Commies, I HATE these guys...

Why was it "Russians"?

It was NAZIS, never Germans...

Commies could have avoided representation of cultures. Rather than simply Soviets, Asians and South Americans could have figured into it as well.

The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression authored by several European academics documents a history of political and civilian repressions by Communist states, including genocides, extrajudicial executions, deportations, and artificial famines.

In the introduction, editor Stéphane Courtois states that "...Communist regimes... turned mass crime into a full-blown system of government". He claims that a death toll totals 94 million, not counting the "excess deaths" (decrease of the population due to lower than-expected birth rates). The breakdown of the number of deaths given by Courtois is as follows:

65 million in the People's Republic of China
20 million in the Soviet Union
2 million in Cambodia
2 million in North Korea
1.7 million in Africa
1.5 million in Afghanistan
1 million in the Communist states of Eastern Europe
1 million in Vietnam
150,000 in Latin America
10,000 deaths "resulting from actions of the international Communist movement and Communist parties not in power."

Courtois claims that Communist regimes are responsible for a greater number of deaths than any other political ideal or movement, including Nazism. The statistics of victims includes executions, famine, deaths resulting from deportations, physical confinement, or through forced labor.


So why was it Russians?
Why not keep it all black and white, good and evil?

Why wasn't it: Commies, I hate these guys!
 

Finn

Moderator
Staff member
It's like Joseph Stalin allegedly said...

"Let one man die, you have a tragedy. Let millions die, you have statistics."



Now, it's best keep in mind that some of the means the Western world used to fight the Red Scare were a bit draconian as well. Perhaps they felt that "Russians" was a bit more neutral term - using a word like "Commie" might have made somebody interpret that Indy harbors McCarthyan undertones?
 

IndyBr

Member
Not all communist suports the massacre, the ideology does not suport it. Nowadays it isn't absurd to be a communist like it is to be a nazi. It could have offended a lot of people if they said "communists are evil". Sure, Communist regimes (as far as I know it never existed a regime that was trully communist, they wanted to, but never really achieved that status) killed a lot of people, but communists today knows that and they don't agree with the slaughter (at least the ones I've been able to talk to, I'm not sure about the "big ones")

And besides, he did have some communists friends, didn't he?
 
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IndyBr said:
It could have offended a lot of people if they said "communists are bad".
Instead they said Russians are bad, and you'll have to excuse me but anyone who would be offended by the evil of Communism as portrayed in an Indiana Jones movie could use some quality time with a history book.

In any event both Spielberg and Ford have parents/gradparents who are Russian Jews...

Finn said:
Now, it's best keep in mind that some of the means the Western world used to fight the Red Scare were a bit draconian as well. Perhaps they felt that "Russians" was a bit more neutral term - using a word like "Commie" might have made somebody interpret that Indy harbors McCarthyan undertones?

The perfect opportunity to separate those who drink the Kool Aid and those who don't.

"Russians" is obviously a poor choice...it includes EVERYONE, including commies!

IndyBr said:
And besides, he did have some communists friends, didn't he?
Who?

God knows he SHOULD have!
 
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IndyBr

Member
Rocket Surgeon said:
Instead they said Russians are bad, and you'll have to excuse me but anyone who would be offended by the evil of Communism as portrayed in an Indiana Jones movie could use some quality time with a history book.

In any event both Spielberg and Ford have parents/gradparents who are Russian Jews...

Didn't the Indian government got offended with the dinner scene in Doom? And I remember the Russian government also getting offended by Crystal Skull. So there you have it.

And they didn't say that Russians are bad, the russians from the movie were from a specific time and regime in history that was, like you said, responsible for a lot of deaths, not you avarage russian.



In Young Indiana Jones, I don't remember the names...
 
IndyBr said:
Didn't the Indian government got offended with the dinner scene in Doom?
They wouldn't let them film in India AND use the title Maharaja in the film...the state wanted CONTROL.

In any event a simple line of dialog (which may have been cut) regarding the dinner fare could have made all the difference and been logical...

IndyBr said:
And I remember the Russian government also getting offended by Crystal Skull. So there you have it.
I don't, what did they say?

IndyBr said:
And they didn't say that Russians are bad, the russians from the movie were from a specific time and regime in history that was, like you said, responsible for a lot of deaths, not you avarage russian.

...but you think people would have been more offended by the term Commies?

IndyBr said:
In Young Indiana Jones, I don't remember the names...
This is about Crystal Skull...

Was there a Young Indy where he embraces the Communist Manifesto?
 
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IndyBr

Member
Rocket Surgeon said:
I don't, what did they say?

I don't remeber exactly, something about the american "super hero" beating the hell out of the socialists, who are depicted as evil.

A quick search and I found this:

http://douglasvgibbs.wordpress.com/...a-jones-and-the-kingdom-of-the-crystal-skull/

But this is not the one I'm talking about, but it serves as an example as well.


And I know we're talking about Skull, but just to give an in universe justification. ;)
And no, he was actually trying to stop Russia from leaving the war (meaning stop the revolution), but he seemed to get a little excited by a speech from Lenin.
 
IndyBr said:
I don't remeber exactly, something about the american "super hero" beating the hell out of the socialists, who are depicted as evil.

A quick search and I found this:

http://douglasvgibbs.wordpress.com/...a-jones-and-the-kingdom-of-the-crystal-skull/

Russian Communists Offended by Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull

Indiana Jones Offends Communists – Offensive? To Commies? Jeeeeez!

Are you offended by the truth? Well, if you are Russia, and if your distorted revision of history is challenged by Indiana Jones and the latest movie “Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull,” all you have to do is ban the movie.

That’s right, now that we live in a society that is offended by everything under the sun, it is no surprise that Russian communists are all up in arms about a movie that dares base its story around the fact that the Soviet Union “made trouble” for the United States and her allies.

After all, it’s not like the Russian communists had missiles pointed at the U.S., or were engaging in a propaganda war that distorted history and demonized American interests. In fact, by responding in this way aren’t the Russians admitting to submission to Western Ideals? After all, apparently they have adopted the idiotic Western tendency to be offended by everything, and proclaim political correctness, rather than suck it up and admit that their history is one of violence, totalitarianism, and a desire for world domination.

There is a reason that the ranks of the once powerful Communist Party has dwindled since Soviet times. However, the remaining members feel they are now tasked with defending the achievements of the old Soviet Union, no matter how sparse those achievements seem to be.

But isn’t that what suppressive governments do? Isn’t it a normal reaction for an oppressive government to ban anything that brings their style of government into question?

Russia, thanks for proving our point.


But this is not the one I'm talking about, but it serves as an example as well.

Serves as an example of what? The blogger makes an off handed reference to unknown "russian communists"...

IndyBr said:
And I know we're talking about Skull, but just to give an in universe justification. ;)
Hmmm...so who was his Commie friend?

IndyBr said:
And no, he was actually trying to stop Russia from leaving the war (meaning stop the revolution), but he seemed to get a little excited by a speech from Lenin.
Excited by a speech?

So you think it would be wrong for Indy to have said, "Commies, I hate these guys"?
 
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IndyBr

Member
Rocket Surgeon said:
Serves as an example of what? The blogger makes an off handed reference to unknown "russian communists"...

Of people being offended by a movie. Being "educated" enough to realise "oh, it's just a movie" is one thing, but a movie may offer a depiction tha some people may take for granted. As said in this other article:

http://unconfirmedsources.com/?itemid=3283


"'The film is low-quality and would raise a smile if there wasn't a danger of drawing into its orbit teenagers who know nothing about the 1950s,' Vladimir Mukhin, another member, said in comments on the Internet site."

Not that I agree with those guys, just showing their take on the subject.


And yeah... in the "Adventures in the Secret Service" episode.
 
IndyBr said:
Of people being offended by a movie. Being "educated" enough to realise "oh, it's just a movie" is one thing, but a movie may offer a depiction tha some people may take for granted. As said in this other article:

http://unconfirmedsources.com/?itemid=3283

"'The film is low-quality and would raise a smile if there wasn't a danger of drawing into its orbit teenagers who know nothing about the 1950s,' Vladimir Mukhin, another member, said in comments on the Internet site."

Not that I agree with those guys, just showing their take on the subject.

And yeah... in the "Adventures in the Secret Service" episode.

...and yet it screened in over 800 Russian cinemas.

Here's the rest:

MOSCOW - Communist party members in St Petersburg on Friday condemned the new Indiana Jones' film as crude anti-Soviet propaganda that distorted history and called for it to be banned from Russian screens.

"Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull" stars Harrison Ford as an archaeologist in 1957 competing with an evil KGB agent, played by Cate Blanchett, to find a skull endowed with mystic powers
" Together with America we defeated Hitler, and how we sympathized when bin Laden hit them. But they go ahead and scare kids with evil Communists. These people have no shame," said Viktor Perov, a communist party member in Russia's second city.

The comments were made at a meeting of the local Communist party and posted on its Internet site www.kplo.ru.

"Our women don't look like Nazis, but maybe Cate Blanchett was threatened by unemployment, so she made this film," Perov said.

The film, the fourth in the hugely successful Indiana Jones series, went on release in Russian cinemas on Thursday. Russian media said it was being shown on 808 screens, the widest ever release for a Hollywood movie, but many Russian government officials proposed a ban on showing the film, calling it anti-Soviet propaganda.

"The film is low-quality and would raise a smile if there wasn't a danger of drawing into its orbit teenagers who know nothing about the 1950s," Vladimir Mukhin, another member, said in comments on the Internet site.

"Indians and aliens unite with Jones and his untrustworthy buddies to save the world from a Russian threat - what rubbish, simply a paranoid Churchillian fantasy," Mukhin said., "Bush and his CIA want to start the cold war all over again"

So the Russian Government wsnt offended, it screened, but a political party denounced it. So why depict a Soviet Socialist Hero as a murdering psychopath?

Is it preferable to have a decorated America War Hero, (Colonel no less) write them off as Russians instead of Commies?
 
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IndyBr

Member
Rocket Surgeon said:
Is it preferable to have a decorated America War Hero, (Colonel no less) write them off as Russians instead of Commies?

Point taken. But I was arguing more about the communism political ideology than it's relation to the Russians. I mean... Russia have changed, but communism (the political ideology) is still pretty much the same all over the world.

And unfortunatly I couldn't find the article I was talking about... it was way back when the movie was released. But I guess you're right about that, it probably wasn't the government.
 

reinthal

New member
A great new thread!

Actually during the 1980s, still (though it's hard for my Gen-Y sisters to believe) right smack in the Cold War, I remember if you called the country Russia you would be corrected. It was properly, of course, the Soviet Union.

Still it didn't stop people calling the *people* the Russians or using the term "the Russkies", but that was applied to anyone within the USSR, with no real discernment.

But sure, "Commies" (minus the "I hate these guys") would have been better choice.

Why do I say minus the "I hate these guys"? Well, simply because I can't imagine Indy "hating" communists like he hated Nazis. Why do I think that? That's hard for me to explain but Communism is not in itself a hateful ideology. It's wrong-headed and ultimately destructive but more something to be combatted than hated. Just my 2c.
 

Dr.Jonesy

Well-known member
Hmm...for some reason this never occurred to me. At least Spalko says 'Soviet Union'.

Indy should've referred to them as "Damned Reds" or something.
 

IndyBr

Member
reinthal said:
I can't imagine Indy "hating" communists like he hated Nazis. Why do I think that? That's hard for me to explain but Communism is not in itself a hateful ideology.

Agreed.

Anyone remember the Iron Phoenix comics? Indy was invited by the Soviet government to evaluate some artifacts. And of course there was also Major Nadia Kirov (very different from Irina Spalko, and she had no intention to kill Indy), she was the lead soviet in the comics, and she even joined forces with Indy at the end.
He didn't refer to the Soviets in the comic neither as Commies nor Russians, just "Comrade Nadia and her crew".
 
reinthal said:
Still it didn't stop people calling the *people* the Russians or using the term "the Russkies", but that was applied to anyone within the USSR, with no real discernment.
I remember looking at them as competitors without any real hatred...
reinthal said:
But sure, "Commies" (minus the "I hate these guys") would have been better choice.

Why do I say minus the "I hate these guys"? Well, simply because I can't imagine Indy "hating" communists like he hated Nazis. Why do I think that? That's hard for me to explain but Communism is not in itself a hateful ideology. It's wrong-headed and ultimately destructive but more something to be combatted than hated. Just my 2c.
Nazis were Socialists and your reasoning applies, which is exactly why I posted the laundry list of atrocities, Indy is someone, as an archaeologist, who would be familiar with the cultures and as a decorated Colonel (and spy) would have access to the government detail far before the general public. It would be easy enough to illustrate that in the film / differentiate between the two...

The allure of Indiana Jones isn't to bet bogged down by political ideologies. The illustration of good vs evil made Indy's decisions to use deadly force justifiable and invested in characters because their lives were in palpable danger.

Someone's got to be the villain.

They can show Indy killing a peasant graveyard ninja guardian but not a bloodthirsty psycho commie?

It should have been "Commies", and the killing of US Soldiers should have been enough for him to hate them.
IndyBr said:
Agreed.

Anyone remember the Iron Phoenix comics? Indy was invited by the Soviet government to evaluate some artifacts. And of course there was also Major Nadia Kirov (very different from Irina Spalko, and she had no intention to kill Indy), she was the lead soviet in the comics, and she even joined forces with Indy at the end. He didn't refer to the Soviets in the comic neither as Commies nor Russians, just "Comrade Nadia and her crew".
I haven't read all the comics, (because they're so poorly written, and sometimes drawn), but they're decidedly not considered when producing the films...

Spalko and crew were the worst that Communism had to offer and they should have mined that.

Your responses have me curious, are you a Communist IndyBr?
 
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IndyBr

Member
Rocket Surgeon said:
I haven't read all the comics, (because they're so poorly written, and sometimes drawn), but they're decidedly not considered when producing the films...

I know that... just giving another example of Soviets depiction in the Indy universe.

And no, not even close to being a Communist. But I do have some Communists friends... I'm graduating in history, it comes with the territory. ;)
 

Team Indy

New member
Ah, communism. The one thing that no one knows nothing about. Naturally, entire governments were based upon it.

In such, lies the Indyverse. Communists are all Russian stooges, despite backstabbers like Mac. They were not East Germans, and Communism did not last until the eventual breakdown in 1991, and some countries (okay, half the world) are still Communist today.

The funny thing is, I think Indy depicts each Russian on his or her character, including everyone. It's hard to define these people in the movie because they all travel together in groups, and one begins to wonder where they came from and why.

Herein lies the problem. If Indy is supposed to be a great American hero, he must fight Communists, for the Nazi regime is truly dead, and there are no Neo-Nazis, including political groups fighting for power around the world, like anarchists and Marxist-Leninists.

When discussing Indiana Jones, one must do so with a clear heart and open mind and remember it is just a movie, etc.
 

IndyBr

Member
Team Indy said:
and some countries (okay, half the world) are still Communist today.

Half the world? There are only four or five states today that declares thenselves as communists.
I know about China, Cuba and Vietnam... but I'm sure there's at least one or two more.

Edit: Ok, a quick search and I've found out there's only four states with self-declared communist governments. China, Cuba, Laos and Vietnam.
 
So...

Someone's got to be the villain.

They can show Indy killing a peasant graveyard ninja guardian but not a bloodthirsty psycho commie?

It should have been "Commies", and the killing of US Soldiers should have been enough for him to hate them.

Spalko and crew were the worst that Communism had to offer and they should have mined that.
 

IndyBr

Member
Rocket Surgeon said:
Someone's got to be the villain.
The odd thing is that even in the making of feature Spielberg says "And the Russians got the job".

Rocket Surgeon said:
They can show Indy killing a peasant graveyard ninja guardian but not a bloodthirsty psycho commie?.
Indy is a lot softer in KOTCS, he killed the first Cemitery Warrior because it was going to kill Mutt, and he had to do something, but he choose not to kill the second one. But yeah... Indy did not kill that many Soviets, but we see a lot of then having some gruesome deaths... getting burned by that rocket thing, incinerated by the Nuclear blast, eaten by ants... and finally burned alive by the Interdimensional Being.
I guess that's Spielberg and Lucas growing softer.

Rocket Surgeon said:
It should have been "Commies", and the killing of US Soldiers should have been enough for him to hate them.

I'm still not so sure... you have some good points, but how about "Soviets" instead of Commies?

Rocket Surgeon said:
Spalko and crew were the worst that Communism had to offer and they should have mined that.

Indeed.
 
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