Grey Cloud

Insomniac

New member
Stoo said:
It certainly does, Annie! Nice find.:hat: He looks Sioux to me. I did a quick search for Arthur Iron Nest and found this excellent page of photographs of other Indians and their pipes, most of which are the same type. Grey Cloud's is made from 2 pieces. (You can see him attaching them together in the top pic I posted.) The closest examples to his on this page belong to John Comes Again (Sioux), Charles American Horse, William Frog and Shot in the Eye.:gun: No tribe info on the last 3. Have a look!

http://www.hempmuseum.org/ROOMS/PEACEPIPES.htm

I also found this excerpt (and put my some of my suspicions in bold). Granted it's from 1907 and the list is obviously not complete:

http://faculty.marianopolis.edu/c.belanger/quebechistory/encyclopedia/calumetpipe.htm

"The use of the calumet, sometimes called "peace-pipe" and "war pipe," was widespread in the Mississippi valley generally. It has been found among the Potawatomi, Cheyenne, Shoshoni, Pawnee Loups, Piegan, Santee , Yanktonais, Sihasapa, Kansa, Siksika, Crows, Cree, Skitswish, Nez Percés , Illinois , Chickasaw, Choctaw, Chitimacha, Chippewa, Winnebago, and Natchez . In the Ohio and St. Lawrence valleys and southward its use is not so definitely shown."

So far, the look of the pipe is leaning toward Sioux. Whatever the case may be, I'm 99.9% sure that in 1950, Grey Cloud lived in Canada. Evidence to follow...:D
You don't disappoint Dr. Stoo!!!
:hat:
 

avidfilmbuff

New member
Even though the character only appeared for a few minutes, I thought the actor had great chemistry with Harrison Ford. It actually made me wish we could have had the character in a film.
 

AnnieJones

New member
AnnieJones said:
Apparently Indiana Jones has a history of having American Indian friends.
According to Young Indiana Jones and the Lost Gold of Durango,the 10th young adult novel in it's series,he had a Pueblo friend named Jay from Colorado.And in The Ultimate Guide and Indiana Jones Wiki( http://indianajones.wikia.com/wiki/1919 ) he knew a Navajo man from New Mexico.
Stoo said:
That would be Changing Man from the flashbacks in "Peril at Delphi" who Indy meets in 1913 and again in 1916 (when Indy has his vision quest of the eagle).
Then the dates that Indiana Jones Wiki and The Ultimate Guide gave are(again)incorrect.The date they gave was 1919.Thanks for the help Stoo!(y)
 

metalinvader

Well-known member
AnnieJones said:
Then the dates that Indiana Jones Wiki and The Ultimate Guide gave are(again)incorrect.


As great as that book is,They really didn't do a great job proof reading the thing.

Also,Let's not forget Indy's America Indian guide from that SW crossover.Granted I know the story isn't 'EU Canon" but anyone think it could have been Grey Cloud?
 

dr.jones1986

Active member
Stoo said:
Sound great, dr.jones1986! I've never been to the mid-south or the deep interior of the U.S. The closest I've been was a visit to Red Rock Canyon during a trip to Las Vegas. It was beautiful! One of my aunts was born & raised in Arizona and is very well-versed and passionate about the Navajo and their culture/history.:)

Grey Cloud is a great character and it's too bad we don't know much about him. Using the Wyoming location and the line, "the most sacred relic of my people's past", we can narrow it down to him being either Cheyenne, Crow, Shoshone or Arahapo. Yes? No?

For any Native American experts out there: Are there any tell-tale signs that give a clue as to which tribe he belongs to?

P.S. "Little Big Man" is one of my favourite movies.

The great thing about Grey Cloud is he really fits into the whole Indy is a "man of the world" character trait. In the movies we always see him with trusty local guides who he has been friends with for years such as Sallah and Wu Han...Grey Cloud fits that bill.

As for his tribal origin, I was thinking Cheyenne, Crow or Shoshone. I know those are two big tribes in Wyoming where the episode takes place.
 

Stoo

Well-known member
Insomniac said:
Medicine or maybe something for the pipe?
Heh heh, it could be peyote:p (but that only grows in the south).
AnnieJones said:
Then the dates that Indiana Jones Wiki and The Ultimate Guide gave are(again)incorrect.The date they gave was 1919.Thanks for the help Stoo!(y)
Actually, the vision quest is hard to pinpoint because of the differences between the books and the TV show so it could be either 1916 or 1919. To be fair, Ultimate Guide tried to fit it in where they thought best. Same with me.

Peril at Delphi (written before the "Chronicles") says that the 2nd meeting with Changing Man was after Indy's graduation when he went to work on his uncle's farm. Will have to check but I think the book may only give the location as "southwest" without mentioning which state.

Ultimate Guide says: "December 1919, Indy goes on a vision quest in New Mexico with a Navajo medicine man."

Since we know that Indy has an uncle & aunt in New Mexico, I've always imagined the vision quest to be in 1916 around the time of events in "Curse of the Jackal/Spring Break Adventure". UG uses similar logic but moves it forward to 1919 which is possible but it brings us back to the question: When and how did Indy start university without finishing high school?:confused:
metalinvader said:
Also,Let's not forget Indy's America Indian guide from that SW crossover.Granted I know the story isn't 'EU Canon" but anyone think it could have been Grey Cloud?
Upon first hearing about it, I was hoping it could be him but after seeing it, I thought "no" because of the setting and the character's age. It's definitely in northwest whereas Grey Cloud is most likely from the mid-west and the character looks much too young. (How old does Short Round look to you? To me, he could be anywhere from 15-25.)
dr.jones1986 said:
As for his tribal origin, I was thinking Cheyenne, Crow or Shoshone. I know those are two big tribes in Wyoming where the episode takes place.
Thanks for chiming in on that, dr.jones1986. Agreed, Grey Cloud fits the WuHan/Sallah bill. I want him to be Crow and I think I've got a case to support my theory.:D
 

Lao_Che

Active member
Stoo said:
Actually, the vision quest is hard to pinpoint because of the differences between the books and the TV show so it could be either 1916 or 1919. To be fair, Ultimate Guide tried to fit it in where they thought best. Same with me.

Peril at Delphi (written before the "Chronicles") says that the 2nd meeting with Changing Man was after Indy's graduation when he went to work on his uncle's farm. Will have to check but I think the book may only give the location as "southwest" without mentioning which state.

Ultimate Guide says: "December 1919, Indy goes on a vision quest in New Mexico with a Navajo medicine man."

Since we know that Indy has an uncle & aunt in New Mexico, I've always imagined the vision quest to be in 1916 around the time of events in "Curse of the Jackal/Spring Break Adventure". UG uses similar logic but moves it forward to 1919 which is possible but it brings us back to the question: When and how did Indy start university without finishing high school?:confused:

Yeah, the UG fixes down New Mexico, PaD only says southwest, just bear in mind Indy also has an farmer uncle Pete. :p

Going by the non-contradictory information, PaD does state he finished high school in Chicago, albeit not how. Keeper of the Indycron Chee has it that it's University of Chicago education is from 1920 -22 so there is some wiggle room of almost a year.
 

dr.jones1986

Active member
Stoo, you never gave us your reason you believe he is from Canada. Im very curious now...


Stoo said:
Heh heh, it could be peyote:p (but that only grows in the south).
Actually, the vision quest is hard to pinpoint because of the differences between the books and the TV show so it could be either 1916 or 1919. To be fair, Ultimate Guide tried to fit it in where they thought best. Same with me.

Peril at Delphi (written before the "Chronicles") says that the 2nd meeting with Changing Man was after Indy's graduation when he went to work on his uncle's farm. Will have to check but I think the book may only give the location as "southwest" without mentioning which state.

Ultimate Guide says: "December 1919, Indy goes on a vision quest in New Mexico with a Navajo medicine man."

Since we know that Indy has an uncle & aunt in New Mexico, I've always imagined the vision quest to be in 1916 around the time of events in "Curse of the Jackal/Spring Break Adventure". UG uses similar logic but moves it forward to 1919 which is possible but it brings us back to the question: When and how did Indy start university without finishing high school?:confused:
Upon first hearing about it, I was hoping it could be him but after seeing it, I thought "no" because of the setting and the character's age. It's definitely in northwest whereas Grey Cloud is most likely from the mid-west and the character looks much too young. (How old does Short Round look to you? To me, he could be anywhere from 15-25.)
Thanks for chiming in on that, dr.jones1986. Agreed, Grey Cloud fits the WuHan/Sallah bill. I want him to be Crow and I think I've got a case to support my theory.:D
 

Stoo

Well-known member
Lao Che said:
Yeah, the UG fixes down New Mexico, PaD only says southwest, just bear in mind Indy also has an farmer uncle Pete.
Thanks for confirming, Lao Che.:hat: Regarding Uncle Pete's farm, I've always imagined him to be a brother of Anna in Virginia.
Lao Che said:
Going by the non-contradictory information, PaD does state he finished high school in Chicago, albeit not how. Keeper of the Indycron Chee has it that it's University of Chicago education is from 1920 -22 so there is some wiggle room of almost a year.
The thing with Mr. Chee is though, I don't agree with some of his answers/reasoning. We have a thread on the subject of Indy's schooling and it definitely comes into play with the 1916 vs. 1919 Changing Man thing.
dr.jones1986 said:
Stoo, you never gave us your reason you believe he is from Canada. Im very curious now...
Just to be clear, I'm don't know if he is *from* Canada but am 99.9% sure that he *lives* there in 1950. (Hint: it has to do with the truck rather than Grey Cloud's costume or pipe.) I'll prepare a photo analysis for illustration purposes.:)
 
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Lao_Che

Active member
Stoo said:
Thanks for confirming, Lao Che.:hat: Regarding Uncle Pete's farm, I've always imagined him to be a brother of Anna in Virginia.
The thing with Mr. Chee is though, I don't agree with some of his answers/reasoning. We have a thread on the subject of Indy's schooling and it definitely comes into play with the 1916 vs. 1919 Changing Man thing.

Oh I don't agree with everything he does either, but he does give an official answer.

I assumed Pete to be Anna's brother aswell but I also assumed Grace was Henry's sister then the Lost Journal happened. ;)
 

Stoo

Well-known member
Here's my reason for believing that Grey Cloud lives in Alberta, Canada and is, possibly, a Crow. The attention to detail with regards to the license plates in the Indy films ("Crusade" and "Skull", specifically, since I haven't checked out the other 2) is always spot-on and I don't believe it's any different for Young Indy either.

This is only shot in "Blues" where you can see the truck's plate before it gets covered in snow. I checked the 1950 license plates from ALL 50 states and it didn't resemble any of them but it is a PERFECT MATCH to 1950 Alberta! (As usual in the Indy movies, the bad guys have period New York plates.)

The truck also has a rifle rack in the cab behind Indy and Grey Cloud which is a clue that the vehicle belongs to GC and Indy is at the wheel simply because he's the better driver. (For some reason, that's the impression I got when it first aired but was never sure.) What do y'all think?

License_Alberta.jpg

License_NewYork.jpg


Lao Che said:
Oh I don't agree with everything he does either, but he does give an official answer.
Concerning Anna's cause of death, I think I'll go with what Indy says and not Mr. Chee.;)
 

dr.jones1986

Active member
good eye Stoo, and Alberta is not that far away from Wyoming where the episode takes place. New York however is quite a hike from Wyoming so that was kind of a strange license plate choice.
 

indyartist

New member
I wonder where it was actually filmed. They had to find a place with a lot of snow for the story. Also, I found it kinda funny when Indy got out of the crashed truck and had his whip attached to his hip;) but unfortuneately he didn't have his pistol when he needed it against those guys in the cabin. But still with Indy, it worked out good in the end.
 

Junior Jones

New member
indyartist said:
I wonder where it was actually filmed. They had to find a place with a lot of snow for the story...

If I remember correctly, it was filmed on Harrison's property in Jackson Hole, Wyoming.
 

Stoo

Well-known member
Lao Che said:
What? Both flu and scarlet fever?;)
With what SPF-as-Indy says.;) The death of Anna Jones?
indyartist said:
but unfortuneately he didn't have his pistol when he needed it against those guys in the cabin.
If you watch closely, you can see Indy has his holster during the snowstorm...then it disappears (along with another piece of gear!:eek:)

Bill, thanks for posting those links to the paintings. They are absolutely beautiful. Some of them remind of N.C. Wyeth (one of my faves)! I'm sure your familiar with his stuff.
Junior Jones said:
If I remember correctly, it was filmed on Harrison's property in Jackson Hole, Wyoming.
Yeah, I've got some making-of footage that I'll have to dig out and post in one of the "Mystery of the Blues" threads.
dr.jones1986 said:
good eye Stoo, and Alberta is not that far away from Wyoming where the episode takes place. New York however is quite a hike from Wyoming so that was kind of a strange license plate choice.
Thanks, '86.:hat: New York is indeed far but this gives a clue as to the lengths the villains were willing to travel within the unknown backstory of the chase for the pipe! Anyone other opinions on the possible Grey Cloud/Alberta connection?
 
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