How KOTCS could've been made better?

deckard24

New member
  • More of Akator!
  • Indy shooting someone ala Raiders, and more gunplay in general! I wanted to see some bad guys get blown away! There was barely any blood, unlike the first 3 films.
  • Some mere mention of Sallah, Shortie, Willie, etc...
  • Piranahs in the river!!(y)
  • Some Soviets making a plunge off that massive cliff, when Indy and Spalko are ramming their vehicles into one another.
  • Indy and Co. on Lhamas or Donkeys making a trek through the jungle. This would've worked for Mutt and Indy's arrival at the Cemetary, instead of the motorcycle which we don't even get to see used again after the big campus chase.
  • More interaction with the Ugha warriors, and I agree seeing them revere the Skull instead of running from it would have worked better!
  • Indy seeing the Ark would have been cool, just a quick reaction of disbelief from him!
  • An explanation for how Indy was reinstated as Associate Dean, and the F.B.I. was off his back at the end of the film.
  • Some more familiar faces at the wedding(Sallah, Shortie, and Willie), not to mention more people! Why was it such a sparse crowd?
 

Benraianajones

New member
deckard24 said:
  • More of Akator!
  • Indy shooting someone ala Raiders, and more gunplay in general! I wanted to see some bad guys get blown away! There was barely any blood, unlike the first 3 films.
  • Piranahs in the river!!(y)
  • Indy seeing the Ark would have been cool, just a quick reaction of disbelief from him!
  • Some more familiar faces at the wedding(Sallah, Shortie, and Willie), not to mention more people! Why was it such a sparse crowd?

Just a few of your thoughts I'd like to join in on.

I would have like to have seen a bit more of Akator, the trap with the retracting stairs should have lasted a little longer.I loved the scene, but a bit longer I would have liked! And just some general shots of the place, maybe even a room full of scorpions attacking the group.

Indy using his whip and gun, a bit more would have been nice! We don't see him use the whip after the warehouse - aside from the end!

I'd have liked the jungle chase to have gone thru some water along the way, with pirahnas also!

I do not think we needed a reaction from Indy seeing the Ark, it is somehow nice knowing the last and only time he saw the Ark, was back during the events of Raiders.

As for Sallah, Willie and Shorty, agreed - a mention would have been nice, even at the wedding - It would have been nice to have them there, BUT - think about it...Willie Scott was a show girl who got dragged in to Indy's life, they got thru it together - but they weren't exactly friends, or lovers. They shared some time in life together - and parted ways. Who knows what Sallah is up to - and the same goes for Shorty. Maybe a couple of photos of them would have been nice - but - also, the point of the film is also, that Indy is getting older and alone - things are changing, his dad has died, Marcus has, and people from his past - are not part of his life now. That is why he gets Marion and Mutt in the film - and married.
 

deckard24

New member
Benraianajones said:
Just a few of your thoughts I'd like to join in on.

I would have like to have seen a bit more of Akator, the trap with the retracting stairs should have lasted a little longer.I loved the scene, but a bit longer I would have liked! And just some general shots of the place, maybe even a room full of scorpions attacking the group.

Indy using his whip and gun, a bit more would have been nice! We don't see him use the whip after the warehouse - aside from the end!

I'd have liked the jungle chase to have gone thru some water along the way, with pirahnas also!

I do not think we needed a reaction from Indy seeing the Ark, it is somehow nice knowing the last and only time he saw the Ark, was back during the events of Raiders.

As for Sallah, Willie and Shorty, agreed - a mention would have been nice, even at the wedding - It would have been nice to have them there, BUT - think about it...Willie Scott was a show girl who got dragged in to Indy's life, they got thru it together - but they weren't exactly friends, or lovers. They shared some time in life together - and parted ways. Who knows what Sallah is up to - and the same goes for Shorty. Maybe a couple of photos of them would have been nice - but - also, the point of the film is also, that Indy is getting older and alone - things are changing, his dad has died, Marcus has, and people from his past - are not part of his life now. That is why he gets Marion and Mutt in the film - and married.
Good points regarding the wedding and Willie!:hat:

It's disappointing there's no closure regarding Shorty, Willie, and Sallah, especially since they tied up the Marcus and Henry Sr. loose ends. Shorty is an even bigger loose end in my opinion, that was Indy's first kid for God's sake. ;) The whole scene of Indy coming to from the Black Sleep of Kali, and hugging Shorty, was a very father/son moment in my opinion.



I don't know why I keep spelling Shorty, Shortie!LOL
 

Indy_Chic

New member
Agent Z said:
:rolleyes:

Women! Pffft! :p

Hey, it was a good idea!:p :D


ValenciaGrail said:
Let's remember now, the man is 65...perhaps you ladies would appreciate such an extended scene a bit more if filmed using a double... ;)

"It's the mileage AND the years..."

LOL!! You guys are killing the scene for me now!:eek: :p
 
1) Have Indy a little more battered after the flying fridge scene. Maybe broken ribs or something. Or have the fridge experience a slide down a sand dune with it eventually sliding to a halt, not the abrupt impact/door falls open we got in the movie.

2) Make Oxley Marion's father, Abner Ravenwood. This alone would have given the viewer a compassion for the character and want to see him found, resolving the "Abner's dead" scenario from Raiders with a brief explanation of how he had been missing for 20+ years.

3) Remove Mutt's Tarzan swing/monkey scene. Stupid.

4) Keep Mack's character a Soviet agent, not the triple agent story from the film. The Ruskies could have easily followed the trail of carnage left by Indy/gang to the lost city. They didn't need the tracking devices.

5) Remove Marion's ridiculous drive off the cliff into the tree. Stupid again.

6) Resolve the Indy/Russian traitor plot set up at he beginning a little better than a simple name painting on an office door. Even though this hints that Indy has been absolved of the accusations against him, a short scene with Indy or Dean Stanforth and some gov't agents would have done this much better. And removing the monkey scene would have definitely given them the extra few minutes to add it..

I personally didn't have a problem with the "three times they drop" scene. I am not sure what it is that bothers people about that one.

Anyway, my 6 simple ways of Improving Indy IV. I think this would have made the movie equivalent to the previous two movies. Nothing could elevate it above Raiders, though.
 

kongisking

Active member
I actually thought the moment where Marion drives off the cliff and into the tree was a good example of how resourceful she is. If you payed attention while watching the movie: just after Marion avoids driving off it the first time (after Mutt yells, "Mom, there's a cliff!), she looks over the side, and the look on her face is an obvious "I've got an idea!" expression. So, she actually saw the tree, and then drove off the cliff to land on top of it, knowing that the weight from the duck would make the tree bend over and put them in the water gently. I don't know about you, but I call that SMART.

Anyways, one change I would have made, that could have lessened the silliness of the fridge scene (or at least acknowledge it), would be to have Indy, upon falling out of the fridge, mumbling something along the lines of, "There's no way that should have worked!" Voila, the inherently implausable nature of the scene is poked at, and tells the audience, "Yes, we know it's ridiculous, so we aren't idiots. We did it just to have fun, and if you don't find the scene funny, then you're missing the point."

I'll try to think of some more...
 

Wilhelm

Member
I like the ending with the name in the door because it was elliptical and not too expository like the Star Wars prequels.

One change I would have made is that Indy resolves the obelisk. That's something that Ox couldn't find so he needs Indy to enter the temple. In the movie it seems that Oxley is the man who resolves everything.

I would like to see a final action scene in Orellana's tomb, that sections seems too slow with exposition.

I like the rest of the movie.
 

QBComics

Active member
I agree with all of the original post except the first two. I was one of the few who actually enjoyed the fridge scene, and I was so glad they kept Abner dead. It would have been so unnecessary.

Two things I would replace with those would be for Indy to use his whip more, and fire his gun more. It's part of his character. The Raven bar scene is one of my favorite scenes in Raiders. The idea of one man taking down multiple enemies with one gun is awesome, so I'm disappointed that he didn't use it as much in KOTCS.
 
I got the Marion driving to the edge of the cliff

part, I just thought the scene was dumb. But that's my opinion. For some reason, that and the monkey swinging were the two things that bothered me the most.

As for Oxley, one of the other problems with the movie was the unnecessary characters that the audience never built an affection for. Oxley, if introduced or even mentioned in a previous movie, might have worked for me, but when the original rumor was that the character would be Marion's father, it seemed that it would tie up a loose end and also allow Indy and Abner some reconciliation. Oxley may have been okay alone, but the addition of Mack who betrayed Indy so fast in the movie there was no time for the audience to really like the guy. They made the movie seem like it was filled with two-dimensional characters. One of the things I really enjoyed about the previous entries were the characters and the way the stories developed them into people we actually cared about (or annoyed us, in the case of Willie Scott). of course there were some characters in themovies designed to be two-dimensional (most of the villains, etc). But these were supposed to be main characters driving the story, like Short Round, Sallah, Henry Sr., Marcus Brody, etc.
 
kongisking said:
Anyways, one change I would have made, that could have lessened the silliness of the fridge scene (or at least acknowledge it), would be to have Indy, upon falling out of the fridge, mumbling something along the lines of, "There's no way that should have worked!" Voila, the inherently implausable nature of the scene is poked at, and tells the audience, "Yes, we know it's ridiculous, so we aren't idiots. We did it just to have fun, and if you don't find the scene funny, then you're missing the point."

I'll try to think of some more...


I like this idea. And it would totally be in character for Indy.

The fridge scene is like the plane escape from the beginning of ToD. At least in the ToD scene, after they finally managed to get to the calm part of the river, Indy's exhaustion was apparent and he legitimately looked worn completely out as he settled into the raft for a break. I think it was little moments like that that made the audience overlook the implausibility of what had just happened. Indy never just smirked it off like 007.
 

Darth Vile

New member
punisher5150 said:
I like this idea. And it would totally be in character for Indy.

The fridge scene is like the plane escape from the beginning of ToD. At least in the ToD scene, after they finally managed to get to the calm part of the river, Indy's exhaustion was apparent and he legitimately looked worn completely out as he settled into the raft for a break. I think it was little moments like that that made the audience overlook the implausibility of what had just happened. Indy never just smirked it off like 007.

I thought Indy came out of the fridge looking pretty dilapidated. Indy for the majority of the movie (including the fridge sequence) looks pretty grubby. Given that the Indy of TLC spends most of his time looking clean and tidy (until the tank chase), I thought Indy's state of attire/physical wreck in KOTCS was a welcome return to form.
 

Matt deMille

New member
As much as I love Kingdom, there's definitely a good list of my own that would make this movie better (well, to me anyway):

1) Paramount Mountain dissolves into something else. Not sure what, but not a prairie-dog mound.

2) Cut Doomtown. It's a great scene, but it just takes you too much out of the Indy aesthetic. When watching the DVD, as soon as Indy climbs onto the ridge and sees Doomtown in the distance, skip to the next chapter. it makes what he sees an airbase and he goes there. Works much better (and I don't say all this lightly: My mentor in grad school was an art director for Kingdom and she designed all of Doomtown -- L, if you're reading this, I apologize).

3) No chase at Marshall College. Just have Mutt show up at the train station, then we cut to Indy's house, and we're on to Peru.

4) More shots of the Nazca Lines. A wide, sweeping shot. What we saw looked kinda tacked on.

5) Instead of the Marshall College chase, Mutt's bike could have been used in Peru: When the Russians ambush Indy and Mutt outside the tombs, they make a break for it -- The Reds would never have suspected Mutt to have a motorcycle stashed there. They could zip through the village causing all sorts of mayhem. In the end, they crash, hit a brick wall or something, and the Reds move in. Maybe it's Mack in disguise who causes them to crash.

6) Make Oxley instead Abner Ravenwood.

7) No fencing!

8) More stuff inside Akator. It seems the group just sped through the coolest set piece in the entire movie!

9) The aliens needed to be menacing, threatening, like the spirits in the ark. Especially given today's climate of wanting contact with the Grays, it's easy to assume they're neutral or even friendly. Anticlimactic.
 

IndyBr

Member
kongisking said:
Anyways, one change I would have made, that could have lessened the silliness of the fridge scene (or at least acknowledge it), would be to have Indy, upon falling out of the fridge, mumbling something along the lines of, "There's no way that should have worked!" Voila, the inherently implausable nature of the scene is poked at, and tells the audience, "Yes, we know it's ridiculous, so we aren't idiots. We did it just to have fun, and if you don't find the scene funny, then you're missing the point."

Love your idea! It would be much better. (y)

I also agree with almost all the ideas in the first post (I don't think Abner in the movie would be a good idea). But here's my addition to the thread:
- The Cemetery Warriors AND the Ugha should have been used more. Well... maybe not that much the Ugha, but certanly the Cemetery Warriors. They had so much potential for a good action scene...
- The Jungle Cutter, also had a lot of potential, they could have used it instead of Mutt-Tarzan and the monkeys.

Oh, and Indy never fires his gun in KOTCS. (n)
 

Major Eaton

New member
kongisking said:
Anyways, one change I would have made, that could have lessened the silliness of the fridge scene (or at least acknowledge it), would be to have Indy, upon falling out of the fridge, mumbling something along the lines of, "There's no way that should have worked!" Voila, the inherently implausable nature of the scene is poked at, and tells the audience, "Yes, we know it's ridiculous, so we aren't idiots. We did it just to have fun, and if you don't find the scene funny, then you're missing the point."

Hahahahaha!

I like that idea as well. It would have certainly helped ease the pain in the theatre my first time seeing it!:mad: It still managed to make me laugh out loud, however.

Anyway, they should have omitted the "Damn, I thought that was closer" line from the warehouse chase sequence and went with the above line during that scene. I mean, the line wasn't that bad as some of the other line atrocities later in the movie but the Russians in the truck just sat there like idiots when Indy crashed through the windshield. We already got that Indy was old from the scene outside the warehouse. I guess they wanted to iterate that Indy was not only older, but rusty too. I don't know. There should have been an immediate struggle with those troops rather than having to deal with that line IMO. It was overly silly considering the situation. It should have shared more of the same mold as some of the truck fights in Raiders.

I also would like to have seen a live action whip sequence instead of the CGI whip in the warehouse scene. That stood out like a sore thumb in the theatre and I swear, I heard gasps(among others) from some hardcore fans when it happened. :sick: I can understand the difficulty in shooting it but they have done more complex things in the past. I'm sure it may have also cost less and given them more options. Oh well. I demand a recut with all these new ideas!;)
 

IAdventurer01

Well-known member
kongisking said:
Anyways, one change I would have made, that could have lessened the silliness of the fridge scene (or at least acknowledge it), would be to have Indy, upon falling out of the fridge, mumbling something along the lines of, "There's no way that should have worked!" Voila, the inherently implausable nature of the scene is poked at, and tells the audience, "Yes, we know it's ridiculous, so we aren't idiots. We did it just to have fun, and if you don't find the scene funny, then you're missing the point."

It seems that everyone has their own at least slight recut of that scene, so I suppose I'll give mine finally. Hanging a lantern to the implausibility with a line of dialog has its merits, but for a slightly more serious route (which seems to be what most people are going for), such a line would be out of place and actually spoil the scene. Here's what I would suggest:

Indy closes the door just in time as the bomb detonates. The town is blown away, but the fridge (perhaps with a little more other debris) is miraculously blown clear of the blast. Unlike the scene we got, where surviving the bouncing impact is more implausible than escaping the heat and the radiation, it slides or slightly skips across the ground.
The explosion passes over the camera and the refrigerator is off screen. It fades to the fridge door being forcefully kicked open from the inside and Indy slowly crawls out and barely staggers to his feet, showing the extreme trauma and some bewilderment that he's still alive. Upon standing, we get the famous Ford closeup, his eyes filled with awe. The camera slowly zooms out and rotates around to Indy's back, revealing the mushroom cloud (and keeping that rather impressive image from the film)

EDIT: Oh, and nix the groundhog. They didn't really bother me except there. I guess I forgot about it (blocked it from my memory to protect my sanity)


Major Eaton said:
Anyway, they should have omitted the "Damn, I thought that was closer" line from the warehouse chase sequence and went with the above line during that scene. I mean, the line wasn't that bad as some of the other line atrocities later in the movie but the Russians in the truck just sat there like idiots when Indy crashed through the windshield ... It should have shared more of the same mold as some of the truck fights in Raiders.

I actually rather like the line - I thought it was pretty funny. However, making it more like the truck chase scene could still be an improvement if you want to keep it more serious. As Indy crashes in, just have the pause of shock as Indy and the Commies take in the situation, showing that this was indeed unintentional, but have Indy still recover faster and take advantage of his new surroundings.


Major Eaton said:
I also would like to have seen a live action whip sequence instead of the CGI whip in the warehouse scene.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't think that CG was used for the whip. There was some admittedly bizarre camera play, but CG was not the problem there.
 
More comments

Major Eaton said:
Anyway, they should have omitted the "Damn, I thought that was closer" line from the warehouse chase sequence and went with the above line during that scene. I mean, the line wasn't that bad as some of the other line atrocities later in the movie but the Russians in the truck just sat there like idiots when Indy crashed through the windshield. We already got that Indy was old from the scene outside the warehouse. I guess they wanted to iterate that Indy was not only older, but rusty too. I don't know. There should have been an immediate struggle with those troops rather than having to deal with that line IMO. It was overly silly considering the situation. It should have shared more of the same mold as some of the truck fights in Raiders.

I thought that line seemed rather forced. Worked OK for the trailer to get people into the mood to see the movie, but I did not like it at all in the movie. And I forgot about the groundhogs. The mountain could have easily faded into a mountain or sand dune in the desert.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
punisher5150 said:
1) Have Indy a little more battered after the flying fridge scene. Maybe broken ribs or something. Or have the fridge experience a slide down a sand dune with it eventually sliding to a halt, not the abrupt impact/door falls open we got in the movie.

Yes. The novel writes this scene with more 'believability'. Indy emerges dazed and confused.

punisher5150 said:
2) Make Oxley Marion's father, Abner Ravenwood. This alone would have given the viewer a compassion for the character and want to see him found, resolving the "Abner's dead" scenario from Raiders with a brief explanation of how he had been missing for 20+ years.

No. I think this would complicate matters. Finding Abner could be a movie in itself. The whole story of what happened to him, where he's been all these years.

punisher5150 said:
3) Remove Mutt's Tarzan swing/monkey scene. Stupid.

Definitely. It was unnecessary and over-playful. It should have gone along with the snake in the sandpit scene.

punisher5150 said:
4) Keep Mack's character a Soviet agent, not the triple agent story from the film. The Ruskies could have easily followed the trail of carnage left by Indy/gang to the lost city. They didn't need the tracking devices.

Yes. I wasn't convinced by Mac. I don't think Ray Winstone was convinced either. He was an actor wasted, just as the character of Spalko was also wasted.

punisher5150 said:
5) Remove Marion's ridiculous drive off the cliff into the tree. Stupid again.

I agree. It looked like an homage to the Wile E. Coyote/Roaderunner cartoons. Again, the novel is more believable, because it allows you to picture it in a more reasonable way.

punisher5150 said:
6) Resolve the Indy/Russian traitor plot set up at he beginning a little better than a simple name painting on an office door. Even though this hints that Indy has been absolved of the accusations against him, a short scene with Indy or Dean Stanforth and some gov't agents would have done this much better. And removing the monkey scene would have definitely given them the extra few minutes to add it..

I don't see that as necessary. It's one of the things I didn't have a problem with.

punisher5150 said:
I personally didn't have a problem with the "three times they drop" scene. I am not sure what it is that bothers people about that one.

Only that it's three massive cliffhangers in a row. Three lucky drops. One waterfall would have been enough, but KOTCS was obsessed with doing everything grander than before. Hopefully that won't continue with Indy V, otherwise we'll see Indy walking out of a nuclear explosion transformed by gamma rays into The Hulk (big and green with a teeny weeny man-bag).
 

Dr.Jonesy

Well-known member
Guys,

May 22nd was over 2 years ago. It's over...the film is as it is. Take it or leave it. These topics have been done and done over since then. It's over. The film is as it is.

Just let it go...

Just my 2 cents.
:hat:
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Dr.Jonesy said:
Guys,

May 22nd was over 2 years ago. It's over...the film is as it is. Take it or leave it. These topics have been done and done over since then. It's over. The film is as it is.

Just let it go...

Just my 2 cents.
:hat:

Well, we're still discussing the pros and cons of the original trilogy, and they're around 20-30 years ago! :p

KOTCS discussion is still in it's infancy!

:hat:
 
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