Abner Ravenwood in Last Crusade

Joe Brody

Well-known member
Deadlock said:
Here's my question: If Abner's alive, (and was in 1936) why didn't he involve himself in the proceedings of Raiders?

[Questioningly]Because Abner's other all-consuming passion was Shangri-La? Which I'm guessing he found and that's where he spent the 40's?
 

Deadlock

New member
Yeah, the supposed Ark/Nepal connection... That has ALWAYS bugged me. I've never heard of a plausible connection linking the two.

An earlier draft of the Raiders script made it sound like he was actively pursuing something related to the Ark there in Nepal, and was lost in an avalanche. but without that solid connection on-screen, you could posit that Abner had moved onto some other project (Shangri-la perhaps? :) ).
 

Paden

Member
If Ravenwood's quest for the Ark was, in actuality, a quest for some kind of inner peace, I think it's plausible that he could have encountered something in the Himalayan wilderness that, when coupled with years of being unable to finally lay hands on the "prize", could have steered Ravenwood in a new direction, pursuing something else that he believed could satisfy his soul. Or alternatively, he could have become an embittered hermit following a brush with death in Nepal, convinced that the Ark was unattainable and wanting nothing more to do with the world. If he was isolated, or embroiled in another quest, perhaps some time could have passed before he came to know that Jones had located the Ark. And, given that it was hidden away by the U.S. government, it could take several more years to locate it once again.

EDIT: The haunting by Belloq is an interesting idea and it really makes sense. Although Belloq certainly didn't care for Jones, his words to him in the Cairo saloon indicate that he had respect for him as a competitor. If the Ark were disturbed, Jones would be the one Belloq's tormented soul would seek out, recognizing that Jones respected the Ark's power and was the only one skillful enough to retrieve it a second time.
 
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Joe Brody

Well-known member
Paden said:
The haunting by Belloq is an interesting idea and it really makes sense. Although Belloq certainly didn't care for Jones, his words to him in the Cairo saloon indicate that he had respect for him as a competitor. If the Ark were disturbed, Jones would be the one Belloq's tormented soul would seek out, recognizing that Jones respected the Ark's power and was the only one skillful enough to retrieve it a second time.

Twisted Belloq would actually blame Indiana Jones for his tortured afterlife.
 

Joe Brody

Well-known member
roundshort said:
Come on Joe, i had the idea first . . .

roundshort, I hear you -- but Ark related stories have been kicked around for some time here. I just like the way Paden handled Ravenwood and the Israel issue -- which would be treat the Isreali's as wildcards who meddle with both sides (interesting that Spielberg is doing the Munich film which purportedly doesn't shy away from Israel's more, shall we say ambiguous actions).
 

qwerty

New member
bump

For all of those who can not find any intelegent subject here at the Raven bar here is a treat.
Once again. Well said Paden.
 
A treat for certain.... but a year old treat.

It might stand better as an example how this place has slumped of late.
(If indeed you agree at all that it has slumped)
 

chapter11

Well-known member
Just saw this on Wikipedia (so take it for what it's worth): "Although Abner Ravenwood (Marion's father) is never shown in any of the films, the prologue of an early draft of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade denotes the man in the Fedora hat as Abner."

Anyone know if this is true?
 

Violet

Moderator Emeritus
There was a thread about this in the archives here... Not bothered to link it now.

But yeah, I did find that interesting but I don't think in the final film it is Abner. Plus a bit weird if Indy went around dressing up like Marion's father. Lucas and Spielberg have used left-overs from the previous films before, so I guess that's where the speculation that Abner is in KOTCS.
 

indy34

New member
I doubt that it was Abner. Abner probably would have been the same as Indy "It belongs in a museum!" were as that guy was doing it for money.
 
Uhm... I really don't know... all I can say is that I remember quite clearly one thing that happens when Indy and his friend are hidden on the top of the cavern, spying the four treasure hunters. The young blonde guy who works for Fedora finds the Cross of Coronado and he brings it to him, screaming "I've found something Kurt (?) look what I've found!!" etc...

I've never understood what name exactly he says, but I remember something like "Kurt", or "Karth" maybe... does any other of you remember this thing?
 

Finn

Moderator
Staff member
The name he calls out is "Garth". And it's most likely directed at Fedora.

It still doesn't mean however that it couldn't possibly be Abner. Perhaps he was sort of working undercover, pretending to be one of Panama Hat's men and ready to let the Cross slide out of his hands because he had a bigger prize in his sights? It's a little far-fetched, I know, but would perfectly fit the mystery Fedora is. He appears to be nothing more than a mercenary, but seems to act very honorably towards Indy at the same time.

There's not much in the moral angle either. After all, Indy pulled off a pretty similar stunt when he was willing to let Nurhachi go for the diamond in ToD.

NOTE: There's no canonical evidence whatsoever to back up this little plotline I just came up with. Simply toying with the idea.
 

blueseattle

New member
The idea of it being Ravenwood would have been cool, had they fully intended it to be that way and thus developed the character to be indeed just that. However, I like it being some random explorer that obviously influenced Indiana.

However, the trick of it being an unknown explorer rather than Indy never worked on me. Even at the age of five in theaters, I knew Phoenix was Indiana. It's weird.

That was intentional, right? To make us believe that was Indiana, until he pulls his hat up and the other boyscout says, "Indiana."
 

Michael24

New member
Funny you mention that. At the time, I remember knowing River Phoenix was an actor who would be appearing as Indiana Jones in the new film. But I hadn't seen him before and had no idea what he looked like. So I thought it was Indiana in the cave until Fedora revealed his face. And I remember in the car afterwards on the way home saying, "Where was River Phoenix?" and my parents laughing and saying, "He played Indy in the whole opening."

Duh! LOL!!!!
 

Osceola

New member
blueseattle said:
That was intentional, right? To make us believe that was Indiana, until he pulls his hat up and the other boyscout says, "Indiana."
Yes, it was intentional. That's also why don't tell you the year until then. If they told us the year, we would know that that man is too old to be Indy at that time, and thus we would expect a young Indy. That's also the reason why we don't see his face.
 

No Ticket

New member
Seems like too much of a stretch that he would be his mentor later on. I always liked the idea that this chance encounter with a stranger who was a "bad guy" made Indy kind of want to be like him.

Still, was a cool idea, although I seriously doubt it's supposed to be Abner in LC.
 

indyflys_solo

New member
roundshort said:
Hmm, I like this, maybe a very dark, almost religous zealot Ravenwood, that has lost all sense of relaity, since he heard about the ark being discoverd etc. . .
Now, all we have to do is figure out how Jar-Jar is involved, George?

I know I'm entering into this reeaally late, but I couldn't resist: that's funny, roundshort. And I just want you guys to know I have a great amount of respect for you delving into the story like this... it's really impressive. And I'm sure Marion would really appreciate your caring enough about her dad to do a 5-page thread on his history. I like all your theories, but let me throw mine out there just for kicks:

I like the idea of "Fedora" being Abner; I hadn't thought of that before (although I had heard the script bit about Fedora's real name being Abner Ravenwood). I don't remember who it was (it may have been Paden), but one of you guys volunteered a theory that it was Abner and he recognized Indy years later by the hat. I really like that, although I don't know if I believe it. I don't think Abner was a real fanatic, although I believe his "obsession" with Tanis and the Ark was similar to Henry Jones Sr.'s Grail obsession. I think he taught Indy part of his "dark side of archaeology" thing, but I also think part of it was just Indy's inate proclivity for adventure.
I think the "falling-out" had more to do with Marion than archaeology, actually...

Someone once asked me what happened between Marion and Indy, and I pretty much said that they probably quarrelled about something stupid and ended up bitter and separate. But now, I don't know. I think they may have quarrelled, but it wasn't over something stupid. Something very big happened between them, and I don't know what it was. Lucas may not even know. But something happened; this is apparent just by their dialogue in the Raven Bar scene:

I learned to hate you in the last ten years!
I never meant to hurt you.
I was a child; I was in love. It was wrong and you knew it!
You knew what you were doing.
Now I do!


And in the Cairo marketplace, more proof of the fact that Marion was the reason for the "falling out":

Dad had you figured out a long time ago. He said you were a bum.
Oh, he's bein' generous.
The most gifted bum he ever trained. He loved you like a son, you know. Took a hell of a lot for you to alienate him.
Not much, just you.

I like the idea of reclaiming the Ark... you know, I watched the trailer today for Indy 4 and there was a scene in a warehouse...

Yeah, well. That's my two cent's worth. Keep up the awesome thread, guys... Marion would be proud!
 
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