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-   -   Noahs Ark soon to be discovered? (http://raven.theraider.net/showthread.php?t=4600)

Indy87 05-30-2003 02:53 PM

I watched a History Channel Program about Noahs Ark and they said archeologists are negotaiting with the Turkish government to excavat Mt. Ararat

whats the state of negotaions now?

[Edited by Indy87 on 05-31-2003 at 01:48 pm]

VALIS 05-31-2003 01:11 AM

Are you sure it was Morocco? Mount Ararat is in Turkey near the borders with Iran and Armenia.
Also, both Turkey and Iraq claim to be home of the resting place of Noah's Ark.

bob 05-31-2003 04:01 AM

I personally do not believe that Noahs Ark ever has or ever will exist....however even taking the Biblical Story at face value:

1. It has been thousands of years since the flood events and the wood would have rotted away
2. Wouldnt the survivors of the flood have needed wood to start building again
3. Wood will rot over time, and even by some magical means the wood survived the boat would have collasped due to the lack of modern joining techniques the boat would have fallen apart especially if it was as big as it is supposed to be.
4. No one has managed to find it in thousands of years - someone would have noticed an enormous boat in the hills!

Indy87 05-31-2003 12:49 PM

CAnt it be frozen!!!

bob 05-31-2003 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Indy87
CAnt it be frozen!!!

There may be snow on Arrat but there would need to be icebergs to cover up a Boat that size!

Kill Cavalry 06-01-2003 09:50 AM

It's all a very complex thing, the Ark. It may have existed until this time, but being an Arabic nation Turkey did not allow people to climb the mountain for decades. I've been told this is because the Quaran places the Ark somewhere else. Two expeditions from this century produced pieces of wood they claim to be from the Ark. Tests showed these two seperately funded expeditions had produced the same kind of wood, of the same age. Carbon-14 dating supposedly disproved this, but the very creator of Carbon-14 said that in the conditions in which these pieces were found his system would be unreliable in dating.
It's an enigma. Do I think it exists? Hell, I don't know, but it's certainly something worth looking into.

VALIS 06-01-2003 12:27 PM

Mythology from cultures across the planet from each other talk of a great flood, which implies that there may have been a significant warming period thousands of years ago that was remembered by folklore.
If the wood was in a cold or dry place, or covered by sediment or other debris, then it could have been preserved. As to whether or not such a boat existed or still exists is something that will be hard to prove one way or another.

raider84 06-05-2003 04:12 AM

No i dont think the Ark will ever be found. After about 2,500 wood would rot. Even if it were metal i still think there might not be a trace it was there.I'm not saying i dont beleve in Noah's ark. It just i think it would be fary hard to find it.:rolleyes:

bob 06-06-2003 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by VALIS
Mythology from cultures across the planet from each other talk of a great flood, which implies that there may have been a significant warming period thousands of years ago that was remembered by folklore.
If the wood was in a cold or dry place, or covered by sediment or other debris, then it could have been preserved. As to whether or not such a boat existed or still exists is something that will be hard to prove one way or another.


Just because there are common myths about floods does not mean the Noahiac Flood occured in fact the hundreds of myths and legends detract credability from the idea of a single flood engulfing flood event.

Now the Ark is something that would be impossible to build anyway; wooden ships can only float upto a certain weight that is why we have iron ships now. The Ark would have sunk!; the idea that then this Ark could survive unfound and unseen on Arrat for 3000 years or so is one that is frankly ludicrious and relies more on faith than on sound scientific method.

If you want to believe in the Ark then that is fine with me...but dont expect to find it in the real world.

VALIS 06-06-2003 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bob
Just because there are common myths about floods does not mean the Noahiac Flood occured in fact the hundreds of myths and legends detract credability from the idea of a single flood engulfing flood event.

Now the Ark is something that would be impossible to build anyway; wooden ships can only float upto a certain weight that is why we have iron ships now. The Ark would have sunk!; [/b]

I fail to see how multiple cultures having a legendary flood story would detract from the possibility of there having been a period of significant flooding, which the geological record supports.
While the dimensions of the Ark in the Old Testament is not large enough to hold two of every animal, nor the food needed to feed them for forty days, it would be possible to float a wooden ship of those dimessions.

Aaron H 06-07-2003 03:58 PM

I want to drop a word in here, the story of the Flood is found in every major culture. From the Hebrews to the Aztecs to the Chinese, they all have a story about one man and his family (and animals) suriving a flood that wiped out all known life and eventually coming to rest on a mountain. Doesn't this say something? Surely there had to have been an event that inspired these "stories", remember that many of these peoples never met or had any sort of interaction.
bob, there is a lack of evidence to prove such an event happened, but there is an equal lack to prove that it didn't. Who knows maybe one day we will find an "Ark" or at least the proof that one did/did not exist. Until that day comes at least we can create theories.:)

[Edited by Aaron H on 06-07-2003 at 05:01 pm]

StarFire 06-14-2003 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by raider84
[b] After about 2,500 wood would rot.

Where did you get this number? In a frozen enviromnemt, the wood would be completely preserved. In a woodland environment, the number would only be a few hundred years at best. The stories (and I stress they are just that), say that that Ark rests above the thaw line, meaning very little deterioration would have occured since it's deposition. I'll dig into my arch notes, but I believe around 5000 years ago, sea levels were as much as 13 metres higher (global average) than today. I don't have any info on past sea-levels in the Ararat area: the levels would have to have been catastrophically higher than the global average to get it up to the 14,000+ ft level the stories say the Ark is at!

bob 06-15-2003 03:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by StarFire
[b]
Quote:

Originally posted by raider84
After about 2,500 wood would rot.


Where did you get this number? In a frozen enviromnemt, the wood would be completely preserved. In a woodland environment, the number would only be a few hundred years at best. The stories (and I stress they are just that), say that that Ark rests above the thaw line, meaning very little deterioration would have occured since it's deposition. I'll dig into my arch notes, but I believe around 5000 years ago, sea levels were as much as 13 metres higher (global average) than today. I don't have any info on past sea-levels in the Ararat area: the levels would have to have been catastrophically higher than the global average to get it up to the 14,000+ ft level the stories say the Ark is at!


I must admit that i dont think any of us can really prove whether Noahs ark would have rotted or no after thousands of years as we lack...erm precedent for a football pitch sized ship sitting on top of a mountain. If it was Frozen however it WOULD have broken up and you would probably need a whole Glacier to freeze that. However i dont think Arrat has an iceberg on top of it if i can remember the pictures ive seen of it!

Taking the story at face value i reckon the suvivors would have salvaged a lot of the wood of the Ark, nails etc
The ship would have soon broken up even if frozen probably leaving only trace remains of wood after thousands of years

Klaus Kerner 07-02-2003 01:28 AM

Here are some nice links to pages about Noah´s Ark sightinghs, expeditions, facts etc:

http://www.genesisfiles.com/interest.htm
http://www.space.com/scienceastronom..._010823-2.html
http://www.noahsark-naxuan.com/1.htm
http://www.hjp.ch/texte/Arche/Arche.htm (this is in german; with close-up pics of wood from the ark and pics of the arc)

So... according to those sites oah´s arc might have already been found!

westford 07-02-2003 04:48 AM

One possible origin for flood myths could be the creation of the Black Sea.

Research has shown that until around 6,000 years BP*, the Black Sea was a landlocked freshwater lake, with a level 140m below that of the Mediterranean. Today, there is a narrow channel connecting the Black Sea to the Aegean - around 6,000 BP, the natural barrier must have collapsed, allowing salt water to rush into the Black Sea basin, leading to displacement of the shoreline by an estimated 1 foot per day.

It has been suggested that this flood event was what prompted the migrations of the Linear Band Keramik (LBK) peoples across Europe during the Neolithic. If so, wouldn't they have carried on the tale of a great flood which caused them to leave their homeland?


* BP = 'before present', or prior to 1950 (generally used to express radiocarbon dates)

Indy H 07-03-2003 02:09 AM

Hey Bob,the ark was supposed to be covered in picth could'nt that have perserved it,anyhow you other guys,and Bob,don't be so narrow minded it's not in the indy spirit.

[Edited by Indy H on 07-03-2003 at 03:12 am]

Venture 07-03-2003 11:36 PM

The specs to which the ark was built (a 1:6 width-length ratio) are the same dimensions used by navies and commercial ship-builders today. And if you calculate the volume of the ark, it was more than sufficient to house two of each kind of land-roving species. Have you considered the percentage of species that are insects or water-dwellers? Archaeologists are finding today that the Bible is the most reliable archaeological handbook in existence, and have yet to disprove even one of its accounts. To the contrary, most have been borne out. A big boat and a big flood are well within the realms of possibilty and probability.

bob 07-04-2003 12:45 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Indy H
[b]Hey Bob,the ark was supposed to be covered in picth could'nt that have perserved it,anyhow you other guys,and Bob,don't be so narrow minded it's not in the indy spirit.

[Edited by bob on 07-04-2003 at 01:52 pm]

Pale Horse 07-08-2003 08:51 AM

I like you bob, I really do. I don't want this to come out the wrong way.

Do you believe in pangeia? If so how might you account for the separation if not for a flood? If you don't then I guess this might be a moot point.

bob 07-08-2003 10:46 AM

Ok the forum ate my previous post but i really dont want to get into this anymore why?

I really dont want to take on faith because then things get ugly, because with faith a lot is possible and then the hypotheticals come 'this could have occured' 'what if...'

Looking at it from a purely scientific viewpoint there is no evidence for Noah's Ark (the flood is an entirely different kettle o'fish that i dont want to get into); and the story takes place in the parts of the Bible that i would consider pure myth (but i dont want to get into a slanging match about the validity of the Bible)

Until there is evidence for the existance of Noah's Ark outside of the Bible the possibility of its existance will not convince me.

Venture 07-08-2003 01:04 PM

Fair enough.

Pilot 07-29-2003 07:04 AM

In 1999 and 2000 maritime explorer, Robert Ballard, found evidence in the Black Sea that it was a freshwater lake until it was flooded by the Mediterranean Sea about 7,000 years ago. It is his belief that this is the origin of the Noah story. Regarding the Bible and archeology, I recall that prior to 1900, scholars thought that the Hittites, as mentioned only in the Bible, never existed. Early in the 20th century, archeologists found the remains of the Hittite empire. I wouldn't be too hasty to dismiss Biblical stories, especially the ones that seem impossible. There is a great deal we don't know at this time.

Venture 07-29-2003 08:26 PM

We have a wise man among us, ladies and gentlemen. Pilot, I'm impressed. But as for the flood itself, strata in the earth relay more of a singular catastrophic event than millions of years of layering. If anyone's interested, I'll post some references and explanations.

Pale Horse 07-29-2003 10:42 PM

Is this the similar theroy concerning the petrafied trees found in the wake of Mt. St. Helens, after the explosion?

Venture 07-31-2003 09:13 AM

Very similar. It seems there is at least one tree that stands upright through several strata, appearing according to "old Earth" theories to have grown for millenia. The trees at Mt. St. Helens demonstrated how an earth-shattering (literally) catastrophe could deposit objects in similar fashion. This theory (singular catastrophe) also explains why several species appear before their supposed time in the geological strata, or appear with animals not from their supposed periods.


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