Indiana Jones 5: July 19, 2019

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Udvarnoky

Well-known member
Indy's brother and the Attila quote he's responding to have got this figured out. I recall us additionally throwing in Van Helsing and Lovecraft as possible touchstones.

They can totally make a good Indy movie with 75-year old Ford. As long as they don't hire back David Koepp, they almost can't lose.

Oh.
 

Randy_Flagg

Well-known member
AndyLGR said:
On the subject of macguffins we don't want to see. I hope they don't use something from the previous films, like the Ark has been stolen by someone. The only reason I say that is that although I enjoyed TFA immensely, it was a very simple plot that harked back to the original films in its story and aesthetic look and it makes me wonder if Disney would do a similar thing with Indy and recycle old ideas and stories and play it safe.

Good point. I remember when KOTCS was in development, there were rumors about the Ark appearing in it, and some people speculated that the movie would be about the exact scenario you mentioned-- Villains steal the ark from the warehouse, and it's up to Indy to get it back. Let's hope they never do something like that.

I could definitely see them throwing in some nods to the previous films, but I hope they do it well. For example, the nod in TOD, when Indy is about to reach for his gun to shoot the swordsmen, was perfect. It was subtle, and genuinely funny. The ark's appearance in KOTCS, on the other hand, wasn't subtle or funny, it was just kind of pointless and felt too much like Steven was winking at the audience.
 

Z dweller

Well-known member
Udvarnoky said:
Re: The Fountain of Youth
We need to get back to the eastern hemisphere in a big way with part five.
Eastern seaboard more like, if KOTCS is anything to go by.

"Indiana Jones and the Montauk mistery"

Just kidding. Let's be optimistic and hope that the beards* can be induced to shoot on location abroad again.



*Steve and Harry, I mean. :p
 

Udvarnoky

Well-known member
Spielberg was happy to shoot his subsequent movies abroad, including his very next [live action] film, War Horse. To me his "I want to shoot close from home" attitude on Indy4 was emblematic of his general That's Good Enough approach toward the project in general.
 

Finn

Moderator
Staff member
Udvarnoky said:
And from a business standpoint, while I kind of get the strategy of introducing us to the new actor while we're saying goodbye to the old one, there are liabilities as well. Unless Disney's working faster than any of us suspect and are penning the reboot script in tandem, it seems pointless to commit to the new actor so far ahead of time. Approaching the movie with one foot in the "Indiana Jones 5" mindset and another in the reboot seems like a recipe for making neither work. They'll have their work cut out for them without the extra baggage.
The big issue in this thread and this train of thought is that it represents things from a fan's insular view. And it's not the only example in this thread.

I visited this point earlier in this thread. One of the hard questions Disney has to answer is, who is the targeted audience of this film? Us diehard fans who are bound to see this movie no matter what, or the more general audience? Because the latter won't flock to this film if it's not like the ones made before.

Normally, I'd say that having the name "Indiana Jones" in the title would draw in enough casual viewers to turn a profit. In fact, KotCS is a good example of that. Had the same story been told as part of some new or less known franchise, it would have bombed. However, this film won't enjoy the same treatment - because of KotCS. The fourth installment made money for the specific reason that it was an Indiana Jones movie, but let's not kid ourselves, many people walked out of the theater thinking they had not just seen a good movie. It's even something of an acquired taste with us fans, having required multiple viewings to appreciate its finer points.

This is why I encourage the fans on this forum look at places outside this forum, where they can get the sense from the average viewer. As I scour the web for this first response outside diehard fandom, I can see it's... nothing positive. Most seem to think that after a turd like KotCS (their opinion, not mine) and Ford's advanced age, this one's bound to be even greater trainwreck.

Now, this response of course matters for naught if they pull it off and manage to put together a truly good movie with the pieces in their hand. But if they don't, only established fans are going to see it. And that's when things become difficult, because there just aren't enough of us truly enthusiastic fans for this movie to turn profit. A case in point, just look at this joint around you, The Raven. And then compare it to the fan communities of, say, Star Wars.

A Star Wars film can bank on the practicing fans alone and turn in a pretty buck. Now, I don't presume that every enthusiastic Indyfan frequents these boards (and not only because we've certainly dealt our share of ASBOs over the years), but I can still say with some confidence that an Indiana Jones film can not. If one wants a casual to see this movie, it needs to be like the previous films, a grand swashbucking adventure. They won't flock to a piece that's a "study in aging" or otherwise breaks the formula - especially not after having their minds soured by the previous entry. To get them to flock to this film, it needs to fix pretty much everything that made KotCS such a bad film. And one of those things was that Mr. Ford, in their mind, was too old even back then.

Now, Disney... a word of warning. I'm a fan, and if you intend this film to be primarily a Ford vehicle, I'll see it. I will pay for my seat in the theater and buy the DVD.

But... about 80% of those people who paid to see KotCS... will not.
 

Johnny Nys

Member
Good point, and I fear the same thing. I don't know anyone in real life who likes KotCS as well as I do, and would be as excited as I am about a fifth movie.

I went to Comic Con in Brussels three days ago, there was this panel talking about the new Star Wars, the new Captain America, Batman v Superman, 10 Cloverfield Lane, etc. Then at open question time, part of me wanted to ask what they thought of the news of Indy 5. But another part didn't dare ask, for fear that they'd laugh me away.
 

Udvarnoky

Well-known member
Finn said:
Normally, I'd say that having the name "Indiana Jones" in the title would draw in enough casual viewers to turn a profit. In fact, KotCS is a good example of that. Had the same story been told as part of some new or less known franchise, it would have bombed. However, this film won't enjoy the same treatment - because of KotCS. The fourth installment made money for the specific reason that it was an Indiana Jones movie, but let's not kid ourselves, many people walked out of the theater thinking they had not just seen a good movie. It's even something of an acquired taste with us fans, having required multiple viewings to appreciate its finer points.

You and I may have the suspicion that Crystal Skull diminished the brand, but this is not the kind of reasoning that financial decisions are based on. We refer to them as bean counters for a reason. Numbers are all that matter, and Crystal Skull had the numbers. So, no, I don't think you're taking the point of view of the suits as accurately as you believe.

It goes in the other direction too. It's kind of like how a studio isn't likely to greenlight a sequel to a movie that bombed, even if the reasons it bombed might have been incidental to the movie quality. (Not marketed properly, released in an overly crowded season, national power outage.) When it comes to greenlighting sequels, the previous movie was either a hit or it wasn't. Period. Circumstances and internet raging be damned.

Also, it'll have been 11 years since Crystal Skull when the fifth movie comes out, so they may well cash in on the Indy drought in a similar way that Crystal Skull did. We agree it won't be to the same extent, since Crystal Skull isn't fondly remembered the way Last Crusade is, but a lot of time has passed and that's to Disney's benefit. The prospect of seeing Harrison Ford in the hat again will open the wallets of the rank and file populace. Because it is them, and not the angry online fanbase (a group I count myself among and that tends to show up to the theater anyway) that translate to box office. That's an extremely safe bet and it's no great wonder that Disney has decided to place it.
 

Finn

Moderator
Staff member
Udvarnoky said:
You and I may have the suspicion that Crystal Skull diminished the brand, but this is not the kind of reasoning that financial decisions are based on. We refer to them as bean counters for a reason. Numbers are all that matter, and Crystal Skull had the numbers. So, no, I don't think you're taking the point of view of the suits as accurately as you believe.
I wasn't describing what I think they think, rather I was telling them what they should think. But I don't think you're getting it right either given that you allude the bottom line of the last film is the only thing they're looking at. At the very least I hope they have enough of an inkling to recognize they're dealing now with a largely different situation than they were a decade ago.

Whether they draw the same conclusions from that as I did, is anybody's guess. I think what they must realize at least is that using a man in his mid-70s as the leading man of a major action blockbuster is a highly unorthodox idea. (And don't start with TFA, that was an ensemble piece.) They should at least focus test that first.

Of course, then there's the whole dynamic between making one last, one-time cash grab and trying to rejuvenate a franchise. If it were to be the last Indy film ever made, I wouldn't wonder one bit for using Ford and only Ford one last time. But if they have long-lasting plans and hope to milk the IP for multiple movies' worth, starting with something that little resembles the things that follow but may yet offput large part of the audience is generally not a good idea. At least they'd be wise to wait for a few years again before the eventual reboot. Which is would be bad for us fans and more evidence of the Ford fetishists shooting themselves in the leg.
 

seasider

Active member
I think the movie will do about as well KOTCS did. Sure, there were a lot of people who felt let down by KOTCS but people still love the Indiana Jones brand, Harrison Ford is still Hollywood royalty and Spielberg is still one of the world's most beloved filmmakers.

The general reaction I've seen in the blogisphere since the announcement is "Crystal Skull was terrible but I'm hoping they can turn this thing around with this movie" and very little if any "Indiana Jones is dead to me cause Crystal Skull sucked" reactions. People seem to be willing to give Indy another chance and are at least interested to see how they're gonna pull this one off.
 

OldIndy2323

Active member
One of the problems in this whole mix is what comes next? Is Disney thinking that they'll respect Steven and Harrison and just wait until they're done making Indy movies before they reboot the whole thing back to the 1930's (a la James Bond and "Casino Royale")? Or introduce via flashback a new Indy to hold down whatever Indy movie comes after 5? I don't think the whole "sidekick spin-off" is a real possibility. Does anyone know of an action / adventure movie sidekick ending up with their own franchise?
 

Finn

Moderator
Staff member
seasider said:
I think the movie will do about as well KOTCS did. Sure, there were a lot of people who felt let down by KOTCS but people still love the Indiana Jones brand, Harrison Ford is still Hollywood royalty and Spielberg is still one of the world's most beloved filmmakers.

The general reaction I've seen in the blogisphere since the announcement is "Crystal Skull was terrible but I'm hoping they can turn this thing around with this movie" and very little if any "Indiana Jones is dead to me cause Crystal Skull sucked" reactions. People seem to be willing to give Indy another chance and are at least interested to see how they're gonna pull this one off.
This movie's success will entirely depend on how good of a movie it is. If they pull it off and it's a good one, then it will make money and even the naysayers will find their way into the theater.

But if it's not well received in general, people who thought KotCS is a bad film won't bother their time with this. Throwing around arguments like "it's Spielberg + Ford + Indy brand, things can't go wrong", are about ten years outdated, since the latest entry to the series did show that a lot can go wrong.

And saying enough time has passed from said last entry is no argument either. In fact, it's a glaring logical infallacy. If people can still remember all the good entries from 30 years ago, they won't have issues remembering the bad one from ten years ago.
 

Pale Horse

Moderator
Staff member
OldIndy2323 said:
Does anyone know of an action / adventure movie sidekick ending up with their own franchise?

Theoretically the Mummy Series spun off the Scorpion King Series. Not really a Side-Kick dealieo, though. How about Joanie Loves Chachi from Happy Days... chuckle.

Nevermind
 

Silvor

New member
I think all these discussions about what the new movie should be boils down to the fact that people are fans of this movie series for different reasons.

Some folks enjoy the movies more for the action and the stunt sequences while others are a fan of the characters and stories themselves more than the crazy stunts.

I fall into the later category and because of that I think it's absolutely no problem at all for Indy to be an older man now. It's only natural that he ages like anybody. Of course he won't be as bouncy as his younger days but that is perfectly fine.

I'm excited about what the story will be, what sort of place we find Indy in now. Is he healthy? Is he sick? Is he with family or is he alone? Is he home or is he perhaps stranded somewhere? Where will his last(?) adventure take him?
There are so many possibilities!

I often see people here saying what the movie studios obviously are thinking or what they should do but the fact is nobody here knows that.
I don't think those people thought that Disney would actually announce a new movie with Ford and Spielberg on board, yet here we are.

I also don't think they would mention Ford in the announcement if he's only playing a smaller part in the movie, but of course that is just my interpretation. And I'm sure people will argue against it.
 

Finn

Moderator
Staff member
Silvor said:
I think all these discussions about what the new movie should be boils down to the fact that people are fans of this movie series for different reasons.
Mhm. However, the crux of the discussion is not trying to claim that there's some single right reason for liking the series. I certainly don't try to disqualify yours - and not the least because I belong to the same category - as I believe many here do, especially those who have frequented the forum for the past five years or so when there's been an obvious drought of any Indy-related media, and plenty of time to bore into the existing pieces beyond their superficial shell.

Yet I don't like have enough childlike naivety to figure Disney will make this movie just for our kind. I have that even less after watching TFA. Because - and let me brutally honest here - TFA was the most coldly, calculatingly made piece of entertainment I've seen in a long while. It pretty much had something meant to pander to everyone who might chance upon it.

But... it was also a damn good movie because of it. Because they didn't just throw those elements there haphazardly, but used that cold, calculating mentality to place them in there, while weaving a good story around them.

Now, there's no need to wonder at all why Ford's gonna be in Indy 5. It's because Ford's presence panders to a certain segment. But the important question here is... what makes you think it's the only segment they're going to pander to?
 
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AndyLGR

Active member
Finn said:
Yet I don't like have enough childlike naivety to figure Disney will make this movie just for our kind. I have that even less after watching TFA. Because - and let me brutally honest here - TFA was the most coldly, calculatingly made piece of entertainment I've seen in a long while. It pretty much had something meant to pander to everyone who might chance upon it.

But... it was also a damn good movie because of it. Because they didn't just throw those elements there haphazardly, but used that cold, calculating mentality to place them in there, while weaving a good story around them.

I alluded to this in an earlier post and this sums it up perfectly. Its exactly why I feel Indy 5 will be straight out of the book of the original films, (in particular Raiders and TLC), something that takes you back in to that style of movie.

Disney unashamedly did it with TFA and pulled it off IMO. I think they did this to get the new series of films off to a good solid start, especially as the prequels are widely acknowledged as not as good as the originals.

In a similar way this is what KOTCS did for the Indy films. Although the difference with Indy is that its still the same character that was in KOTCS, whereas Star Wars brought back the characters and the look and feel of the originals. So I guess Indy 5 will be relying on the goodwill of the audience to go and see it and forgive the problems with KOTCS. I feel Indy 5 will get this goodwill, I can’t see the vast majority of people who went to see all the previous films thinking that they won’t bother with 5 because KOTCS wasn’t as good as the others.

I feel confident (purely based on what Disney did with TFA) that they know exactly what they need to do to get the Indy films back on track. I think Disney understand this and the target audience that its aimed at, which will be the same target audience that its always been, the advantage that films like Indy and Star Wars have is that because they’ve been around so long is that they are crossing generations.

Another positive at the moment is Harrison Ford. His portrayal of Han in TFA shows he still has the fire and ability to step back in to those characters shoes again.

The question is will this film be a one off or will they be laying the groundwork for more? Its clear Harrison probably won’t do any more after this. So my gut feeling is that Indy will get rebooted by Disney at some point in the future. Indy 5 may be their litmus test and the popularity of 5 may determine how quickly they get round to a reboot with other actors and directors. I can’t see them using a sidekick established in 5. Indiana Jones could still be too highly profitable a character for Disney to discard after Harrison hangs up the whip.
 

Udvarnoky

Well-known member
Finn said:
Yet I don't like have enough childlike naivety to figure Disney will make this movie just for our kind.

It's possible Spielberg will just be given free reign on this one, and Disney will do the micromanaging thing for the reboot. I know that sounds optimistic, but it's not like I necessarily trust Spielberg's instincts on the Indy front either. Though ultimately I fall on the side of letting Spielberg close out the era his own way.
 

Walecs

Active member
AndyLGR said:
The question is will this film be a one off or will they be laying the groundwork for more? Its clear Harrison probably won?t do any more after this. So my gut feeling is that Indy will get rebooted by Disney at some point in the future. Indy 5 may be their litmus test and the popularity of 5 may determine how quickly they get round to a reboot with other actors and directors. I can?t see them using a sidekick established in 5. Indiana Jones could still be too highly profitable a character for Disney to discard after Harrison hangs up the whip.

I have no problem with Disney rebooting Indiana Jones. I'm 100% sure that I won't watch it, but if they want to do it that's fine. All I want is a fifth film starring Ford, where Indy is played only by him, with no flashbacks or "Indy getting younger because he drank from the Fountain of Youth" stuff. After that, as far as I'm concerned, Disney can do whatever they want.
 
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