A little tweak can make a big difference

A_True_Believer

New member
TheMutt92 said:
- the opening sequence is nearly perfect, just have us focus on one of the Russians that catch on fire and have him stumble down at Mac's feet.

- have Marion puch Indy like she did in ROTLA when they first meet again.

Both of these would have been great, especially the first one.

TheMutt92 said:
- a chase w/ Indy and gang vs. Russians on boats would've been nice.

Given the vehicles used, I really thought at least part of the chase would have been on the river. The Lego toy made you think this, too, as it included russian rafts and was even called "River Chase".

TheMutt92 said:
- either have Spalko kill Mac in the alien chamber, or have his actual death be spelled out a little better.

Full agreement here. I think in the novel they explained why Mac was being pulled into the vortex more than Indy: he was drawn to it magnetically from all the gold he was carrying. I think spelling that out in the movie would have been good. It would have tied it in to the magnitism of the skull, as well as emphasize that Mac's greed was his downfall.
 

jazzycmk

New member
This would probably be a major tweak, but I would have switched the timing of the introduction of Marion and Mutt.

Marion goes to Indy early in the film and tells him he has a son, which becomes part of Indy's motivation for the adventure, as well as the Skull. Mutt is then introduced at the Russian camp.

This also re-establishes the relationship with Indy and Marion much sooner, giving more time to their rekindled romance, not making the ending wedding scene feel quite so forced.

Granted, this would lead to changes in a lot of scenes leading up to the Russian camp. You're obviously not going to have the motorcycle chase scene through New Haven, so that would have been overhauled.

In the cemetary scene, I would have then had Indy going solo, similar to the Grail Temple scene in Last Crusade.

Obviously, Shia was one of the big draws of the movie, especially for the younger fans, so they weren't going to hide him for over half the movie, but I still think the above could have worked well.

For the record, still liked the movie as it was done.
 

Walton

New member
It's the little killing things that...um...

Overall, I liked the story. The ant sequence could have been done better or omitted, either way. I've said enough about that here:

http://raven.theraider.net/showthread.php?t=15825

Otherwise, my complaints are:

*Indy should have been pro-active from the start. Archeology is his passion. It's what drives him. I know Spalko's people pulled him off a dig, but he should have been at Hangar 51 for his own reasons, like through contacts in the military, he's located the Ark of the Covenant..and the Russians crash his raid looking for their own objectives. I know, there are treacherous implications to Indy breaking into a top secret U.S. military installation for his own reasons, but a good writer can couch it in his character easily enough. It only seems right to me that Indiana Jones ought somehow to end up with the Ark after all this time, sort of a full circle from the end of Raiders, even if only to pass it on to a museum. As is, he didn't even set his eyes on it.

*Nuke test sequence. Not essential to the plot. I like the imagery of two giants sizing each other up. Indy and the fiery cloud. But for the pace of the story...filler and fluff. Special Edition DVD "restored footage" material.

*There's already a real-life legend that at humanity's darkest hour 13 Crystal Skulls (of which Mitchell-Hedges is believed to be one) will be discovered and will rescue the world. A perfectly earth-bound story that preserves a mythology and even perpetuates it without crossing into the realm of science fiction a la Stargate. There's plenty of story in the legend, plenty of directions to take it. Do the skulls view good and evil as we do? Nation by nation, people by people, we already have so many fractured views of right and wrong...how would the Skulls determine who needs rescuing from whom? Or from what? Do we really want to risk being judged by the Skulls' standards of good and evil?

*Mac. Too potentially cool a character to flip-flop around. He was so lukewarm that I either wanted to care but couldn't or wanted to hate him but didn't feel justified enough to. He should have been a dirty traitor that Indy loathed who met his doom in such a way that we're all glad he's gone or a genuine friend that perhaps proved it in self-sacrifice (or lives on to return in a future adventure). We never got to see him be anything but spinelessly indecisive and a backstabber with a blade too short to break the skin. (Oh...and he straight-up told the camera, "This is very dangerous," as they struggled not to fall off of the very dangerous cliff. My bad. I missed one.)

*Harold Oxley. He should have been faking his insanity. He's a genius who wrote a riddle in a dead language. It would have been a perfect development of his character against Indy's, "And you are never this interesting." He and Indy could have had some good dialog moments back and forth about the Skulls or whatever, they've been friends for so long. We should have seen Indy running with his own outlaw pack of archaeologists...a brand that are neither competitors nor enemies. The different but same/same but different thing without a repeat of Rene Belloq (much as that character was a perfect foil for Indy). As is, Indy got to welcome Ox back minutes before the tale ended. And then the tale ended.

Again, overall, I like the story. But there are times...
 

Zealot

New member
You know what is sad? No mather how cool and great some of our tweaks are, the movie has already been made so none of this will matter. Ever. :(
 

Walton

New member
Zealot said:
You know what is sad? No mather how cool and great some of our tweaks are, the movie has already been made so none of this will matter. Ever. :(

True. It won't change what was...but it can affect what will be. Action scenes should accelerate the story. Exposition should slow things down but keep it moving forward. FX sequences should enhance a moment, not detract, not pull the audience out of the story.

We've lived. Have we learned?
 

Zealot

New member
Walton said:
True. It won't change what was...but it can affect what will be. Action scenes should accelerate the story. Exposition should slow things down but keep it moving forward. FX sequences should enhance a moment, not detract, not pull the audience out of the story.

We've lived. Have we learned?

I really doubt that Lucas or Spielberg will ever read this. And even if they do, who can guarantee us that they will listen?
 

Indie House

New member
Just a small one, but Indy's 'bumble-mumble' gesture to Mutt just before he was scooped into the vines would have been better replaced with a 'lookout kid' or a 'duck'!

:hat:
 

Walton

New member
Zealot said:
I really doubt that Lucas or Spielberg will ever read this. And even if they do, who can guarantee us that they will listen?

Again, true enough. But I also imagine there to be next-gen filmmakers who are still learning the ropes of what works and what doesn't. GL and SS aren't the only great minds out there. And they'll have to hand their empires over to someone or let them go the way we all must go.
 

IndyJr.

New member
I've yet to see the entire film (sadly, I would really like to, but economically I'm a bit pressed), but I did manage to see bits and pieces online, one being the sandpit scene, with the quicksand. I noticed there were subtitles underneath. I believe they were Spanish. Well in that version Indy made a comment along the lines of "My whip is at the camp!"

I do remember hearing that and at that moment looking at his belt and seeing him not have a whip.
 

Niteshade007

New member
Since this is limited to editing room stuff, I would cut the Doom Town sequence completely. I don't really think it adds anything to the plot, and it drags the beginning on a bit. I didn't care for it. That being said, it would make it difficult to then show Indy being interrogated by the agents, but I'm sure that they could think of someway to smooth the transition.

I suppose that's a pretty major tweak, but it could feasibly be done.
 

blueseattle

New member
I still feel the best thing to cut from this movie would have been the fridge scene. Just have the fight with Dovchenko longer, with Indy wrapping the chain around him and kicking him up, just as the rocket sled shoots off... cue Indy theme as it rockets across Nevada.. ends with Indy waking up to American soldiers and weapons... go to interrogation... go to campus.

Killing Mac through Spalko would have been the best idea, actually, and now that someone here mentioned that, I'll never get that idea out of my head.
 

mutt willams

New member
A_True_Believer said:
I was recently reminded of those Scion commercials that talk about how a small change can have a huge impact (Horse --> Unicorn, or "1-800" --> "1-900"). If you're not familiar with them, that's okay. My point is it got me thinking about what little tweaks could be made to Indy 4 that would make a big difference.

Let me start off by saying I liked Indy 4. I'm not talking about changing the entire film here, but literally seconds here and there; bits that though short would greatly improve the movie. Here's my list:

- In the fridge scene, I would remove the few seconds we see it bouncing along the ground. That's what made it unbelievable for me. If they had faded from the russian car being overtaken to a dense dust cloud, then panned over to the fridge already settled on the ground, I think it would have been more plausible. It's sort of like in LC when Indy climbs up the roots after the tank goes over the cliff. By not seeing exactly how it happened, we can rationalize it in our imagination.

- In the sanitarium, when Indy says the drawing on the floor is of the cemetary, it's not really clear how he knows that. I would have added a quick line where he says it matches some description or drawing in Oxley's letter.

- In the end of the cemetary fight, besides adding back in the cut bit with the whip, I also would have rather seen Indy shoot the last warrior instead of just scaring him off. I think it would have added a nice punch to the end of the fight.

- In the russian camp, when Mutt is being threatened, and when Indy and Marion are arguing, if you look at Spalko she has a rather amused expression on her face. I think it would have been neat if they cut to Spalko briefly to emphasize that even she found the exchange funny.

- During the sand pit scene, it would have been nice if they mentioned why Indy didn't just use his whip to get out. Just one line like "I could use my whip if the damn Russians hadn't taken it!" would have helped fill in that plot hole.

- When Indy takes control of the truck at the start of the jungle chase, it would have been nice to actually see the fight instead of just watching Marion and Mutt getting tossed around in the back. I envisioned seeing the driver, then seeing Indy's arms descend from above, grab him under the chin, and throw him to the side.

- The vine swinging was cheesy, but what put it over the edge for me was seeing Mutt so smoothly transfer from one vine to another in mid-swing. If they had showed him more clumsily swinging from tree to tree it would have been much more tolerable.

- I would have focused on Indy's face for a moment when he was driving along the cliff edge just before Mutt swung in to save the day. Just a brief glimpse of that classic, hopeless, "Oh crap I'm going to die" look before he was rescued would have been great.

- When the duck went over the last waterfall, I would have liked to see them drag out the approach a bit and maybe add in some suspenseful music that built up to when they went over the edge. Then, I would have had the camera linger on the water at the bottom of the falls for a few seconds just to build up tension before seeing them bob to the surface one by one.

- I liked the Ugha warriors, but seeing them break out of the walls made no sense at all. I think seeing them crawl and slither out of concealed holes and cracks in the wall would have been more believable, as well as creepier.

- When the group finally got to Akator, I think there should have been a few seconds to allow them to take in the sight of the lost city before the Ugha started chasing them. This was their goal for the whole movie. Seeing it for the first time should have had a major emotional impact, with looks of awe and swelling music, like when they first see the Grail temple in LC.

- When they fell onto the spiral staircase, I wouldn't have had the trap spring right away. I would have added a few seconds so they could take in how high they were and see the bed of spikes in the water below. I think establishing the danger first would have greatly improved this scene. Then, as they got to their feet, one of them could have accidently sprung the trap.

What little tweaks would you make?

you seem to expect alot.....
 

mutt willams

New member
A_True_Believer said:
I'm not sure what you mean. I'm not expecting anything, and I still really enjoyed the movie. Such things are just fun to discuss, at least for me.

im sorry if i offened you (pun intended)
 

mutt willams

New member
look at his avatar, remeber where the marahaj spoke up and said some stuff, and indy said im sorry if i offended you, i guess it wasnt that funy
 

A_True_Believer

New member
mutt willams said:
look at his avatar, remeber where the marahaj spoke up and said some stuff, and indy said im sorry if i offended you, i guess it wasnt that funy

Nah, it was funny. I just didn't make the connection at first. I'd love to respond. Unfortunately, the Maharajah doesn't say anything after that. :)

Major West said:
Fans meddling with films should outlawed quite frankly.

I totally agree. If you ever catch me breaking into Spielberg's editing room to hack up the footage of Indy 5, lock me up. :p

Fans discussing films in a civil manner, however, is fine.
 

MaxPhactor23

New member
blueseattle said:
Killing Mac through Spalko would have been the best idea, actually, and now that someone here mentioned that, I'll never get that idea out of my head.

Thank you. Thank you!
 

jdm_jib

New member
I would change the monkey/tarzan scene so that when Mutt is in the trees, he see's the action in the distance, then see's the monkeys, in particular, a monkey swing on a vine. Then the camera does a close-up shot of his face to see him to an 'indy-like' side of the mouth smerk/smile and then cut back to the action where after a while, mutt swings in on a vine.

It wouldnt take much to put it like this and i think it would really tidy-up that scene by getting rid of the CGI vine swinging and a good few seconds of the monkeys crouding round him while adding a bit of supprise and comedy to the sequence. Not to mention making it feel alittle less childish.
 
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