Why are people so hard on Indy IV?

Dr. Gonzo

New member
Henry W Jones said:
Who said anything about preferring Skull over the others? Where are you seeing that? Are you saying if you like a good steak you can't enjoy a burger a McDonald's? Especially if you haven't ate in a while? Plus, I didn't ask you.

Raiders112390 said:
Basically KOTCS is one of the worst films ever made, on par with Plan 9 From Outer Space, and if you disagree, you've got no credibility.

I'm sorry... I thought we were talking about f̶o̶l̶k̶l̶o̶r̶e̶ taste.

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Montana Smith

Active member
Dr. Gonzo said:
I'm sorry... I thought we were talking about f̶o̶l̶k̶l̶o̶r̶e̶ taste.

Indeed.

A little while ago my mouldy burger was hijacked by a China Smack (whatever that is).

So, into the breech once more with gay abandon.

Indiana Jones: Best Before End 1989.


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Udvarnoky

Well-known member
Joss Whedon said:
"A movie has to be complete within itself; it can't just build off the first one or play variations. You know that thing in Temple of Doom where they revisit the shooting trick? ... That's what you don't want. And I feel that's what all of culture is becoming -- it's becoming that moment."

While I agree with Whedon's point, I think the Temple of Doom gag is a really bad example to illustrate it, because it's completely self-contained and harmless. The joke works perfectly in context and is a nice little payoff of Willie losing Indy's gun in the teaser. If you hadn't seen Raiders and therefore won't register the tiny reprisal of the Cairo chase theme in the soundtrack, you don't miss the joke, just the extra layer.

If you must indulge in callbacks, I actually think the unobtrusive way Temple did it is an example to aspire to.
 

Pale Horse

Moderator
Staff member
Udvarnoky said:
If you must indulge in callbacks, I actually think the unobtrusive way Temple did it is an example to aspire to.

The argument you present has merit, but I would use the Ark's reference in Last Crusade, in the tunnels...as a much better example.
 

Udvarnoky

Well-known member
Why? Temple's at least gets a laugh. The ark one is far more point-blank, contributes nothing and requires dialog.
 

Spurlock

New member
Out of all the films I've watched, the first one to ever leave me disappointed was KotCS (of course I've grown a lot since then, been disappointed many more times after). I was that kid that wanted to be an archaeologist, who was only a bit older than Indy was in the YIJCs. I'm not sure why, but somehow it had managed to disappoint a never disappointed child before.

But as I watch it now, aside from all the problems, CGI or other, I find they just copied the Indy equation without giving it anything new. It was essentially LC done worse. Now the actual MacGuffin wasn't too bad, and could've been really cool, but I think it relied too heavily on nostalgia, and they tried to make it revoke even more by having similar scenes and plot devices and characters.

LC: Henry Sr. sends home journal to Indy to use it and keep out of hands of Nazis
CS: Marion sends Indy Oxley's journal to use and keep out of hands of Russians

LC: Elsa betrays Jones even though she disagrees with some of their morals
CS: Mac betrays Jones even though he disagrees with their morals (com vs cap)

LC: Jones travels to place where father had been working to understand journal
CS: Jones travels to place where Oxley had been kept to understand journal

I can keep going, but I'd rather not.

The movie just seemed like a weak attempt. And while I like it for what it is now, it still can't ever compare.
 

Dr.Jonesy

Well-known member
Henry W Jones said:
Who said anything about preferring Skull over the others?

I rank it second. So, me. And many others rank it above one of the other films or more - including many here.

Raiders112390 said:
Basically KOTCS is one of the worst films ever made, on par with Plan 9 From Outer Space, and if you disagree, you've got no credibility.

So...liking/loving a mostly well reviewed/received entry into a well known franchise makes someone not to mention having their own tastes means they have no credibility? Yeah, you're a bright one!
:hat:

There's having an opinion - and then there's being a jerk about it with a mob-mentality like you've got. Just sayin'. Besides, if you try to state that Kingdom is one of the worst films ever made - you lack credibility because it's evident you need to see more films. And this goes for anyone who says Temple is among the worst as well, which I know some people who have said that.

Spurlock said:
I find they just copied the Indy equation without giving it anything new.

Damned if you do - damned if you don't. Among a few who don't care for the film - I've read that they feel Kingdom was too radically different than the previous films and they strayed too far. And now you're saying it didn't do anything new. So, you really can't win with a few fans.

It offered plenty new:

-New decade setting/style/villains.
-Sci-Fi angle to the franchise.
-The beginning of the film is of significant relevance to the overall plot.
-Indy having domestic troubles at home forcing him to leave the US.
-Features the US as a more prominent setting.
-A female as the lead villain - not to mention the lead villain claiming to have supernatural abilities, themselves.
-Mayan influence in the film's plot.

That's just off the top of my head. It stuck to the style/feel of the films whilst keeping the tried and true formula intact and sprinkling in new elements. Unfortunately, it also made Temple even more of an odd guy out being the only one out of four films to lack said formula!
:p
 
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kongisking

Active member
So, watched KOTCS again about an hour ago, and something occurred to me about the infamous monkeys-attack scene. If you pay attention, you see that the little guys aren't attacking or being hostile, they're just excitedly swarming around them. Yes, it unfortunately looks a lot like their attacking at first glance, but I paid really close attention in that moment, and while I'm not saying the moment is not still goofy and odd, at least it's not the random animals-doing-the-right-thing deal I interpreted it as.

Otherwise, man is this a charming movie. I hadn't watched it all the way through in a while, so this was a nice refresher. I actually love the banter in this movie. The SW prequels had a shortage fun characters-bouncing-off-each-other unlike this, and the chemistry between Mutt and Indy is really endearing and fun. I'd say the movie is A-Okay with me up until the gang arrives at Akator. I'm smart enough to admit that climax, while not ungodly jarring or frustrating like the one in that last Wolverine film, doesn't make lots of sense, with plenty of stuff just randomly happening.
 
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S. Dakota Jones

New member
After seeing it for the first time when it came out, up until a month or so ago I could not bring myself to watch it. Since then I've watched it a couple of times and it gets a little better each time, well I guess I accept it a little more each time:hat: . I DO like it up until the cemetary but it really goes downhill from there for me...but I watch it cause it's Indiana Jones...more than I can say about the SW prequels...those I don't watch unless it's with the kids.
 

kongisking

Active member
S. Dakota Jones said:
After seeing it for the first time when it came out, up until a month or so ago I could not bring myself to watch it. Since then I've watched it a couple of times and it gets a little better each time, well I guess I accept it a little more each time:hat: . I DO like it up until the cemetary but it really goes downhill from there for me...but I watch it cause it's Indiana Jones...more than I can say about the SW prequels...those I don't watch unless it's with the kids.

KOTCS is, if nothing else, definitely more competently written than the prequels, in my opinion. Also, it benefits from being a chronologically new story, so there was more of a sense of discovery and mystery as to what exactly would happen.
 

Raiders90

Well-known member
Is it "OK" to like KOTCS?

It seems by some on this forum, and in a certain subset of our culture (Think IMDB, fanboy type places in general), you're looked down upon if you like KOTCS or thought it was good. That it's most vehement haters--a loud vocal minority, loud enough to seem the majority--have deemed it sort of a film to be hated with little to no redeeming qualities, and that it's not socially "OK" to accept it as canon or like it. Basically, that KOTCS is a film that is cool to hate, even moreso at this point than the SW prequels.
 

IAdventurer01

Well-known member
Raiders112390 said:
Basically, that KOTCS is a film that is cool to hate, even moreso at this point than the SW prequels.

Very much so! If you present yourself as an Indy fan and present a somewhat positive opinion of the film, you catch many off guard.

At a recent convention, I was in costume and some people from a website wanted to to an in-character interview with me and were clearly goading me into making some snippy critique of my "most recent adventure." They were a bit surprised and disappointed when I told them I thought it went pretty well. Also that, "I got married to a fine woman because of it. How do you think I thought it went?" :p
 

kongisking

Active member
Raiders112390 said:
It seems by some on this forum, and in a certain subset of our culture (Think IMDB, fanboy type places in general), you're looked down upon if you like KOTCS or thought it was good. That it's most vehement haters--a loud vocal minority, loud enough to seem the majority--have deemed it sort of a film to be hated with little to no redeeming qualities, and that it's not socially "OK" to accept it as canon or like it. Basically, that KOTCS is a film that is cool to hate, even moreso at this point than the SW prequels.

You're really confusing me, feller. Aren't you one of the premiere haters of the movie on here? Ahem:

Raiders112390 said:
Basically KOTCS is one of the worst films ever made, on par with Plan 9 From Outer Space, and if you disagree, you've got no credibility.

So...pick a side, and quit being a Mac!

Very much so! If you present yourself as an Indy fan and present a somewhat positive opinion of the film, you catch many off guard.

IAdventurer01 said:
At a recent convention, I was in costume and some people from a website wanted to to an in-character interview with me and were clearly goading me into making some snippy critique of my "most recent adventure." They were a bit surprised and disappointed when I told them I thought it went pretty well. Also that, "I got married to a fine woman because of it. How do you think I thought it went?"

That's hand-shake worthy. I think part of why I defend KOTCS so hard and get so annoyed by the haters is that I get a strong elitist impression about the whole thing. Like, if you enjoy the movie for what it is in spite of whatever flaws it has, there's this heavy implication from these people that you're a half-assed Indiana Jones fan, who just doesn't know what makes the old movies good, and is a naive child with horrible taste, and yadda yadda yadda.

When I'm being tolerant and like a less-than-amazing installment of a series I love, and that makes people mock and question my 'right' to be a fan...that's when I fight back.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
kongisking said:
So...pick a side, and quit being a Mac!

There are three (or more) sides. Love, hate and all the stages in between.

My position has always been in the middle, though the bad does outweigh the good.

In a post-modern world you really don't want to pick a side, but remain fluid as different possibilities present themselves.

We could just say that Indy 4, like the prequels before it, was an inferior product to the originals in terms of storyline, characters and acting.

They are also the product of middle/old age and over-exuberance. It was the years rather than the mileage that changed Lucas' perspective to make Indiana Jones (and Han Solo) a more responsible and less murderous character. And caused the enemies of the Jedi to become simple robots, because it's not right to show children that supposedly good men will slaughter sentient living things willy nilly.

While the prequels have very little appealing going on within them for enthusiasts of the original trilogy, Indy 4 does have Harrison Ford reprising the role and doing his best to hold things together.

It was a noble attempt but after Doomtown I found it hard to maintain any real interest and keep off the fast forward button.

If you were desperate to see Indiana Jones again on the big screen then KOTCS might be something you'd find hard to give up. Just as devotees for an Indy 5 will find it hard to give up on that one.

I wasn't bothered either way when the adverts for KOTCS starting appearing on television. My instinct was that it was a novelty to have Harrison Ford reprising the role and playing up the factor of his age. His maturity was the gimmick, but 'Indiana Jones' the character was the prime selling factor. I didn't put myself in the market for buying any of it until I got into the toys.

I waited until a cheap DVD turned up, because I didn't have enough interest to fork out retail for the film.

I have similar feelings towards Star Wars VII. I'm expecting the worst because the glory days for both these properties were the '70s and '80s. It's hard to recapture the same spirit and energy when the world has changed so much in the interim.
 

Face_Melt

Well-known member
Indy 4 was great.

The people that do not enjoy the film simply do not understand both the film itself, or the entire series.
The original trilogy was set in the 1930's, therefore it was modeled after the adventure serials that came out during that time frame. 19 years later, Indy 4 was in the 50's - therefore it was modeled after the films that came out during that time as well, Sci-Fi "B" movies. I am not sure what film you guys watched but Indy 4 certainly felt like a "B" movie to me.

Also screw the haters, they are in a very small minority, Indy 4 was very well received. Don't believe me?

RottenTomatoes Score; 78%/User Score of 3.5.
-Empire Magazine's Top 500 Films of All Time voted by readers/website users
-Cannes Film Festival = Standing Ovation
-MovieWeb Fan/Critic Accumulated score; 82% and a 3.8 "Great" score.
-CinemaScore= B+ average
-MetaCritic Score - 65 (4 Pts less than acclaimed Avengers) 7.1 User
-MovieFone 3.5 Stars Audience/4.0 Stars Critics
-Yahoo! Movies User Score - 4/5 Stars/B
-BoxOfficeMojo Surveys; 41% gave it an A, 37%; B. Compared to Temple of Doom's
37% A ratings, with each film; having the same number of votes, relatively.
-Fandango Critic/Fan Accumulated Scores of Hundreds of Votes/Reviews = Go!
-AICN - Two 'A' reviews. "Indiana Jones 4 is our childhood captured in perfection."
-Fandango Users/Critics Rated it 'Go Now!
-Nominated Best Action Movie at the 2009 Critics' Choice Awards.
-The Visual Effects Society nominated it for Best Single Visual Effect of the Year, Best Outstanding Matte Paintings, Best Models and Miniatures, and Best Created Environment in a Feature Motion Picture.
-Nominated by Saturn Awards for Best Science Fiction Film, Best Director, Best Actor, Best Supporting Actor, Best Costumes and Best Special Effects.
-Entertainment Weekly Review A-
-NY Times Review- A
-Coming Soon reviews = 8/10 and 7/10
-Billboard Review- B
-Saturday; Evening Post; - A
-Roger Ebert - 3/4 Stars
-Most Watched Film on TV - 2009/2010
-Top 3 DVD sales - 2008/09
-78% Voted Good to Excellent/Perfect at The Raven Net forums - 260+Voters.
-ComCast Cable Score - 3 out of 4 Stars
-SlashFilmSurvey; 24,356 votes, 83% voted 'loved it'.
-TheRaven - 78% out of 210 voters scored it a 7 and above out of 10. 8-9 were the most common answers.
-IndyCast - Reviews - 86.5% Positive from Listeners

Voted into Empire's Top 500 Films of All Time!


Roger Ebert gave the film 3.5 stars out of 4, a rating he also gave to The Last Crusade. Ebert argued that the only critical criterion for judging the latest film was comparing it to the previous three. He found it "same old, same old", but that was what "I want it to be."[117] Leonard Maltin also gave the film 3 1/2 stars out of 4, although he had only given 2 stars to Temple of Doom and 2 1/2 to Last Crusade. "After a 19-year hiatus", Maltin wrote, "Indy returns with the same brand of high adventure that marked the original Raiders of the Lost Ark."

The film was nominated for Best Action Movie at the 2009 Critics' Choice Awards.The Visual Effects Society nominated it for Best Single Visual Effect of the Year (the valley destruction), Best Outstanding Matte Paintings, Best Models and Miniatures, and Best Created Environment in a Feature Motion Picture (the inside of the temple). The film ranks 453rd on Empire's 2008 list of the 500 greatest movies of all time.At the 51st Grammy Awards, John Williams won an award for the Mutt Williams theme. It was nominated at the Saturn Awards for Best Science Fiction Film, Best Director, Best Actor, Best Supporting Actor, Best Costumes and Best Special Effects. It won Best Costumes.

Rotten Tomatoes Consensus =

Though the plot elements are certainly familiar, Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull still delivers the thrills and Harrison Ford's return in the title role is more than welcome.

ComingSoon.net -

"Raiders" was best followed by "Last Crusade," "Kingdom of the Crystal Skull" in a very close third, and "Temple of Doom" rounding out the four.

The film inspired scenes in Call of Duty; Black Ops and Fallout; New Vegas

EmpireOnline -

Does it feel like a real relation? Yes indeed. It feels very much like an Indiana Jones movie, despite Indy's bus-pass age and the crowded castlist, it's still the same old Indy (literally), cracking his whip and punching baddies in the jaw. Good sequel especially 20 years older!

Vanity Fair - 2008

At best, The Crystal Skullâ was an interesting new way to enhance Indy with sci-fi. After all, the fourth film cleared almost $800m at the worldwide box office, so something connected with the rest of the world.


Sean Connery himself stated that he liked the film, describing it as "rather good and rather long."


Spielberg politely dismissed the more negative reviews of the film, saying, "I'm very happy with the movie. I always have been."



Also people are WAY too hard on the Nuke the fridge scene. He could have survived it, he could NOT have survived the Raft scene from Temple of Doom.

http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Indiana-Jones-Actually-Could-Have-Survi ved-Nuke-Fridge-35710.html


But Reel Physics, a Web series linked by Badass Digest, analyzed the scene and came to the conclusion that Jones actually could have survived the blast if he in fact stashed his arthritic body in a lead-lined fridge. Their theory also takes into account the weight of the appliance, which would contribute to the forces that would help Jones survive the blast and the toss. So science proves that nuking the fridge is an accurate stunt. Put that in your pipe and smoke it, George Lucas haters!


http://indianajones.wikia.com/wiki/MythBusters



Episode 20 (Season 3) "Escape Slide Parachute" - The MythBusters team tested the plausibility of surviving a fall from an airplane in a life raft, as depicted in Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. After 3 drops with their test dummy in a raft, they determined that it was not possible to survive as shown in the film, and called the myth "busted".
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Face_Palm said:
The people that do not enjoy the film simply do not understand both the film itself, or the entire series.

I would say that most of the people here who didn't enjoy it understand the intention of the film and the series well enough. This isn't news to aficionados.

Many did not enjoy it from the point of its execution.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Face_Palm said:
What about the film did not feel like a "B" movie?

Was it supposed to "feel like a 'B' movie"?

B movies were low budget and inferior by definition. KOTCS feels like a big budget blockbuster incorporating 1950s B movie elements to evoke a period and genre.

Likewise the original trilogy didn't feel like 1930s or 1940s cliffhanger serials, but big budget movies paying homage to those serials from a contemporary perspective: adult interpretations of childhood nostalgia.

The real fun I find with KOTCS is not the movie itself (apart from Doomtown and the refrigerator which are the best parts), but in seeing the sources and original inspirations from which its various elements sprang.
 

Face_Melt

Well-known member
During the late 1970s, George Lucas and Steven Spielberg made a deal with Paramount Pictures for five Indiana Jones films. Following the 1989 release of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, Lucas let the series end as he felt he could not think of a good plot device to drive the next installment, and chose instead to produce The Young Indiana Jones Chronicles for TV, which explored the character in his early years.[ Harrison Ford played Indiana in one episode, narrating his adventures in 1920 Chicago. When Lucas shot Ford's role in December 1992, he realized the scene opened up the possibility of a film with an older Indiana set in the 1950s. The film could reflect a science fiction 1950s B-movie, with aliens as the plot device. Meanwhile, Spielberg believed he was going to "mature" as a filmmaker after making the trilogy, and felt he would just produce any future installments

The film could reflect a science fiction 1950s B-movie
 
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