Thuggee - Fact & Fiction

Stoo

Well-known member
Pankot not in Burma

Stoo said:
The province of Pankot is fictional and its location in the film is very vague but from what we can tell during the map sequence, it must be situated somewhere in north-EAST of India (quite possibly Burma, modern-day Myanmar*).

*I could make a whole new thread about why Pankot's location is most likely NOT in present-day India!:gun:
Please, SCRATCH my idea of Pankot possibly being in Burma. My imagination must have been running wild last night...:eek:

(Still, it doesn't change the fact that the province of Pankot is somewhere in northeast India.)
 

Dig Site 1138

New member
In post #2 of this thread, Montana Smith quoted the West End Games Temple of Doom Sourcebook: "Bengal is Kali's strongest area of worship." According to my knowledge, I do NOT agree with this at all.


Well, I'm not an expert or anything, but Calcutta, aka Kolkatta is named after Kali. And it's in the Bengal region. I was told this by a Bengali (N.E. Indian) co-worker who viewed Kali as her patron goddess. Further northeast, of course is what is now Bangladesh, which is a predominately Musilm country. So they're not so much on Kali.
:D
 

Violet

Moderator Emeritus
Stoo said:
Thugs also make an appearance in the '50s film version of "Around the World in 80 Days" but they are only Thuggee by name and don't actually do anything Thug-like. The ritual depicted (sati/suttee) is a completely unrelated practice.

It wasn't just in the 50's film version. The actual novel by Jules Verne does indeed have the Thuggee. There are more conversations on Thuggee in the book before the sati occurs, which are more on the money about the Thuggee, and the scene of the ritual does occur on the outskirts of Calcutta, so obviously Verne did some reading as he was famous for being an "armchair adventurer" (he had some kind of illness that stopped him from travelling as widely as he would like to have).

In terms of reading up on the Thuggee in general, the book "Why did it have to be snakes?" has a very good chapter about the Thuggee.
 

Stoo

Well-known member
Dig Site 1138 said:
Well, I'm not an expert or anything, but Calcutta, aka Kolkatta is named after Kali. And it's in the Bengal region. I was told this by a Bengali (N.E. Indian) co-worker who viewed Kali as her patron goddess. Further northeast, of course is what is now Bangladesh, which is a predominately Musilm country. So they're not so much on Kali.
:D
Dig Site, I didn't know that Calcutta was named after Kali so thanks for that bit of info! The thing is, I'm not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing that Pankot in the northeast region would NOT be the centre of Thug activity (as Indy states). One point of interest is that, even though Kali is a Hindu deity, not all Thugs began as Hindus since there was a percentage of Thuggee who were Muslim!:eek:
Violet Indy said:
It wasn't just in the 50's film version. The actual novel by Jules Verne does indeed have the Thuggee. There are more conversations on Thuggee in the book before the sati occurs, which are more on the money about the Thuggee, and the scene of the ritual does occur on the outskirts of Calcutta, so obviously Verne did some reading as he was famous for being an "armchair adventurer" (he had some kind of illness that stopped him from travelling as widely as he would like to have).
Hooray, Violet is back in town!(y) Being an avid Jules Verne fan, please allow me to clarify a few things.

I haven't read the book in years but just checked my copy (Oxford World Classics 1995 edition) and must retract my comment in the Stranglers of Bombay thread about Verne messing up. Not because of what Violet wrote but because...

In the novel, the ritual is carried out by traditional, Kali-worshipping Hindus. I don't think Verne ever mentions Thuggee in connection with this chapter so it's the films (1956 & 1989 & various animated versions) that get it wrong by portraying suttee as a Thug ceremony. The only time Thugs seem to be mentioned is in one, descriptive paragraph while the train passes near Aurungabad/Aurangabad in *West* India, very far from Calcutta in the east. This fits with the real history in that the center of Thug activity was NOT in the EAST. (If there is more than that, please let me know, Violet.)

According to the explanatory notes in my edition, Verne's account of the Thuggee seems to derive from Eugène Sue's book, "The Wandering Jew", due to the use of the name, Feringhea, for the Thug leader in the area.

(Side note: In the novel, the ritual is being performed in Bundelkhand which is quite central to India's geography and nowhere near Calcutta.)

Re: illness & "armchair adventurer"
Hmmm, I know he developed diabetes later in life but have never heard of Verne having an illness which prevented him from travelling. Where did you hear that, Violet? He did do a fair amount throughout his life. Before writing "80 Days" he went to Scotland, Denmark, Norway, England & the United States. He also loved to sail and owned his own boats. After "80 Days" he sailed to Portugal, Algeria, Norway, Ireland, Scotland, Netherlands & the Mediterannean (for the last trip in the Mediterranean, he was about 55-56 years old) so he did get around somewhat. When he was around 11, he tried to go to INDIA by stowing away on a clipper. Unfortunatley for young Jules, he was discovered before hitting the high seas and was later whipped by his dad for attempting the trip!:whip:
Violet Indy said:
In terms of reading up on the Thuggee in general, the book "Why did it have to be snakes?" has a very good chapter about the Thuggee.
After thumbing through that book in a store, I decided not to buy it but would be interested in reading what that chapter has to say.;)
 

Dig Site 1138

New member
Stoo said:
Dig Site, I didn't know that Calcutta was named after Kali so thanks for that bit of info! The thing is, I'm not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing that Pankot in the northeast region would NOT be the centre of Thug activity (as Indy states). One point of interest is that, even though Kali is a Hindu deity, not all Thugs began as Hindus since there was a percentage of Thuggee who were Muslim!:eek:

Oh, I'm not insisting that NorthEast India was the center of Thugee activity, but I am corroborating that it would be a likely place, as Kali is a very important deity there. And that would jibe with Indy, et al crashing in the mountains.

As to the other, not all Kali worshippers are Thuggee, but all Thuggee are Kali worshippers.

Except, I guess they weren't, since many of them seem to have also been Sikhs and Muslims, both of whom are monotheists. :confused:

Still, the insistence on strangling and drowning, to kill without spilling blood is definitely tied to Kali Ma. It should be reiterated that Kali and Kali worship are not inherently evil. The Thuggee are a murder cult.
 

dr.jones1986

Active member
Stoo said:
Please, SCRATCH my idea of Pankot possibly being in Burma. My imagination must have been running wild last night...:eek:

(Still, it doesn't change the fact that the province of Pankot is somewhere in northeast India.)

The Ultimate Guide actually gives an approximate location of Pankot Palace. The village of Mayapore is located south of the Himalayas, along the Yamuna river. Delhi is further south, also along the Yamuna river. Pankot is East of Mayapore, along the Ganges river, which could be the river Mola Ram fell into. The Yamuna could be the river Indy's raft ended up in. This geography makes sense, because Delhi would be south of Mayapore and Pankot is East, which is heading out of the way.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Has Bob Murch of the wonderful Canadian "Pulp Figures" 28mm miniatures company been reading this thread?

thug1.jpg


Inspired by the old Hammer film 'Stranglers of Bombay' as well as the classic 'Gunga Din',these figs will be underway this winter. I am thinking there will be a pack of stranglers, a pack armed with picks, shovels and other improvised weapons and one armed with rifles.

http://www.pulpfigures.com/main.php?custID=21743142261290667437
 

Stoo

Well-known member
Dig Site 1138 said:
Oh, I'm not insisting that NorthEast India was the center of Thugee activity, but I am corroborating that it would be a likely place, as Kali is a very important deity there. And that would jibe with Indy, et al crashing in the mountains.

As to the other, not all Kali worshippers are Thuggee, but all Thuggee are Kali worshippers.

Except, I guess they weren't, since many of them seem to have also been Sikhs and Muslims, both of whom are monotheists. :confused:
Kudos, Dig Site...In Indy's world, we must accept that North East India was the centre of activity even though it's not true. (Though the location of Mayapore / Pankot is DEFINITELY northeast!)
Dig Site 1138 said:
Still, the insistence on strangling and drowning, to kill without spilling blood is definitely tied to Kali Ma. It should be reiterated that Kali and Kali worship are not inherently evil. The Thuggee are a murder cult.
In another thread, I tried explaining this to a certain Ravenhead (Walton) but he refused to believe it based on the fact that the Kali statue in "Temple of Doom" *looked* evil, therefore it *must* be evil. (He didn't want to listen...:rolleyes:)
dr.jones1986 said:
The Ultimate Guide actually gives an approximate location of Pankot Palace. The village of Mayapore is located south of the Himalayas, along the Yamuna river. Delhi is further south, also along the Yamuna river. Pankot is East of Mayapore, along the Ganges river, which could be the river Mola Ram fell into. The Yamuna could be the river Indy's raft ended up in. This geography makes sense, because Delhi would be south of Mayapore and Pankot is East, which is heading out of the way.
Good for you and silly me, Dr.Jones1986!(y) I never even thought of checking the "Ultimate Guide"!:eek: Indeed, there is a map & red line which (sort of) makes sense but there is enough conflicting reference to state that Mola Ram did NOT fall into the Ganges.

According to the TEXT in the "Ultimate Guide", the trio land in the Pindari river and Pankot is alongside the Yamuna River but the text doesn't correspond with the real geography.:eek: (A new thread is in order!):whip:
Montana Smith said:
Has Bob Murch of the wonderful Canadian "Pulp Figures" 28mm miniatures company been reading this thread?
Judging by certain references, it's quite possible that B.Murch is reading these Thug-related threads here at The Raven. (Possible - yes. Probable - who knows?):confused:
Bob Murch said:
Inspired by the old Hammer film 'Stranglers of Bombay' as well as the classic 'Gunga Din',these figs will be underway this winter. I am thinking there will be a pack of stranglers, a pack armed with picks, shovels and other improvised weapons and one armed with rifles.
I understand that Mr. Murch is into pulp stuff but he is off the mark a bit. (Most notably, a Thug pack being armed with pick-axes!)
 

Dig Site 1138

New member
Thanks for the kudos, Stoo!

Stoo said:
I understand that Mr. Murch is into pulp stuff but he is off the mark a bit. (Most notably, a Thug pack being armed with pick-axes!)

Ah! But (despite the preference for strangling) the Thugs in the old film "Gunga Dinn" Are mostly armed with picks! (sorry, I tried to find a photo of them, but no luck!)

That Kali worship was on the rise during the Thuggee attacks of 1857 makes perfect sense to me. Since Kali is the goddess of Destruction, meaning she clears away the old to make way for the new, she's an ideal patron for a populace who wishes to cast off their Imperial British rulers. ;)
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Stoo said:
Judging by certain references, it's quite possible that B.Murch is reading these Thug-related threads here at The Raven. (Possible - yes. Probable - who knows?):confused:

I understand that Mr. Murch is into pulp stuff but he is off the mark a bit. (Most notably, a Thug pack being armed with pick-axes!)

I did wonder about the pick axes, but gave him the benefit of the doubt: thought that maybe not all murders would be ceremonial in nature.

Dig Site 1138 said:
Ah! But (despite the preference for strangling) the Thugs in the old film "Gunga Dinn" Are mostly armed with picks! (sorry, I tried to find a photo of them, but no luck!)

Not having ever seen the film, I didn't know Bob Murch was taking that as his reference, but that would also tally with the Thugs in TOD. It would be difficult to defeat an army, armed only with lengths of silk!
 

Stoo

Well-known member
Dig Site 1138 said:
Ah! But (despite the preference for strangling) the Thugs in the old film "Gunga Dinn" Are mostly armed with picks! (sorry, I tried to find a photo of them, but no luck!)
As I noted back in post #15 of this very thread:
"Another plus for "Gunga Din" is that it features a Thug pick-axe. Even though it wasn't used as a weapon like in the movie, the pick-axe is an important part of their culture. Will get into that later..."

I LOVE "Gunga Din" and have both the original and the colourized version. Yes, the film has a few pickaxes here & there but nearly ALL of the Thugs in the film fight with either rifles or swords. This is wholly inaccurate (like "Temple of Doom" where they also use rifles, swords plus bows & arrows)! There was never an army of Thugs since they operated in small gangs.

A Thug pickaxe was NOT used as a weapon so "Gunga Din" doesn't portray them properly. It's sole purpose was to dig small graves for the intended victims (the Thug leader even says, "Give them their burial picks.") and when not in use for that reason, would be buried under the ground. The pickaxe was a sacred item, initiated in an elaborate ceremony after it was forged and there were all kinds of rules surrounding its treatment & handling.
Dig Site 1138 said:
That Kali worship was on the rise during the Thuggee attacks of 1857 makes perfect sense to me. Since Kali is the goddess of Destruction, meaning she clears away the old to make way for the new, she's an ideal patron for a populace who wishes to cast off their Imperial British rulers. ;)
Thuggee attacks of 1857?:confused: Despite a couple of attempts to resurface, the cult was essentially wiped out by that time. Even though they hated the British, it was against the Thuggee's own rules to attack Europeans. Their targets were mainly rich, Indian travellers. The Indian Mutiny/Sepoy Rebellion of 1857 was not related to the Thuggee (which is another point about "Temple of Doom" I've been meaning to discuss) and the reason it began is a fascinating story...

As for Kali clearing away the old for the new, I also tried explaining that in the other thread where a Ravener was equating Kali with Satan as "a distinct evil entity"! I have no idea if traditional Hindu worship of Kali was on the rise in 1857 or not but it wouldn't surprise me.:)
Montana Smith said:
I did wonder about the pick axes, but gave him the benefit of the doubt: thought that maybe not all murders would be ceremonial in nature.

Not having ever seen the film, I didn't know Bob Murch was taking that as his reference, but that would also tally with the Thugs in TOD. It would be difficult to defeat an army, armed only with lengths of silk!
My initial comment was aimed at Murch's idea to create "a pack armed with picks" because not every Thug carried one. Only one or two Thugs in each group carried the pickaxe/s and this member/s was specifically selected. (Since he's going the pulp route he's free to do as he chooses but I thought it was worth pointing out.)

Montana, you haven't seen "Gunga Din"? What are you waiting for? It's one of the greatest adventure films ever made. Go rent it now!:whip:
 

Dig Site 1138

New member
Sorry, I got carried away. I should have said:

"The idea that Kali worship might be on the rise during the rebellion of 1857 makes perfect sense to me. "

It's not 100% certain, however, that the Thugs were gone after they were officially pronounced as such in 1837. There is a photo of "Thugs" circulating on the net which is dated to 1868.

Oddly, my 1957 set of World Book Encyclopedias seems to think the Thuggee are still active at the date of publication.
 

Stoo

Well-known member
It's my understanding that the abolishment of the cult spanned several years, from the late 1830s into the early 1850s (which is why I wrote "essentially" wiped out by 1857). I once read somehwere that they were at least 2 other attempts to resurface after that but can't remember the exact dates. 1868 could be one of them because I *think* the last known activity was sometime in the early 1870s. ("Gunga Din" takes place c.1890-1895 which is much too late.) Wish I could find those other dates...

That is odd about your 1957 World Book, though!:eek:

Another thing about the pickaxes is that it apperas no known examples seem to have to survived to this day. All we have are written descriptions from the contemporary literature.:(
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Stoo said:
As I noted back in post #15 of this very thread:
"Another plus for "Gunga Din" is that it features a Thug pick-axe. Even though it wasn't used as a weapon like in the movie, the pick-axe is an important part of their culture. Will get into that later..."

I LOVE "Gunga Din" and have both the original and the colourized version. Yes, the film has a few pickaxes here & there but nearly ALL of the Thugs in the film fight with either rifles or swords. This is wholly inaccurate (like "Temple of Doom" where they also use rifles, swords plus bows & arrows)! There was never an army of Thugs since they operated in small gangs.

A Thug pickaxe was NOT used as a weapon so "Gunga Din" doesn't portray them properly. It's sole purpose was to dig small graves for the intended victims (the Thug leader even says, "Give them their burial picks.") and when not in use for that reason, would be buried under the ground. The pickaxe was a sacred item, initiated in an elaborate ceremony after it was forged and there were all kinds of rules surrounding its treatment & handling.

Very interesting, Stoo. I knew nothing of the significance of the pick axes.

Stoo said:
My initial comment was aimed at Murch's idea to create "a pack armed with picks" because not every Thug carried one. Only one or two Thugs in each group carried the pickaxe/s and this member/s was specifically selected. (Since he's going the pulp route he's free to do as he chooses but I thought it was worth pointing out.)

Good points. By "pack" he meant a set of 4-5 figures, but the pulp route would undoubtedly involve a "pack of Thugs", too!
 

Stoo

Well-known member
Stoo said:
It's my understanding that the abolishment of the cult spanned several years, from the late 1830s into the early 1850s.
Whoops, I meant to write late 1820s (not 30s).:eek:
Montana Smith said:
Very interesting, Stoo. I knew nothing of the significance of the pick axes.
Apparently the picks even had some magical properties which are extremely hard to believe. (I can elaborate if you wish.) What I want to know is the significance of the 7 red dots which ran in a line from the heads of the blades to their tips.

Thanks for clarifying what Bob Murch might have meant by "packs".:hat: After you see "Gunga Din", watch "The Party" with Peter Sellers (if you haven't already) because it comically recreates the famous climax.:D
 

Dig Site 1138

New member
I just found this online:

The following is the wild and startling legend upon which the Thugs found the divine origin of their sect. They believe that, in the earliest ages of the world, a gigantic demon infested the earth, and devoured mankind as soon as they were created. He was of so tall a stature, that when he strode through the most unfathomable depths of the great sea, the waves, even in tempest, could not reach above his middle. His insatiable appetite for human flesh almost unpeopled the world, until Bhawanee, Kalee, or Davee, the goddess of the Thugs, determined to save mankind by the destruction of the monster. Nerving herself for the encounter, she armed herself with an immense sword; and, meeting with the demon, she ran him through the body. His blood flowed in torrents as he fell dead at her feet; but from every drop there sprang up another monster, as rapacious and as terrible as the first. Again the goddess upraised her massive sword, and hewed down the hellish brood by hundreds; but the more she slew, the more numerous they became. Every drop of their blood generated a demon; and, although the goddess endeavoured to lap up the blood ere it sprang into life, they increased upon her so rapidly, that the labour of killing became too great for endurance. The perspiration rolled down her arms in large drops, and she was compelled to think of some other mode of exterminating them. In this emergency, she created two men out of the perspiration of her body, to whom she confided the holy task of delivering the earth from the monsters. To each of the men she gave a handkerchief, and showed them how to kill without shedding blood. From her they learned to tie the fatal noose; and they became, under her tuition, such expert stranglers, that, in a very short space of time, the race of demons became extinct.

When there were no more to slay, the two men sought the great goddess, in order to return the handkerchiefs. The grateful Bhawanee desired that they would retain them, as memorials of their heroic deeds; and in order that they might never lose the dexterity that they had acquired in using them, she commanded that, from thenceforward, they should strangle men. These were the two first Thugs, and from them the whole race have descended. To the early Thugs the goddess was more direct in her favours, than she has been to their successors. At first, she undertook to bury the bodies of all the men they slew and plundered, upon the condition that they should never look back to see what she was doing. The command was religiously observed for many ages, and the Thugs relied with implicit faith upon the promise of Bhawanee; but as men became more corrupt, the ungovernable curiosity of a young Thug offended the goddess, and led to the withdrawal of a portion of her favour. This youth, burning with a desire to see how she made her graves, looked back, and beheld her in the act, not of burying, but of devouring, the body of a man just strangled. Half of the still palpitating remains was dangling over her lips. She was so highly displeased that she condemned the Thugs, from that time forward, to bury their victims themselves. Another account states that the goddess was merely tossing the body in the air; and that, being naked, her anger was aggravated by the gaze of mortal eyes upon her charms. Before taking a final leave of her devotees, she presented them with one of her teeth for a pickaxe, one of her ribs for a knife, and the hem of her garment for a noose. She has not since appeared to human eyes.

The original tooth having been lost in the lapse of ages, new pickaxes have been constructed, with great care and many ceremonies, by each considerable gang of Thugs, to be used in making the graves of strangled travellers. The pickaxe is looked upon with the utmost veneration by the tribe. A short account of the process of making it, and the rites performed, may be interesting, as showing still further their gloomy superstition. In the first place, it is necessary to fix upon a lucky day. The chief Thug then instructs a smith to forge the holy instrument: no other eye is permitted to see the operation. The smith must engage in no other occupation until it is completed, and the chief Thug never quits his side during the process. When the instrument is formed, it becomes necessary to consecrate it to the especial service of Bhawnee. Another lucky day is chosen for this ceremony, care being had in the mean time that the shadow of no earthly thing fall upon the pickaxe, as its efficacy would be for ever destroyed. A learned Thug then sits down; and turning his face to the west, receives the pickaxe in a brass dish. After muttering some incantation, he throws it into a pit already prepared for it, where it is washed in clear water. It is then taken out, and washed again three times; the first time in sugar and water, the second in sour milk, and the third in spirits. It is then dried, and marked from the head to the point with seven red spots. This is the first part of the ceremony: the second consists in its purification by fire. The pickaxe is again placed upon the brass dish, along with a cocoa-nut, some sugar, cloves, white sandal-wood, and other articles. A fire of the mango tree, mixed with dried cow-dung, is then kindled; and the officiating Thug, taking the pickaxe with both hands, passes it seven times through the flames.

It now remains to be ascertained whether the goddess is favourable to her followers. For this purpose, the cocoa-nut is taken from the dish and placed upon the ground. The officiating Thug, turning to the spectators, and holding the axe uplifted, asks, "Shall I strike?" Assent being given, he strikes the nut with the but-end of the axe, exclaiming, "All hail! mighty Davee! great mother of us all!" The spectators respond, "All hail! mighty Davee! and prosper thy children, the Thugs!"

If the nut is severed at the first blow, the goddess is favourable; if not, she is unpropitious: all their labour is thrown away, and the ceremony must be repeated upon some more fitting occasion. But if the sign be favourable, the axe is tied carefully in a white cloth and turned towards the west, all the spectators prostrating themselves before it. It is then buried in the earth, with its point turned in the direction the gang wishes to take on their approaching expedition. If the goddess desires to warn them that they will be unsuccessful, or that they have not chosen the right track, the Thugs believe that the point of the axe will veer round, and point to the better way. During an expedition, it is entrusted to the most prudent and exemplary Thug of the party: it is his care to hold it fast. If by any chance he should let it fall, consternation spreads through the gang: the goddess is thought to be offended; the enterprise is at once abandoned; and the Thugs return home in humiliation and sorrow, to sacrifice to their gloomy deity, and win back her estranged favour. So great is the reverence in which they hold the sacred axe, that a Thug will never break an oath that he has taken upon it. He fears that, should he perjure himself, his neck would be so twisted by the offended Bhawanee as to make his face turn to his back; and that, in the course of a few days, he would expire in the most excruciating agonies.

It's from "Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds
By Charles Mackay"

I found it online here:

http://robotics.caltech.edu/~mason/Delusions/epdatmoc.html

the relevant chapter (which covers even MORE about the Thuggee cult) is called "The Thugs, or Phansigars"
 

Stoo

Well-known member
To add to that, "The Thugs or Phansigars of India", is a 2-volume book which compiles documents written by Thug-suppresor, Sleeman, himself.

Anyway, what you have quoted explains the intiation ceremony of the pickaxe and one of its magical properties (turning direction while buried underground). There were also certain conditions as to how it should be buried which aren't mentioned there. Another unbelievable magical property is that sometimes Thugs would hide the pickaxes in wells and they would surface on their own when needed!:eek:
 

Dig Site 1138

New member
Well, real or exaggerated, these guys were practically begging to become adventure movie villains! Not that, of course they had ever heard of movies or considered themselves villains. ;)
 
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