Exactly what I was trying to say, Montana. You just said it better!
Thanks, Marshall.
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Originally Posted by Marshall2288
After the botched attempt to get the Ark I bet Hitler was not a happy camper with Renee and the kind of wreckless people he chose to put in charge and decided instead to go with a more "sophisticated" individual to recover the Grail and not some treasure hunter like before.
There were, however, similarities between Belloq and Donovan. The former was an esteemed locator of artifacts, and Donovan seems to be a renowned collector of artifacts.
There's also the international element. The globetrotting Indiana Jones that drew inspiration from Bond. Hitler chose a Frenchman to find the Ark, and an American and a fellow Austrian to find the Grail.
I like the idea of Donovan being somebody who'd be defined as a Fifth Columnist. In both Raiders and TLC Lucas and Spielberg played with the obvious and the more subtle.
While Toht was a stereotypical Gestapo agent, the personification of evil, Dietrich and his men were regular Army.
Donovan's allegiance was identified only on the occasions when he wore his Party badge. Vogel, however, was prominent with his armband, and even his troops were wearing armbands in the desert (on Army uniforms - hinting at a shortage of SS tropical shirts! Armbands being worn in combat only in comic-book tales to depict the enemy in no uncertain terms).
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Originally Posted by foreverwingnut
I was just about to respond to the question posed by Raiders122390 when I saw you'd beaten me to it, MontanaSmith. I enjoy reading your comments, Montey. Whether we agree or disagree, you're someone who is well-read and honest and you certainly have my ear.
Thanks, 'wingnut.
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Originally Posted by foreverwingnut
Besides, once Adolph Hitler made an appearance, all the other LC villains seemed like Hello Kitty characters any way!
That's true. Once the devil himself appears all his little hangers-on fade into the background!
Location: Neuchâtel, Switzerland (Canadian from Montreal)
Posts: 6,947
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
Lots of Americans were Nazi Party supporters. Not only those of German heritage, but industrialists and capitalists who saw Hitler as a bulwark against Communism and something of a modernizing influence. People like Walt Disney, Henry Ford, Prescott Bush. Some might have been naive, or just ignorant of the truth of the actions of the Nazi Party and Hitler's intentions in the 1930s, while others were purely opportunist or shared Hitler's beliefs.
As a further matter of interest, Donovan's apartment was in New York City. The Nazi sympathizers of the 1930s German American Bund held rallies and parades in New York City (and the group was based in & around New York state).
I liked him. It is interesting to note even on the movie poster for Last Crusade, Donovan doesn't even feature, they have Elsa and the colonel from the tank on it instead.
If you think about it Last Crusade has no "real" antagonist, it is mainly Donovan and Elsa but neither are conventional. Elsa as we all know is a two timer and wants the prize for herself and takes assertive action. Donovan sits back, lets others do the work or him and it isn't until the end once everyone gets him to his location that he shows how cold and evil he can be. He shoots Henry. Elsa even though she is after the Grail and can't be trusted shows genuine upset and she isn't bad deep down, just blinded.
I think he is a believable enemy, not all have to be cape wearing evil "mwahaha!" styled laughing bad-guys.
Even though he isn't on the movie poster, I still consider him the main one though, because he gets the most unpleasant and nasty death.
Lots of Americans were Nazi Party supporters. Not only those of German heritage, but industrialists and capitalists who saw Hitler as a bulwark against Communism and something of a modernizing influence. People like Walt Disney, Henry Ford, Prescott Bush. Some might have been naive, or just ignorant of the truth of the actions of the Nazi Party and Hitler's intentions in the 1930s, while others were purely opportunist or shared Hitler's beliefs.
Rubbish, Disney was no Nazi. He only dealt with talent or business opportunities. I doubt he was a Holocaust supporter.
Disney biographer Neal Gabler, the first writer to gain unrestricted access to the Disney archives, concluded in 2006 that available evidence does not support such accusations. In a CBS interview Gabler summarized his findings:
“ That's one of the questions everybody asks me... My answer to that is, not in the conventional sense that we think of someone as being an antisemite. But he got the reputation because, in the 1940s, he got himself allied with a group called the Motion Picture Alliance for the Preservation of American Ideals, which was an anti-Communist and antisemitic organization. And though Walt himself, in my estimation, was not antisemitic, nevertheless, he willingly allied himself with people who were antisemitic, and that reputation stuck. He was never really able to expunge it throughout his life.''
Last edited by Raiders112390 : 05-27-2012 at 12:07 PM.
Rubbish, Disney was no Nazi. He only dealt with talent or business opportunities. I doubt he was a Holocaust supporter.
What's "holocaust supporter" got to do with it? I never wrote that any of those people were anti-semitic.
In the 1930s Hitler was keen on keeping the darker side of his politics in check. Hence his fears for the 1936 Summer and Winter Olympics: anti-semitic posters were removed, and people were warned to be on their best behaviour considering that visitors from many countries would be coming to Germany. There was even a fear that darker-skinned Spaniards might be racially abused.
Supporting Hitler is not equivalent to supporting anti-semitism. People backed him for other reasons: industrial relations; modernization; defence against Soviet Communism, and so on. (It's the latter that appears in the piece you quoted).
I used my words carefully:
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Lots of Americans were Nazi Party supporters.
It didn't mean they supported every single thing the Party stood for. Sometimes a choice is perceived to be the lesser of two evils. (In 1945 Himmler seriously believed that America and Britain would permit him to take charge of the German forces, in order that Germany could assist in halting the Soviet advance westward).
Location: Neuchâtel, Switzerland (Canadian from Montreal)
Posts: 6,947
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
Rubbish, Disney was no Nazi. He only dealt with talent or business opportunities. I doubt he was a Holocaust supporter.
Smiffy (Montana) is correct on all counts and the interview excerpt that you posted reinforces the fact.
Getting back to Donovan: Just because he was a member of the Nazi party doesn't automatically make him an anti-semite either. He was an extremely rich industrialist whose rationale for joining the Nazis was, very likely, for all the reasons Montana mentioned above.
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Originally Posted by Montana Smith
It's evident from a quick internet search that the mere mention of 'American Nazi supporters' causes anger (as if they didn't exist).
Only naive folk would think that they didn't exist or that "Nazi supporter" = anti-semite (in the same fashion as those who ignorantly believe that ‘any German in WW2 military uniform’ = Nazi.)
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Originally Posted by Montana Smith
I see Donovan as one of the first 100,000 members of the Nazi Party:
Unless Donovan lived in Germany c.1920, it’s not likely that he was one of the first 100,000 Nazi party members. Giving him the gold version of the badge could have been oversight by the costume department.
Unless Donovan lived in Germany c.1920, it’s not likely that he was one of the first 100,000 Nazi party members. Giving him the gold version of the badge could have been oversight by the costume department.
The Party badge is suprising to begin with, let alone a gold one.
Toht's and Vogel's badges were also gold, so it may have been something the props department had at hand.
By his surname I've always had the impression Donovan was of Irish extraction, and not "of pure German blood." I assumed his membership of the National Socialist Party could be accounted for as an homorary award for services rendered. Though, as you wrote, it would mean he'd had a longstanding relationship with the Party.
Donovan was an opportunist who was only interested in himself. He didn't care about Nazis or Elsa or really even the Grail itself. All he wanted was eternal life.
Exactly. He even said something about how the Nazis wanted to rule the world and they could have it, but he'd be toasting his own health when the Nazis had gone "the way of the dodo."
Donovan was probably afraid of death (like almost everyone) and wanted to live forever and wasn't afraid to be evil to do it.
Exactly. He even said something about how the Nazis wanted to rule the world and they could have it, but he'd be toasting his own health when the Nazis had gone "the way of the dodo."
Donovan was probably afraid of death (like almost everyone) and wanted to live forever and wasn't afraid to be evil to do it.
Indeed. Even being a member of the NSDAP didn't necessarily indicate a person's actual attitude towards the Party. Donovan was being pragmatic about the situation.
The Golden Party Badge of the NSDAP was authorized by a Hitler decree of October 13, 1933 to honor those Party Members who, as of November 9, 1933, had a registered membership number under 100,000 - provided their party membership had been active and uninterrupted since the NSDAP's re-founding on February 17, 1925. In fact, the NSDAP had already exceeded membership number 100,000 by December, 1928 (although only about 55,000 had remained with the Party - the rest dropped out for various reasons, including the inability to pay dues during the depression). On November 9, 1933 the Treasury Department of the NSDAP certified only 22,282 of the first 100,000 NSDAP members eligible for the badge. This included 1,795 women.
The first awards were made November 9, 1933, on the 10th anniversary of the Beer Hall Putsch. Award documents show awards were frequently presented on significant dates in the Nazi calendar - Nov. 9, Jan. 30, April 20, etc., as well as throughout the year.
Since people were anxious to get this prestigious award, the bulk of the numbered Golden Party Badges were presented in 1933 and 1934, with relatively few additional ones after that date. This accounts for the consistency in quality of the badges.
A handful of numbered badges were awarded after the initial qualification date. Because the Gold Party Badge was the symbol of the new elite of Nazi Germany - and carried with it certain privileges - there was a rash of people who had held NSDAP membership numbers under 100,000, but had left the Party before 1930. Often they rejoined, but entering the NSDAP with a higher number that did not entitle them to the Gold Party Badge. These people frequently petitioned to have their old party number reinstated, entitling them to the Gold Party Badge, explaining why they left the Party. They often enlisted the help of senior Nazis to lobby on their behalf for their old or a replacement low number.
SPECIAL AWARDS BY HITLER
Hitler reserved the right to award the badge for special recognition of service to the Party or State, and used it politically to bring people into the NSDAP who had otherwise resisted or refused to join. These awards usually took place on the 30th of January of each year to anyone who had demonstrated outstanding service to the Party or State.
Although it was essentially the same badge, it was referred to as the Goldene Ehrenzeichen der NSDAP, or Golden Honor Award of the NSDAP, instead of the "Golden Party Badge". It appears the first honour award was given out in 1935 and continued until 1944. Klaus Patzwall in his book "Das Goldene Parteiabzeichen" (Verlag Klaus D. Patzwall: 2004) counts about 900 awards of this badge, and provides a list of the recipients.
In addition to the numbered Golden Party Badges, Hitler reserved the right to award the same badge for special recognition of service to the Party or State, and used it politically to bring influential people into the NSDAP - some of whom had otherwise resisted or refused to join. Some brave souls in fact did turn down the Golden Party Badge award, including one early Reichs cabinet minister who ended up resigning rather than accept it.
These awards usually took place on the 30th of January of each year to German leaders who had demonstrated outstanding service to the Party or State. Recipients included senior Party officials, officers, senior SS, industrialists and other prominent Germans.
Location: Neuchâtel, Switzerland (Canadian from Montreal)
Posts: 6,947
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
By his surname I've always had the impression Donovan was of Irish extraction, and not "of pure German blood." I assumed his membership of the National Socialist Party could be accounted for as an homorary award for services rendered. Though, as you wrote, it would mean he'd had a longstanding relationship with the Party.
We don't know much about Donovan but I was toying with the idea that he might have anglicized his family name. Perhaps he was formerly a Dahlmann.
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Hitler reserved the right to award the badge for special recognition of service to the Party or State, and used it politically to bring people into the NSDAP who had otherwise resisted or refused to join. These awards usually took place on the 30th of January of each year to anyone who had demonstrated outstanding service to the Party or State.
Although it was essentially the same badge, it was referred to as the Goldene Ehrenzeichen der NSDAP, or Golden Honor Award of the NSDAP, instead of the "Golden Party Badge". It appears the first honour award was given out in 1935 and continued until 1944.
And there we have it! This is the perfect explanation for Donovan's pin.
american have not join the nazi party and theat makes me mad lovie indana jones!
You lovie Dr. Jones long time?
All nations have their dirty laundry, and it's only right it gets aired every now and then.
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American Nazis in the 1930s
The German-American Bund in New Jersey from Click Magazine, 1938
The 1930s Europeans were not alone in their cultivation of Fascist parties; the United States opened a franchise all it's own and the attached article serves to document that sad organization. This article is essentially a photo-essay consisting of twenty-six photographs and a brief explanation regarding Fritz Kuhn, the Friends of New Germany movement and the pathetic goings-on at Camp Nordland in New Jersey:
"The pictures on these pages were not made in Germany. They may look like accurate shots of a foreign political movement, which they are, but they were made right here in these United States. Almost coincidentally with Hitler's assumption of power in the Reich, our free democracy began to feel the long paw of Nazi propaganda..."
Location: Neuchâtel, Switzerland (Canadian from Montreal)
Posts: 6,947
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
All nations have their dirty laundry, and it's only right it gets aired every now and then.
Indeed...and some American members here at The Raven have displayed their anti-Semitism within certain conversations. Without mentioning any names, the following images are dedicated to those particular pin-heads.
Disclaimer: Many of my relatives & friends are American so this is not a criticism of the U.S. in general (past or present). I'm just trying to help Montana Smiffy illustrate how Donovan's sympathy towards a certain cause of the Nazi agenda (industrialization) is a very valid, character-defining aspect of that Grail-grabbing, GOY guy.
P.S. These groups weren't enormously large (as in MILLIONS of active followers). They were a small percentage of the U.S. population.
justin
lovie indana jones!
Without mentioning any names, the following images are dedicated to those particular pin-heads.
