Marion, Willie or Elsa?

Well said, Vance. I've only been on The Raven for a short time but I must admit that this particular topical discussion has been my favorite so far. This discussion has shined a spotlight on a very complex character- arguably the most complex in the Indy universe. On a lighter note, I'd like to add that Allison Doody could easily have been one of the sirens of the war-time era. She has a very old-fashioned beauty. Her starry-eyes, high cheek bones, and slendor face are reminiscient of the pin-up stars like Lauren Bacall or Rita Hayworth. As an artist, I'm suddenly inspired to paint a tasteful, cheesecake pose of her if time permits. A black-and-white still of Elsa reclined over the hood of a Bentley perhaps.

Vance said:

I knew that they had them earlier, but I didn't think that the "festival rallies" (with Hitler making them a major party event) happened until shortly before the war itself. Consider me corrected. (That's why I come here. I learn things!)

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Here are a couple of photos from the first Nazi book burning:

Joseph Goebbels, German propaganda minister, speaks on the night of book burning. Berlin, Germany, May 10, 1933.

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Students and members of the SA unload books deemed "un-German" during the book burning in Berlin. The banner reads: "German students march against the un-German spirit." Berlin, Germany, May 10, 1933.

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http://www.ushmm.org/outreach/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007677



My real issue with your earlier post was with two points that you appeared to be making:

1) That the evils of the Nazi state weren’t apparent by 1938.

2) That there was a “true Nazi character”.


In your subsequent posts you've elaborated on those remarks, and I understand what you were getting at.



I still stand by my view of Elsa, minus, of course, her wearing of the Party badge! Not having found that in the usual selection of screencaps, I went to VP's library of large scale screenshots to see it.

Smiffy said:

Indyland is scattered with obsessives driven by the need to acquire some artifact or other. They align themselves with the faction they imagine might assist them best.

Belloq despised Hitler and his Nazis, which is made especially evident in the novelization

...

Belloq used the Nazis for his own ends.

I see Elsa in the same situation, only her obsession is much more deeply entrenched than Belloq's. For Belloq the Ark is a quest propelled by ambition - just as it is for Indy. The fortune and glory of the goal itself.

With Elsa it's much more a need that she cannot deny. Whereas Belloq took full precautions (or so he thought) when opening the Ark, Elsa was incapable of detaching herself from the object that gripped her mind. She would follow that quest to the death because at that point in her life there was nothing else.

...

It was no surprise that she put her trust in the Nazis. She was Austrian, as was Hitler. The Anschluß had taken place in March 1938. No doubt Hitler had sought out her expertise just as much as she'd sought his assistance in forming an expedition to find her Grail.

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The issue of the badge actually re-affirms my feelings. Whereas Donovan sports his at every opportunity outside of America, Elsa only wears it when compelled. If she were a proud Nazi she would be displaying her support even in the desert, where even the SS are incorrectly wearing armbands on their regular army (Heer) field uniforms.











And for fun, here's something else that I just noticed.

In New York Donovan wears a red carnation in place of the badge. It's only significant in the context of the later scenes, with red being a potent Nazi colour, and a red carnation often symbolizing passion:



And to throw the viewer off the scent, Kazim also wears a red carnation:



(Also, when the Crusaders were stricken with plague in the 13th century they mixed the leaves of carnations with wine and drank it to control the fever).

To throw the audience even further off the scent Indy picks a white rose to give to Elsa, which has connotations of purity and innocence, but also of secrecy:






It may mean nothing, but I like the idea of the subtle symbolism.

Montana Smith said:

Here are a couple of photos from the first Nazi book burning:

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I've been reading about Goebels lately (as I'm writing some pulp stuff for myself), and it's an interesting character. A very powerful man who was very obviously insecure in that power - a lot of his (for lack of a better word) antics were of his own design, apparently including the Kristalnacht announcement itself!

2) That there was a “true Nazi character”.

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I just meant a more 'realistic portrayal' of a Nazi rather than the charicatures that we were usually getting in movies, and so on. My apologies if my statements sounded like anything else. I certainly didn't mean to say "true Nazi character" as a sort of ideal!

I still stand by my view of Elsa, minus, of course, her wearing of the Party badge! Not having found that in the usual selection of screencaps, I went to VP's library of large scale screenshots to see it.

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I think that after Berlin (and thus in the desert scenes), she didn't really consider herself a Nazi anymore, but was too deep into her own mess. Certainly at that point, she was no longer a proud Nazi, and was quite willing to escape it all with Indy, provided she had the Grail too, of course.

Before that, though, she clearly was major party member, but wouldn't be wearing the badge since she was meant to be a plant for the Jones.

This, then, would leave the only scenes for her to have the badge on to be the castle upon the Jone's capture (which seems unlikely due to lack of time) and Berlin itself, where she did have the badge on.

Vance said:

I think that after Berlin (and thus in the desert scenes), she didn't really consider herself a Nazi anymore, but was too deep into her own mess. Certainly at that point, she was no longer a proud Nazi, and was quite willing to escape it all with Indy, provided she had the Grail too, of course.

Before that, though, she clearly was major party member, but wouldn't be wearing the badge since she was meant to be a plant for the Jones.

This, then, would leave the only scenes for her to have the badge on to be the castle upon the Jone's capture (which seems unlikely due to lack of time) and Berlin itself, where she did have the badge on.

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Yes, she didn't wear the badge early on for the same reasons that Donovan didn't in New York. They would have been made well aware from Indy's 1936 adventure that he 'hates those guys'!

There's something else though. The comical manner in which Henry Sr. revealed his brief relationship with Elsa may also reveal more about her feelings:

Indiana Jones: How did you know she was a Nazi?
Professor Henry Jones: She talks in her sleep.

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I took it that her alliance with the Nazis was disturbing to her. Maybe giving her nightmares, or causing her to talk in her sleep as she wrestles with her conscience.

Vance said:

Her official bio has her as an 'up and coming star' of the Nazi party as well.

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As somebody pointed out to me a few years ago, the Indiana Jones Wiki generally comes to The Raven for its information.

carnations

The possible symbolism of the colors of the carnations, Monty, is really intriguing. I don't know if symbolism was intended or Spielberg just had an over-zealous florist, but there are definately a lot of carnations in Last Crusade. There are white and pink carnations as centerpieces on all the dining tables of the zeppelin. The man referred to as Panama Hat wears a red carnation in both eras. I've always found it interesting, too, that Young Indy wears a red scout patch over his heart in opposition to Herman's silver badge. This may all just be an artistic use of bold and contrasting colors to compliment the composition, however, as carnations are found in Temple of Doom, too. In the Obi-Wan Club, Indy is wearing a red carnation in contrast to the white carnations of Lao's consortium. Still, if ever there is hidden symbolism to be found in an Indy film, it's Last Crusade, such as the animal symbols of the Six Degrees of Awareness as described in the novel.

foreverwingnut said:

The possible symbolism of the colors of the carnations, Monty, is really intriguing. I don't know if symbolism was intended or Spielberg just had an over-zealous florist, but there are definately a lot of carnations in Last Crusade. There are white and pink carnations as centerpieces on all the dining tables of the zeppelin. The man referred to as Panama Hat wears a red carnation in both eras. I've always found it interesting, too, that Young Indy wears a red scout patch over his heart in opposition to Herman's silver badge. This may all just be an artistic use of bold and contrasting colors to compliment the composition, however, as carnations are found in Temple of Doom, too. In the Obi-Wan Club, Indy is wearing a red carnation in contrast to the white carnations of Lao's consortium. Still, if ever there is hidden symbolism to be found in an Indy film, it's Last Crusade, such as the animal symbols of the Six Degrees of Awareness as described in the novel.

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Maybe a thread on hidden symbolism is in order?

MontanaSmith, I agree that a new thread is in order. I realized we were getting off topic here by heading down a very different road, but it was too compelling to obey the "WRONG WAY" sign. I had started a thread called "Six Degrees of the Grail Quest", which began a very short discussion about imagery and symbolism. Could we continue there or would you like to start an entirely new thread?

foreverwingnut said:

MontanaSmith, I agree that a new thread is in order. I realized we were getting off topic here by heading down a very different road, but it was too compelling to obey the "WRONG WAY" sign.

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It's hard staying on topic with something like Indy, because there are so many directions it can go. You never know where it'll end up.

foreverwingnut said:

I had started a thread called "Six Degrees of the Grail Quest", which began a very short discussion about imagery and symbolism. Could we continue there or would you like to start an entirely new thread?

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A thread with an all-encompassing title might offer more of a chance. For example, I remember Stoo mentioning the Masonic devices in Donovan's apartment. There are probably lots of such instances throughout the movies. Some intentional, and some we could at the very least assign to the sub-conscious!

I picked Marion for a few reasons:
1) She is the girl Indy ends up marrying

Marion...hands down.

Karen Allen was perfect in that roll and has left her mark as being the ultimate Bond...I mean Indy Girl.

Jase

qwerty said:

If you would meet all three in real life wich one would you choose? Beware that all the women would come with their movie personalities.
For a long time I thought it would be Marion but I saw the TV movie King Solomons Mines and that changed my mind a little bit. In that movie Alison Doody looks preaty fine. And it is made 15 years after TLC.
I am gonna be shallow and say Elsa.

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I have only discovered this thread (started in 2006 - most users from that time are already cybercorpses here ) because of the most recent and utmost interesting posts by Monty, Vance and Wingnut. To me, it is as much a jewel as the Remaining Jewish and Christian Relics and Cliffhangers - Republic Pictures threads - reasons why I like hanging out here .

Mostly thanks to the entertaining musings and hardcore research on page 7 here, I will try not to be as shallow as the admitting OP from Serbia, and choose Elsa: not solely because of her physique and style, and despite purportedly not liking blondes (as I am being reassured quite often), or indeed any phantasma dreaming about the Ilsa side of her, but because her characterisation is surprisingly complex, very substantial and multifaceted, and much deeper than it would have been necessary for a genre film like any "Indiana Jones".

I deem her to be quite a good metaphor for the choices people had at their disposal at their respective levels both in Germany, Europe and abroad during the late 1930s on how to position oneself vis-à-vis the NSDAP-in-power and lead one's life, and the consequences this would bring upon them and others (just looking at the small and societally not too relevant field of archaeology, we can think of the biographies of Otto Rahn, Gero von Merhart and Paul Jacobsthal). Elsa's choice is probably much more representative and "common" of the decisions many people made for themselves at that time than is discussed or acknowledged today. The discourse nowadays is mentally imprisoned between "Hitler porn"-type television/movie programming on one side, and on the other side important attempts to make sense of the unfathomable horrors of Nazism, which, however, leave Hannah Arendt's 'banality of evil' out of discussion or even consideration because a simplified dramatising of this era makes it easier to grapple this topic. (I am looking at you, "England"... )

If you dive a little bit into the Elsa Schneider character(isation), the elegance of it, what in German could be referred to as "innere Stimmigkeit', becomes apparent. I think it's fair to speculate that this was intended by Spielberg and Boam (who also adapted Dead Zone for Cronenberg), and that a nucleus for Spielberg's later and more mature examination of the Nazi spectre might already be seeded here. In an interview (which I cannot reference right now ) he once said that the Nazi portrayals in his earlier movies were too operetta-like and inappropriate.

I must say my choice is a bit of a surprise to me, as Marion is a quite obvious choice for the Indy fan. But following this thread, when contrasted with Elsa, Marion is suddenly somewhat lacking - not only does she not live up to her own grandiose Nepal exposition when it comes to the latter parts of ROTLA, but KOTCS devoids her of the best chance to be portrayed and mentally imprinted as a much more profound character. All the added dimensions that are given to her - the out-of-wedlock love child, the tragic "rescueing" marriage, the quasi-marital Oxley relationship, the second "we'll meet again" with Indy happening in context of a dramatic fight for life... I mean... is the driving an amphicar and being more Willie–than–Nepal-Marion all that Lucas could create for a character like her?

Anyway...
if I had to choose to meet one of the three in real life, Elsa would be the most interesting. Not so sure if I would go to an "encore", though... the topic of ethics might be quite a downer between us.

"Just another day at the office"


Edit: typos and grammar

Good post, Archaeos.

I like the cut of your jib!

Montana Smith said:

Good post, Archaeos.

I like the cut of your jib!

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And I like the cut of your new avatar, Monty.



Will take me donkey years to see the inner dog of you when I look out for your post, though.