What's up with Spielberg and Kaminski?

Jones Disciple

Active member
Sankara- I have been reading your posts for quite sometime. You obviously had really high expectations that were never going to be reached by this film. I have good news though and I mean this with sincerity. I would suspect from your continual posting of hate towards ?Skull? that your expectations will be so low for Indy 5 that you will come here and claim that it is better than ?Raiders? after viewing it. At least I hope that is what happens for your sake. I have no doubt you?re a huge Indiana Jones fan and it is too bad you can not enjoy this last one.
 

Sankara

Guest
@james
No, these polls are indicators. According to these indikators and to the critics "Skull" is the worst of the Indy Movies.

@Jones Disciple
No, I don't had high expectations. I had the expectation that the new movie is as good as the first three movies. Otherwise there was no need for this movie. I mean nobody want a lousy part four after a perfekt ending of the saga in part three?
 

Major West

Member
Sankara said:
@Jones Disciple
No, I don't had high expectations. I had the expectation that the new movie is as good as the first three movies. Otherwise there was no need for this movie. I mean nobody want a lousy part four after a perfekt ending of the saga in part three?

I think it's time to accept the 4th movie as an official Indiana Jones movie.

Feel the love.
 

Sankara

Guest
@Mayor West
Why should we? It's not really an Indy-Movie.

Feel the love? Watch this movie again and watch the making of.
Spielberg's heart was NOT in this project! There is no love. I came away feeling that he did not want this picture made and he did not like the Alien storyline.

Maybe this one of the reason why this movie is so bad...
 

Major West

Member
Sankara said:
@Mayor West
Why should we? It's not really an Indy-Movie.

Feel the love? Watch this movie again and watch the making of.
Spielberg's heart was NOT in this project! There is no love. I came away feeling that he did not want this picture made and he did not like the Alien storyline.

Maybe this one of the reason why this movie is so bad...

Don't be silly, Spielberg loved making the forth movie. So much that they are thinking of doing a fifth movie. Maybe taking the whole family along for the ride next time. (y) (y)
 

Vance

New member
Major West said:
Don't be silly, Spielberg loved making the forth movie. So much that they are thinking of doing a fifth movie. Maybe taking the whole family along for the ride next time. (y) (y)

I got the impression that Spielberg liked MAKING the movie, but not the movie itself (the extras kinda of illustrate that). What they definately DID love, though, was getting a whole crap-load of money for it. :p
 

Major West

Member
Vance said:
I got the impression that Spielberg liked MAKING the movie, but not the movie itself (the extras kinda of illustrate that). What they definately DID love, though, was getting a whole crap-load of money for it. :p

It doesn't illustrate anything different about the process than when they made Last Crusade. Just because they had different ideas about what this should be and what that should be, it's happened all before.

I think the people that dislike KOTCS are clinging onto every bare thread they can as ammunition against it. In the hopes that somebody knowledgeable about the films, like me won't come along and point out that it's not exclusive to KOTCS.
 
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Sankara

Guest
@Major West
Well, in THIS case (Skull) they had different ideas about making this movie or not making it.

But it was always clear that the made a part 3.
 

James

Well-known member
Spielberg didn't really like the Macguffin, and only made the film because he felt he owed it to Lucas. It wasn't until they added the family dynamic that his interest perked up. Despite this, he still had a great time making the film, due to the on set camaraderie.

Of course, the only problem for KOTCS haters is that the film I just described is LC. ;)

Major West said:
I think the people that dislike KOTCS are clinging onto every bare thread they can as ammunition against it.

The trouble for most fans is that they are perpetually stuck in the mindset Spielberg had in 1981. They want every film to be approached with the same seriousness as ROTLA. But the reality is that the Indy sequels have always meant something different to Spielberg. After ROTLA, he felt he had already said everything there was to say. So the films became more of a guilty pleasure for him than anything else- as well as a chance to reunite with old friends.

He wasn't that excited about directing TOD, and nearly relegated himself to producer when the script wasn't ready in time. Lucas was afraid of losing him as director, and had to urge the writers to pick up the pace.

And Spielberg has repeatedly said he only made LC because of his promise to Lucas, and to make up for what he perceived as a disappointing film (TOD). He didn't think the Holy Grail was an interesting Macguffin, and it took Connery as Indy's dad to even get him excited about the project. Even then, he purposely tried to frame the movie as the final entry, because he wanted to move on from the series.

So it's definitely clutching at straws to try and argue that Spielberg didn't want to make KOTCS, since he didn't really want to make any of the Indy sequels! If fans had been online back in 1984 or 1989, I'm sure they would've tried to use his candid remarks against those sequels as well.

Regardless, there's no denying he clearly enjoyed making KOTCS. He says he formed a strong friendship with Harrison Ford that had never existed before, and is even willing to direct further installments of the series. It's kind've hard to spin a negative conspiracy theory out of that, no matter how hard you try. Spielberg already cites LC as his favorite Indy film, and it wouldn't surprise me if he ranks KOTCS much higher than TOD (or even ROTLA for that matter).
 

Vendetta08

New member
In the special features, Spielberg mentions more times than many can count that he disliked the Macguffin that Lucas came up with. It's like he was trying to tell the audience "it's not my idea." He kept telling George he didn't want aliens in Indiana Jones but then GL told him that "they aren't aliens, they're inter-dimensional being that look like aliens." Spielberg found that more fascinating and decided to go along with it.

Very reminiscent with Temple of Doom.
 

Darth Vile

New member
Vendetta08 said:
In the special features, Spielberg mentions more times than many can count that he disliked the Macguffin that Lucas came up with. It's like he was trying to tell the audience "it's not my idea." He kept telling George he didn't want aliens in Indiana Jones but then GL told him that "they aren't aliens, they're inter-dimensional being that look like aliens." Spielberg found that more fascinating and decided to go along with it.

Very reminiscent with Temple of Doom.

I don't think the issue was ever the Macguffin. In fact, I'd argue that the crystal skull is one of the best yet. Also, the original premise that Lucas put forward was a lot more alien centric a la 'Independence Day'. And whilst there is absolutely nothing wrong with a modern movie about a 1950's academic/adventurer battling Martians etc., I don't think Spielberg/Ford (and many here), wanted that to specifically be an Indiana Jones movie.

KOTCS was the best possible balance for me? as it was still grounded in the sensibilities of the original movies, but was obviously a concept more fitting to a 21st century auience. And whilst I think the natural fit for Indiana Jones will always be with religious relics of Judo-Christian origin, KOTCS demonstrated that the initial concept can be pushed in other directions? and that those other avenues are worth exploring.
 

James

Well-known member
Sankara said:
@james
No, these polls are indicators. According to these indikators and to the critics "Skull" is the worst of the Indy Movies.

I've explained why they are flawed indicators:

1. They primarily offer the opinion of a select demographic.
Case in point: IMDB's rating is heavily skewed towards 18-29 year olds.

2. They are measuring public opinion 20-30 years after the fact.
All this logically tells us is that KOTCS will likely be remembered far more fondly 20 years from now.

If you were interested in being objective, you'd recognize that there is no Indiana Jones film that is unanimously considered the "worst". Even some of KOTCS' biggest critics failed to rank it 4th in the series. It was far more common to see it criticized as "3rd best" than worst, since TOD and LC still have their share of detractors.

Bear in mind, none of this is an attempt to convince you to change your opinion of KOTCS. It's just pointing out why online polls are hardly conclusive. You were obviously deeply disappointed by the film, and are more than welcome to those feelings. By all means, nurse them for the next 20 years if you must. As for the rest of us, we now have 4 Indiana Jones films to enjoy. :hat:
 

sandiegojones

New member
Sankara said:
@Mayor West
Why should we? It's not really an Indy-Movie.

Feel the love? Watch this movie again and watch the making of.
Spielberg's heart was NOT in this project! There is no love. I came away feeling that he did not want this picture made and he did not like the Alien storyline.

Maybe this one of the reason why this movie is so bad...
Spielberg enjoyed the film and making it. He stated that he didn't want to do the film originally (like 10-15 years ago) because it was overtly alien with spaceships firing lasers & stuff and because he had made Close Encounters and ET (he hadn't gotten to War of the Worlds yet so he obviously lightened up on "no aliens"). They all said that once the skull was tied to Conquistadors and El Dorado and other myths (like Ancient Astronauts) that they agreed and liked the film because it fit with true archeology. As far as I'm concerned aliens are no more silly than God.

To this day Spielberg apologizes for TOD and states it's his least favorite (yes, more then KOTCS), does that mean it sucks and isn't and Indy movie? I love TOD and it has a lot more of Lucas' sensibilities.
 
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Sankara

Guest
@james
Well, I have to say I'm very happy that "the world" hates this movie so much. All these indicators (imdb, rottentomatoes, empiremagazine) show this: Even "South Park" is a kind of indicator.

I'm happy about it because it shows how much "the world" loves Indiana Jones. And if you really love it you can not accept this movie. ... :D
 

Darth Vile

New member
Sankara said:
@james
Well, I have to say I'm very happy that "the world" hates this movie so much. All these indicators (imdb, rottentomatoes, empiremagazine) show this: Even "South Park" is a kind of indicator.

I'm happy about it because it shows how much "the world" loves Indiana Jones. And if you really love it you can not accept this movie. ... :D

Do you suffer from some sort of disorder? Or is it that any intelligence on your part is being lost in translation? ;)

At this point… I’m actually unsure as to whether you just don’t get it, or whether you do, and you are just having a laugh…
 
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