Would TOD have better if Short Round was a girl

Spurlock

New member
How about Willie, would the character have been better if she was a he, and Short Round was a Short Roundette? Honestly that's the only way I could imagine Short Round being a girl would make sense. That way they'd still contrast each other.

But of course if Willie was a boy, they'd need to change her from a singer and dancer to something less... ga- out of place. And it'd be a lot of work to change everything. And lets not forget, there always needs to be a love interest, so you'd need the addition of another character.

Let's just say Short Roundette makes everything too complicated.
 

roundshort

Active member
TOD was awesome and as good as Raiders, so no need for any changes. Thank you very much. Now as far as Last & the other one.... rom for man many improvemnts
 

RKORadio

Guest
I know about the TV show Embassy for 2 reasons - one it was on the "Flags of the world" site on fictional countries flags and ive seen the show on old VHS copies

Besides you are talking to someone that could read when they were two
 

kongisking

Active member
Spurlock said:
How about Willie, would the character have been better if she was a he, and Short Round was a Short Roundette? Honestly that's the only way I could imagine Short Round being a girl would make sense. That way they'd still contrast each other.

But of course if Willie was a boy, they'd need to change her from a singer and dancer to something less... ga- out of place. And it'd be a lot of work to change everything. And lets not forget, there always needs to be a love interest, so you'd need the addition of another character.

Let's just say Short Roundette makes everything too complicated.

Agreed, the film is a mess as it is.

But still a gloriously badass mess! :cool:
 

The Drifter

New member
RKORadio said:
I know about the TV show Embassy for 2 reasons - one it was on the "Flags of the world" site on fictional countries flags and ive seen the show on old VHS copies

Besides you are talking to someone that could read when they were two

Isn't that just wonderful! :rolleyes:
But, you still haven't gave reason why you continue to skirt around these issues that you bring up. You sling accusations around, and when someone disagrees, you ignore the very issues that you presented. What gives?

kongisking said:
Agreed, the film is a mess as it is.
How is the film a mess as it is? I'n not saying you're wrong, as it's your opinion, but I'm just curious.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Spurlock said:
How about Willie, would the character have been better if she was a he, and Short Round was a Short Roundette? Honestly that's the only way I could imagine Short Round being a girl would make sense. That way they'd still contrast each other.

But of course if Willie was a boy, they'd need to change her from a singer and dancer to something less... ga- out of place. And it'd be a lot of work to change everything. And lets not forget, there always needs to be a love interest, so you'd need the addition of another character.

Let's just say Short Roundette makes everything too complicated.

roundshort said:
TOD was awesome and as good as Raiders, so no need for any changes. Thank you very much.

How could the near perfection of TOD be improved upon?


A page from the 1983 Story Conference, long thought lost forever, turned up unexpectedly when a sofa, once owned by George Lucas, was being broken up for firewood.

While he wasn't thinking of changing Short Round to a girl he was considering some major alterations. You have to remember that at this time Harrison Ford was still in shock over the teddy bears in ROTJ, and therefore unable to fully commit to the role of Indiana Jones again.

That single page, written as prospective promotional material, gives us a tantalizing glimpse of what might have been...


Indiana Jones and the Temple of Poon.

The man with two Willies is back!

Follow Indy (Sandra Bernhard), his hairy sidekick, Big Willie (Ron Jeremy), and hermaphrodite night club singer Little Willie (Michael Jackson) as they venture into a strange land where nothing is as it seems.

Watch in horror, as one by one, they turn their backs on the evil linga-wielding shaman, Sam Ram (Ben Kingsley).

Will the nightmare never end for our intrepid trio?


And don?t miss Indiana Jones and the Last of the Cosmic Cheerleaders, coming to a video rental store near you!


So, when you think what might have been, a precocious little martial arts Goonie wasn't such a bad idea after all.
 

Mickiana

Well-known member
kongisking said:
Agreed, the film is a mess as it is.

But still a gloriously badass mess! :cool:

I don't think Spurlock implied at all that ToD was a mess. How did you read that into his comment? Spurlock was commenting on 'what ifs' in terms of changing everyone's gender, not on the film as it actually was.

As to the thread question, do we presume that Short Round still did and said everything exactly the same but was merely a girl instead of a boy? There was nothing particularly 'male' in what he did or said.
 

Spurlock

New member
Yeah, I said the other things you'd need to change if Short Round was a girl would create a hot mess. The actual film isn't bad.

Now that I've considered it, I think Short Roundette would help balance the weak and whiny Willie, showing that not all women are as useless as her.
 

kongisking

Active member
Mickiana said:
I don't think Spurlock implied at all that ToD was a mess. How did you read that into his comment? Spurlock was commenting on 'what ifs' in terms of changing everyone's gender, not on the film as it actually was.

As to the thread question, do we presume that Short Round still did and said everything exactly the same but was merely a girl instead of a boy? There was nothing particularly 'male' in what he did or said.

I probably worded that badly. I meant I agreed that the film needs no further work, and followed up with my opinion that the film was a mess already. Shouldn't have had those comments come right after the other.

As for me thinking it's a mess, I meant as in how it packs in so much, develops so little, and has a number of regrettable creative choices (I may think the gross-out dinner is hilarious to this day, but I still acknowledge how it is fundamentally rather offensive, and do feel guilty that I find it so amusing when the racism is so obvious).

But it's a testament to the skill of Berg and Vic Armstrong's stuntwork that the finale is so damn thrilling and manly that I forgive the problems of the first two acts completely whenever I get to that point in the running time. Proof that a great third act can save an acceptable-but-not-great movie.
 

Pale Horse

Moderator
Staff member
Meh, for what it's worth, I'll throw in a throwaway and suggest a tone similar to that of Leon and Matilda in the Professional...that might have made TOD a different film...
 

Dr. Gonzo

New member
Pale Horse said:
Meh, for what it's worth, I'll throw in a throwaway and suggest a tone similar to that of Leon and Matilda in the Professional...that might have made TOD a different film...

Good flick... and started out Natalie Portman if I'm not mistaken.
 

Stoo

Well-known member
RKORadio said:
As it is, the only women we really see in the story are "greatful" mothers who are overjoyed when Indy returns their children to them, and Willie's back up singers.
While I get your point, RKO, there are actually more women than just those; the lady guests at the club, the cigarette waitresses, the Kathak dancers, the palace singer and the sailor's squeeze. None of them are tough but the film doesn't require any of them to be so in order to make it better.
Drifter said:
I doubt that thought would've entered most people's minds. Is that how some people think? That a grown man can't be around a small girl without accusations being slung around?
Unfortunately, yes, some people do. A few years ago, a pair of Raven members were talking about a perverse relationship between Shorty & Indy, including sick comments about Shorty picking Indy's pocket (and I will not post a link to the thread). A little girl sidekick would very likely be fodder for similar remarks, as Finn already stated.
kongisking said:
I dunno, you saying that having a kick-ass young girl sidekick is 'unrealistic' sounds sort of sexist (not saying you are, just saying that's how it sounds).
Forbidden Eye is right. Now, of course, Indy films aren't grounded in realism but it would be terribly unrealistic for ToD to have a "kick-ass young girl sidekick" and saying so is not sexist, for a number of reasons. To start, how many 10-year-old girls in 1935 would be capable of beating up men?
Toht's Arm said:
Alas, I can't imagine that would have happened back in 1984. Representation of women in Hollywood action movies wasn't too crash hot back then (though I'm sure someone could dig out some examples to contradict that claim.)
There are some examples of "kick-ass" women in Hollywood action films before 1984 but, you're right, they were certainly nowhere near as common as they are today. I won't bother mentioning these women characters because we're talking about a pre-pubescent action girl, which would have been absurd.
RKORadio said:
Well a grown man certainly can't admit to liking Shirley Temple films the way a grown woman can. It's a factor.
Well, I can admit that I happen to love one Shirley Temple film in particular and have seen it many, many times. I even own 2 versions (one black & white, one colourized). According to what you believe, maybe I should hide them in a secret place, for fear that folks might get the wrong impression. In this context, the TITLE could cause even further embarrassment!:eek: (Hint: It's based on a Rudyard Kipling story.)

As a young female, yourself, *YOU* might think that a little girl would've made ToD better but you're also implying that any adult males who'd like the movie would be "suspect" by the "general public perception". So the change would be better for whom? You or them?:confused:
RKORadio said:
A kick-ass Asian child Princess
How oxymoron-ish. "Kick-ass" and "child princess" are a contradiction of terms.:p

Being a teenager when "Doom" was released, I wasn't pleased with the fact that the sidekick was a little boy and I would've strongly disliked a young girl even more (and still would today). In my opinion, it's an awful idea.(n)
 

Vance

New member
Hmmm... I think that having Willie around would have negated too many issues with "Short Round" being a girl. The flaws in the character (being a bit too stereotypical) wouldn't have changed much, and the strength of the character didn't require him to be a boy. It's a wash.

Temple of Doom just needed someone else to put the final film together (recut some of the pacing, shorten the 'torture/possessed' sequence, put back some backstory dialog), and someone with the balls to tell George and Stephen "no" from time to time.
 

Henry W Jones

New member
kongisking said:
I probably worded that badly. I meant I agreed that the film needs no further work, and followed up with my opinion that the film was a mess already. Shouldn't have had those comments come right after the other.

As for me thinking it's a mess, I meant as in how it packs in so much, develops so little, and has a number of regrettable creative choices (I may think the gross-out dinner is hilarious to this day, but I still acknowledge how it is fundamentally rather offensive, and do feel guilty that I find it so amusing when the racism is so obvious).

But it's a testament to the skill of Berg and Vic Armstrong's stuntwork that the finale is so damn thrilling and manly that I forgive the problems of the first two acts completely whenever I get to that point in the running time. Proof that a great third act can save an acceptable-but-not-great movie.

How is the racism obvious? Where does the film state people from India eat that way? Wasn't that supposed to be the point even though it wasn't directly said that something was off in the palace?
 

Mickiana

Well-known member
kongisking said:
As for me thinking it's a mess, I meant as in how it packs in so much, develops so little, and has a number of regrettable creative choices (I may think the gross-out dinner is hilarious to this day, but I still acknowledge how it is fundamentally rather offensive, and do feel guilty that I find it so amusing when the racism is so obvious).

Well, just lift that burden of guilt off your shoulders, Kong, because there is no racism in that film. You are misreading the film. Yes, it was meant to offend and entertain at the same time, like black humour does. A bit of PC gets lost in the process too, which is not a bad thing.

Humans have a morbid fascination with icky things as well as with things that normal societal boundaries may deem within or without good taste/acceptable and so on. But it was not intended or accidentally racist.

It was about bad guys (not Indians) doing disgusting and outrageous things, at the dinner table and in the sacrificial temple. Remember in the beginning, there were bad Chinese guys? Remember there were good ones too? IJ is about the Good Guy versus the Bad Guy.

Sorry, this is off topic and dealt with in other threads. On topic: Leave Shorty as a boy. I don't know if they could have had a girl being whipped alongside Indy. That would have been nudging those boundaries a bit too much maybe.
 

kongisking

Active member
Mickiana said:
Well, just lift that burden of guilt off your shoulders, Kong, because there is no racism in that film. You are misreading the film. Yes, it was meant to offend and entertain at the same time, like black humour does. A bit of PC gets lost in the process too, which is not a bad thing.

Humans have a morbid fascination with icky things as well as with things that normal societal boundaries may deem within or without good taste/acceptable and so on. But it was not intended or accidentally racist.

It was about bad guys (not Indians) doing disgusting and outrageous things, at the dinner table and in the sacrificial temple. Remember in the beginning, there were bad Chinese guys? Remember there were good ones too? IJ is about the Good Guy versus the Bad Guy.

Hmph. I don't like being called out on my naivete...:mad:

...kidding. Your point makes sense. Thanks for setting me straight. :hat:
 

Kooshmeister

New member
Temple of Doom is just fine as it is, thanks. Well, okay, so the many deleted scenes might've improved the plot flow and clarified some story points, but the characters are fine. Yes, even Willie. Sink me, but I like her. She cracks me up. She didn't used to, but she's grown on me. A girl Short Round, though, seems like just a kind of odd thing to think up.
 

kongisking

Active member
Kooshmeister said:
Temple of Doom is just fine as it is, thanks. Well, okay, so the many deleted scenes might've improved the plot flow and clarified some story points, but the characters are fine. Yes, even Willie. Sink me, but I like her. She cracks me up. She didn't used to, but she's grown on me. A girl Short Round, though, seems like just a kind of odd thing to think up.

Then how about age? Imagine Shorty as a teenager. He'd probably have an unfortunate crush on Willie, then...love triangle! :sick:
 
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