The Review thread

[FordFan]

I still think it’s silly for franchises to always try to top the installments before it. Indy doesn’t need to do more in each film than the film prior.

And Indy had a higher kill count in Dial than Raiders anyway…

You just contradicted yourself.

And I didn’t say he needs to, especially when he’s 81 years old in the newer installment. Just disagreeing with you that Indy does more in the ending of DOD than he does in Raiders.

In the last 45 minutes of DOD, Indy gets into a shootout, is shot, then dragged onto a plane, grabs Helena in a free fall, sits in amazement, and gets knocked out.

In the last 45 minutes of Raiders, he escapes from the Well of Souls, gets into a fight with the German mechanic, steals a horse, fights multiple Nazis in the truck chase, ducks more Nazis by boarding a submarine, fights two more Nazis, ambushes the villains with a bazooka, before being taken captive.

 

[Walecs]

The thing is... Spielberg already created the best possible ending to this franchise with Last Crusade. If other directors were going to take a crack at the series, it needed to happen before LC ended it in the best possible way. Mangold and even Spielberg himself couldn't improve upon what was already a perfect landing.

It never felt like an ending to the series, to me. It is a great ending shot, but the movie is not as conclusive as Dial is. Even the weddin at the end of Kingdom feels more like a "series finale", while Crusade doesn't.

 

[fedoraboy]

That's why I still think that if they could have restructured the ending so that Indy saves Helena, instead of the other way around, it would have worked so much better. Imagine seeing Indy ridng the motorcycle and climbing up into the plane, dropping nazis out the cargo door, etc. Then, when Marion asks him if he's really back, we would all be thinking, "Hell yeah! You should have seen what he did!"

This is a really interesting idea. And, actually, having Indy save the day AND THEN be tempted to stay in the past could have given that moment even more emotional weight.

And actually the beats of the film don’t change that much. Helena could simply be taken by Voller during the tomb shoot out (she doesn’t need to be shot) and Indy and Teddy then go to her rescue. I need to think through the ramifications, but actually this would then give Indy a decent end of act 2 set piece which is sort of what is missing for me. If they’d kept Hauke alive there could even be some sort of showdown between him and Indy on the plane. Maybe I’m missing something, but this plot change could really elevate the film, for me at least.

 

[Face_Melt]

This is a really interesting idea. And, actually, having Indy save the day AND THEN be tempted to stay in the past could have given that moment even more emotional weight.

And actually the beats of the film don’t change that much. Helena could simply be taken by Voller during the tomb shoot out (she doesn’t need to be shot) and Indy and Teddy then go to her rescue. I need to think through the ramifications, but actually this would then give Indy a decent end of act 2 set piece which is sort of what is missing for me. If they’d kept Hauke alive there could even be some sort of showdown between him and Indy on the plane. Maybe I’m missing something, but this plot change could really elevate the film, for me at least.

See when I watch an Indiana Jones scene, what stays with me is what is the more interesting parts of the scene. Not what is the most action oriented.

The best parts of the scene is Indy on the plane and his dialog with Voller. Slowly realizing what’s happening and his lines of:

“I don’t know where we are going Jergen but it sure as hell ain’t 1939!”

“Your calculations are WRONGG”

“214 BC you got the wrong war!”

The most interesting parts of the scene are not Helena crawling around on all fours in the bowels of the plane.

Same reason the most interesting parts of Shorty saving Indy in Temple of Doom are what’s going on with Indy, Willie and the Thugee ceremony. NOT Short round breaking his chains and running through the catacombs.


I would NOT want Helena to have the most interesting parts of the scene, and all the juicy dialog while Indy crawls around in the bowels of the plane, pulls a level and hangs onto the plane for dear life while Helena grabs a parachute and saves him. What we got was significantly better and far more “Indiana Jones ish” if you will.

 

[Forbidden Eye]

I would NOT want Helena to have the most interesting parts of the scene, and all the juicy dialog while Indy crawls around in the bowels of the plane, pulls a level and hangs onto the plane for dear life while Helena grabs a parachute and saves him. What we got was significantly better and far more “Indiana Jones ish” if you will.

This.

Also I can't think of a reason why Jurgen would take Helena alive and hold her hostage. Every instance my nitpicking brain would be like "Why doesn't he kill her like he's killed everyone else?"

With Indy he takes him alive and holds him captive for the reason Belloq states in Raiders "You and I are very much alike..."

 

[Face_Melt]

This.

Also I can't think of a reason why Jurgen would take Helena alive and hold her hostage. Every instance my nitpicking brain would be like "Why doesn't he kill her like he's killed everyone else?"

With Indy he takes him alive and holds him captive for the reason Belloq states in Raiders "You and I are very much alike..."

After her stunt with the dynamite yeah she would be killed. Good thing Indy saved her earlier in the shootout or she would have been a goner.

 

[Dr.Jonesy]

This.

Also I can't think of a reason why Jurgen would take Helena alive and hold her hostage. Every instance my nitpicking brain would be like "Why doesn't he kill her like he's killed everyone else?"

You could have Helena actually be a Jewish character.

And she tries to get the Dial back from him after the Tomb scene, he almost kills her but decides taking her back to 1939 Nazi Germany would be a far worse and more amusing fate for her.

 

[michael]

This.

Also I can't think of a reason why Jurgen would take Helena alive and hold her hostage. Every instance my nitpicking brain would be like "Why doesn't he kill her like he's killed everyone else?"

Voller is interesting in that way, I think he genuinely likes when people have a knowledge of history/the artifact.

Look at how he treats Klaber and Hauke. He didn't care about Hauke dying at all and he's basically disgusted with Klaber in the plane once they reach ancient Greece.

He had no respect for hired hands. Just used them.

It's why he was still so hesitant to shoot Indy before they jump out. The nerd simply doesn't have it in him to kill academics.

 

[Forbidden Eye]

You could have Helena actually be a Jewish character.

And she tries to get the Dial back from him after the Tomb scene, he almost kills her but decides taking her back to 1939 Nazi Germany would be a far worse and more amusing fate for her.

Unlike you to look for ways to improve Dial.

But also, the line that sticks out to me is "The world no longer cares about men like us." He also bonds with Indy due to their advancing years and ultimately both feeling out of place in the world by 1969.

 

[fedoraboy]

See when I watch an Indiana Jones scene, what stays with me is what is the more interesting parts of the scene. Not what is the most action oriented.

The best parts of the scene is Indy on the plane and his dialog with Voller. Slowly realizing what’s happening and his lines of:

“I don’t know where we are going Jergen but it sure as hell ain’t 1939!”

“Your calculations are WRONGG”

“214 BC you got the wrong war!”

The most interesting parts of the scene are not Helena crawling around on all fours in the bowels of the plane.

Same reason the most interesting parts of Shorty saving Indy in Temple of Doom are what’s going on with Indy, Willie and the Thugee ceremony. NOT Short round breaking his chains and running through the catacombs.


I would NOT want Helena to have the most interesting parts of the scene, and all the juicy dialog while Indy crawls around in the bowels of the plane, pulls a level and hangs onto the plane for dear life while Helena grabs a parachute and saves him. What we got was significantly better and far more “Indiana Jones ish” if you will.

Yes, I don't have a major issue with how the film is presented in its current form - and I agree, there are lots of lovely moments on the plane. What got me excited about Randy's idea, though, was that it neatly addresses my main grumble about the film- the lack of Indy-centred action at the end of Act 2. This is an Indiana jones film, I want Indy to be in the thick of the action, and seeing him motorcycling alongside a plane and dragging himself aboard - even at (especially at!) the age of 70 would be thrilling! You could still have his face off and dialogue with Voller once he's on the plane, indeed it could all be so much more urgent and dynamic if Indy is then apprehended mid-rescue. I'm not suggesting (and don't think Randy was suggesting) just a direct swap for Indy and Helena's roles - instead it would be a tweaking of the story to give Indy a bit more to do and make the film's resolution land in a more satisfying way.

Don't get me wrong, on balance I'm very happy with the film we have - but what Randy suggested was a really neat and clever way of giving us a bit more Indy action, giving the character more agency and still not losing all the things we love. I think it's a terrific idea.

 

[FordFan]

You could have Helena actually be a Jewish character.

And she tries to get the Dial back from him after the Tomb scene, he almost kills her but decides taking her back to 1939 Nazi Germany would be a far worse and more amusing fate for her.

Then that's two wounded characters he's dragging along.

Here's a question... why can't Helena have been a pilot and we skip the Teddy "learning to be a pilot" subplot? And then we don't have her riding a motorcycle in the middle of a hailstorm and jumping onto a plane mid-flight?

 

[fedoraboy]

Here's a question... why can't Helena have been a pilot and we skip the Teddy "learning to be a pilot" subplot? And then we don't have her riding a motorcycle in the middle of a hailstorm and jumping onto a plane mid-flight?

Errr, because it's a great moment (with a great score!) why would you want to lose it?

Randy Flagg has convinced me it would be better if it was Indy in this moment leaping onto the plane, but I'm glad SOMEONE got to do it!

 

[FordFan]

Errr, because it's a great moment (with a great score!) why would you want to lose it?

Randy Flagg has convinced me it would be better if it was Indy in this moment leaping onto the plane, but I'm glad SOMEONE got to do it!

I didn't think it was great at all. Just CG overload that adds to the runtime. And would be even more ridiculous with an 80-year-old performing it.

They could have had Indy being the one flying the plane (hey, he learned to land! ) and have Helena be the one taken hostage, but there's something more satisfying about Indy revealing to Voller and his goons that they f'd up. “I don't know where we're going, but it sure as hell ain't 1939!" is a great line.

 

[fedoraboy]

They could have had Indy being the one flying the plane (hey, he learned to land! ) and have Helena be the one taken hostage, but there's something more satisfying about Indy revealing to Voller and his goons that they f'd up. “I don't know where we're going, but it sure as hell ain't 1939!" is a great line.

As above, I think they could have Indy climbing aboard the plane and still kept his cool exchange with Voller.

And I think the Helena climbing aboard the airplane stuff looks great. I’m sure CGI is involved but it’s fairly grounded action for a film in this genre and it’s done really well. I find it odd you see this moment as excessive given some of the audacious set pieces in the other films which cross much more into the unbelievable.

 

[FordFan]

As above, I think they could have Indy climbing aboard the plane and still kept his cool exchange with Voller.

And I think the Helena climbing aboard the airplane stuff looks great. I’m sure CGI is involved but it’s fairly grounded action for a film in this genre and it’s done really well. I find it odd you see this moment as excessive given some of the audacious set pieces in the other films which cross much more into the unbelievable.

It's right up there with Mutt swinging with monkeys for me, but at least that set piece gave KOTCS some personality and had room to play out. In a movie that is 2 hours and 30+ minutes long, some stuff needed to go.

All we needed was to see the character sneaking onto the plane. If it was before the storm, it would still be a stretch but I'd accept it. But at night, in the middle of a storm, mid-flight is so far removed from the practical stunts the series was built on.

 

[Dr.Jonesy]

I would not have bought 70 year old Indy doing that climb.

 

[michael]

Here's a question... why can't Helena have been a pilot and we skip the Teddy "learning to be a pilot" subplot? And then we don't have her riding a motorcycle in the middle of a hailstorm and jumping onto a plane mid-flight?

They needed a second plane to get back and a way to get Indy off the plane that crashes.

Unless you're thinking Indy somehow gets off it by himself, but then maybe he's not injured.

Hmmm...

 

[FordFan]

They needed a second plane to get back and a way to get Indy off the plane that crashes.

Unless you're thinking Indy somehow gets off it by himself, but then maybe he's not injured.

Hmmm...

Indy could have parachuted himself... with Helena flying the other plane, landing it, and meeting him. He could still be injured and do everything else he does in the ending.

 

[fedoraboy]

All we needed was to see the character sneaking onto the plane. If it was before the storm, it would still be a stretch but I'd accept it. But at night, in the middle of a storm, mid-flight is so far removed from the practical stunts the series was built on.

It wasn’t mid flight - Helena climbed aboard before the plane took off. I’m pretty sure the jump from the bike to the wheel rig was done practically, albeit with some CGI embellishments. It’s a good stunt, not all that dissimilar to Indy’s leap from the horse to the tank in LC. It’s daring but not beyond the realm of possibility.

 

[FordFan]

It wasn’t mid flight - Helena climbed aboard before the plane took off. I’m pretty sure the jump from the bike to the wheel rig was done practically, albeit with some CGI embellishments. It’s a good stunt, not all that dissimilar to Indy’s leap from the horse to the tank in LC. It’s daring but not beyond the realm of possibility.

Except when you see Indy jump from the horse to the tank, you know someone did it. Versus, "I'm pretty sure it was done practically". There's so much CG enhancement, we don't know.