isn't this thread about how small the shady world of archaeology is (as created by the movies)?

[Joe Brody]

Joe, do you prefer the idea that the hostilies developed during the professional rivalry because it enables each character to develop independently, rather than being the product of the influences of others? Or is there another reason? Just curious.

Right, as you know I'm hung up on wealth and for me Belloq would be a pet study in true 'old school' Continental wealth, so Belloq's background would be as different as possible from Indy's. Rich family, Private School, educated at some elite German (yup, I said 'German') University. . . .

Well, from the films, Marcus is the lynch pin. He knew Henry and he knew Abner ("Rubbish. Ravenwood's no Nazi.")

I'd submit that Marcus could confidentally utter that line if he knew Abner by reputation alone. Example: "Rubbish. Bill Clinton's no Nazi."

Also, just to throw another log on the "Marcus knows everybody fire"... when Indy returns from Peru with his excuses for not bringing back the idol, Marcus casually guesses "Belloq?" with zero explanation from Indy.

What if Indy was a true hard luck case and for years he's used the Belloq excuse. Say Indy would go and Museum funded trips and drank his funds away and came back with this ready made excuse.

If anything, isn't this thread about how small the shady world of archaeology is (as created by the movies)?

That's exactly right. I'm just giving a counter-argument. One problem with the movie realities is that they tend to get uncomfortably small. Everyone has a connection to everyone else. When the hero is a global adventurer, I like a little space between my characters. As it is, we're stuck with LC that made everything a lot smaller than it was (namely Marcus and Henry Sr. being college buddies or whatever it is they were).

[Paden]

If we exclude a childhood or collegiate association between Jones and Belloq, couldn't they still have had a professional association that was initially cooperative? Thinking about the idea from the standpoint of wealth, I can see reasoning both for and against it. If Jones and Belloq were paired together on an expedition, and presuming that Belloq was especially mindful of the differences in class, I could see that as being foundational to their ultimate animosity, with Belloq treating Jones as a lesser person, or even justifying excluding him from portions of their venture, or stealing from him, by virtue of his "lesser breeding". Of course, one could argue that Belloq would never agree to work with such a "blue collar" colleague in the first place. Belloq does seem to be willing to rub shoulders with undesireables to achieve his ends, but in fairness, Raiders never shows or mentions him cooperating with a fellow archaeologist.

[roundshort]

I, like Joe, hate to think they all knew each other, or even yet were 'friends." In any occupation where there are few competitors, you will know each other my professional reputation, and have an inordinate disdain for each other.

I am not even one that likes the idea that Fedora was Abner. A little much.

[Joe Brody]

If Jones and Belloq were paired together on an expedition, and presuming that Belloq was especially mindful of the differences in class, I could see that as being foundational to their ultimate animosity, with Belloq treating Jones as a lesser person, or even justifying excluding him from portions of their venture, or stealing from him, by virtue of his "lesser breeding".

My only problem with this is that if they were on a dig together, my assumption is that the whole project would have been funded by once source. So unless you want to make the young Belloq pompously grandiose (sp?), both Indy and Belloq would eat the same food, sleep in the same type tent, etc. In other words, it be tough to really show the difference in the way that was attempted in Raiders, with Belloq's well-appointed tent. One alternative would be to have Belloq 'roughing it' along with Indy and whining the whole time.

[Deadlock]

My only problem with this is that if they were on a dig together, my assumption is that the whole project would have been funded by once source.

"You may be more right than you know..."

Joe, I think you're going to enjoy this. :)

Wikipedia Article "James Henry Breasted" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Henry_Breasted):
He became an instructor at the University of Chicago in 1894 and was appointed Professor of Egyptology and Oriental History at in 1905 (the first such chair in the United States).

...

In 1919, funding was obtained from John D. Rockefeller for the Oriental Institute of Chicago, under whose auspices Breasted headed the University’s first archaeological survey of Egypt.

And isn't this interesting... this University of Chicago professor was the first American to get a PhD in Egyptology (1894, from the University of Berlin).

More on Breasted from the University of Chicago (http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/e/spcl/centcat/fac/facch10_01.html):

James Henry Breasted was one of the most widely known members of the University of Chicago faculty, a popularizer and textbook writer as well as America's first teacher of Egyptology. His field of work also captured the attention of religious-minded philanthropists like John D. Rockefeller, Jr., who were intent upon learning more about the ancient Near East. Working when serious professional archaeology was in its infancy and unconstrained by many governmental restrictions, Breasted's discoveries and purchases of artifacts helped shape the American image of past civilizations. His travels in the Near East evoked romantic images of Arab sheiks, ancient lost cities, tribal warfare, and buried treasure of the sort discovered at the tomb of Tutankhamun. In the years before oil irrevocably changed Western perceptions of the ancient Fertile Crescent, few adventures stimulated popular expectations more than Breasted's archaeological explorations.

In fact, the University itself has even suggested (http://magazine.uchicago.edu/9812/html/enquirer1.htm) that Ravenwood was patterned after Breasted.

Here's another interesting article (http://www.umich.edu/~kelseydb/Exhibits/DangerousArchaeology/PartOne.html#Archaeology)... notice how swashbuckling "archaeology" and British can go hand-in-hand (in the person of Sir Richard Francis Burton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Francis_Burton))? A possible mentor for Marcus?)

[Joe Brody]

Joe, I think you're going to enjoy this. :)

And indeed I did.

True, say what you will about the Rosetta (sp?) stone, but [half-jokingly] it's always been my understanding that the Germans did the first serious work on Egypt. And I think it would be appropriate for Ravenwood to have studied there himself.

And I totally agree that Burton would have been to Brody's generation, what TE Lawrence was to Indy's generation. So that's a connection that I would like to see fleshed out. Someday, I hope, Burton will get his due from Hollywood.

[Paden]

Out of curiosity, has any one read the bio of Belloq (http://www.indianajones.com/marshall/character/belloq/index.html) posted at the official site? It does state that Jones and Belloq met when both were studying at the Sorbonne, and seems to indicate that their association there, and afterward, was consistently hostile. Interesting stuff.

[Joe Brody]

Out of curiosity, has any one read the bio of Belloq (http://www.indianajones.com/marshall/character/belloq/index.html) posted at the official site? It does state that Jones and Belloq met when both were studying at the Sorbonne, and seems to indicate that their association there, and afterward, was consistently hostile. Interesting stuff.

I've read 'em. I agree with some and disagree with other points relating to the backstory. I think a critique thread is long overdue. I think Belloq studying at the Sorbonne is too simplistic -- I think with his arrogance it'd be more interesting if he studied at one of the great German Universities (who for some reason I think have an older and more respected association with archaeology). Belloq would have been the arrogant 'other' who had to be better than his German peers.

[Paden]

The idea of Belloq attending a German university is a compelling one and it bolsters the confidence we observe from the character when interacting with the Nazis in Raiders.
I agree with some and disagree with other points relating to the backstory. I think a critique thread is long overdue.
Any chance of you starting up such a thread? (hint, hint) ;)

[Joe Brody]

Any chance of you starting up such a thread? (hint, hint) ;)

I'll try to get one up this weekend.

And for Dietrich knowing Belloq and Dietrich bring in Belloq? Come on.

[Paden]

And for Dietrich knowing Belloq and Dietrich bring in Belloq? Come on.
Oh, no. I didn't mean to imply that there was any prior relationship between Belloq and Dietrich. I agree that such an association stretches the bounds of credibility past the breaking point. I meant to indicate that Belloq attending a German university with his arrogance intact would help further explain the fact that he seems to be completely unintimidated by his Nazi employers in Raiders.

[Joe Brody]

Oh, no. I didn't mean to imply that there was any prior relationship between Belloq and Dietrich.

I know you didn't. Sorry but I was writing in a hurry. The Belloq bio on the official site says that Dietrich somehow came to know Dietrich in his wonderings. That's what I was saying 'Come on' to.

That's just wrong on so many levels. A German Army officer back in the '20's & '30's wouldn't have had much of chance to be mixing with academics -- especially one educated in Paris. Plus, as I've observed elsewhere, Dietrich was a buffoon. If he had to hire a digger, he would've hired the Swordsman's brother.

[Paden]

Somewhere along the meandering path of his unscrupulous career, he met a Wehrmacht officer named Dietrich, who would come to hire him years later in a most momentous assignment.
<small>Wow, in the midst of my search for info on an early association between Belloq and Jones I shot right past this. So much for my reading comprehension skills.</small>

I know this is part of Belloq's official bio, but I have to agree that it's pretty far off the mark. Bluntly, it also strikes me as an unnecessary contrivance. I would think that Belloq's mercenary reputation would be sufficient reason for the Nazi regime to seek his services. A "reference" from Dietrich wouldn't be needed.

My memory might be faulty, but I don't recall anything in Raiders that hints at the two having known one another previously. Was there anything in an earlier draft that alluded to this idea?