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-   -   Crusade or Skull? Which ends the franchise better? (http://raven.theraider.net/showthread.php?t=17117)

Benraianajones 10-17-2008 10:27 AM

Crusade or Skull? Which ends the franchise better?
 
This isn't a KOTCS bash fest first of all. I am simply interested in people's opinons on which they think makes the best ending to the franchise. Don't use answers like "Last Crusade, because KOTCS sucked" if you didn't like it - because that answer doesn't answer the quesion at hand.

In KOTCS Indy gets married - so he gets a wife and child, and gains sense and reason to his life again.

In Last Crusade, he gains his fathers acceptance, and essentially Indy and his dad pass up eternal life and ride off in to the sunset, embracing what they have - life.

Personally I think Last Crusade end the franchise better, and I think it is a shame KOTCS somehow couldn't have been before Crusade (marriage or not in KOTCS). I say that because I do like KOTCS, but found Last Crusade's moral of embracing the wonder and concept of life - and having given up the idea of eternal life - whislt others (Donovan, Elsa etc) lost their lives striving for it, much more meaningful. Of course also, marriage could not occur without life. So I tend to see Last Crusade to have a better sentimental value and more meaning for the end of the franchise, than the marriage in KOTCS - you can't get anything above the concept of life - it is the biggest thing - bigger than a wedding. I also thought the musical score of Last Crusade's fitted nicely in to the Indiana Jones theme tune nicley at the end and made a much more wholesome feeling to the end of the adventure/franchise.

What do you think? KOTCS as an ending, or Last Crusade? Remember this isn't a "Last Crusade, as I don't consider KOTCS to exist" topic. SImply which ending you think has greater, more sentimental interest to you, which you think rounds the franchise off the best.

Snakes 10-17-2008 10:37 AM

Although I really like Crystal Skull and I'm glad it was made, I definitely think the Last Crusade ends the series better.

The Man 10-17-2008 10:42 AM

Crusade, no hesitation. The dreary plot aside, his 'journey' in Skull only served to cheapen and detract from Indy's character. His autumn years were best left unsullied in the imagination of the audience.

Henry Jones III, indeed...:rolleyes:

Major West 10-17-2008 10:45 AM

Last Crusade was a perfect ending. But the sun came up the next day, and Indy had many more adventures and we got to see one more, and it still had quite a nice ending too.

Raider Indy 10-17-2008 10:46 AM

While I like the concept of Indy finally gaining a sense of family and security through all his hardships and anguish, the visual of Indy riding off into the sunset is too perfect a final image to be topped.

Benraianajones 10-17-2008 10:52 AM

Yes, though I am sure Indy didn't retire after his ride in to the sunset, you watch it and think "I wonder what he got up to next, what other mysteries he may uncover", and now you are tempted to think "He meets Irina Spalko and races her to Akator with the crystal skull, and he has a kid and marries Marion". I just think knowing what happens kind of taints the image and meaning of embracing life for what it is at the end. As I say, I do enjoy KOTCS - but I think it is a shame it couldn't have somehow happened before Crusade so it could tehcnically be the last movie still.

Personally when I watch KOTCS, I kind of forget it is even based 19 years or so after the originals, it somehow seems on a different timescale altogether, not really 19 years later. And somehow, in some cases, before them. Though I am not sure how my mind thinks it.

I wish in the 90s we could have had a Fate of Atlantis movie...with Harrison young as well, it could have been based before The Last Crusade, so we'd stil have that perfect ending with life embraced and the sunset.

StoneTriple 10-17-2008 10:54 AM

Kingdom is the ending of the franchise (so far).

It wouldn't matter how flawless an ending\story\etc Crusade had been - it's part three of four. All the denial & bashing in the world isn't going to change that. That's not directed at you Ben.

If you're going to discuss style or type of endings perhaps, then I'd definitely go with Kingdom - Indy finally gets the girl. Also, his taking his hat away from Mutt is a great way to show that he's still Indiana Jones - he's still in charge.

Benraianajones 10-17-2008 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StoneTriple
If you're going to discuss style or type of endings perhaps, then I'd definitely go with Kingdom - Indy finally gets the girl. Also, his taking his hat away from Mutt is a great way to show that he's still Indiana Jones - he's still in charge.


Oh you think KOTCS makes a better franchise ending? I see where you are coming from, he takes his hat away to show he is in charge and gets the girl - but, of course without the great wonder of life in the first place - he couldn't even have done that. That is why I tend to think Last Crusade's ending has more meaning to it. It was the last movie at the time and celebrated the big concept of life. In KOTCS is just kind of celebrates 2 people's marriage and a family getting together/Indy gaining sense of his personal life again. And again, I like KOTCS, and I think it is a shame it couldn't have somehow occured before Cruade.

I guess both end the franchise better than the elephant squirting them with water. :-) (Though I enjoyed it at the end of Doom).

Also, this doesn't influence my opinion why I think LC works better as a franchise ending, but LC was the last movie I watched with my dad before he died a few months ago. He didn't get to see KOTCS, but when I heard as I watched KOTCS, that Indy's dad had died, and heard the Last Crusade Holy Grail theme, it made me think of my dad and feel a bit sad (even with Henry's publicity shot!), like Indy and his dad on Last Crusade, the last "adventure" me and my dad had been on was LC, and neither Indy's dad or my dad were here to be involved with KOTCS. I think that the "Canyon of the Cresent Moon" music would have been better used to the pic of Indy's dad though (the music during when they hugged, after thinking Indy died.) I guess they thought the Holy Grail theme was more recognisible though and framed the concept of Indy and his dad's Last Crusade adventure better though.

Darth Vile 10-17-2008 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benraianajones
This isn't a KOTCS bash fest first of all. I am simply interested in people's opinons on which they think makes the best ending to the franchise. Don't use answers like "Last Crusade, because KOTCS sucked" if you didn't like it - because that answer doesn't answer the quesion at hand.

In KOTCS Indy gets married - so he gets a wife and child, and gains sense and reason to his life again.

In Last Crusade, he gains his fathers acceptance, and essentially Indy and his dad pass up eternal life and ride off in to the sunset, embracing what they have - life.

Personally I think Last Crusade end the franchise better, and I think it is a shame KOTCS somehow couldn't have been before Crusade (marriage or not in KOTCS). I say that because I do like KOTCS, but found Last Crusade's moral of embracing the wonder and concept of life - and having given up the idea of eternal life - whislt others (Donovan, Elsa etc) lost their lives striving for it, much more meaningful. Of course also, marriage could not occur without life. So I tend to see Last Crusade to have a better sentimental value and more meaning for the end of the franchise, than the marriage in KOTCS - you can't get anything above the concept of life - it is the biggest thing - bigger than a wedding. I also thought the musical score of Last Crusade's fitted nicely in to the Indiana Jones theme tune nicley at the end and made a much more wholesome feeling to the end of the adventure/franchise.

What do you think? KOTCS as an ending, or Last Crusade? Remember this isn't a "Last Crusade, as I don't consider KOTCS to exist" topic. SImply which ending you think has greater, more sentimental interest to you, which you think rounds the franchise off the best.


Cinematically speaking... it would have to be TLC. There is not much than can compete with the main characters riding off into the sunset. However, I do like the fact that by the end of KOTCS, Indy gets to have a family and become vice dean at the college.

Lynx 10-17-2008 11:44 AM

Crusade, no question. Riding off into the sunset, rekindling his relationship with his father, "illumination". . .it was perfect. KotCS is a decent movie, but it doesn't end the franchise well. Sure, he gets married and reunites with his long-lost son. . .but he still took the hat back from Mutt. You can tell he's not finished yet.

It's why I think an Indy V needs to be made. The ending to KotCS left the door wide open, far more so than Crusade did.

Udvarnoky 10-17-2008 11:56 AM

I'd have to agree with the general consensus. I don't think it's really the fault of the film makers - having Indy marry Marion is a good ending - but riding off into the sunset was the perfect close to the series. If Indy5 happens though, maybe they'll cook up something better.

I also think Lynx is spot on when he says Indy4 leaves the door open for another sequel.

StoneTriple 10-17-2008 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lynx
Riding off into the sunset, rekindling his relationship with his father, "illumination". . .it was perfect.


Aside from my preference for Indy getting the girl and taking his hat back - I will say, visually, Crusade has a last shot that's tough to beat.


caats 10-17-2008 12:33 PM

i agree that the visual goes to crusade. but i like the wedding. however, i never think of these like the end of the franchise. i view all of these films as just one out of many many adventures.

Forbidden Eye 10-17-2008 01:28 PM

Kingdom of the Crystal Skull

I don't think LC's ending is very good actually. The sunset was really only closure to his father's story as he finally got illuminations from the grail, the item he was after all his life. But you just KNEW Indy has to have been up to something since the holy grail. Especially in 19 years.

I really think KOTCS' ending is perfect, he gets a better job at the school, he finally settles down with a girl(although I would've preferred a new girl instead of Marion) with a son as well(who we assume goes back to school) but just when you think this equals settling down, that last shot shows that Indy still has a few more adventures up his sleeve.

That's why I'm not sure about Indy V. It seems impossible to top that ending.

oki9Sedo 10-17-2008 01:37 PM

The ending of Crusade very much felt like the ending of a big saga rather than a single film.

I suppose now the emotion of the ending has changed its meaning.....its now about the ending of the 1930s-era Indiana Jones adventures rather than the Indiana Jones adventures.

agentsands77 10-17-2008 01:50 PM

The ending of CRUSADE was more suitably epic, in its own way. It does have more of a "closer" quality than KINGDOM's finale.

My one regret about KINGDOM is that it wasn't made to be an Indiana Jones send-off in the way we might think of it. It doesn't feel like the close of a series, like things have wound down and we are now at the end of it all. In some sense, I was hoping that INDY IV would be the "last great adventure of Indiana Jones." The one where the world-weary hero goes out, gives it everything he's got, and then comes back. Instead, it feels like "just another adventure of Indiana Jones."

Major West 10-17-2008 01:52 PM

Don't forget, the ending for Mystery of the Blues. :D

oki9Sedo 10-17-2008 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Major West
Don't forget, the ending for Mystery of the Blues. :D


Not quite as embarrasing as The Star Wars Christmas Special, but still!

Indy's brother 10-17-2008 01:54 PM

No contest.


FILMKRUSC 10-17-2008 02:48 PM

The franchsie ends best with Last Crusade.

I won't even be adding KOTCS to my dvd collection at all.

OmegaSeamaster 10-17-2008 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FILMKRUSC
The franchsie ends best with Last Crusade.

I won't even be adding KOTCS to my dvd collection at all.


Amen to that.

Benraianajones 10-17-2008 03:22 PM

It isn't what the franchise ends BEST with, it is what you think has the best concept for the ending of Indy franhcise. As stated, this isn't a topic for generic "KOTCS wont be watched again" etc. It isn't part of the discussion.

Niteshade007 10-17-2008 03:54 PM

Despite not being a fan of Kingdom, I think I'm going to have to go with Kingdom's ending. Last Crusade's has always left me somewhat cold. It's cinematically impressive, although not really groundbreaking, but I always felt like they jumped from serious moment to funny too quickly. Indy is very clearly upset about Elsa's death, I'm sure he feels in some way responsible. His dad makes a joke about his name, and suddenly everything is okay and then we get the visually impressive riding off into the sunset ending.

Not that Kingdom had a great ending. Far from it, actually. But, if I have to choose between the two, I'll go with Kingdom, but only because it shows Indy and Marion together again. I really can't think of a better reason (or really, any reason) other than that.

Benraianajones 10-17-2008 03:58 PM

Looking beyond what is visually on screen though (sunset, jokes etc), which a few people here are not doing - I think the fact the movie focuses on the sentiment and concept of life and embracing it and not trying to take the concept of it in to your own hands (extending life with means not natural, and people in the movie pay for it ), is a far stronger ending, than just a marriage (as something to end a franchise).

jamiestarr 10-17-2008 04:24 PM

My only real complaint about Crystal Skull is that the last shot is just Mutt hanging out in the Chapel. Why not open it up and see Indy and Marion cascading down the stairs and driving a way???


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