Who was under the black sleep of Kali?

michael

Well-known member
Bump!

Any opinions on whether or not Chattar Lal was under the black sleep of Kali?

I think he was at times. Maybe he took sips (hits :p ) of it every so often, but that would open a bunch more questions of how one would react to it, or if small doses worked or if you grew used to the influences.

Maybe he and Mola Ram (who could both carry on a conversation if neeeded) gained a tolerance. They didn't seem to be under any influence. Indy is pretty much out of his mind after his first and only experience.

But the general 'evilness' of Lal was still there no matter how much he 'seemed' to be normal. Or maybe he was just an awful human being to begin with.

What do you think?
 

Goodeknight

New member
Mickiana said:
Indy never seems happy about the demise of the villians. At times he seems upset or disturbed. He's a strange character. He will dish out death when he has to, but he seems at least a little bit affected by the death of opponents.
keylan said:
Thats what makes Indy such a great hero. He only kills when he has no other option, but does feel remorse for the loss of life at his hands. Only a stone cold killer would feel other wise.
Well, Indy doesn't feel remorse when he blows away truckloads of Nazis in Last Crusade. His dad is shocked, but it's just another day at the office for Indy. He really only seems to feel remorse when it's a big/major bad guy like the chief temple guard or Donovan. Someone closer to his own ability and/or character. He sees his own potential fate when one of his close rivals meets an end.

As for Mola Ram, I say many years ago he was under the black sleep of Kali. When he was a Thugee newbie. He got indoctrinated and brainwashed and no longer has to drink the blood. That's why he's so aware and non-zombified. But perhaps being burned by the stone did shock him back to reality for a brief moment.

chr0n0naut said:
If they could convert Shorty why didn't they?
They needed the kids to be hard workers, not sleepy drones. If Shorty was under the black sleep, he couldn't dig as much.

michael said:
Any opinions on whether or not Chattar Lal was under the black sleep of Kali?
Not at all. Far too aware and in control. He was the mastermind.

ChattarLal.jpg
 

michael

Well-known member
goodeknight said:
Not at all. Far too aware and in control. He was the mastermind.

You're most likely correct, but Mola Ram sure did seem in control as well. And we all know that he WAS under the influence.
 

TheMutt92

New member
It is possible for Mola Ram to be under the black sleep and to also be in control. My explanation would be just that he's been under it long enough that it is who he is, and not the zombie state Indy is in.
 

Goodeknight

New member
TheMutt92 said:
It is possible for Mola Ram to be under the black sleep and to also be in control. My explanation would be just that he's been under it long enough that it is who he is, and not the zombie state Indy is in.

That's pretty much what I'm saying. He started out under the black sleep, got all the brainwashing he needed, and was turned to the dark side, pretty much permanently. Maybe he takes a few sips now and again for kicks, but it's not the main reason he's a baddie. He's been turned. He just has a brief glimpse of reality just before he falls.
 

Henry W Jones

New member
I have always looked at it as the bad guys are just that..... Bad Guys. And they use the blood on unwilling participants who get in the way. I'm sure the novel says otherwise. I haven't read it since Doom was in theaters. Me though, I like to think that at least Mola Ram and Lal are just some bad dudes with some serious anger issues.


As far as Shorty, I always got the impression the children were used as slaves until old enough to become useful followers. The maharajah needed to be controlled so was turned at a early age.
 

dr.jones1986

Active member
Henry W Jones said:
I have always looked at it as the bad guys are just that..... Bad Guys. And they use the blood on unwilling participants who get in the way. I'm sure the novel says otherwise. I haven't read it since Doom was in theaters. Me though, I like to think that at least Mola Ram and Lal are just some bad dudes with some serious anger issues.


As far as Shorty, I always got the impression the children were used as slaves until old enough to become useful followers. The maharajah needed to be controlled so was turned at a early age.

I look at it that way to. I don't think Mola Ram and Chatter Lal were brainwashed. I see Chatter Lal as using the thuggee as a way to through off the yoke of British Imperialism in India. Mola Ram is like any other power hungry cult leader. In order to make people join the cult against their will they use the black sleep of Kali Ma.
 

Stoo

Well-known member
BUMP.
chr0n0naut said:
I've just read the novelisation of ToD and it descibes Mola Ram as "looking as though he'd just come out of a nightmare" a second before he plummets to his death (after his hand is burned with the final Shankara stone). Indy even feels sorry for him.
Mickiana said:
I believe Mola Ram was under the black sleep of the Kali. But it seems that when he got burned by the Sankara stone he came out of the sleep, but then unfortunately fell to his death.
I totally disagree with this point of view for a reason nobody has mentioned thus far. Mola Ram doesn't snap back to reality while holding the flaming heart (and in the wide shot, there is a lot of flame). Surely, that would have woken him up!
 

The Drifter

New member
Stoo said:
BUMP.

I totally disagree with this point of view for a reason nobody has mentioned thus far. Mola Ram doesn't snap back to reality while holding the flaming heart (and in the wide shot, there is a lot of flame). Surely, that would have woken him up!

Damn good point, Stoo! But perhaps the same 'power' that granted him the ability to extract hearts also protected him from said magical flame?
 

indyclone25

Well-known member
The Drifter said:
Damn good point, Stoo! But perhaps the same 'power' that granted him the ability to extract hearts also protected him from said magical flame?
that is what i thought , mola ram is magical !!!! wooooo !:D
 

Stoo

Well-known member
The Drifter said:
Damn good point, Stoo! But perhaps the same 'power' that granted him the ability to extract hearts also protected him from said magical flame?
Or perhaps Mola wasn't under the Black Sleep at all. That is a much simpler explanation and it makes more sense (despite what is written in the novel about him waking up from a nightmare when being burned by the stone).

I can appreciate the fact that the authour, James Kahn, tried to inject/suggest something deeper into Mola Ram's character but it's possible that he didn't really think it through or didn't realize how much flame the burning heart would produce in the finished film. (I would check the novel to see how he wrote the sacrifice scene but don't have it with me at the moment.)
 

lndianaJones

New member
In the novel it is described just as it was in the movie "Mola Ram held the heart high: still beating, dripping blood, it began to smoke. Then it, too, burst into flame. And then it disappeared." I just read the book to my daughter as her bed-time story. She loved it.
 

Udvarnoky

Well-known member
Stoo said:
I can appreciate the fact that the authour, James Kahn, tried to inject/suggest something deeper into Mola Ram's character but [..]

The kicker here is that it's not an invention of the adaptations, but something Huyck and Katz inserted into the actual screenplay!

The blazing stones sear Mola Ram's flesh and he screams in pain. The light suddenly dies in his eyes and for one instant he looks at Indy as if awakened from a nightmare --

Mola Ram loses his balance and Indy grabs for the stones. He manages to clutch only one of them as Mola Ram screams and falls!

The idea isn't really underlined on the screen, leaving it up for the viewer to decide. Making Mola Ram and/or Chatter Lal the inherently evil machinator gives you a clear villain to root against that the alternative robs you of, but, that alternative also deepens the subject matter a bit.

Mickiana said:
I believe Mola Ram was under the black sleep of the Kali. But it seems that when he got burned by the Sankara stone he came out of the sleep, but then unfortunately fell to his death. A classic tale of tragedy. He brought about his own downfall, in this case, literally. Tragedy is also about avoiding redemption, hence he meets his doom even after he is released from the evil spell of the Kali. I will go as far as theorising that the same thing happened to the giant thugee guard. When Indy wacks him with a saw, the big fella drops the rock on his own head and this appears to wake him from his sleep. Fire may not be the only trauma that can do this. Unfortunately, by this time his sash has been snagged by the rock crusher and he has to carry on the path that he decided on - to his doom and paying for his evil ways with his life. These tales of tragedy seem to me to be the center point of the whole story while Indy is almost an unwitting pawn being thrown around in a game. Of course he has his own motivations and creates many consequences through his actions.

Mickiana said:
That's a point, but we don't know if they willingly drank the blood or were forced to. In the end, I think the whole being under the spell of the kali is a metaphor for having given up choice, or at least thinking there wasn't any choice left open to them. Who was the first to drink the blood of the Kali? Was it deliberate or unwitting? I will wager that it was a choice to go down a certain path, at least in its origins. People under the spell of the kali are like zombies and zombies are people who are largely unconscious, who have become automatons of their own desires or someone else's.

I really like your subtextual take on it!
 

Mickiana

Well-known member
Thanks. Rereading those posts I would like to elaborate. The zombie-like state is akin to a homicidal psychopathy, especially in Mola Ram. However the blood of Kali works, it effects are to drastically narrow the range of emotions to hate, anger, glee and there is a great lust for power also. Mola Ram verbalises his intentions well, obviously has intelligence and he is very charismatic having all the hallmarks of a typical cult leader. He seeks power for power's sake.
 

Darth Vile

New member
The immediate question that springs to mind is, if Mola Ram himself is under the influence of the 'black sleep', how come he's so articulate and erudite when the rest act like zombies?
 

Mickiana

Well-known member
Good question, Darth. Mola Ram didn't have the glazed eyed robotic thing happening, but then again neither did the guards. So it does call into question who was actually under the influence of the blood of Kali. Possibly Mola Ram, Chattar Lal and others were evil controllers who used the blood of Kali to spell bind others. But that doesn't gel either. The young prince was under the spell of the blood of Kali, yet he seemed to have all his wits about him. Maybe these nit pickings would require a subtler script unsuitable for B grade ol' ToD?!
 

Lao_Che

Active member
Stoo said:
Or perhaps Mola wasn't under the Black Sleep at all. That is a much simpler explanation and it makes more sense (despite what is written in the novel about him waking up from a nightmare when being burned by the stone).

Maybe he was so in deep he had to be burned by Shiva. ;) The reveal's not in Weyn's 2008 novel anyway.

Spielberg said that he injected humour to combat the dark tone of the film, I wonder if the Black Sleep'd Mola Ram was removed for the same reason.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Mola Ram was the chief villain, not a mere enslaved minion. He was evil sorceror to Marhan's good wizard, and powerful enough to defeat him and curse the village.

Mola knew what he was doing. His intent was to discover the missing Lingam. For that he required slaves for the mines and enslaved soldiers to enforce his will. The Black Sleep was simply a method of creating loyalty.

Hence Mola is dominant and fully aware, while Indy, the 'great white hero' becomes subservient and without free will.
 

Udvarnoky

Well-known member
lndianaJones said:
In the novel it is described just as it was in the movie "Mola Ram held the heart high: still beating, dripping blood, it began to smoke. Then it, too, burst into flame. And then it disappeared." I just read the book to my daughter as her bed-time story. She loved it.

Your relation gives "heart-warming" a whole new meaning!
 
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