Doing Hitler salute in Germany

Montana Smith

Active member
As an ignorant child, I too gave the Hitlergruß in Germany - at Europa Park to be precise. I blamed Freddie Starr, as he was popular at the time for his Hitler impersonation routine.
 

DaFedora

New member
What a maccabre topic.

To put it this way: as I interned in Paris (spring 2010) I discussed the politically sensitve case of Israel as a nation-state with a fellow German intern.. She openly spoke that many Germans just don't dare to travel to Israel because they would be harrassed, offended or risk getting any shrewd/negative remarks at their heads over their ancestors or their home state. Especially in this context, it's highly sensitive. In Germany rarely anyone dares to speak out or talk down on the jew classes. Whether that's a good thing, I'm not sure since it is one thing to be antisemitic (i.e. blaming an entire religious class of people) and having comments or an own opinion about the role of Judaism and the jewish people in global politics etc.

I certainly know there's a range of current-day Jewish families who, because of their family history or conviction, will refuse to set foot on German soil in their entire lifetime. Out of principle.

Nevertheless, she also remarked (translated): "In many ways, for foreign relations that imply anything related to security, defence, race and religion... it's no picknick being German". Some scars of history don't heal at all.

I would personally slap anyone (not taller than me however) asap who I see giving the Hitler salute, regardless of the context. I would also say: would you be laughing still if *I* humiliated and gassed you and your next to kin?
 

davidraphael

New member
Firstly, as already suggested, if someone walked around Germany saying the following...

"Hie Hitler! Hail the Fuhr!.... Hie Hilter and long live the Fuhr!"

...they wouldn't be understood because it makes no sense in German.

Secondly, it doesn't make sense to say 'long live someone' if they're, well...dead. You kinda missed the boat on that one.

When they did get it right they'd be perceived as ignorant, stupid, insensitive or perhaps all three. And in a worse case scenario they'd be breaking the law.

Highlighting what you perceive to be Hitler's 'valid' acts does not justify any kind of endorsement of Hitler. Any atrocities outweigh anything else.
Besides, before you start hailing Hitler's economic moves go and read a proper history book (so says my German wife who teaches culture and history at degree level, so there)

Before you consider your bandana I suggest you take a tour of Dachau and Auschwitz.

@Monkey: It's hard to know where to start correcting your erroneous statements...
 

Montana Smith

Active member
davidraphael said:
@Monkey: It's hard to know where to start correcting your erroneous statements...

raiders-of-the-lost-ark-1981--14-630-75.jpg


The monkey picked a bad date quite some ago.
 
You can't even do it under the guise of an evil character for entertainment as JBL, the wrestler, learned when he goosestepped and saluted as a way to garner sympathy for his opponent.

Here's the video and a brief article about the 2004 incident.
 

davidraphael

New member
It's a fine line.

I'm not especially pro-political-correctness, so I think there are ways of employing Nazi symbolism (or, for that matter, any contentious iconography or subject) in art, serious drama, satire or parody. It all depends on the context.

These motifs should be used carefully and with sensitivity.

Many people don't have that kind of skill, so they should leave well alone.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
davidraphael said:
It's a fine line.

I'm not especially pro-political-correctness, so I think there are ways of employing Nazi symbolism (or, for that matter, any contentious iconography or subject) in art, serious drama, satire or parody. It all depends on the context.

These motifs should be used carefully and with sensitivity.

Many people don't have that kind of skill, so they should leave well alone.

Just don't let history get buried to the point that children think of it as something mythical, but instead as something living and being repeated at any moment somewhere in the world.

It's no coincidence that Arabs daubed swastikas on the walls of an Israeli embassy. The abused are not immune from mimicking the crimes of their former abusers.

The Nazis weren't a special case. Not worse than the Soviets. Or the worst excesses of the British Empire - which eventually gave the world the modern concept of the concentration camp during the Boer war.

The media shouldn't shrink from presenting the uncomfortable truth, nor should it belittle it. Maybe that's why Disney doesn't put swastikas on their toys any more - because the toys represented media that did belittle the truth. By 'belittle' I mean that media consigns the 'Nazi spirit' to a specific, long ago point of history. It is, however, alive and well under many guises in both the east and west. It can be undermined by humour as well as by humanitarian argument.

In the case of Raiders I'd argue there was a fine line. We see a pulp personification of evil, and a gross mishandling of history, but at least it wasn't afraid to show a flawed hero. It wasn't an entirely crass flag-waving piece of propaganda.
 
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Montana Smith said:
The Nazis weren't a special case. Not worse than the Soviets. Or the worst excesses of the British Empire - which eventually gave the world the modern concept of the concentration camp during the Boer war.
Sometimes I wonder Monsieur, whether people have that clearly in mind.

Montana Smith said:
The media shouldn't shrink from presenting the uncomfortable truth, nor should it belittle it.
Well in the free market it's shock that sells advertising...and it's all about the almighty dollar/euro/rupee...(maybe not so mighty these days).

Montana Smith said:
Maybe that's why Disney doesn't put swastikas on their toys any more...
Even Lucas danced the line reagrding toys for tots that parents would buy. The headless Jango didn't inclue a head, why there wasn't more outcry against a pregnant Padme "action" figure was and wasn't surprising. Where was the birthing table and twins accesories?

Are kids really playing witha pregnant Padme? Where's our wedding Marion and Indy with chapel playset?

Swastikas are easy, and I wouldn't expect them on the Lego Flying Wing, though I would expect them on a model kit.

Montana Smith said:
In the case of Raiders I'd argue there was a fine line. We see a pulp personification of evil, and a gross mishandling of history, but at least it wasn't afraid to show a flawed hero. It wasn't an entirely crass flag-waving piece of propaganda.
Gross? Really? The Ark acted exactly as it should have!
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Rocket Surgeon said:
Sometimes I wonder Monsieur, whether people have that clearly in mind.

...

Swastikas are easy, and I wouldn't expect them on the Lego Flying Wing, though I would expect them on a model kit.

The swastika is demonized to the point where it is all but forbidden but for special occasions. The Hammer and Sickle is, however, used far more freely, though Stalin?s regime was just as evil as Hitler?s, and lasted for longer.

To the victors go the spoils of history.

Rocket Surgeon said:
Gross? Really? The Ark acted exactly as it should have!

Nazi gods. I hate those guys!
 

davidraphael

New member
Yes, the swastika has been demonised (which in some ways is a shame for Buddhism, from which the 3rd Reich stole it -and flipped it). Indeed, Stalin killed millions. There are a list of human atrocities committed by states and individuals as long as your arm.

The simple and plain difference is that the nazi swastika has come to be highly symbolic of holocaust atrocities. The hammer and sickle has not - it is generally more symbolic of communism and sovietism as a whole (though of course Stalin's crimes are included in that)

A symbol works like a word. We, the people, give words and symbols their cultural meanings and the weight of their significance. It's the same with profane and some race or sexually related words. It might not seem fair that a word has developed so much meaning and weight. But that's just the way it is. That's what we did with it as a culture; that's how the meaning of the word and its cultural weight evolved.

This leaves only one question. What reason do we have to undo or justify a less negative connotation of a swastika? I can't think of one strong enough to outweigh its current status.

The swastika, of course, like any other word or symbol will evolve with time and come to mean new things. Or there will, at least, be shifts.

The key is being aware of what words and symbols mean to others and act out of respect and well-informed reason.
Yes, there will always be some people who get upset about the use of a word or symbol and there's nothing wrong with challenging a convention, as long as it's for the right reasons.
Provocation just for the sheer sake of it lacks integrity and, ultimately, power.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
davidraphael said:
Yes, the swastika has been demonised (which in some ways is a shame for Buddhism, from which the 3rd Reich stole it -and flipped it). Indeed, Stalin killed millions. There are a list of human atrocities committed by states and individuals as long as your arm.

The simple and plain difference is that the nazi swastika has come to be highly symbolic of holocaust atrocities. The hammer and sickle has not - it is generally more symbolic of communism and sovietism as a whole (though of course Stalin's crimes are included in that)

Murder is murder and rape is rape, whoever the victims are.

When Hitler and Stalin divided Poland between themselves, Hitler took the Jews, and Stalin took the intelligentsia, aided by Jews wearing red armbands.

The horror of the holocaust was enough to make the division of Palestine an acceptable act after the war.

In hindsight that act stored up a long-term problem in the Middle-East, but the swastika was already demonized. While the Soviet Union, who had been raping their way west under orders, sat in judgement at Nuremberg.

To the victors go the spoils, and that's the way of history.

The endeavour was to ensure that what happened under Hitler's rule could never be repeated. But as you wrote, "There are a list of human atrocities committed by states and individuals as long as your arm."

Human immorality is more than just a crooked cross.
 
In Greece the Hitlergruß is nasty enough for a lifetime ban from a sport!

460x.jpg


AEK Athens midfielder Giorgos Katidis raises his hand in a Nazi style salute, as his teammate Roger Guerreiro looks on, as he celebrates scoring the winning goal in a Greek league game against Veria in Athens' Olympic Stadium, Saturday, March 16, 2013. AEK won the game 2-1. There has been no official reaction yet to the gesture, which has raised a storm of protest on the Internet. (AP Photo/INTIME)

ATHENS, Greece (AP) — AEK Athens midfielder Giorgos Katidis has earned rebukes from politicians, fellow athletes and fans after giving a Nazi salute in celebration of a goal he scored in the Greek league.

Photographs show him giving a Nazi salute after scoring the go-ahead goal in the 84th minute over visiting Veria on Saturday. In one photo, Katidis' Brazilian-born teammate, Roger Guerreiro, looks at him with an expression of astonishment.

The 20-year-old Katidis pleaded ignorance of the meaning of his gesture — right arm extended and hand straightened. He claimed on his Twitter account that he detests fascism.

AEK's German coach Ewald Lienen, said the player doesn't have an "idea about politics."

Life ban from Greece team for Nazi salute player

ATHENS, Greece (AP) -- Greek soccer player Giorgos Katidis has been banned from his national team for life after giving a Nazi salute while celebrating a goal in the topflight league.

Greece's soccer federation said Sunday in a statement that the AEK Athens midfielder's gesture "is a deep insult to all victims of Nazi brutality."

The 20-year-old Katidis gave a Nazi salute after scoring the go-ahead goal Saturday in AEK's 2-1 victory over Veria in the Greek league. He pleaded ignorance of the meaning of his gesture - right arm extended and hand straightened. He claimed on his Twitter account that he detests fascism.

AEK and the Greek league are considering separate sanctions. AEK fans have demanded Katidis' dismissal from the team.

Katidis has played for Greek national junior teams but not the senior side.
 

WilliamBoyd8

Active member
This scene from the 1947 film "The Red Pony" showing American children doing a Nazi salute
really creeped me out when I saw it on television in the 1960's:

post_redpony_salute_01.jpg


And guess who the teacher is?

post_redpony_salute_02.jpg


I know, there are quibbles about "that is how things were in those days",
but to a kid those explanations meant nothing.

:)
 

Gear

New member
WilliamBoyd8 said:
This scene from the 1947 film "The Red Pony" showing American children doing a Nazi salute
really creeped me out when I saw it on television in the 1960's:

post_redpony_salute_01.jpg

An up-turned palm "Nazi salute"?
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Gear said:
An up-turned palm "Nazi salute"?

WilliamBoyd8 said:
To a kid watching television in the 1960's, with no technology for freezing frames, that looked like a Nazi salute.


The similarity was no accident...

IMDB Trivia - The Red Pony (1949)

In one of the school scenes, the children say the Pledge of Allegiance with their right arms extended, pointed toward the flag. This was the Bellamy Salute suggested by Francis Bellamy, who wrote the original version of the Pledge. Due to its similarity to the Nazi and Fascist salute, President Franklin D. Roosevelt changed the position to hand-over-the-heart. This was later codified into law in 1942.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0041792/trivia?ref_=tt_trv_trv


The Bellamy salute is the salute described by Francis Bellamy to accompany the American Pledge of Allegiance, which he had authored. During the period when it was used with the Pledge of Allegiance, it was sometimes known as the "flag salute". During the 1920s and 1930s, Italian fascists and Nazis adopted salutes which were similar in form, resulting in controversy over the use of the Bellamy salute in the United States. It was officially replaced by the hand-over-heart salute when Congress amended the Flag Code on December 22, 1942.

The inventor of the saluting gesture was James B. Upham, junior partner and editor of The Youth's Companion.[1] Bellamy recalled Upham, upon reading the pledge, came into the posture of the salute, snapped his heels together, and said "Now up there is the flag; I come to salute; as I say 'I pledge allegiance to my flag,' I stretch out my right hand and keep it raised while I say the stirring words that follow."[1]

The Bellamy salute was first demonstrated on October 12, 1892 according to Bellamy's published instructions for the "National School Celebration of Columbus Day":


The initial civilian salute was replaced with a hand-on-heart gesture, followed by the extension of the arm as described by Bellamy.

In the 1920s, Italian fascists adopted the Roman salute to symbolize their claim to have revitalized Italy on the model of ancient Rome. This was quickly copied by the German Nazis, creating the Nazi salute. The similarity to the Bellamy salute led to confusion, especially during World War II. From 1939 until the attack on Pearl Harbor, detractors of Americans who argued against intervention in World War II produced propaganda using the salute to lessen those Americans' reputations. Among the anti-interventionist Americans was aviation pioneer Charles Lindbergh. Supporters of Lindbergh's views would claim that Lindbergh did not support Adolf Hitler, and that pictures of him appearing to do the Nazi salute were actually pictures of him using the Bellamy salute. In his Pulitzer prize winning biography Lindbergh, author A. Scott Berg explains that interventionist propagandists would photograph Lindbergh and other isolationists using this salute from an angle that left out the American flag, so it would be indistinguishable from the Hitler salute to observers.

In order to prevent further confusion or controversy, US Congress instituted the hand-over-the-heart gesture as the salute to be rendered by civilians during the Pledge of Allegiance and the national anthem in the United States, instead of the Bellamy salute.[2] This was done when Congress amended the Flag Code on December 22, 1942.[3][4]

There was initially some resistance to dropping the Bellamy salute, for example from the Daughters of the American Revolution,[5] but this opposition died down quickly following Nazi Germany's declaration of war against the United States on December 11, 1941.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellamy_salute
 
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