The Godfather Part III

Dr. Gonzo

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from another thread... moved here

Henry W Jones said:
Godfather III is underrated and not a horrible movie. It actually has some great moments and I feel it's a great movie for a sequel. It's not quite I or II but I still find it to be quality and sub par is a bit harsh.


Originally it was going to be called "The Death of Michael Corleone" but Paramount insisted that it be called Part III... which is ironic since Paramount hated the title the "Godfather Part II" and wanted to change it. I think that had Part III been called "The Death of Michael Corleone" it would have been more accepted and seen as a supplement film... which was Coppola's intention.

What I meant by my "subpar" comment is that it is subpar to the other two Godfathers. If you divorce it from the other two it makes a good standalone film. I love a few scenes in that film. Particularly the very end when Michael finally dies of old age in Corleone Sicily and the little puppy goes up to him. I love that for some reason. I think that... Like I said above, had the title been different it would been more accepted. I think that may be the reason Ridley Scott's "Alien prequel" doesn't have the word "alien" in it. Prometheus is a very different story, much like Godfather 3 is a very different story... so perhaps divorcing "alien" from the title will stop people from giving it so much flak.
 

Dr. Gonzo

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Attila the Professor said:
Well, of course. (Although, Henry W Jones is right...there's some very good stuff in it, but most of the problems are those of casting, namely the presence of Sofia Coppola and, even more so, the absence of Robert Duvall. Still - it's the definition of subpar to be below the norm.)

But the characters in the Godfather are still more compelling than Indy. His appeal is more iconic than character-based, even though its the enriching of a iconic type figure with characterization that gives the films and the man staying power.

I think the absence of Duvall is a key reason why it doesn't feel as much like a Godfather film to me.
 
nezobiwan said:
If you ask me, letting her direct a film might have been a bigger blunder...

... just my brief 2 cents on that subject.

Agreed...Lost in Translation was one of the biggest pretentious turds ive ever seen.
 

TheMutt92

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Dr. Gonzo said:
I think the absence of Duvall is a key reason why it doesn't feel as much like a Godfather film to me.

My enjoyment of the film would've doubled had Duvall starred. Just give him his money! :p

But the film is nowhere near as bad as its reputation suggests. Michael's relationship with future pope is interesting, and the finale of killings is beautifully shot.
 

Henry W Jones

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Dr. Gonzo said:
I think the absence of Duvall is a key reason why it doesn't feel as much like a Godfather film to me.


I always felt that the absence of Duvall was a further representation of how he "got rid of" or pushed away virtually everyone in his life. The movie is extremely tragic. I do agree Sofia Coppola does not deliver in her performance, but otherwise a great piece. I think it was a great yet tragic ending.
 

Dr. Gonzo

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Henry W Jones said:
I always felt that the absence of Duvall was a further representation of how he "got rid of" or pushed away virtually everyone in his life.
That's an interesting point. I never thought of it that way. I like your logic there.

Truth be told there was a money issue, Duvall wanted more than they could offer, he felt he was a main character by this point, Coppola wanted him, the studio wouldn't budge. So there you have it. This information by the way is on the commentary track for Godfather III if anyone is interested. I may watch it this evening. Been awhile.
 

Attila the Professor

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Dr. Gonzo said:
That's an interesting point. I never thought of it that way. I like your logic there.

I like the logic of it too, but as I recall, Tom is spoken of so little in the film that it's hard for it to operate that way - especially since all we know is that he died.

I'd be interested to see what the script was before they replaced Duvall with George Hamilton. No way he was just going to be the lawyer...
 

phantom train

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IMHO, Godfather Part III is an excellent movie, and is definitely one of the most underrated films of all time. It is unfairly compared to the first two Godfathers, when in reality it's a completely different type of story; this film was a portrait of an aging Michael Corleone and his family. Al Pacino & Andy Garcia were great in the film; I also felt that SC was fine in the movie, and I felt the death of her character was very poignant. The final scene of Michael Corleone, alone, passing away quiety in the small village was also quite moving.

I also liked the fact that it was almost a period piece - it came out in 1990, though it was primarily set in the late '70's.

In any case, even if you don't like the film as much as I did, I would hope most people would agree that the vehemence that this movie has received over the years is quite undeserved.
 
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Dr. Gonzo

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Attila the Professor said:
I'd be interested to see what the script was before they replaced Duvall with George Hamilton. No way he was just going to be the lawyer...

I could start digging, but it is more than likely the search for such a draft will not bare fruit. At least at my level.

EDIT:

Ask and ye shall receive... That didn't take long. GUESS WHAT I FOUND
http://www.awesomefilm.com/script/godfather3.pdf
And on page two Tom Hagen is listed as a main character. I've only read up to page five and it seems Tom becomes Michael's legitimate lawyer. They have a talk about it and Tom says, "I never took it personal." To which Michael says, "You've made me more money as my legitimate lawyer than you ever did as my consigliere."
 
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Attila the Professor

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Dr. Gonzo said:
I could start digging, but it is more than likely the search for such a draft will not bare fruit. At least at my level.

EDIT:

Ask and ye shall receive... That didn't take long. GUESS WHAT I FOUND
http://www.awesomefilm.com/script/godfather3.pdf
And on page two Tom Hagen is listed as a main character. I've only read up to page five and it seems Tom becomes Michael's legitimate lawyer. They have a talk about it and Tom says, "I never took it personal." To which Michael says, "You've made me more money as my legitimate lawyer than you ever did as my consigliere."

Beautiful...I've been meaning to re-view the films lately. The prospect of reading this might spur me to actually do it.

Edit: And I'd forgotten Enzo reappears!
 

Attila the Professor

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Nurhachi1991 said:
Excellent point Atillia! Man your the coolest (y) (y) (y)

Posting under the influence again?

Anyhow, I just read the script. Hagen does have some good material, but it's still not quite a star role. Connie is still more prominent than he is.

As much as I think the opera finish is well done, the "settling all family business" sequence in this script is <I>very</I> good just in its having found such a suitable scene to intercut it with. I'm not sure if I prefer it without Mary being shot or feel that her subplot is distinctly less worth including without her death in the end. Even so, though, there is less of her and Vincent than in the final film.
 

Dr. Gonzo

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Attila the Professor said:
Anyhow, I just read the script. Hagen does have some good material, but it's still not quite a star role. Connie is still more prominent than he is.

I have not gotten a chance to read past ten pages...

Is Hagen more prominent in this draft than Mary and Vincent? Probably not?
 

Nurhachi1991

Well-known member
Attila the Professor said:
Posting under the influence again?

Anyhow, I just read the script. Hagen does have some good material, but it's still not quite a star role. Connie is still more prominent than he is.

As much as I think the opera finish is well done, the "settling all family business" sequence in this script is <I>very</I> good just in its having found such a suitable scene to intercut it with. I'm not sure if I prefer it without Mary being shot or feel that her subplot is distinctly less worth including without her death in the end. Even so, though, there is less of her and Vincent than in the final film.



..... yes :eek:
 

Attila the Professor

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Dr. Gonzo said:
I have not gotten a chance to read past ten pages...

Is Hagen more prominent in this draft than Mary and Vincent? Probably not?

There's less Mary, but not really, no. He does get a few very good moments, however.

Still, I did a little more reading, and this script you found seems to lie between the eventual script and an earlier version which was primarily a Michael & Tom story, as Cracked details.

6 Famously Terrible Movies That Were Almost Awesome said:
It's the Rocky V of the Godfather trilogy, and for more reasons than just the poorly acted, painfully unwelcome supporting characters forced onto the audience at gunpoint.

All talk of Sofia Coppola's horrible acting aside, perhaps the biggest blow to The Godfather: Part III was the notable absence of Robert Duvall's consigliere Tom Hagen from the whole damn affair. The short story is that Robert Duvall's price to reprise his role was too high, but the more accurate story is that Sonny and Fredo's deaths had pretty much put Tom Hagen on equal footing with Michael for the male lead, a fact which the corresponding actors' proposed salaries didn't reflect. Duvall later said, "If they paid Pacino twice what they paid me, that's fine, but not three or four times, which is what they did."

Add it all up, and The Godfather: Part III was released to a chorus of boos, to the point that it's a massive understatement to say it's the worst of the Godfather films.

The Awesome Movie We Missed Out On:
The Godfather: Part III was supposed to be such an ostentatious Greek tragedy that Coppola originally wanted to title the movie The Death of Michael Corleone.

The film would have chronicled the fall of one of the greatest cinematic characters of all time, centering on a civil war between Michael Corleone and the last moral fiber left in the family, good ol' Tom Hagen. How do we know this? Because this is precisely the spectacular ending that the first two films had been hinting toward all along. Coppola would later lament in his DVD commentary that Duvall's absence "was a profound loss ... to this movie," adding that the film seemed "incomplete" without the crucial inclusion of Tom Hagen.
 

Dr. Gonzo

New member
Attila the Professor said:
There's less Mary, but not really, no. He does get a few very good moments, however.

Still, I did a little more reading, and this script you found seems to lie between the eventual script and an earlier version which was primarily a Michael & Tom story, as Cracked details.
Hmmm. Well I'm not sure. The script we read says its a FIRST DRAFT dated 1989. I think Cracked is making an assumption there about the Michael vs. Tom story... but that would have been the movie I wanted to see. That would have been killer and it should have been done... Maybe there is a second draft out there?
 

Attila the Professor

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Dr. Gonzo said:
Hmmm. Well I'm not sure. The script we read says its a FIRST DRAFT dated 1989. I think Cracked is making an assumption there about the Michael vs. Tom story... but that would have been the movie I wanted to see. That would have been killer and it should have been done... Maybe there is a second draft out there?

Hmm. I wonder. Because there's also this on imdb's trivia page for the film:

IMDB said:
Originally, the script was to center around Tom and Michael. Tom was going to be an informant. When Robert Duvall got the script he realized his character was the second lead, yet the studio was offering the same amount of money as he received for the last film (around 1/9th the money all the other principals received). Duvall counteroffered through Francis Ford Coppola to Paramount. Paramount denied offering more money and told Coppola to re-write the script without Tom. This version was the only one to feature Michael dying in a car accident at the end of the film.

It's IMDB, so who knows how valid these details are, but it's something.
 
the biggest blow to The Godfather: Part III was the notable absence of Robert Duvall's consigliere Tom Hagen

It would have been great to see him take down 'The Irish Gang!"

He and Kay did take care of some personal business...(y)
 

Dr. Gonzo

New member
Attila the Professor said:
Hmm. I wonder. Because there's also this on imdb's trivia page for the film:



It's IMDB, so who knows how valid these details are, but it's something.
I think I may have an answer.
Perhaps there was a draft entitled: THE DEATH OF MICHAEL CORLEONE maybe? Perhaps there were a few drafts of this then after Paramount forces Coppola to take Duvall out and change the title the story is so drastically different by this time that calling it The Godfather Part III FIRST DRAFT is warranted. Pure speculation on my part, but feasible?
 
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