Apple for teacher? Why'd he do that?

Katarn07

New member
Yeah, well I like reading 'uber-speculations' :)p) over the rambling of Indy IV rumors. I'm not sure why you dislike them and have to shoot them down....
 

Joe Brody

Well-known member
Ants

[Laughing] Good catch. It's very clear to me that the ants are used in the same manner as the snakes and rats later in the film to demonstrate that the Ark is a bad thing.
 

Joe Brody

Well-known member
Matthias1138 said:
Yeah, well I like reading 'uber-speculations' :)p) over the rambling of Indy IV rumors. I'm not sure why you dislike them and have to shoot them down....

I hear you. I actually deleted a sentence from an earlier post in which I said maybe I wouldn't be going so stir-crazy over Raiders if I had another Indiana Jones film to discuss.
 

westford

Member
I was gonna say that the guy with the apple was a "suck up", but after that last post it might be taken the wrong way...
 

Attila the Professor

Moderator
Staff member
Well, y'know...even if something isn't intended, it can still work as some great little indications of character. Sometimes there is even unintended symbolism...has anyone ever heard about how The Wizard of Oz is supposedly really about the gold standard?
 

Katarn07

New member
Attila the Professor said:
Well, y'know...even if something isn't intended, it can still work as some great little indications of character. Sometimes there is even unintended symbolism...has anyone ever heard about how The Wizard of Oz is supposedly really about the gold standard?

Actually.... yes. Very interesting theory but it's just someone over analyzing the story. A lot of stuff in Literature is over analyzed I think. Can't books just have been written for entertainment and not some deeper meaning? I'd say yes, but people delve into them anyways just as Joe Brody's doing with this particular scene. I really see nothing wrong with it, either. It's all very intriguing stuff :)
 

Joe Brody

Well-known member
Attila the Professor said:
...has anyone ever heard about how The Wizard of Oz is supposedly really about the gold standard?

. . . yeah those good for nothing tax-and-spend-supply-side-deficit-building-good-for-nothings down in Emerald City . . . .

. . . .but that's a long story for another day.

Great to see you Attila! [BTW, I saw Wicked last October and it was pretty good.]
 
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Pale Horse

Moderator
Staff member
Attila the Professor said:
has anyone ever heard about how The Wizard of Oz is supposedly really about the gold standard?

Really? I never got that from the Dark Side of the Moon Album.

Back on topic, I don't think that Brody would have picked up the apple off the table if it wasn't falling in the first place.

It is my contention that Denholm was so into the acting, that he wouldn't have wanted to start the whole scene over; just catch the apple and keep on going. (It saves time and money when they don't have to reset everything, and they didn't want a blooper with the falling apple.) That just left where to put it.

I think the boy delivering apple was a stereotypical reference to the whole apple a day student teacher relationship that exists to this day.
 

Joe Brody

Well-known member
I think the cinematography in the three scenes (classroom, the Eaton/Musgrove meeting, and Indy's House) is the best in the film -- and it's the only thing that I can tender in support of my theory that the apple snatch was planned and intentional. [Bear with me on this, I'm no film student and I'm not up on the proper terminology, and, as per usual, I go on too long.]

Watch the three scenes and check out the angles and camarawork and how each actor's movements tie into everything perfectly. From Marcus turning his head to check out the female student in the hall outside the classroom (I assume Elliot being a dirty old man would be the 'simplest' explanation there, right Finn?), to the shot of Marcus sitting on the arm of the couch/chair in Indy's house, where his figure ties perfectly into a line with the bust against the back wall, the standing lamp and Indy packing his suitcase. In this later shot, both Marcus walking into the room and the line created by him sitting on the couch arm, creates depth -- which enhances the dramatic effect when Indy tosses his S&W forward into the suitcase (this is my favorite shot in the film). The last quick shot of the gun resting in the bag positions the viewer's eye perfectly for the next shot of the seaplane.

Now back to the apple snatch in the classroom, it's in the lower part of the screen. That shot is designed to go back further into room where Indy goes to pick up the little artifacts to justify his ticket the Marrakesh. At the beginning of the shot, Marcus takes the apple, polishes it and then pockets it. As the shot tracks back into the room, Marcus then picks up the Egyptian brush (some help here from the archaelogy crowd?) and then back to Indy where he takes the proffered trinket. At this point, at the far side of the room, Indy learns he's got to go see the Military Intelligence guys, he then goes forward out of the classroom in a slight tizzy ('What am I, in trouble?'). The viewer is first pulled into the scene (helped along by Marcus's movements) and then shot out along with Indy.

I think that all the dialogue and exposition in these scenes is not boring in large part because of this great attention to detail. Even at the most dialogue intensive part of the three scenes -- where Indy and Marcus explain the Ark's history, there's the highly skeptical Major Eaton' with his bulging eyes in the middle of the back-and-forth. Not only is it's hilarious and a neat little change-up but his prescenes grounds the back-and-forth.

These scenes have a big responsibility: there has to be closure on Indy's failed attempt to get the Idol, establish Indy as an archaelogist, and set up for the major story. All this has to be done in as little time as possible without the viewers getting bored -- which is almost sure to happen when there's too much talking with actors standing around with their hands at their sides (watch a bad action movie -- like Phantom Menace or Attack of the Clones -- and you'll be surprise at how much standing around and talking there is).

Now I don't know if the apple snatch was planned, but I'd say that the apple was a visual marker that served to focus the viewer's eye in the lower front corner of the screen so that the viewer would then be pulled back into the room. Marcus's movements help move the viewer's eye along. And again, I'd argue that the apple snatch (along with Marcus checking out the female student) is non-verbal exposition that gets bonus points because it not only helps the movement in the shot but it tells us something about the character.
 

Finn

Moderator
Staff member
Indyologist said:
Do you mean cherries to, um, "pop?" Sorry.

westford said:
I was gonna say that the guy with the apple was a "suck up", but after that last post it might be taken the wrong way...

Now now, it appears that the girls are the dirtyminds here. :p

I confess, I was just waiting to see who'd grab the hook.
 

Indyologist

Well-known member
A thought!

Hey, was the "apple guy" the only male student in the class? I'll have to check my DVD when I get home...
 

Indyologist

Well-known member
Okay, you guys have all posted some interesting theories as to why the male student in Indy's class in Raiders sarcasticly left an "apple for teacher" on his desk. Some of you guys got way too analytical, BTW. Still, it was interesting to see how some of your minds work! :)

Here's my own personal theory. We all remember Miss I-Love-You-On-Her-Eyelids in that scene, right? Well, could it be that at one time this girl was THAT guy's girlfriend? Or perhaps Indy could have stolen the heart away of some other girl in that class that was once his gal? When he puts the apple on Indy's desk, I definately don't think he was trying to be a "suck up." You can see on his face that he's obviously angry. I interpreted his "apple-giving" in this way: "Way to go, a----le , you stole my girl. Hope you're happy now. Here's an 'apple for teacher.'"

Here's another theory: Could Indy be giving higher grades to the girls because he likes them, while the poor lone sap of a guy has to accept a lower grade? Discriminating, I know-- but hey, I'd be p---ed off too!
 

Finn

Moderator
Staff member
Now, that would be difficult to think about Indy. He is obviously more browned off, embarassed and distracted by the attention he gains than pleased about it. That theory would kinda go against the idea of Indy's two sides. On the other hand he's an adventurer who goes 'round and rough, on the other a homey teacher who knows exactly how things are done on that field too.

I still say that the apple was nothing but a simple school allegory. But when Marcus snatched the thing, then I agree there can be something more than just a quick moment for 'hey'.
 

Indyologist

Well-known member
Finn said:
Now, that would be difficult to think about Indy. He is obviously more browned off, embarassed and distracted by the attention he gains than pleased about it. That theory would kinda go against the idea of Indy's two sides. On the other hand he's an adventurer who goes 'round and rough, on the other a homey teacher who knows exactly how things are done on that field too.

It is true that Indy's embarrassed by too much attention. I would also imagine that Indy would do his best to be fair as a teacher, so perhaps my second theory was incorrect. But do you think that perhaps there are girls in his class that get a little more "extra credit?" Maybe.

I'm pretty sure I know what you're talking about as far as Indy's "two sides," but could you kindly elaborate what you mean by this, Finn?
 

Finn

Moderator
Staff member
What's so complicated in that "two sides" -issue?

Practically, Indiana Jones in the wilderness and and Dr. Jones in the college are shown nearly as two different characters. While in the class, Indy is strictly theoretical, he almost acts dully towards his students and sticks strictly to the taught subject at hand... and finds female attention more a nuisance than a joy. When the man wearing a fedora returns from the wilderness, we might imagine him dropping in some shanty bar to have a pint, not turning into a glasses- and tweed-wearing bookworm. Now I'm going analytical (though this same analysis was made by the big L himself), but there is a wide ravine between the college Indy and adventure Indy, nearly so wide that they could be taken as two different characters. Somehow, I don't think that a Nazi trooper, for example, when running into the leather wearing American nuisance, would even be able to imagine (if he really stopped for a moment and thought about it) that this man's day job is teaching history to kids.
 
katanga said:
Maybe it was an sublime advertising thing for Apple (Macintosh)?

lol! Oh yea, I'd like to say i am SO THRILLED!!! that the raven is back!!!! YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY!!!
When it first broke down, i felt horrible! Everyday i would go on, just to c if it was on. but it's bac now, so WHIPee!!! lol. Fo rthe apple scene, i personally think that it was just meant to feel the school atmosphere, but maybe the kid was a mama's boy, and his mom made him give Indy an apple, but he was embarressed because he thought only girls liked Indy? not very likely... OH WELL.
 
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