The Review thread

michael

Well-known member
He DOES save Helena though. She was hanging from the plane about to fall to her death. He grabbed a parachute and grabbed her and brought her down to land safely.

Imagine how livid the online neckbeards would have been seeing Indy as a frail old man holding on for dear life while Helena saves him. Can’t imagine it would have gone over well with that crowd.

Sure what we got is not as badass as all of that, but I would take Indy’s dialog with Voller and the realization of where he was and where he was going and some of those (honestly already) iconic lines (Your calculations are WRONG, IDK where we are going but it sure as hell ain’t 1939! 214 BC you got the wrong war!”) than him in the lower decks of the plane crawling around on all fours through tight spaces while Helena gets the good parts.


Let’s not forget Raiders ended with Indy being tied up and literally just watching (and closing his eyes). Indy did WAY more in the climax of Dial than Raiders.

you're not wrong on all accounts.

but what makes that ending in Raiders fine to most people, even if he is just tied up, is that we just watched Indy do basically everything else in the movie.

For the record, I have no problem with what Indy did and didn't do in Dial. I thought the shooting at the tomb was classic Indy taking charge.
 

FordFan

Well-known member
Let’s not forget Raiders ended with Indy being tied up and literally just watching (and closing his eyes). Indy did WAY more in the climax of Dial than Raiders.
No, he did not.

You're including the plane sequence as the ending of DOD. Raiders has the truck chase, the submarine, and taking the Nazis by surprise with a bazooka, before he has to watch the Nazis open up the ark. One passive moment. Also.. Indy did not come back to the states unconscious in Raiders.

Even if we're grading these movies through the MyFitnessPal lens, Indy walks down some stairs at the end of Raiders. He literally wakes up at the end of DOD and shuffles into a kitchen.
 

T06J00

Well-known member
As someone who really likes the film I do get where you’re coming from. We see Indy start to become himself again through the New York chase and then in the auction and tuk tuk chase - but I do think we could have seen a proper “Indy is back!” type moment.
 

Randy_Flagg

Well-known member
As someone who really likes the film I do get where you’re coming from. We see Indy start to become himself again through the New York chase and then in the auction and tuk tuk chase - but I do think we could have seen a proper “Indy is back!” type moment.
I think the his attifude when he's in the past, unfortunately, undoes a lot of the progress we saw him make. He definitely takes strides towards coming back throughout the film, but then when he decides he'd rather just die in the past, it all kind of unravels.

I guess a more positive way to look at it is to say his actions throughout the rest of the film were his comeback, but he didn't really see it himself, and that's why he wanted to give up in the end. Helena, on the other hand, saw everything he did and knew that he was back, even if Indy himself didn't know it. I still think it would have been more impactful if Indy himself realized it, though.
 

michael

Well-known member
I think the his attifude when he's in the past, unfortunately, undoes a lot of the progress we saw him make. He definitely takes strides towards coming back throughout the film, but then when he decides he'd rather just die in the past, it all kind of unravels.

and this is the problem and why he's punched. if Indy and Helena just decide to go back all willy nilly, there's no surprise or drama with Marion. I'm not sure how you end the film with Marion in it if they decide to go back on their own accord.

The punch works well in that context, but it's like saying a tomato works well on a tuna sandwich, but unfortunately i don't even like tuna sandwiches to begin with. Horribly analogy, but work with me.

If he randomly talks about wanting to go back to the future to see Marion, we'd be like, why does he all of a sudden care?

The film made it's bed with Marion as a surprise, to some they liked it, to me i didn't, because it wasn't earned on screen.
 

FordFan

Well-known member
I like the idea of Indy contemplating staying in the past. It's like when he almost is overcome by greed in wanting the grail, before coming to his senses. But it should have been Indy who decided to go back. Skip the punch, skip the acclimating to his apartment. Have him show up on Marion's door.
 

British Raider

Well-known member
I’m not trying to change anyone’s minds on the ending so don’t take this as an attempt to, but the different perspectives got me thinking a lot on this movie.

Excuse the length but there is several things I’d like to cover: the fact Marion’s presence is felt throughout the movie, the dangers of assuming empathy from the audience, and the importance of Helena’s growth and how much it made us care.

For the Marion appearance to work we had to have felt, like Indy, that we have lost something too. It doesn’t need to be Indy’s motivation to get back to Marion (it can’t because his whole thing is avoidance) so the motivation has to be Helena’s, who comes to it by her development in the movie, a result of Indy’s influence on her. But also the audience’s motivation to see Marion as well. To see a bad version of this look no further than Captain America Civil War where they did no character development for Bucky Barnes, who is the source of the conflict between Cap and Iron Man, and a conflict that is undermined by Cap giving a speech that he is there for Iron Man if he just gives him a call. Like what, the conflict will be resolved that easy? Except in Dial we get the whole development with Helena that leads to letting Indy and the audience off the hook. It assumes empathy because we know Indy and Marion’s relationship. The work has already been done prior. But if you don’t care for Marion, you probably don’t also care for her appearing at the end. We have to feel her loss in the movie. And where this movie positions itself as a curtain closer, it operates a little less standalone than some of the other movies, as its in constant dialogue with them on more than one level, so assumes a lot of familiarity. Which can be a problem.

On first viewing we know that Marion and Indy’s relationship is in question because of the divorce papers. Indy covers her photo up on the fridge. He’s drawn to the bottle just like he was in Raiders after her assumed death. Later, Sallah tells him to call Marion but Indy says she doesn’t want to talk to him. We already know that one of his problems is he doesn’t just run from boulders but also from responsibility and emotional problems. And we get this suggestion he’s not wanting to call Marion or look at her photo because he would rather avoid than confront. We don’t know what Sallah knows so we might even take Indy’s word that she doesn’t want to talk to him. But like the whip and jacket he stuffed under his bed, so has he done the same with his troubles. Tellingly Sallah has to retrieve his iconic outfit. This is not the first instance that without the people around him he’d be lost. “I like to be alone,” might by his first words of the movie but it wasn’t true then and it isn’t true now.

We then find out in a flashback that the relationship between Indy and Basil grew tense, and we can see in the embodiment of Helena that Indy hasn’t lived up to his title of Godfather or friend to Basil. Again, avoiding rather than confronting. Helena has become a sort of shadow of his younger self, like we’ve seen before in Elsa, what he might have been had he sought only for his own gain. Except here we return to the Last Crusade territory of valuing family as a moral choice, only Helena has to choose, whose actions later are reactions to Indy being threatened and kidnapped. She like Indy before, becomes motivated by family, and not fortune and glory. Personal relationships become a source of meaning and morality, just as we saw in the Last Crusade and KotCS. In a way, Indy having developed in TLC is what he can impart to her.

As a side note, KotCS abstracts the supporting characters like the returning Marion, their purpose is mostly just to move the plot forward but not really encouraging any adaption or development on the part of Indy. Dial corrects this in a big way.

The brutal killing of Ronaldo is important because it leads to Indy scolding her after their escape, a moment that makes her take on the value of other people’s lives. We start to see her facade begin to crumble.

All the while Marion remains a presence, if not a physical one. We learn from Indy on the boat that he was incapable of consoling Marion. This is the biggest insight to what we can deduce about their relationship. She left him because he wasn’t capable of being emotionally open to her. And this is backed up by the many suggestions we get by his character, that he pushes away rather than confronts. We might not think about it in the moment, but Sallah’s question to Indy about giving her a call might just be the very thing he needs to do, but is incapable of doing. It would seem the biggest obstacle is himself.

When Helena punches Indy (in a deliberate echo to the one Marion gave him in Raiders) and brings him back to 1969, there is a brief moment where Indy still asks who he is back for. “For who?” You can see this pains Helena, and doubt is communicated through her expression. Indy might not still see that he has value, but it’s about to be put to the test. For as a consequence of all that he did for Helena she is in turn rewarding him with an opportunity he couldn’t do for himself. She called Marion.

Marion enters and her question, “Are you back, Indy?” is filled with doubt. Is he back? Can he be emotionally open to her? And the answer finally is yes.

So here we reach the crux. A lot of this hinges on how much we felt Marion’s loss in the story, and how much we wanted them to get back together. The movie assumes empathy because those characters and the meaning has already been established prior. So it delivers the audience to the place it assumes we want to be with them consoling but the character work with Helena had to have worked, and the audience had to have got on board. I think the decision for the prologue, to remind us of the past as well as work as a table setter, is just as much a kind of re-establishing. It’s a movie that is in dialogue with the audience’s history with this franchise as well as the characters within it. Ultimately, the strength and weakness of the movie are entwined. It both does the real work (integrates Helena’s growth, Indy overcoming his inability to confront emotions, mortality, finding purpose in a changing world, change and loss into theme) but also assumes a certain amount of empathy from the audience, and there are dangers to that.
 

FordFan

Well-known member
If Indy reaching out could be interpreted to be that grand a gesture, imagine the impact of him doing it himself.

Marion asks, "Are you back?" If he showed up at her door, instead of Helena playing "Parent Trap", Marion would know and we would know. No dialogue even necessary.
 

michael

Well-known member
But if you don’t care for Marion, you probably don’t also care for her appearing at the end. We have to feel her loss in the movie. And where this movie

Marion as a character, of course I care about her.

But I didn't care about her in this movie because

1.) she wasn't in it until the very very very very end.

and

2.) you didn't even know if she was gonna be in it until the end on first viewing.

That's a lot to assume of a first time viewer. Dial of Destiny is not this '2nd viewing you pick up on things' the way you make it out to be.

I think you're giving way too much credit to the story. Which is fine, I do and will do the same with Young Indy, for example.
 

British Raider

Well-known member
If Indy reaching out could be interpreted to be that grand a gesture, imagine the impact of him doing it himself.

Marion asks, "Are you back?" If he showed up at her door, instead of Helena playing "Parent Trap", Marion would know and we would know. No dialogue even necessary.
There is a version where Indy awakes in 1969, has the talk with Helena, and then calls Marion himself. The choice not to do that perhaps is where they want to arrive with Helena’s character, and this is what I mean by Helena’s arc has to have mostly worked (up for debate I guess), that she assists in the reunion because it show how she values family and relationships now.
I didn't care about her in this movie because

1.) she wasn't in it until the very very very very end.

and

2.) you didn't even know if she was gonna be in it until the end on first viewing.

That's a lot to assume of a first time viewer.
This for me gets to the crux of the story and if it does or doesn’t work for you. Because it assumes a lot from its audience.

I remember reading once about endings that even if in the moment the audience might not know what’s going to happen, when it does it should feel inevitable. Interestingly this reminds me of the Marion exchange in Raiders:

“I always knew some day you'd come walking back through my door. I never doubted that. Something made it inevitable.”

I didn’t find Marion’s appearance at the end was a twist. I think we all knew deep down she was going to be in this movie. It was discussed on this board. And I do think her presence is felt and alluded to throughout the movie, so that if she didn’t appear it would feel very weird indeed. But I think the movies problem is that this has to be felt and if you don't then of course the ending will feel as you describe. It’s assuming a lot and it makes it quite a different movie from the other 4.

It also makes me think about Legacy sequels and how so often the events that are alluded to between the movies would have been better dramatised within that story “the breakup, the death or loss of a son etc etc” I don’t know if I feel that way about DoD but it’s where mileage might vary.
 

michael

Well-known member
I do love your thoughts on this. I wish I saw it that way, and I don't mean that in a passive aggressive way.
 

Face_Melt

Well-known member
No, he did not.

You're including the plane sequence as the ending of DOD. Raiders has the truck chase, the submarine, and taking the Nazis by surprise with a bazooka, before he has to watch the Nazis open up the ark. One passive moment. Also.. Indy did not come back to the states unconscious in Raiders.

Even if we're grading these movies through the MyFitnessPal lens, Indy walks down some stairs at the end of Raiders. He literally wakes up at the end of DOD and shuffles into a kitchen.

Not to nitpick here but if you are lumping in the truck chase and sub them you have to lump in Indy finding archimedes tomb, all the puzzles he had to figure out, as well as the shootout he got into (again saving Helena’s life here).
 

FordFan

Well-known member
There is a version where Indy awakes in 1969, has the talk with Helena, and then calls Marion himself. The choice not to do that perhaps is where they want to arrive with Helena’s character, and this is what I mean by Helena’s arc has to have mostly worked (up for debate I guess), that she assists in the reunion because it show how she values family and relationships now.
But a phone call isn't theatrical. It's an everyday thing with zero drama. There's a reason they didn't do that, either.
I remember reading once about endings that even if in the moment the audience might not know what’s going to happen, when it does it should feel inevitable. Interestingly this reminds me of the Marion exchange in Raiders:

“I always knew some day you'd come walking back through my door. I never doubted that. Something made it inevitable.”
Imagine if Indy showed up at her door and it was a mirroring of this. She didn't even have to say the line, but if she did it would work. A perfect bookend to their relationship.
 

FordFan

Well-known member
Not to nitpick here but if you are lumping in the truck chase and sub them you have to lump in Indy finding archimedes tomb, all the puzzles he had to figure out, as well as the shootout he got into (again saving Helena’s life here).
It still isn't more than what he did in Raiders.
 

michael

Well-known member
There is a version where Indy awakes in 1969, has the talk with Helena, and then calls Marion himself. The choice not to do that perhaps is where they want to arrive with Helena’s character, and this is what I mean by Helena’s arc has to have mostly worked (up for debate I guess), that she assists in the reunion because it show how she values family and relationships now.

This for me gets to the crux of the story and if it does or doesn’t work for you. Because it assumes a lot from its audience.

I remember reading once about endings that even if in the moment the audience might not know what’s going to happen, when it does it should feel inevitable. Interestingly this reminds me of the Marion exchange in Raiders:

“I always knew some day you'd come walking back through my door. I never doubted that. Something made it inevitable.”

I didn’t find Marion’s appearance at the end was a twist. I think we all knew deep down she was going to be in this movie. It was discussed on this board. And I do think her presence is felt and alluded to throughout the movie, so that if she didn’t appear it would feel very weird indeed. But I think the movies problem is that this has to be felt and if you don't then of course the ending will feel as you describe. It’s assuming a lot and it makes it quite a different movie from the other 4.

It also makes me think about Legacy sequels and how so often the events that are alluded to between the movies would have been better dramatised within that story “the breakup, the death or loss of a son etc etc” I don’t know if I feel that way about DoD but it’s where mileage might vary.

And I'm not sure if an Indy film should be putting that on a first time viewer (whether hardcore fan first viewing or a complete newbie)

And let me be clear, you are absolutely not wrong in any of your opinions on this. I just wonder if the entire emotional arc/plot should actually be this subjective, for an Indiana Jones film.
 

British Raider

Well-known member
I just wonder if the entire emotional arc/plot should actually be this subjective, for an Indiana Jones film.
Yes this has been another of my thoughts. I think we can find precedent for a lot of the emotional arc/themes from the prior movies but Mangold’s approach is so different to Spielberg’s. He would likely never had it end in a tender consolation in a kitchen for example. And we know Marion was even on the adventure in his so we might not have got a character like Helena which the movie puts a lot of weight on I feel. I think the success of the movie is dependent on her in a way it might not be on other sidekicks? I don’t know. It’s the Marion of it all isn’t it?

I just find it fascinating how two people can watch the same movie and have different reactions. How does this happen? Is it what we as individuals bring to the movie? Or is it the movie itself? I guess ultimately it comes down to trying to figure out what the movies intention was to try and get at the functionality of it…

Anyway, I’ve given maybe way too much time and thought to this movie so I might have to take a break.
 

Face_Melt

Well-known member
It still isn't more than what he did in Raiders.

I still think it’s silly for franchises to always try to top the installments before it. Indy doesn’t need to do more in each film than the film prior.

And Indy had a higher kill count in Dial than Raiders anyway…
 
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