The World without KotCS, a better place?
 

So many people have been criticising KOTCS (me included) that I want to know if their hatred of Indy IV is so high that they would rather it to not exist.

So would you rather their have been no Indy 4 or are you such a fan that any Indy is fine as long as we get to see it?

The ideal of Indy 4 was always worth pursuing, but overall, they should not have made it as it is. A decade of script wrangling...for this?!

blame George "I've gone off the deep end" Lucas for all the crazy sh!t he pulled in the script sesions with stevie.

My God, then just DON'T WATCH it ever again.

So what if KOTCS wasn't your "dream movie"? Get over it. Not one of the original three IJ movies are without numerous flaws.

As I have said before, this movie is a gift. One that almost never happened. After almost a twenty year abscence, it's amazing that this movie was even finished. I for one, am just grateful to Ford, Speilberg and Lucas for giving us MORE Indiana Jones.

Exactly. Well said...

I loved INDY 4 and even if it was bad it didn't take away from the originals

It was absolutely great that Indy 4 in any form was made. Period.

I agree here.

I enjoyed KoTCS. Critics ain't gonna get me down. People's biased opinioms, either.

I'm convinced that I exist in a parallel universe where Indy 4 and the Star Wars Prequels are epic failures and J.J. Abrams is sacrilegiously reinventing Star Trek and Michael Bay is the A-list director of the times. I have to figure out how to get back to the other universe where George Lucas and Steven Spielberg still make great films, J.J. Abrams is lost on a desert isle somewhere in the South Pacific and Michael Bay is working on cars at Grease Monkey.

Only Harold Oxley can help you now...

Great Scott!

Ronald Regan the actor?





Anyway come on Indy 4 was good leave it at that.

Personally i felt alittle disapointed by the film, after 6 weeks of reflecting on what i saw ive warmed to it and scences of it are etched in my mind are vividly as the boulder schene in Raiders or the rope bridge in TOD.

Yes i can see the script is flawed but when all the hype has settled and the 'what if's' and 'lucas bashing' has died down, there are still bits in KOTCS where i hear that theme tune we all love and see the fedora on Ford's head again and im instantly taken back to being a kid. For me it makes KOTCS all worth while.:D

Spalko is this going to be you?











Oh a whole six weeks of reflecting! Wow you sure have the right to hate Indy 4.

what you on about? I said ive warmed to it and i am happy they made it.

Oh nothing as long as you liked it as a kid! I hate when people go I watched the films a week before Indy 4 and I did not like it

Na, i grew up with these films and have watched them over and over again, granted i only got to see LC at the cinema and was quite young when that happened but i love everything indy.

I just ment i was disapointed when i first saw it, probably down to my own hype and expectations, after 6 weeks of reflecting on KOTCS i more than accept it as part of the indy francise and cant wait to get my hands on the dvd when it comes out.

Yeah I was not so crazy about it the first time either but I love it now.

I started out hating it, but now I love it.

When people talk bad about KOTCS I am constantly reminded of when Temple of Doom came out. The comments of "IT WAS WAY OVER THE TOP" were thrown around whenver the movie was mentioned. Now it seems the movie has moved into the classics phase and has settled into being a good installment of the franchise. (Yes I know there are people that absolutely hate TOD, but I'm speaking in general terms of movie history.)

I think if the same question was asked back them about TOD much debate just like this would have come up. I guess my point would be, over time KOTCS will gain more respect just as TOD has.

Sometimes, and I don't know how everyone else is, but I think, I think too much about stuff and just don't go with the flow. To me this this happened with KOTCS, I did too much overthinking.

So, at first my opinion was "Why did they even bother?" Now, after seeing it a second time, I'm greatful they finally got together and put this out.

That was the point i was trying to make, after all my expectations and hype has gone away and i look back as KOTCS as a whole without trying to analyse it with the previous 3, i like the movie for what it is, good fun and nice to have another 2hours (ish) of indiana jones.

Personally I’d much rather not have a movie then a bad movie. Call me an idealist, but why exactly should I be pleased to have (what some would deem) garbage? I’ll never understand this pathetically obedient and grateful mentality. I’m not grateful for a sub par movie. No one should be. I’d be grateful if they delivered a great movie. Crystal Skull was far from it. They should be grateful they got my money! That's how it works, I pay to formulate an opinion. If I felt it sucked...oh well. We both have to live with it.

You're right about all of this. The only problem is, you would not have liked Indy 4 no matter what it was. Period.

I doubt that. I'd have liked it a heck of a lot more if they knocked the aliens and kept it Indiana Jones.

I'll take a failed attempt to make the movie over the failure of the movie they made any day.

The movie had so much potential in the second half... So I'm basically hoping the DVD that comes out later will have a lot of features to explain itself, or a directors cut with better editing. This of course is wishful thinking and I doubt they'll release the DVD like that, but ya never know.

Still Im really glad I got to see an old Indy back in another adventure. It once again made me realize why I love these movies so much. Though despite it's flaws, I still had a blast watching it for the first time in the theaters. And I can honestly say that I haven't had that much fun in a theater for a LONG time. Indy 4 delivered in my opinion.

TOD received a lot of negativity upon its release. Of course, by the time LC was released, TOD had suddenly become a classic to everyone who thought LC was too campy.

The only difference with KOTCS is that the internet provides local criticism on a global level. It's like if everyone had had their own newsletter, column, or talk show back in 1984. But the critical and commercial response has been virtually the same as TOD and LC.

I think this falls under what I was saying about TOD... KOTCS is different, just like TOD was different from Raiders. Last Crusade is sort of like Raiders so it's not that far of stones throw. KOTCS is different from Raiders, TOD, and LC...it has a lot against it in that regard. Still, at least for me, there's still enough of Indiana Jones elements that make it a good installment to the franchise.

Espeically considering the time frame of 1957...Russion/communists, Secret Military Bases, Hot Rods, Greasers, Preps, the Jungle (Tarzan was big in the 50's) Atomic Fear, and of course Sci-Fi B movie flying saucer.

I think placing our favorite retro/pulp/action/adventure hero in this time frame, it was only natural for these events to take place. It still held traditional Indy with elements such as secret temples and puzzles with adding progression of the times with the character.

I thought it was a great movie. I'm looking forward to owning the DVD. I feel sorry for those that didn't like it though, but not too sorry. ;)

I guess if you didn't like it, and also didn't want those who did to be entertained by it, then you might have preferred it not be made. Or maybe if you've got a big honkin' Indy tattoo covering up your entire arm and you hated Skull then you might wanna start wearing sleeves. I dunno, but i enjoyed it immensely, once i adjusted to it, flaws and all.

Bringing the aliens in was a bold move, since they pretty much had to know it would polarize the fan base. It's nice to think that most of today's young fans will have gotten the aliens from the get-go. Hopefully they won't be let down by the old ones when they get around to seeing them for being too boring with all the real world stuff in them!

excellently said. I couldn't agree more.

Good Question...
 

This is a tough one. They didn't need to make KOTCS. They had three movies that were consistently good, which often doesn't happen with a trilogy.

The first time I saw it, I thought to myself "I waited for that???" It was a disappointment. To me it felt like if I were going into the theater to see a Star Wars prequel for the first time and the movie they showed was Spaceballs. The movie felt to me like a spoof of Indiana Jones.

The second time was much more fun, and entertaining without all of the expectations.

But still, I can't decide if they should have just left the series alone or not. Maybe this is something that I won't be able to decide until I can watch the DVD in conjunction with all of the trilogy.

Even though I liked it better the second time, I just can't get the first time disappointment out of my head.

Short answere: YES, of course!

Before 2008 the name "Indiana Jones" means three fantastic Movies. Three masterpieces!

Now the name "Indiana Jones" means three fantastic Movies. Three masterpieces!... and ONE embarrasing, lousy movie...


@jamiestarr
Wrong! There was no hate after the release of "Doom" (the emotions were mixed) and of course there was no hate after the release of "Crusade".

"Skull" will never be a classic... I think Spielberg, Ford and Lucas still know this.

Are you kidding? No hate for TOD? That's why SS has said numerous times that LC was his apology for TOD...or course that and to complete the trilogy.

There was a lot of people, or at least that I remember, that didn't like it because it was NOTHING like Raiders of the Lost Ark.

Crystal Skull will be up there in do time...especially with the whole new generation that went to go see the movie. They will look back and remember what a blast they had seeing it and that in itself will make Skull a classic.

Just my opinion...I could be wrong...but I don't think we'll ever see Indy 4 in the 4.99 bin at walmart.

Do you think Spielberg hates "Doom"? Ohh... you are totally wrong! He never said " I hate this movie!". He thinks that "Temple" was the worst of the three Indiana Jones-Movies. Thats all.

TRust me! Back in 1984 there was no hate like in 2008.

By the way: I guess Spielberg think that "Skull" is the worst Indy-Movie. I a few years he will talk about this

I never said he hated it, but I know he was disappointed with it.

You wrote: "No hate for TOD? That's why SS has said numerous times that LC was his apology for TOD..."

Meaning, of course, that Spielberg apologized for TOD because many "hated" it, and saw it as a poor film; Not meaning that Spielberg hated it, but that LC was his apology for the perceived (by others, not Spielberg) poorness of TOD.

Of course they should have made it!

I am convinced after my 4th viewing that there is no way this movie could have escaped the level of criticism it's recieved no matter how good it is.

The movie has topped 700 million. It would not be nearly as successful if it "sucked".

Bottom line is, this is as much fun as you can have at the movies, as long as you go into the film not worried that your childhood is going to be "raped" LOL.

Skull is just as good if not better then TOD. It will fare much better in the coming years.

STAR WARS EPISODE I: THE PHANTOM MENACE = Worldwide: $924,317,558

uh, yeah - Menace was also probably the most anticipated film of all time, and that 924 million figure is to date - Skull has cleared 700 mill in a mere month.

reality check indeedy.

:whip:

And you can apply the same flawed logic to the 19 year anticipation for Indy 4, not to mention the fact that ticket prices have almost tripled and so has the general population. I'm sure the adjusted gross is much more telling of the actual figures.

It's not flawed logic, just the truth.

If Indy 4 was even HALF as bad as you guys make it out to be, it would not be raking in millions weeks after it's release.

It's an entertaining popcorn flick just like the other sequels.

Nothing more, nothing less...

@eshine
"Indy 4" is not very successfull for an "Indiana Jones"-Movie. And by the way: Do you think "much money = Good movie"???

I did not stop smiling through the whole film. I laughed at all the jokes and silly things (even Mutt's Tarzan act). I had a great time and was just happy that an Indy film was made.
Later when i recapped on it I noticed its flaws and was annoyed that SS and GL had put them in an Indy movie. But now I'm fine with Indy 4. It was meant to be Indiana Jones on his most daring and out there adventure yet. It was set in the 50s and so was meant to be a homage to the 50s B-movies rather than the 30s serials that the trilogy was based on.
Though i didnt like the film i still liked it (confusing i know) and i'm just happy it happened.

i dont think KOTCS haters cant agree that they were happy that there is another indy movie even though it may have let them down.

I agree, Mutt - glad you enjoyed the film as much as I did!

I have a strong feeling alot of you will like this movie much more when you see it again for a second or third time. It's a really fun movie.

I do think you are making a fairly valid point with the Phantom Menace analogy. My only doubt is whether Indy is anything like the same beast as Star Wars in terms of fanatical fans. Indy has a broader appeal (in the viewings I went to, there were 50-60 year old couples in the audience) so I think the Box Office makeup is different. Are they likely to have a massive Indy Europe convention like they did for Star Wars for example? :)

Wow... uhm... Wow. Logical fallacy up the ass. You sir fail at rhetoric.

So I guess it's safe to say, that it shouldn't have been made for some, but definitely made for others. I for one after seeing it a second time like that it has been made...and wouldnt' mind seeing another Indy and Mutt adventure during the end of the 1950's.

I agree that things like box office, and chart positions aren't the best indicator of quality. Box office is a reflection of marketing success and popularity. The question is this: Other than individual opinion, how does one gauge the quality of a film?

Using things like critics reviews and awards won are just ineffective as using box office numbers. Furthermore, as time goes on, these opinions change anyways.

I would say it wouldn't have been better if another Indy film had been made......but it WOULD have been better if THIS particular Indy movie hadn't been made. I've voiced my problems with the movie in several different threads, so there's no real need to rehash the myriads of points on what makes this such a poor film......but if they truly had wanted to make a new Indy movie for the fans, they should have thought longer and harder on the plot and script for handing us this drivel.