Indy IV - - The Success of the Film

Dr.Jonesy

Well-known member
Darth Vile said:
The IMDB demographic is far too limited. It's like polling AICN members and expecting an intelligent insight into a movie. Lucas neither tried to turn Skull into a toy selling machine nor did he fail to understand the demographic. Quite simply - Lucas, Spielberg and Ford wanted to make KOTCS for themselves and to make some money along the way no doubt... Of course they were going to do a line in Hasbro toys to complement the movie. What movie doesn't these days?


On the nose... KOTCS was more about Lucas/Spielberg reliving their own highlights rather than taking on new external cinematic inspirations (although they made a nod to movies of the 50's).

I think you're right, all Spielberg and Lucas talk about is how 'damn fun' it was to make the film and there's nothing wrong with enjoying that, IMO. All I know about the toy thing is I bought a couple dolls and a few action figures to satisfy my lack of Indy stuff as a kid.
:p

Lucas simply sold merchandise for the film, I doubt he expected to turn it into a moneymaking machine like Star Wars merch.
 

Dr.Jonesy

Well-known member
Montana Smith said:
It's all relative.

If Indy had been as popular as Star Wars, and there had been more films, we might have seen his versions of An Ewok Adventure or Ewoks: The Battle for Endor long before we even got to the relatively heady heights of KOTCS.

The downside is that we've missed out on a lot more toys. But in there is the biggest mystery: why didn't KOTCS keep the younger demographic on board?

The only answer I can see is that in spite of the kid-friendly inclusions, the man himself is, in their eyes, too old.

The result is a film of mixed success.

I doubt we'd have more Indy films if he was as popular as Star Wars, I mean in the end how many films did we have more than Star Wars? Two, and that's not a whole lot. I think Lucas maybe wasn't too keen on trying to bring back Spielberg for more than one last sequel. I mean I don't think Steven even wanted to do (maybe) TOD and LC from the literature I've seen. Lucas had to have known Indy would be a box office cow (not the size of Star Wars, but what studio wouldn't want to distribute Indy?) but for some reason never made more films. I guess I'll never quite have an idea why he didn't make more films.

I think Indy still appeals to the young demographic and did just fine on that front. Maybe the age did make a tiny difference though but there still are three other films they'd see before or after KOTCS with a younger Ford. But Indy would never have the appeal for kids as Star Wars, that's for sure!


Djd1 said:
If you don't want a debate then don't start a topic.


You do see me discussing with Montanna and Darth Vile, right?
 

Dr.Jonesy

Well-known member
Djd1 said:
I see you discussing because you agree with them. That's not a debate

How about this; I addressed your point about IMDB.

I also disagreed with Montanna about how if Indy was more popular, there'd have been more films. Also disagreed about the young demographic part.

The difference between you and Montanna/DarthVile is they debate with concise and well articulated points. You cried foul because I didn't mention IMDB.
 

Djd1

New member
Im sorry if it came over like that. Really.

You and I obviously disagree on the merits of the film. I'm happy for you that you like it as I wish I could. My point - perhaps clumsily made as I was at work and rushing, was that if you are doing a paper or any piece of research, I'd say that you should take the evidence from where ever it comes and discuss and assess it clearly. Not just take the stuff that suits your particular viewpoint. That's the impression that you gave me. Sorry if I'm mistaken but that's the impression I got.

IMDB has faults but it is a huge survey that has to be considered. Far more reliable than a poll on the raider which you rely upon. If you look at the box office for CS it comes in around 126 I think on the US all time chart (that's the adjusted list taking into account ticket prices). Now, that's below crud like Meet the Fokers.

I don't expect you to agree with me but as someone who deals with evidence on a day to day basis for the last 25 years, I would merely wish to make the point that your argument would be a lot stronger if you looked at the evidence thst doesn't help your point too. I mean that in a helpful way believe it or not :)
 

Dr.Jonesy

Well-known member
I did not omit opposing sources in my paper, believe me. This thread is talking about the success of the film, not the failures. And the reason I started this thread is because the evidence to support the idea that it was a positively received film that achieved a decent level of success far outweighed the contrary.

I felt it was necessary to open a discussion that asserts that the film was more positively received than negatively and that the amount of 'hate' is overblown. I do understand where you're coming from, though.

The reason I put TheRaven poll (which there are a few more, as well) was to show the hardcore fanbase opinion. Does this encompass the entire fanbase? No. But the diehards here gave their opinion and I doubt it'd be much different if every hardcore fan was asked based on that overwhelming positive result. If the poll was the opposite, I guarantee you every disliker on this forum would parade that around and nobody would discredit that poll number.
 

Djd1

New member
I find the raven poll very interesting simply because it seems so at odds with views expressed on COW and other fan groups. But hey, we're obviously not going to agree on this or the way you've chosen to present your research.
 

Dr.Jonesy

Well-known member
Djd1 said:
I find the raven poll very interesting simply because it seems so at odds with views expressed on COW and other fan groups. But hey, we're obviously not going to agree on this or the way you've chosen to present your research.

If you're talking about the Club Obi Wan forum, then there is mostly positivity there for KOTCS...I'm on there right now as a matter of fact.
 

Djd1

New member
Well times have certainly changed then! Yes COW - club obi wan.

I'm not sure what you want me to say? I don't like the film and I've not met anyone who does. I can't really do much about that can I? Does that make me a 'hater'? That's such a fan-boy word isn't it? I don't like the film. I dont think the script works. There are a lot of good actors who are totally wasted in it. The stunts are so polluted with cgi as to be meaningless. The story is unintersting and even John Williams' score is not memorable. Now, that dosent make me a 'hater' it makes me a reasoning human being who loves film but just can't find much to like in this one- despite desperately wanting to. I've apologised if I was overly short with you earlier but you seem intent on being angry.
 

Dr.Jonesy

Well-known member
Djd1 said:
Well times have certainly changed then! Yes COW - club obi wan.

I'm not sure what you want me to say? I don't like the film and I've not met anyone who does. I can't really do much about that can I? Does that make me a 'hater'? That's such a fan-boy word isn't it? I don't like the film. I dont think the script works. There are a lot of good actors who are totally wasted in it. The stunts are so polluted with cgi as to be meaningless. The story is unintersting and even John Williams' score is not memorable. Now, that dosent make me a 'hater' it makes me a reasoning human being who loves film but just can't find much to like in this one- despite desperately wanting to. I've apologised if I was overly short with you earlier but you seem intent on being angry.

That surprises me. Even the worst films of all time, I've met someone in my life who has said 'Yup, I love it!'

I can only speak for myself and I've lived in two parts of the country since 2008, and the majority at least liked it. That's all I can speak for.

Who was making you out to be a 'hater'? Not me. As far as you not being sure what I want you to say, who said you had to keep replying? The complaints you have for the film (while not unwarranted) really aren't for this thread, as it is not for that purpose, there are plenty of other critical threads that I've contributed to as well. Not being rude, but I don't want my thread to turn into a 'What worked/didn't work in KOTCS' thread.

I suppose we're at an impasse. I'm saying it was quite positively received, you're saying the opposite. I provided a long list to support that idea, you provided IMDB and anecdotes of personal experience. I guess we'll have to disagree.

I don't mean any harm or malicious intent, dear fellow Indy fan.
:hat:
 

Djd1

New member
No worries then pal. Sorry to derail your thread. My motive was merely that I felt you were being selective with your evidence and that your case would seem stronger if you gave more apparent thought to dealing with the evidence that contradicts your thesis. If youve done that in your actual paper then bravo!

Have a pleasant evening
 

Toht's Arm

Active member
Dr.Jonesy, I raised a similar point in another thread here in the last couple of weeks. Anecdotally, I'd say that the response to Indy IV was mostly negative - going by the people I've spoken to. But when I look at sources on the net, I find it's the opposite (for the reasons you mentioned - box office, critic aggregators and so on).

It does seem to me that the film was more positively than negatively received overall. But then you've got people like Lucas who said recently that if Indy V gets made, more people will be dissatisfied than satisfied.

That being said, I can imagine that a LOT more people will pay attention to the initial reviews if and when Indy V comes out, and base their decision on those. I imagine a lot of the box office for Indy IV could have been courtesy of folks who were desperate to see Indy after so many years of waiting. If they felt they were 'burnt' by the experience, they might be more cautious next time around.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Toht's Arm said:
Dr.Jonesy, I raised a similar point in another thread here in the last couple of weeks. Anecdotally, I'd say that the response to Indy IV was mostly negative - going by the people I've spoken to. But when I look at sources on the net, I find it's the opposite (for the reasons you mentioned - box office, critic aggregators and so on).

It does seem to me that the film was more positively than negatively received overall. But then you've got people like Lucas who said recently that if Indy V gets made, more people will be dissatisfied than satisfied.

It's more likely to be received negatively by long term fans, but not exclusively, of course. Whereas the more casual viewer might accept it as a good action/adventure film because they have nothing invested in the character and therefore fewer demands.

Hence general ratings may be good, but disatisfaction shows most prominently when fans dissect the movie or simply show their disgust.

Lucas' comment could go either way. He could mean he would upset fans by going all out for a general action/adventure, or he could upset the general viewing public by delving more specifically into the character and history of Indy himself.
 

Toht's Arm

Active member
Montana Smith said:
Lucas' comment could go either way. He could mean he would upset fans by going all out for a general action/adventure, or he could upset the general viewing public by delving more specifically into the character and history of Indy himself.

Oh man, you've just managed to RAISE my expectations of Indy V because of that. It never occurred to me that he might do something that obsessives like us like but the general public do not. I'm not sure whether to thank you or not... ;)
 

Dr.Jonesy

Well-known member
Toht's Arm said:
Dr.Jonesy, I raised a similar point in another thread here in the last couple of weeks. Anecdotally, I'd say that the response to Indy IV was mostly negative - going by the people I've spoken to. But when I look at sources on the net, I find it's the opposite (for the reasons you mentioned - box office, critic aggregators and so on).

It does seem to me that the film was more positively than negatively received overall.

Exactly, and I've been saying this for a few years now and I'm sure it's true. Thanks for agreeing, in some capacity!
:hat:

Anecdotally, we can only speak for ourselves. You'll say most people you asked didn't care for it, and I know the people I know loved it. It just depends, I guess. But we're all being truthful here.


Toht's Arm said:
That being said, I can imagine that a LOT more people will pay attention to the initial reviews if and when Indy V comes out, and base their decision on those. I imagine a lot of the box office for Indy IV could have been courtesy of folks who were desperate to see Indy after so many years of waiting. If they felt they were 'burnt' by the experience, they might be more cautious next time around.

Of course, and while KOTCS was positively received for the most part, it of course wasn't 'The Dark Knight' or 'Avengers' status glowing, therefore more people will be less likely to see the sequel in theaters, not because they hated the last one, but because they got their Indy-dose after 20 years already and they can wait if they know it won't blow them away. Demand for an Indy film is depleted since we all got our fix. Any Indy sequel would kill on rental sales, though!
:hat:
 
Things are pretty desparate if you start trying to second guess public opinion to justify whether a film is any good.

I say KOCS sucks (geddit?) big time, but hey, a good barometer would be film critics and hardcore fans.

Critics: Put it this way - Raiders is in most critics 'top action film' lists, whereas KoCS would most likely feature in the top 'worst sequels' list.
Hardcore fans: I dont see many clamouring to place KOCs in the top 3 of the 4 films.
Ergo: It's not very good.

Throw as many stats around as you like , but the film is still gonna be crap whichever way you slice it.
 

Djd1

New member
I think the box office is a telling statistic for the film. Although it did well enough and made a healthy profit on the all time (adjusted) list it comes in at 128. That compares to 92 for crusade, 74 for temple and 19 for raiders. It's trounced by all the (unpopular) star wars prequels, the lowest of which is at 73. It's not a terrible performance but given the level of anticipation there was for the film it has to be seen as disappointing. Phantom Menace comes in at 17 by way of comparison. Just throwing this in there as it makes interesting reading and not trying to start a flame war
 

Darth Vile

New member
Djd1 said:
I think the box office is a telling statistic for the film. Although it did well enough and made a healthy profit on the all time (adjusted) list it comes in at 128. That compares to 92 for crusade, 74 for temple and 19 for raiders. It's trounced by all the (unpopular) star wars prequels, the lowest of which is at 73. It's not a terrible performance but given the level of anticipation there was for the film it has to be seen as disappointing. Phantom Menace comes in at 17 by way of comparison. Just throwing this in there as it makes interesting reading and not trying to start a flame war

I haven't examined your figures so I'm just going off what you state... so if I was to use this as qualitative data then the Star Wars prequels are better and more popular than all Indy sequels??? How many other good movies does The Phantom Menace beat (and I say that as someone who likes the prequels)?
 

Djd1

New member
No - as I said I'm not trying to start an argument (even if you seem to want one ;) ). I'm just looking at the box office as a measure of success. It doesn't equate to quality necessarily but it's a potential way of gauging what the public thought of it and how much they might desire an Indy V
 
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