Is it just me or do I like least of all, LC?

Sakis

TR.N Staff Member
Temple Raider said:
Yes but KOTCS at least differs things considerably whereas TLC tries to parallel Raiders in a lot of ways and IMO too much so. The Nazis again, another Christian artifact, the desert setting, etc. it has a very deja vu feeling compared with the others.

I can't say that I don't understand your point, it has solid basis. The Christian artifact we all know how it came to be, even Spielberg didn't want it but it served the plot brilliantly. As for Kingdom, it differs minimal. Too bad we spent two decades with no Indy adventure, we could have to much more to talk about.
 

Temple Raider

Active member
Thing with TLC is that of all the Indy films, it's the only one with a "been there, done that" feeling. Raiders is the first and both TOD and KOTCS both feel unique and different, even if to some they weren't successful at what they attempted (I feel TOD was and KOTCS less so but still more often than not). TLC very much feels like it's trying to be Raiders 2.0 and when I watch it I can't help but think there's so much I'd do differently. The element of Indy's Dad was a great one though and did a ton to elevate the film. In some ways it almost feels like a different movie when Jones, Sr. gets involved.

It's definitely unfortunate we didn't get anything new with Indy during the 90s and earlier 2000s (barring the Young Indy TV show, of course). I think there was room for a new film or two during that timeframe.
 

John Bechet

New member
Temple Raider said:
The element of Indy's Dad was a great one though and did a ton to elevate the film. In some ways it almost feels like a different movie when Jones, Sr. gets involved.

When I read Connery saying that Henry Sr was originally a much smaller part, it gave me the impression that the character was first conceived to have a function similar to Aber in Raiders - a person from Indy's past who has already begun the search and is in trouble. (Oxley is obviously the equivalent in KOTCS.)

So had they not expanded the role of Henry Sr to win Connery's involvement, Last Crusade might have resembled Raiders even more. As it stands, the Indy and Henry Sr scenes are the highlights of movie and - it should be noted - they have no equivalent in either Raiders or Temple.
 

Sakis

TR.N Staff Member
Jones Sr. was the grail and that was actually a big introduction that has been cloned in many films since that. Along with Indy's character development making it much too personal and different although following the same pattern. If you put Raiders and Crusade side by side they look similar but the truth is they are not.
 

Temple Raider

Active member
Still, the basic similarities and parallels they share are certainly there and pretty undeniable. There's enough that's different true, but still, TLC retreads much of Raiders and is the only one of the post-Raiders films to do so.
 

micsteam

New member
I have to say the first three movies LC was my least favorite for years, although not a bad movie at all just that it was my least favorite. I'm not ignoring KOTCS ( 4th out of all of them IMHO) but staying with the thread. The 16 yr old micsteam in 1989 I felt the item of which Indy was going after was not as strong as the Ark or Shankara Stones, I was looking for another Ark of the Covenant item. Well older and wiser 45 yr old micsteam has knowledge of the " cup that caught the blood of Christ", plus The Crusades history and other interpretations of the " Holy Grail " I'm over that issue, it's very interesting. I left this movie alone for a long time, it wasn't until 2003 when I really got back into Indy and more recently like the last two-three years that I really have a much better appreciation of this movie. First of all it is really well done.. great acting by everybody.. but Connery was exceptional !! This is definitely an Indiana Jones movie !! My negatives ( not strong but noticeable) the Nazis weren't as bad as in Raiders ( not as threatening or ominous) and I didn't like that they made Brody almost a buffoon. Overall I love it !! I think I can understand why people are back and forth with ranking it second or third between Temple. :hat:
 

micsteam

New member
Last Crusade is not a Raiders retread, sorry I don't agree. There are some similarities but not a retread. There was much more humor in LC, it felt looser plus what I've mentioned before.
 

Temple Raider

Active member
The increased humor IMO was a mistake. The other films are all humorous sure, even TOD, but TLC is the only one that goes for straight-up comedy and slapstick. For me this really undermined the tension and made the movie not have the same feeling of danger and foreboding as the others. Plus the villains in it were the dullest of the series for me.
 

Sakis

TR.N Staff Member
Temple Raider said:
The increased humor IMO was a mistake. The other films are all humorous sure, even TOD, but TLC is the only one that goes for straight-up comedy and slapstick. For me this really undermined the tension and made the movie not have the same feeling of danger and foreboding as the others. Plus the villains in it were the dullest of the series for me.

Truth is pure adventure films is a lost form. Now they are trying to fit everything in a film and the outcome is never pleasant.
 

Dr.Jonesy

Well-known member
The Last Crusade could be accused of feeling the most dull of the four.

Very same-y, bland color palette, a bit droll.
 

Temple Raider

Active member
Sakis said:
Truth is pure adventure films is a lost form. Now they are trying to fit everything in a film and the outcome is never pleasant.


That is sadly true. You don't see much in terms of them these days and what you do see ironically comes off as an Indy knock-off more than anything.

One thing about TLC that I find a bit disappointing is it lacks the pulpy style the first two both had in spades, especially TOD. ROTLA and TOD both feel very pulpy and much like the adventure serials that inspired them, just bigger-budgeted and better-made. TOD also has a wonderful EC Comics-style with it visuals, colors and darker style. TLC for some reason doesn't have that same pulpy style and KOTCS didn't really either, although it evoked it moreso than TLC.
 

Sakis

TR.N Staff Member
Dr.Jonesy said:
The Last Crusade could be accused of feeling the most dull of the four.

Very same-y, bland color palette, a bit droll.

The colours in Crusade are far better. 8 years in cinema evolution made it so. Raiders is the one that had to be changed in the blu-ray edition for visual consistency.

Temple Raider said:
One thing about TLC that I find a bit disappointing is it lacks the pulpy style the first two both had in spades, especially TOD.

This is true also. I hoped that Kingdom would be a return to the roots but it was a modernday hollywood tent pole. Maybe the next one should be filmed by Tarantino, he captured the old 70s feel in Death Proof greatly. Ok, I'm just kidding on this. But on second thought, I'm thinking of Indy in a car chase with a dusted 1968 Dodge Charger.... hmmmmm. Alright, snap out of this!
 

Temple Raider

Active member
I'd love for Indy 5 to really re-capture that vintage pulp feeling both ROTLA and TOD had. TOD in particular also has a distinct EC Comics style with it's style and colors, very evocative of something like a 1950s-era Tales From The Crypt comic book, which was appropriate given the story and setting. It'd be great for Indy 5 to do something akin to that.
 

Stoo

Well-known member
Sakis said:
But on second thought, I'm thinking of Indy in a car chase with a dusted 1968 Dodge Charger.... hmmmmm. Alright, snap out of this!
"Indiana Jones and the Dukes of Hazzard"? :D

Until 2008, "Crusade" had always been my least favourite because it was a retread of "Raiders". I saw it the least in the theatres (only 3 times) and watched it the least on VHS. It wasn't until joining The Raven in 2005 that I discovered how highly it ranked amongst younger fans so I dove into it more with the DVD. The ranking still remained the same.

It's just too goofy. (Ex. the Jones' exchanging glances with the German pilot as his plane passes their car in the tunnel. Awful scene and just as bad as stuff in "Skull". Made me groan in the theatre and still hate it to this day.)

Now, I've watched an insane amount of old adventure movies & serials and can say with certainty that, of the first 3 films, "Crusade" borrows the least from the oldies. Much of it is more of an homage to "Raiders" than anything else. It's a slapstick version of the original with the booby traps at the end instead of the beginning.
 

Sakis

TR.N Staff Member
Stoo said:
"Indiana Jones and the Dukes of Hazzard"? :D

Made me groan in the theatre and still hate it to this day.)

More likely Indiana Jones and the Tough Bullitt Chase kind of thing. :hat:

How old were you when Crusade was released?
 

Stoo

Well-known member
Sakis said:
More likely Indiana Jones and the Tough Bullitt Chase kind of thing. :hat:
"Bullitt" was a '68 Ford Mustang, though. AWESOME car chase.(y) (I did a Segway tour in San Fran a couple of years ago and recognized some of the streets, especially the corner that McQueen slams into and loses a hubcap!)

"Crusade" hit the silver screen when I was a fresh 22-year-old. :eek: Maybe I wasn't too pie-eyed & impressionable then as I was when seeing "Raiders" at 14. Indy 3 was an unexpected disappointment and it taught me a lesson (just like "Return of the Jedi" did): Don't get high hopes when it comes to movie sequels.
 

Sakis

TR.N Staff Member
Stoo said:
"Bullitt" was a '68 Ford Mustang, though. AWESOME car chase.(y) (I did a Segway tour in San Fran a couple of years ago and recognized some of the streets, especially the corner that McQueen slams into and loses a hubcap!)

"Crusade" hit the silver screen when I was a fresh 22-year-old. :eek: Maybe I wasn't too pie-eyed & impressionable then as I was when seeing "Raiders" at 14. Indy 3 was an unexpected disappointment and it taught me a lesson (just like "Return of the Jedi" did): Don't get high hopes when it comes to movie sequels.

Bullitt had a 1968 Ford Mustang vs a 1968 Dodge Charger but to be honest I prefer the 1969 model most, in black matte.

I was 14 when I saw Crusade and was my first Indy film in theater. The very first I saw was Temple in tv a year before. Raiders second, during a summer night in an old, small, black&white tv screen that blacked out right before the opening of the Ark. :sick: I saw that scene years later. Truth is I never appreciated Raiders because it took me a while to watch it properly. Still, for me the one is the original, the other is the best.
 

Temple Raider

Active member
Stoo said:
It's just too goofy. (Ex. the Jones' exchanging glances with the German pilot as his plane passes their car in the tunnel. Awful scene and just as bad as stuff in "Skull". Made me groan in the theatre and still hate it to this day.)

Now, I've watched an insane amount of old adventure movies & serials and can say with certainty that, of the first 3 films, "Crusade" borrows the least from the oldies. Much of it is more of an homage to "Raiders" than anything else. It's a slapstick version of the original with the booby traps at the end instead of the beginning.


Very much agreed. TLC is still enjoyable but you highlighted so many of my own issues with it. Way too goofy and slapsticky, and very much feeling like a cartoon version of the first film. At times it almost feels like a Three Stooges version of Indy. Audiences may have enjoyed the Nazis as the villains again but for me it felt tired to use them again so soon after TOD showed Indy doesn't always need them. I mentioned before how of all the films it feels the least pulpy and doesn't have the same adventure serial feel the others do. You're so right about the plane in the tunnel scene, when you look at TLC you see that it has just as much silly and over the top stuff in it as Crystal Skull.

People always lag to rag on how OTT the raft stunt in TOD is and of course the fridge in KOTCS and I'm not arguing both are extremely outlandish. But people give a pass to TLC's equally OTT, silly and/or implausible things, such as:


- Young Indy getting his fedora, chin scar, whip, fear of snakes and love of adventure all in the same afternoon.

- Young Indy escaping off of a moving train using a magic box he had no knowledge at all of how to use.

- The "Scottish Lord" disguise. Sorry but Indy isn't a character I like to see played for laughs.

- The revolving fireplace.

- Indy tumbling down the steps.

- The plane in the tunnel.

- The pen ink squirting in the eye.

- The Centuries-old Grail Knight (he's been alive for hundreds of years guarding the Holy Grail in a secret cavern?!).


And then there's the many cringe-inducing moments TLC's buffoonish versions of Brody and Sallah have. This movie for me was such a character assassination of those two. The way people tend to feel about Willie and Short Round in TOD is precisely how I feel about TLC's versions of Brody and Sallah.

If it seems like I dislike TLC, I don't. Not at all. But of all the Indy films it's the one I take most issue with and the only one I find diminishes the more I watch it. A more slapsticky, cartoony version of Indy just isn't my preference.
 

micsteam

New member
Not to get too off topic, it was the Charger that hit the curb (and the camera filming it) and lost the hub cap. Obviously I'm a huge Indy fan but I'm a HUGE Bullitt and Steve McQueen fan, I could tell you things (especially about the cars) that you've never read about in the magazines or saw on tv shows. Just saying. I do understand everybody's opinions though about LC, I let go of a lot of my misgivings about the movie and decided to just watch the movie and try to enjoy it. The photography is excellent ( it was Slocomb's last movie and then retired), the musical score is excellent and is very rich ( look at the soundtrack and how many individual scores compared to the first 2 movies), I mean there are perks to this movie and let's be honest it's a hell of a lot better than KOTCS. IMHO :hat:
 
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