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Old 05-20-2011, 09:12 AM   #26
Goodeknight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMutt92
It is possible for Mola Ram to be under the black sleep and to also be in control. My explanation would be just that he's been under it long enough that it is who he is, and not the zombie state Indy is in.

That's pretty much what I'm saying. He started out under the black sleep, got all the brainwashing he needed, and was turned to the dark side, pretty much permanently. Maybe he takes a few sips now and again for kicks, but it's not the main reason he's a baddie. He's been turned. He just has a brief glimpse of reality just before he falls.
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Old 05-20-2011, 01:46 PM   #27
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I have always looked at it as the bad guys are just that..... Bad Guys. And they use the blood on unwilling participants who get in the way. I'm sure the novel says otherwise. I haven't read it since Doom was in theaters. Me though, I like to think that at least Mola Ram and Lal are just some bad dudes with some serious anger issues.


As far as Shorty, I always got the impression the children were used as slaves until old enough to become useful followers. The maharajah needed to be controlled so was turned at a early age.
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Old 05-20-2011, 03:03 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Henry W Jones
I have always looked at it as the bad guys are just that..... Bad Guys. And they use the blood on unwilling participants who get in the way. I'm sure the novel says otherwise. I haven't read it since Doom was in theaters. Me though, I like to think that at least Mola Ram and Lal are just some bad dudes with some serious anger issues.


As far as Shorty, I always got the impression the children were used as slaves until old enough to become useful followers. The maharajah needed to be controlled so was turned at a early age.

I look at it that way to. I don't think Mola Ram and Chatter Lal were brainwashed. I see Chatter Lal as using the thuggee as a way to through off the yoke of British Imperialism in India. Mola Ram is like any other power hungry cult leader. In order to make people join the cult against their will they use the black sleep of Kali Ma.
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Old 04-11-2012, 02:50 PM   #29
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BUMP.
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Originally Posted by chr0n0naut
I've just read the novelisation of ToD and it descibes Mola Ram as "looking as though he'd just come out of a nightmare" a second before he plummets to his death (after his hand is burned with the final Shankara stone). Indy even feels sorry for him.
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Originally Posted by Mickiana
I believe Mola Ram was under the black sleep of the Kali. But it seems that when he got burned by the Sankara stone he came out of the sleep, but then unfortunately fell to his death.
I totally disagree with this point of view for a reason nobody has mentioned thus far. Mola Ram doesn't snap back to reality while holding the flaming heart (and in the wide shot, there is a lot of flame). Surely, that would have woken him up!
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Old 04-11-2012, 03:40 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Stoo
BUMP.

I totally disagree with this point of view for a reason nobody has mentioned thus far. Mola Ram doesn't snap back to reality while holding the flaming heart (and in the wide shot, there is a lot of flame). Surely, that would have woken him up!

Damn good point, Stoo! But perhaps the same 'power' that granted him the ability to extract hearts also protected him from said magical flame?
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Old 04-11-2012, 11:17 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by The Drifter
Damn good point, Stoo! But perhaps the same 'power' that granted him the ability to extract hearts also protected him from said magical flame?
that is what i thought , mola ram is magical !!!! wooooo !
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Old 04-12-2012, 09:56 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by The Drifter
Damn good point, Stoo! But perhaps the same 'power' that granted him the ability to extract hearts also protected him from said magical flame?
Or perhaps Mola wasn't under the Black Sleep at all. That is a much simpler explanation and it makes more sense (despite what is written in the novel about him waking up from a nightmare when being burned by the stone).

I can appreciate the fact that the authour, James Kahn, tried to inject/suggest something deeper into Mola Ram's character but it's possible that he didn't really think it through or didn't realize how much flame the burning heart would produce in the finished film. (I would check the novel to see how he wrote the sacrifice scene but don't have it with me at the moment.)
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Old 04-12-2012, 10:23 PM   #33
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In the novel it is described just as it was in the movie "Mola Ram held the heart high: still beating, dripping blood, it began to smoke. Then it, too, burst into flame. And then it disappeared." I just read the book to my daughter as her bed-time story. She loved it.
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Old 04-13-2012, 08:49 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Stoo
I can appreciate the fact that the authour, James Kahn, tried to inject/suggest something deeper into Mola Ram's character but [..]

The kicker here is that it's not an invention of the adaptations, but something Huyck and Katz inserted into the actual screenplay!

Quote:
The blazing stones sear Mola Ram's flesh and he screams in pain. The light suddenly dies in his eyes and for one instant he looks at Indy as if awakened from a nightmare --

Mola Ram loses his balance and Indy grabs for the stones. He manages to clutch only one of them as Mola Ram screams and falls!

The idea isn't really underlined on the screen, leaving it up for the viewer to decide. Making Mola Ram and/or Chatter Lal the inherently evil machinator gives you a clear villain to root against that the alternative robs you of, but, that alternative also deepens the subject matter a bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiana
I believe Mola Ram was under the black sleep of the Kali. But it seems that when he got burned by the Sankara stone he came out of the sleep, but then unfortunately fell to his death. A classic tale of tragedy. He brought about his own downfall, in this case, literally. Tragedy is also about avoiding redemption, hence he meets his doom even after he is released from the evil spell of the Kali. I will go as far as theorising that the same thing happened to the giant thugee guard. When Indy wacks him with a saw, the big fella drops the rock on his own head and this appears to wake him from his sleep. Fire may not be the only trauma that can do this. Unfortunately, by this time his sash has been snagged by the rock crusher and he has to carry on the path that he decided on - to his doom and paying for his evil ways with his life. These tales of tragedy seem to me to be the center point of the whole story while Indy is almost an unwitting pawn being thrown around in a game. Of course he has his own motivations and creates many consequences through his actions.

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Originally Posted by Mickiana
That's a point, but we don't know if they willingly drank the blood or were forced to. In the end, I think the whole being under the spell of the kali is a metaphor for having given up choice, or at least thinking there wasn't any choice left open to them. Who was the first to drink the blood of the Kali? Was it deliberate or unwitting? I will wager that it was a choice to go down a certain path, at least in its origins. People under the spell of the kali are like zombies and zombies are people who are largely unconscious, who have become automatons of their own desires or someone else's.

I really like your subtextual take on it!
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Old 04-13-2012, 05:13 PM   #35
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Thanks. Rereading those posts I would like to elaborate. The zombie-like state is akin to a homicidal psychopathy, especially in Mola Ram. However the blood of Kali works, it effects are to drastically narrow the range of emotions to hate, anger, glee and there is a great lust for power also. Mola Ram verbalises his intentions well, obviously has intelligence and he is very charismatic having all the hallmarks of a typical cult leader. He seeks power for power's sake.
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Old 04-13-2012, 07:04 PM   #36
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The immediate question that springs to mind is, if Mola Ram himself is under the influence of the 'black sleep', how come he's so articulate and erudite when the rest act like zombies?
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Old 04-13-2012, 09:46 PM   #37
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Good question, Darth. Mola Ram didn't have the glazed eyed robotic thing happening, but then again neither did the guards. So it does call into question who was actually under the influence of the blood of Kali. Possibly Mola Ram, Chattar Lal and others were evil controllers who used the blood of Kali to spell bind others. But that doesn't gel either. The young prince was under the spell of the blood of Kali, yet he seemed to have all his wits about him. Maybe these nit pickings would require a subtler script unsuitable for B grade ol' ToD?!
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Old 04-13-2012, 10:34 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoo
Or perhaps Mola wasn't under the Black Sleep at all. That is a much simpler explanation and it makes more sense (despite what is written in the novel about him waking up from a nightmare when being burned by the stone).

Maybe he was so in deep he had to be burned by Shiva. The reveal's not in Weyn's 2008 novel anyway.

Spielberg said that he injected humour to combat the dark tone of the film, I wonder if the Black Sleep'd Mola Ram was removed for the same reason.
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Old 04-14-2012, 12:18 AM   #39
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Mola Ram was the chief villain, not a mere enslaved minion. He was evil sorceror to Marhan's good wizard, and powerful enough to defeat him and curse the village.

Mola knew what he was doing. His intent was to discover the missing Lingam. For that he required slaves for the mines and enslaved soldiers to enforce his will. The Black Sleep was simply a method of creating loyalty.

Hence Mola is dominant and fully aware, while Indy, the 'great white hero' becomes subservient and without free will.
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Old 04-14-2012, 02:31 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by lndianaJones
In the novel it is described just as it was in the movie "Mola Ram held the heart high: still beating, dripping blood, it began to smoke. Then it, too, burst into flame. And then it disappeared." I just read the book to my daughter as her bed-time story. She loved it.

Your relation gives "heart-warming" a whole new meaning!
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Old 04-14-2012, 02:42 PM   #41
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Old 04-14-2012, 05:31 PM   #42
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James Kahn's novelisation clearly has Mola Ram being woken from the black sleep by holding one of the stones which burns him, yet a moment later when Indy grabs it it doesn't burn him, in fact it was cool to touch. The burning that Mola Ram felt was the magic of the rock affecting him. Indy's incantations which made the rocks glow must have powered them up and maybe this is what was needed for someone as evil as Mola Ram to wake up from the Black Sleep. Perhaps he was deepest in it of all and normal fire couldn't affect him, only the stones which he sought so much could restore him and thus were actually imparting a type of salvation as fleeting as it was?
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Old 04-14-2012, 10:11 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiana
James Kahn's novelisation clearly has Mola Ram being woken from the black sleep by holding one of the stones which burns him, yet a moment later when Indy grabs it it doesn't burn him, in fact it was cool to touch. The burning that Mola Ram felt was the magic of the rock affecting him. Indy's incantations which made the rocks glow must have powered them up and maybe this is what was needed for someone as evil as Mola Ram to wake up from the Black Sleep. Perhaps he was deepest in it of all and normal fire couldn't affect him, only the stones which he sought so much could restore him and thus were actually imparting a type of salvation as fleeting as it was?

Though there's really no point to Mola being under the same spell. He's the prime mover with the vision, so he needs a clear head.

I mean, who would put him under?

Chattar Lal? The real power behind the throne?

Or was it all just another jolly jape by the aliens of KOTCS? That constant deus ex machina that Lucas has been sneaking in under Spielberg's nose?
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Old 04-14-2012, 11:38 PM   #44
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I know what you mean, Montana. Where does the conspiracy begin? It might be that Chattar Lal had a senior position in the ol' Kali Corporation. The young Prince Maharaja is obviously the token figurehead for the above ground management while Mola Ram oversees the subterranean operations. Yes, Chattar does now look more and more like the conniving politician in the organisation, hovering over all.

But as for who drank the Blood first? Mola might have annointed himself or maybe not. He might have started out a bit bad and with a bit of coercion from Chattar Bug (he had the gift of the gab) they drank together, their arms interlocked in a bonding brotherhood supping simultaneously and heartily on their bloody steins!
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Old 04-15-2012, 12:19 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Mickiana
I know what you mean, Montana. Where does the conspiracy begin? It might be that Chattar Lal had a senior position in the ol' Kali Corporation. The young Prince Maharaja is obviously the token figurehead for the above ground management while Mola Ram oversees the subterranean operations. Yes, Chattar does now look more and more like the conniving politician in the organisation, hovering over all.

But as for who drank the Blood first? Mola might have annointed himself or maybe not. He might have started out a bit bad and with a bit of coercion from Chattar Bug (he had the gift of the gab) they drank together, their arms interlocked in a bonding brotherhood supping simultaneously and heartily on their bloody steins!

While James Kahn added a lot of good background to Temple of Doom, I think he might have mis-read the Mola situation.

I still believe Mola to be the chief villain, and therefore in no need of drugging himself. Being under the Black Sleep is clearly a mind-altering experience, which places the individual under the will of another. There's a chance that Mola is acting under the will of Chattar, just as the Thuggee are acting under the will of Mola. However, being a pulp tale there should be nothing like that left open to question. All main characters would therefore be clearly defined, and unamibiguous by the time the story ends.

As I set out in the Cliffhangers thread, TOD looks to be inspired by the 1941 serial Jungle Girl. I would argue that Shamba the witch doctor is the archetype for Mola, as a character capable of supernatural ability who employs voodoo to control events.





In TOD Chattar Lal also doesn't appear to be under the Black Sleep, but he is, as you wrote, a "conniving politician in the organisation". He's a clear headed invidual keeping an eye on events above ground, guiding the drugged Maharaja.
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Old 04-15-2012, 12:44 AM   #46
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Kahn was just going by the screenplay which originally had Mola Ram "as if awakened from a nightmare."

If Chattar Lal was supposed to be the mastermind, they wouldn't have killed him off before Ram.
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Old 04-18-2012, 02:42 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by IndianaJones
In the novel it is described just as it was in the movie "Mola Ram held the heart high: still beating, dripping blood, it began to smoke. Then it, too, burst into flame. And then it disappeared." I just read the book to my daughter as her bed-time story. She loved it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Udvarnoky
Your relation gives "heart-warming" a whole new meaning!
HA! Good one, Udvarnoky!

Thanks for quoting the description in the novel, IndianaJones. (By the way, are you really Indiana Jones, himself?) So, according to the novel, the flaming heart doesn't wake up Mola Ram but the burning stone does.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Udvarnoky
The kicker here is that it's not an invention of the adaptations, but something Huyck and Katz inserted into the actual screenplay!

The idea isn't really underlined on the screen, leaving it up for the viewer to decide. Making Mola Ram and/or Chatter Lal the inherently evil machinator gives you a clear villain to root against that the alternative robs you of, but, that alternative also deepens the subject matter a bit.
Thanks for pointing that out, Udvarnoky. (I just checked and the same thing is also in an earlier draft.) So Huyck & Katz suggest in the screenplays that Mola was under the Black Sleep even though it's not evident in the film. Very interesting...

Everyone (Montana, Mickiana, Darth Vile and Lao_Che) has brought up some excellent points & questions. Here is a general address to them all:

1) In the holding cell, the kid, Nainsukh, says, "We become like them." Who is "them"? The slave children? The guards? If the children were all under the spell, then each one of them would've had to be burned before they gleefully escaped to freedom, which was CLEARLY not the case.

2) Some or all of the guards must have been under the influence because (in a deleted scene) Shorty burns one and releases him from the "nightmare". (That's how he discovers the trick to 'wake up' Indy.) The guards did not act like zombies.

3) Perhaps drinkers of the blood built up a tolerance to the drug? This would explain why Indy was in a zombie-like state and Mola Ram & others weren't. First-time users would be affected much more severely than those who had been consuming it for long periods of time (as drug use does in the 'real world').

Taking everything into account, the Black Sleep aspect is quite inconsistent.

Last edited by Stoo : 04-18-2012 at 02:54 AM.
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Old 04-18-2012, 03:55 AM   #48
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Stoo, your last sentence sums up the main problem. The examples of the Black Sleep are inconsistent. The thing is we don't know the origins of the Black Sleep and whether the use of the Blood of Kali was applicable to all. Who was the first to invoke these powers of Black Magic? When I think of Mola Ram, I am reminded of that scene from 1984 when Winston is being held in a cell in the Ministry of Love and O'Brien walks in. Surprised, he exclaims, "They've got you too?!" "O'Brien responds with a mild, almost regretful irony, "They got me a long time ago."
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Old 04-19-2012, 12:21 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Stoo
HA! Good one, Udvarnoky!

Thanks for quoting the description in the novel, IndianaJones. (By the way, are you really Indiana Jones, himself?) So, according to the novel, the flaming heart doesn't wake up Mola Ram but the burning stone does.

If he's the real Indy, I wanna know what his daughter's name is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoo
3) Perhaps drinkers of the blood built up a tolerance to the drug? This would explain why Indy was in a zombie-like state and Mola Ram & others weren't. First-time users would be affected much more severely than those who had been consuming it for long periods of time (as drug use does in the 'real world').

Taking everything into account, the Black Sleep aspect is quite inconsistent.

Of course, Mola Ram wasn't fazed when Indy feigned wanting to kill Short Round himself...
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Old 04-19-2012, 06:19 PM   #50
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[quote=Lao_Che]If he's the real Indy, I wanna know what his daughter's name is.



Nice try Lao Che!
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