Ark burns US warehouse crate?

Stoo · Dec 13, 2012

Moedred said:
The urban legend rekindled. Debunked, but commenters keep fanning the flames with zero evidence. At this point I suspect it's some kind of prank.

That blog article does NOT debunk this mystery (though its author claims to have done so)! He reached his own, premature conclusion based on what he read here at The Raven and TheRaider.net. (even crediting TheRaider.net and quoting the 2nd post from this very thread.) One single blogger's opinion, who is obviously only only a casual Indy fan, against the pooled & collective testimonies from various people around the globe is not equal to "debunking".

Brian Cronin from spinoff.comicbookresources.com said:
STATUS: False

Thanks to the amazing Indiana Jones website, TheRaider.net, for valuable help in debunking this legend. If you have even the slightest interest in Indiana Jones, you?ll love their wonderful web site.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not trying to prove/disprove the existence of the shot. Merely poking holes in an article which is trying to pass itself off as a definite & ultimate answer. :gun:

However, one is most famous for the fact that it doesn?t actually exist!
---
It is a great ending, but many fans believe it was not the original. Reader Hector G. specifically asked about a common urban legend regarding an ?Australian version? of the film?s ending that shows the U.S. Army logo being burned off, just like the German Army emblem was.

Many fans believe/Most famous/Common urban legend?

Who is this clown? Re. his "Australian version" comment: He obviously didn't read this whole thread because people from the United States (and France) have also reported seeing the shot.

Again, who is this poseur-journalist clown?

Earlier in the film, the Ark is being transported in a crate labeled (in German, of course) ?Property of the German Army,? along with the emblem of the German Army (not a Swastika, as many remember the scene having).

Even more blog nonsense...This statement alone, completely DESTROYS any of Brian Cronin's credibility & opinions about the subject matter in question. The shot of the burning, German crate ZOOMS INTO the SWASTIKA and this guy is trying to pass off his blog about the mystery scene as a concrete conclusion?

However, first off, as noted above, the crate has the above stenciled on it, but besides a stamp, that is it. There is no U.S. logo to burn off of the crate.

Secondly, and much more importantly, the scene does not exist. It is not in the film?s final continuity guide, and it is not in the film?s final dialogue script. It appears in no versions of the script. And, obviously, the most important aspect of it all, no one has ever actually shown it to exist. The legend has been repeated for years now (including ?It is on the Region 4 DVD version of the film!?) without anyone ever showing a screen cap or a clip of the scene. As noted in the beginning, we live in an era where it is relatively simple to share information, and if such a clip actually existed, someone would have shared it by now.

1) The fact that there wasn't an U.S. emblem on the crate during the warehouse scene CANNOT be used as proof that it didn't burn at the end of the film. (This reasoning is absolutely silly and displays a high level of ignorance/limited thinking.)

2) Read the "Secondly, and much more importantly" explanation. He states that the scene does not exist because...it does not exist! (As if that make any sense). What Mr. Brian Cronin doesn't realize is that he missed some details in the Continuity Breakdown document! (even though he referenced it to support his belief).

3) His "most important aspect" (the assumption that something like this would/should be easily available to see in today's era) is not only faulty logic, it's also incredibly naive. Who knows what lies within people's personal recordings? Who knows if people who may have old recordings are/aren't savvy enough to digitize & upload them to the internet? Very telling that Brian Cronin's 'most important' reason for DEBUNKING the myth is the DUMBEST of them all!

It is certainly true that occasionally movies are slightly altered for release outside of the United States, but this is not one of those occasions.

An unfounded statement with nothing to substantiate it other than inconclusive speculation from an Indiana-Jones-fan-website.

Montana Smith · Dec 13, 2012

Stoo said:
1) The fact that there wasn't an U.S. emblem on the crate during the warehouse scene CANNOT be used as proof that it didn't burn at the end of the film. (This reasoning is absolutely silly and displays a high level of ignorance/limited thinking.)

Since there wasn't a "US flag" on any of the crates, the answer to this thread is negative.

There's a short thread on Sideshow Freaks dedicated to this, though you may not be able to read it without joining.

So here's the main bits:

CombustedGremlin said:
So I was chatting with a buddy of mine and he was telling me about a scene that he only saw once. I looked it up online and here's the jist of it:

"I first saw "Raiders" at the cinema when it was released in Australia and I distinctly remember a scene which has never appeared on video or DVD. After the end credits, there's a cut back to the crate housing the Ark in the warehouse, and the U.S Govt. stamp on the side of the crate is slowly burning off, as if a fire within the crate is scorching it. One other friend (also in Australia) also remembers. Does anyone else remember this, and can anyone shed any light on what happened to this scene?"

...

That particular scene was removed, but was allegedly the last scene in the film. I wanted to know if anyone on the boards had seen this scene for themselves.

...

I believe the only time people saw this scene was during the early theatrical release back in 1981. From what I heard online, the film was modified within the first month of the film's debut and this particular scene was never seen again.

EVILFACE said:
This is a movie I remember seeing opening week (me, my buddy Tim and my brother were the only ones in the theater for this showing) and there was no second burning crate scene.

Kal-El said:
I saw ROTLA in 81' but I don't recall this scene at the end. I was 11 at the time.

comiclover47 said:
I think I remember this scene from the first time I watched raiders it was a bootleg vhs copy of it.memory is a bit hazy as this was some 17-18 years ago tho.

ProgMatinee said:
I think I remember this too on video or tv.

It wasn't after the credits though. It was right before.

...

I remember the scene in a sense that "everything is safe now......oh no it isn't" then the film ends.

fuzzylojiks said:
Yeah it was before the credit.

Mad Old Lu said:
I never saw that scene (I also saw the movie in its original run) but I do recall this rumor coming up before...

I don't think there's been any kind of official evidence to support it, just the "false memories" a la the Biggs with Luke in Tatooine scene.

Darthrazz said:
I saw it in 1981 and don't remember that part at all, but that was ages ago , I was 10 years old.....it wasn't burning when we saw it in KOTCS.....

barryo said:
seems like i remember that or want to remember it that way............but whatever........that crate is all busted up now........

Craze said:
I saw this in the theaters as well on opening weekend and many after that, can't say I recall ever seeing that particular scene or hearing about it until now.

Kabukiman said:
I remember seeing a lot of weird ____ in movies that wasn't there when I was a kid.

mike14 said:
I swear I remeber seeing this as a kid as well, but I'm assuming I've just gotten it mixed up with the scene on the boat.....

dragonsleeper said:
I remember watching it ending that way too in the theater but more than 25 years my memories may be playing tricks on me. Maybe an Asian/Australian distributors cut? A lot of films had different endings here.

http://sideshowcollectors.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100610

Stoo · Dec 14, 2012

Rocket Surgeon said:
I'm working out details for an interview with the actor who actually spray painted the stencil on the crate!

Someone who was there at the filming...

That would be interesting to hear but don't know how much insight the actor would be able to provide. The burning aboard the Bantu Wind was all done in post-production (animation + superimposed flames) and it's a reasonable assumption that a 2nd Ark-burning would've been handled the same way. (The clue which I found supports that theory.

)

Montana Smith said:
Since there wasn't a "US flag" on any of the crates, the answer to this thread is negative.

Indeed. This thread needs a better title! The whole point is that the crate supposedly burned again, regardless of what was stenciled upon it.

Montana Smith said:
There's a short thread on Sideshow Freaks dedicated to this, though you may not be able to read it without joining.

So here's the main bits:

Thanks for posting those quotes, Smiff! :hat:

Interesting to see that it was an Australian who started that Sideshow thread. Here are more Aussie witnesses (& someone from Argentina) from the comments section of the article Moedred linked to):

Puly1333
That´s the end of the movie that I saw on the Argentinian TV back in the day...

Brick Hillum
...I'm Australian. I watched it in the cinema when it was released. It happened. Just bc it hasn't since been released on DVD proves nothing. Anyone located an original Australian print of the film?

Khonsurises
Another Aussie here. Yep, I saw that scene, too.

Excronimuss
Another Aussie, I'm sure I remember it too.

Moedred · Dec 14, 2012

Thread title "Ark burns US flag on crate?" changed.

Are there yet pre-credits and post-credits sub-camps of witnesses, insistent the other claimants are wrong? So far all seem willing to go whichever way is more believable, remaining just ambiguous enough.

Colonel Corey · Dec 15, 2012

It's on my disc set... I have the Indy trilogy, but not on Blu-ray.

russds · Dec 15, 2012

Colonel Corey said:
It's on my disc set... I have the Indy trilogy, but not on Blu-ray.

BS! Upload some proof. Tired of these dumb rumors.

Rocket Surgeon · Dec 15, 2012

Road flares...better slow down and prime the jaws of life.

Henry W Jones · Dec 16, 2012

Colonel Corey said:
It's on my disc set... I have the Indy trilogy, but not on Blu-ray.

What's on your set? If it ever made it to DVD The Raven would be aware of it.

JuniorJones · Dec 16, 2012

Henry W Jones said:
If it ever made it to DVD The Raven would be aware of it.

You'd think that wouldn't you.

It's been proven time after time how little people actually know as only a few are prepared to do any proper research and gift it other who are quite happy to give nothing back.

This week I've track down a carpenter who work on the LC Utah and Colorado sequences. Intresting stuff especially Harrison Ford titbits.

Almost as interesting as my Raiders research... :whip:

Vance · Dec 16, 2012

Colonel Corey said:
It's on my disc set... I have the Indy trilogy, but not on Blu-ray.

Tell ya what. I've got capture software here if you don't. Send me the discs, at my expense. I'll sample the scenes and put them on this site for all to see, then express mail them back to you. Internationally if need be. PM me if these terms are acceptable.

ROB98374 · Dec 16, 2012

I saw the movie the first day it was released back when I was a kid, got the first run of the VHS when it was released at retail, the original DVD trilogy exclusive from Best Buy with the bonus disc, and the Blu-ray set.
I have no proof, but I swear I remember that scene. I checked all the home versions I have and it is not on any of them. My father inlaw has the RCA selectavison that I will check... I remember watching it on those old RCA discs back then. I rented the Lasdisc, but never owned it, so I don't know what it has. Either I saw it in the theater or on TV, or maybe reading about it messed up my memory.
If it really happened, I wish someone had some proof.

Vance · Dec 16, 2012

ROB98374 said:
If it really happened, I wish someone had some proof.

Seriously, I think it's memory conflation of the cargo deck scene with the warehouse. I seriously, seriously doubt that Lucas would be brain-dead enough to put a sequence in a picture that equates the US Government under Roosevelt with Nazi Germany.

For the record, I've heard this rumor since my usenet days, roughly 1989. To this date, there has never ever been any proof of this scene ever surfacing despite dozens of people claiming to have seen it, have the Betamax, VHS, Laserdisc, DVD, BluRay copies with it on it, etc... So, I'm saying that this scene never happened.

But I'm ponying up. I'll pay for the expense to disseminate this evidence if anyone here who claims to have it will put it forward. Until then, I'm calling "bovine feces".

Montana Smith · Dec 16, 2012

Colonel Corey said:
It's on my disc set...

But unfortunately your discs are at the bottom of a cliff underneath a tank?

russds · Dec 17, 2012

Montana Smith said:
But unfortunately your discs are at the bottom of a cliff underneath a tank?

Hahahahaha, nice! Maybe his disks have the egg scene from ToD too! man, we got to get those!!!

Rocket Surgeon · Dec 17, 2012

Like the twisting going on in another thread, it seems like there is a simple misunderstanding going on in this one...

OH! Sorry, with regards to someone's DVD set and what's on it.

But I guess this is what you get when you don't see the whole picture...

Stoo · Dec 17, 2012

Clue

There is a clue which proves that it was, at the very least, an IDEA shortly before principal filming actually began.

From the "Raiders" Continuity Breakdown document (28 May, 1980):

SET: INT. HOLD - BANTU WIND
Scene No. 122. ARK IN HOLD - RATS AGITATED.
SPECIAL EFFECTS: WIND EFFECT AROUND ARK

SET: INT. GOVERNMENT WAREHOUSE
Scene. No. 160. ARK IS NAILED IN CRATE LOADED ON TO TROLLEY AND WHEELED AWAY BY OLD WAREHOUSEMAN
SPECIAL EFFECTS: WIND EFFECT AROUND ARK?

Vance · Dec 17, 2012

Stoo said:
SET: INT. GOVERNMENT WAREHOUSE
Scene. No. 160. ARK IS NAILED IN CRATE LOADED ON TO TROLLEY AND WHEELED AWAY BY OLD WAREHOUSEMAN
SPECIAL EFFECTS: WIND EFFECT AROUND ARK?

The wind effect is actually still there, just subtle. (Notice the dust as it's nailed shut). The cresendo music downs out the wind's sound effect, though it's a little audible in the Blu Ray release (which has remastered sound). I don't think that this is indictative of God hating the United States, which was what the burning of the Nazi symbol was supposed to indicate.

InexorableTash · Dec 17, 2012

Just to leap in here with no data.

Like the "tie himself onto the periscope with his whip" scene which is present in my memories (although I believe those memories to be manufactured based on the comic book), I'd go on record as saying this "second burning" causes vague associations with my memory subsystems. Analyzing my own reaction, it's more of a sense of feeling that the scene is missing rather than a memory of the scene itself. I would be interested in hearing about this posited scene appearing in other media of any sort, but also in correlation with the nationality and age of those who claim to have seen it.

Vance said:
I don't think that this is indictative of God hating the United States, which was what the burning of the Nazi symbol was supposed to indicate.

My psyche tells me that a burning off of a US flag would give closure to the film, refining the message that God hates Nazis to the more subtle, powerful, and perhaps ominous message that the of Ark is beyond the claims of any nationality. This is nice and tidy, and aligns well with my proper Canadian upbringing during the 1980s which brings along a deep seated distrust of the United States*. At that time, the Cold War was in full swing with Reagan's twitchy finger on the button and we expected ICBMs to fly overhead in both directions at any time.

I would posit, therefore, that any such memory I possess of a "second burning" is manufactured out of a subconscious need for symmetry, and in no way corresponds to photons hitting my eyeballs. Correlation between reported memories of such a scene and nationality would be quite interesting.

* I've lived in the US for 17 years now, but as a kid I didn't want to talk to a relative who'd married an American!

Moedred · Dec 17, 2012

Stoo said:
SPECIAL EFFECTS: WIND

Of course, there's always wind, even down in the Well of Souls.

Vance · Dec 17, 2012

InexorableTash said:
My psyche tells me that a burning off of a US flag would give closure to the film, refining the message that God hates Nazis to the more subtle, powerful, and perhaps ominous message that the of Ark is beyond the claims of any nationality.

I'm not sure how anyone could miss the symbolism of the God of the Jews burning away a Nazi emblem in 1936. I mean, we're not exactly talking subtle here...

Ark burns US warehouse crate?

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