Clues to Elsa being a baddie

[Violet Indy]

I was watching LC the other day and I realised that there were clues that Elsa was a baddie way before she betrays Indy in the Castle Brunwald. Firstly, she has no theme unlike Marion and Willie. Secondly, her Aryan looks and Austrian accent. Thirdly, there was no love theme during the love scene. Anything else I didn't notice? Oh and it could be read that Elsa going between the ships, could have been an attempt to kill Indy, however her willing to sacrifice herself for the Nazis to get the grail isn't convincing and would be reading too deeply into the action/reaction.

[IndyBuff]

Those are some interesting observations you have there. You could also think about Donovan's quote: "Don't trust anybody." Obviously there was no way to imagine that Elsa was with the Nazis but it's a pretty deceiving statement nonetheless.

That's one of the things that makes LC so exciting, at least for me. You're never sure who you can trust or who is telling the truth. It keeps the viewer, as well as Indy, on their toes the entire time.:whip:

[Violet Indy]

"Don't trust anybody"- Donovan would have done some research on Indy, especially considering his past exploits against the Nazis (the Ark for example). Donovan might have been doing reverse psychology on Indy. Indy is like Bond: throw in a gorgeous and smart woman and he's as good as dead.

[IndyBuff]

Donovan's plan was certainly elaborate but I think he really underestimated Indy and his father. He no doubt knew how skilled and talented Indy was but I don't think he counted on Indy being so determined. It's sort of the same thing we saw in ROTLA.

"Your persistance surprises even me.";)

[Violet Indy]

Agreed. Indy's determination is inspirational. You'd think though if Donovan did some background on Indy, he wouldn't have underestimated him. I suppose it's the way that all adventure serials go though.

[IndyBuff]

Indy's determination is inspirational.

Definately. That's one of the elements that I love about the character. No matter what he's up against he always manages to keep fighting and working until he gets what he wants. It's a big feature not only in LC but in all of the films, books, games, etc.:whip:

[IAdventurer01]

Donovan's plan was certainly elaborate but I think he really underestimated Indy and his father.

Duh. He lost didn't he? ;)


The no musical theme is a nice catch. I had never really thought of it, but it really could be seen as a clue in.

[whipem]

I just thought I'd mention this, but "Aryan" (at least the early-20th century idea of it) does not exactly necessitate blonde hair and blue eyes, although that was certainly an option. Feel free to correct me as I am not an expert on the subject of Hitler's beliefs on Aryanism.

[Ray Delark]

I also don't detect any real warmth from Elsa. There was something phoney about her from the start. Further, trust will probably always be an issue in Indy adventures.

[Edward The Head]

Agreed. Indy's determination is inspirational. You'd think though if Donovan did some background on Indy, he wouldn't have underestimated him. I suppose it's the way that all adventure serials go though.

What do you check up on though? You can't include Raiders because that would have been hushed up, I'm sure not a whole lot would have been said about Temple either, at least I would imagine that as who would know and who would you tell? I was under the impression that he used Indy mostly because of his father and some of his minor adventures. I would say Donovan used Indy because he thought he was only a teacher more then anything.

[Violet Indy]

But, surely there would have been controversy surrounding Indy. If you remember from the feast in ToD, the Prime Minister mentions a couple of adventures, such as the Sultan of Madagascar who threated to cut off something valuable of Indy's if he ever returned to the country.

[indyt]

Its nice to see some real Indy discussion going on here. I agree about Indys determination. That is one of his traits that make him a hero.:whip:

[Violet Indy]

Well, I did spark this conversation. I do deserve some credit....:p

[qafir]

Violet - that was an insightful observation (clues to being a baddie).

I think Donovan would have been very aware of Indy's reputation and that determination "that makes him a hero." He would have heard the stories and known that if anyone would take on the job and see it through to the end, it would be Indy. But the nazis are idiots in the Indy trilogy. They always overestimate their own cunning. So it's not surprising that D's attempts to manipulate the adventuer would be foiled. It's part of the Brave American beating Incompetent Evil ethos.

[Violet Indy]

True. This ethos is basis of the serials that the trilogy is in fact, dedicated to. If this ethos didn't exist, then trilogy wouldn't be the tribute it is.

[Gustav]

I first started to notice something a little strange with Elsa's behaviour when she was at that Nazi book-burning. That was pretty suspicious.

[indyt]

Well, I did spark this conversation. I do deserve some credit....:p


I agree Violet! You get the credit.;)

[Violet Indy]

I first started to notice something a little strange with Elsa's behaviour when she was at that Nazi book-burning. That was pretty suspicious.

Ah yes... According to the novel, Elsa was struggling within herself about Indy. Before she sees him, she thinks that he is dead and is feeling guilty but at the same she thinks that if he is dead, then she won't feel obligated to him. So in the novel, it is implied that Elsa had genuine feelings for Indy, especially after they made love in Venice, so to an extent she is made to be a sympathic villian.

[HovitosKing]

Anything else I didn't notice?

Yes, her initial refusal to accept Indy's stolen flower at the Venice pier. Tasteless, crass, tactless, gauche, and utterly daft. Very telling.

[Violet Indy]

Oh, yeah that's right. Thanks, Hovitosking!

[Twilightpro101]

Ah yes... According to the novel, Elsa was struggling within herself about Indy. Before she sees him, she thinks that he is dead and is feeling guilty but at the same she thinks that if he is dead, then she won't feel obligated to him. So in the novel, it is implied that Elsa had genuine feelings for Indy, especially after they made love in Venice, so to an extent she is made to be a sympathic villian.

I've always loved the novel for going into that regard. It added so more depth to Elsa and her relationship to Indy. Something I felt worked really well, despite the two being on opposite sides. I could easily see her wishing to be with again, despite what she did to him and his father. And let's not forget her...well...death.

[Moedred]

If you really know your showtunes, the music in Elsa's room is a tipoff:

"You're a sweet little headache
Full of quaint little schemes
But when I should forget you
I let you disturb my dreams
I thought I could hold my own with you
But you've got me all perplexed
For here am I alone with you
What are you going to do next?"

[TennesseBuck]

Yeah, that is the only scene that doesn't work - it makes it seem like Indiana is not with it or somewhat naive. How can people ransack the room without Elsa noticing, despite the loud music in the bathroom?!? Indiana is a lot smarter than that and probably should have not trusted her all that much from the beginning...after all, it's not like it is his first adventure.

Indiana Jones and the Web of Gold
http://www.geocities.com/faustus_08520/webofgold.html